alonso
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Dan Boyle, posting on http://www.politics.ie has just stated
“On Tara stopping already started construction work has proved beyond us. For the record I did not say that I knew that Dick Roche was going to make his decision when he did. What I said was we knew the decision was pending. Our hope was that the decision would be left unmade and considered by John Gormley as the new minister. I have publicly stated that I was unhappy with the way the decision has been made. However I also believe that by being in charge of the departments we are we have the means of influencing the varying or the moving of the road.”
in one of a million threads on the Green government
http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=23338just to clarify: The roads that are to go ahead under the agreement may comprise purely the roads for which contracts have been signed. no-one is sure yet. The M3 is still open for a re-routing in light of recent discoveries anyway.
It’s not at all definite that we will have a Green tinge on our govt. In fact 2 seniors have already rubbished the deal, which is a total shafting of progressive administration in favour of a continuation of FF-right wing-Sue-PD planning and transport policy.
No matter what the Greens do tonight, no matter what roads are built in the future, no matter what M3 is built, the unnecessary destruction of Tara comprises nothing more than state-sponsored vandalism of the most backward, regressive and idiotic kind.
that’s all well and good. Why wasn’t it in the DTI of 1994, the DTO strategy of 2001, or Transport 21 of 2005?
are we gonna be subject to 10 more years of piecmeal transport planning? I’m not gonna criticise this as a stand alone project. i just wish that there was an overarching command structure. Also what about T21 being costed to the exact cent? does that matter at all anymore? Can the RPA now just come out and say they want a LUAS from Naas to Navan? Can Dublin Bus now ask for jetpacks?
i just don’t get it either. I want answers!!!! the luas spur will do exactly what IE want to do. It’s just a vanity project. Anyone on this site working for any of the transport agencies like IE or the RPA who may know what the shit is going on and may covertly wish to enlighten the rest of us through some sort of code?
Christ why do we have the DTO strategy and T21 if IE can just go ahead and do this? Is no-one in charge. I know we’ve had a wee election but why is no central govt representative such as Cullen explaining how this fits in with a plan that sees it as a luas stop only? Madness…
This is T21 from 18 months ago. where is it?
yes it’s the luas stop between liffey junction and O’Connell Street, to serve DIT Grangegorman. Does this mean that the funds for this project will be from outside the T21 €34 billion investment envelope? Can any transport agency apply for more funding beyond T21? Are they just making shit up as they go along? Is this now a higher priority than the interconnector? Did Cullen hope that by doing this we’d forget about the interconnector. Am I being too cynical? Have I asked too many questions?:rolleyes:
that’s the Labour and Green party policy on Local Govt reform. So get out right now and vote for them…
yep and goddammit if only we could build a highway straight through Trinity College as well we’d be grand, and the Eastern bypass over Sandymount. I’m still p1ssed that the Inner Tangent wasn’t finished in the 80’s to get rid of all them ugly inner city residents. And don’t get me started on the Royal Canal motorway. Sue, you’re an insufferable ill-informed hack on transport issues.
A Tory MEP, Roger Helmer, has tabled a question to the European
Parliment as follows:“Is the Commission aware that the Irish Government plan to build the M3
Road through historically significant sites, such as a Henge and Celtic
burial site?Does the Commission have any concerns regarding the environmental
and/or cultural impact of building this road?”At least the British are looking out for our heritage. But why aren’t FF “the Republican” party?
I’m surprised at the blinkered approach being adopted here, and also by the acceptance by people of backward outdated planning principles.
We are debating here “with transport and planning professionals” !! Thank you for allowing us mere mortals to breathe the same air, Alonso. But what, pray tell, are such professionals doing on an architectural website?
What I was trying to get across there was that there are qualified people all over Ireland who oppose the approach the FFPD government has taken in relation to transport planning. The trained professionals are being ignored in favour of short term electoral gain all over the island. It wasn’t my intention to disregard your opinions, You’ve done that yourself. The reason people like me use an architectural website is that town planning, transport planning, architecture and urban design all converge. One of ther greatest failings of the last 50 years has been the inability of people to see the link between the built environment and transport issues, both at a strategic level, and a local level.
not “transport professionals”, who would not, in my experience, oppose a vital motorway in such knee-jerk fashion.
