Re-open Broadstone!!!

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    • #706059
      J. Seerski
      Participant

      You had a fantastic profile of the station recently on this site – congrataultions to those involved!

      Anyway, visited the actual site recently and it is probably the most maligned and magnificent building in Ireland. It is unbelievable that the surrounding area is just a big bus park!

      There must be over fifty acres in the entire complex – and given most of the alignments of the old station to Navan are still in place, here are a few suggestions….

      1. Tranfer the bus depot to the M50 Ring.
      2. Re-open Broadstone as a mainline trainstation, connecting Dublin to Navan, with commuter stops in between.
      3. The MASSIVE landbank surrounding the station should be sold off to part finance the reopening – and given its proximity to the centre, and transport links, it would be ideal for large scale office development – something that Smithfield is bereft of.
      4. Finally, the petrol station, the two odd houses in front, and the three corporation blocks should be removed – opening up the Sation for all to admire, and creating the biggest public plaza in Ireland – and what a plaza, with Kings Inns and the Station enclosing it.

      Dream on….but maybe someone with a brain in govenment will realise how senseless Broadstone is in its current state, both aesthetically and commercially….

    • #724955
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Originally posted by J. Seerski
      1. Tranfer the bus depot to the M50 Ring.
      2. Re-open Broadstone as a mainline trainstation, connecting Dublin to Navan, with commuter stops in between.
      3. The MASSIVE landbank surrounding the station should be sold off to part finance the reopening – and given its proximity to the centre, and transport links, it would be ideal for large scale office development – something that Smithfield is bereft of.
      4. Finally, the petrol station, the two odd houses in front, and the three corporation blocks should be removed – opening up the Sation for all to admire, and creating the biggest public plaza in Ireland – and what a plaza, with Kings Inns and the Station enclosing it.


      1. Agreed, but the unions will object.
      2. The problem with Broadstone, even in 1938 when it closed, was that it was viewed as being too far out from the City Centre. Maybe if a LUAS Line was run to it to provide an onward connection, this could be overcome.
      3. I agree, but not in the present climate where office space is a devalued commodity.
      4. This was proposed many years ago by Dublin Corporation, but like so many ideas, died a quick death.

    • #724956
      urbanisto
      Participant

      Dublin Bus is building a new depot in Finglas. Maybe they have longterm plans for Broadstone which havent surfaced yet

    • #724957
      J. Seerski
      Participant

      ok, but it really isn’t that far from the city – its closer than Heuston – and no one would even think of closing that!

    • #724958
      J. Seerski
      Participant

      and what the hell is “a devalued commodity”???

      New office space is always in demand – its