It;s hardly knee-jerk, when you and your colleagues have been saying it for 5 years at least. Anyone who believes the M3 motorway is worthy of the rape of our heritage is not a planner.
Alonso. If I am debating with transport and planning professionals about this project, I imagine it is the transport and planning professionals that have never succeeded in their chosen career. Sometimes you have to put what in theory in an ideal world is maybe right in the back of your head and focus on what is right in this the real world. If you are transport and planning professionals that are writing on this thread well then you ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
I’m proud of the fact that my profession looks for the optimum solution to transport issues. I’m utterly ashamed that supposed Irishmen and women are willing to destroy our history for a road that will do absolutely nothing whatsoever to solve Meath’s or the region’s commuting problems. That’s right. Absolutely nothing. All it will do is bring more cars to the M50 and increase dependence on the private car; a failed mode. You are obviously unaware of the fact that many people in planning and design use this website as a resource and as a place to garner opinions on various issues. The recent JC Decaux scheme is a prime example, for me, of the usefulness of this site for this purpose.
If you think “what is right in the real world” is to repeat the mistakes of the UK, only on a smaller scale, then you are the one that ought to be ashamed, not me, or my colleagues in the design profession.
This road is forward planning. In 10/15 years I expect that this road will have a high capacity of traffic due to urban sprawl and further economic growth in Ireland.
Why do you accept ongoing urban sprawl as an inevitable outcome of economic growth? Are you that blinded by a decade of piss poor governance by the combnined cabbage coalition of Roche, Cullen and Dempsey as the last 3 ministers of the Environment, that you cannot see that there are alternatives to the manner in which our country has been pillaged by development interests? That’s very worrying for us all. You’re just going in completely the wrong direction; the 1950’s predict and provide method, largely, if not univerally discredited today. We should be seeking to minimise private car use.
Look at the m50 as a prime example. In its early planning stages no one foresaw the likelihood of economic and population growth and consequently before the road was officially finished it was too small!!
The M50 is a prime example of nothing more than lack of foresight, bad planning, and a good smattering of political corruption. It was supposed to be a bypass, but instead of consolidating the city into a public transport friendly higher density urban area, politics led to a sprawl beyond the bypass. This is being replicated all over the island as every small town grows out to meet it’s respective ring road. An Bord Pleanala went as far as to issue a press release warning of this danger.
By the way, you say no-one foresaw this problem? In 1985 the M50 was designed with free flow junctions but politicians of the day rejected it and put in traffic lights on roundabouts!!. The massive central median was put in for the exact reason to allow for extra lanes, so this, as you put it, unforeseen demand was in fact designed in by the engineers of the day
And the likely hood of de-zoning?? Not unless the Green Party get into power which is doubtful.
Whatever about the election, de-zoning is currently happening, and I know of one example where a landowner is seeking compensation. Expect this to be replicated in the next Kildare plan.
Overall I don’t want to sound anti-road, though I accept that I may have come across this way. I believe that ALL the major urban centres of Ireland should be connected by Motorway / High Quality Dual Carriageway / Single carriageway 2+1. Safe roads with no lights or towns on the route. I totally reject the current Dublin-centric approach. I reject the manner in which the archaic network has not been questioned. Instead we are merely upgrading the current links from N roads to motorways/ HQDC. I reject the argument that the M1, M2 and M3 are ALL needed. They are not, and never will all be needed. Building a motorway which goes to Navan towards Cavan and Enniskillen is a sick sick joke, given the costs to society in terms of heritage destruction and promotion of unsustainable travel patterns.
The solutions to the Meath commuting nightmare are not to be found on the M3. They are to be found by rezoning land in Navan for industry and Employment. They are to be found by dismissing the NSS, and taking a consolidation approach, ie concentrate a huge chunk of Meath’s growth in Navan, thereby creating the critical mass of people and services to make it as self-sufficient as possible. When all this occurs, there will of course still be a need for some to commute to Dublin. They should be facilitated by rail.
Any remaining car based commuter traffic from Navan to Dublin can be accomodated by building a HQDC to link up with the upgraded N2/M2, currently being discussed anyway as the DOOR project. This will save Tara and this new discovery from obilteration. Anyone who uses the “sure we wouldn’t have found out about this if it wasn’t for the motorway” argument is a complete fool.
It’s urgent that people such as the Green Party and other groups highlight the idiocy of the approach being taken over the last 10 years. Under the guise of the NSS, RPG and the decentralisation fiasco, the people of Ireland are being fed a crock that balanced regional development is occuring. It’s far far from it. All these motorways are merely compounding reliance on Dublin, choking the capital and starving the regions.
jesus sue and Ihatecowboys, you’ve manged to turn the site into a rant fest. Can you not see the transport for the cars?
there are alternatives to destruction. This is not progress. It’s merely aping the failed transport policies of Britain in the 1950’s and 60’s. Go away and read a book, or do some research on the topic before polluting an otherwise mature, polite, and informative site with your ill, if not un, informed witterings. You are debating here with transport and planning professionals. Bear that in mind before you respond
RAIL LINE RAIL LINE RAIL LINE
Where’s the Navan Rail Line?
oh yeh and Jobs, what about jobs. We should be cutting out the need to travel by private car not facilitating it with backward proposals like “let’s upgrade all the roads to Dublin, that’ll sort out regional developemnt!!!
especially Meath;s 4th Motorway/HQDC
fergair, do you know who the Minister for transport is ? 🙂 exactly. All Barry Kenny has succeeded in doing is highlighting the need for a DTA. And dowlingm has hit the nail on the head, both in relation to what IE have said, and what the station should become
you’d also miss Dublin 2, the real professional service core, the retail core, and the new Digital Hub, which is to have it;s own station. I’m amazed that no-one has picked up on the fact that this new kite flyer from IE completely contradicts stated National Government Policy. Broadstone is a terminus. There’s no real onward citybound link possible, such as the Interconnector that we have now for Heuston. I’d just like Kenny to come out and say how all this fits into the grander scheme of things. Or is it more of a case of defending his turf and speaking out of line knowing that Cullen is too busy to slap him down? and why was it only in the Herald? Anyone got any other links? that also struck me as strange. Was it in the Times or the I*do?
Eh how in the name of jaysus does this tie in with the Navan rail project. ffs, the alignment runs from Docklands along the canal does it not? Are we to have a spur to Broadstone? will that be worth it. And I note no mention of LUAS Line BX/D to extend to Grangegorman and possibly Finglas. Surely that’s a priority and could easily just run along the old rail alignment through phibsboro to Liffey Junction, as per Transport 21. Do these IE people know about that? seemingly not.
Saying “we need all the city centre capacity we can get” is all well and good, but surely co-ordination and maximising accessibility for the most people is more important. For T21 to be implemented as proposed, Broadstone will be needed for LUAS as it stands between O’Connell St. and Grangegorman / Liffey Junction.
I just don’t see the role for Heavy Rail at Broadstone, under any strategy, T21 or DTO? Are IE just gonna fuck off and do their own thing. Every day the need for a DTA grows greater, and every day fathead Cullen is dickin’ about with it. Bring on the canvassers boyos!
oh yeh, by the way, I was going past it the other day. One of Dublin’s finest buildings. A Railway Museum perhaps?
there just has to be amenity issues in relation to proximity and shadowing there. What’s the distance between the towers?
jaysus people that was an awful heated debate over a few bridges and slip roads here and there!!
anyway the great irony is that the Dublin County Engineers in the 1980’s designed all junctions on the M50 as free-flow, only to have their designs shafted by government. All the while Pee Flynn was shaking hands in the next room with NTR on one of the most outrageous deals ever undertaken by any government…
Although I agree with the principles outlined by PVC, we have to be able to accept that things change as projects progress. This is a monster undertaking and there will be more episodes such as this along the way. Hopefully not too many.
However all of the following things are more necessary than the M50 upgrade, and will be more advantageous economically and socially to Greater Dublin, but have been delayed and/or shelved
Metro North
Metro West
Northside radial LUAS
Bray LUAS and Metro upgrade
Interconnector
Kildare Route Project
Tallaght Metro
Second Southside LUAS
Extra busesthe stadium is shifting slightly clockwise to bring it away from the rail line. The reason for the funny shape and height, and also why the back pitch isn’t being used is capacity. If they were to rotate it 90 degrees, the long sideline stands on the north side would be tiny due to the proximity of houses, so they’d lose more capacity. Sinking the pitch requires more space as well. This is also the reason for the discrepancy in height vs Croker. However Lansdowne is gonna be about 3 times lower at the north terrace than Croker is. A point not amenable to the begrudgers and the media
as for the rail closures, I wouldn’t be too mindful of these types of press reports. If you were to believe all the sunday papers over the years, we’d have a city where people were killed by trams every day, the port tunnel would be on fire while also under water and every time a motorway opens the traffic would improve!! This is such a huge political development at such a sensitive time, that I reckon many many heretofore impossibilities will suddenly arrive in Fianna Fails “A Lot Done” inbox from their overstretched “more to do” tray
As with all developments, greenfield sites are always easier to build on, but location is what it’s all about and you can’t beat Lansdowne. Even Croker’s environs aren’t a patch on Ballsbridge
no no public realm, i was just being nostalgic. All those grounds are/were decrepit and dated.But to compare Lansdowne road to a knacker’s yard is extremely unfair…. I mean I’ve seen old clips of Steptoe and Son, and you wouldn’t want that poor horse Hercules (thanks Google) to have to stand in the North Terrace on a November evening watching that sh1te we saw yesterday would you??
I must say I was surprised at the Inspector’s reasoning. Although an examination of alterntives forms part of the EIS, it’s technically impossible to use this to conclude that one of them is better, because the information will obviously not be there to base your decision on. The EIS will always claim that the proposed development is the best alternative.
There was a huge amount of work over the years on the location of stadiums in Dublin. Alternatives included Eircom Park at Fortunestown, Bertie Bowl at Abbotstown, a site in Neilstown, just Croker alone, Lansdowne, North Docks, and IGB. It fell heavily to Lansdowne but Bertie pushed on with his lunacy of a scheme.
jimg, just in response to your question on alternatives: They have to be feasible and not just frivolous or unrealistic. Although like in retail planning, it can be skewed and usually is. But in this case, I seem to recall, it was a fairly standard job in this regard.
Also on the Inspector’s overall conduct in the appeal, I doubt if he was anything less than thorough and professional. However, as suggested earlier, his reasoning was outside the remit of the planning process. It’s akin to refusing an extension coz it would work better on the house next door. It’s a nonsense and a sop to the locals. I look forward to reading his explanation for this. I believe he acted outisde his remit. I could be wrong but think about it; You own land, you apply for planning. it fulfils all legal and policy requirements. And you get refused because another site, which doesn’t fulfil any of the legal and policy requirements such as zoning and ownership, is more suitable for your development? That’s what he was saying.
ah ctesiphon, the cheek. well I’m off to Croker for the big game today so 11 clowns is certainly on today’s menu. I am beginning to question the Bord / Inspector relationship. I must do some research some time, but if there’s any correlation between this contradictory outcome and the politically sensitive nature of the development, then something stinks. I 100% predict the exact same outcome for IKEA. I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever
They were originally hoping to bring down the west stand over the Easter bank holiday weekend, but the delay pervented this. Apparently they’ll be on site in 2 months. I don’t believe leave for a judicial review will be granted in this case either. And that’ll be that then. Another piece of our sporting legacy gone. In a decade the list will be Milltown, Lansdowne, Old Croker, Dalymount, possibly Tolka, and every golf course within 8 miles of O’Connell Street
just wathing the England U21 game at the new wembley….mother of God, that’s some place. There’s an awful lot of sporting history being made in 07. Rugby and Soccer at Croker, the mauling of England, the Cricket team in the world’s elite, wembley, and the falling of The Old Lady of Ballsbridge (battleaxe maybe?)
blimp, I disagree that there’s a bigger demand for rugby tickets than soccer. I don’t think there’s been a single competitive game that hasn’t sold out since 1986. And it’s the most played sport in Ireland (yes, even more than GAA)
Seamus, what’s goin on with the RDS? And the Dodder wlak is being expanded and upgraded as part of this so I wouldn’t see that as too big an issue tbh
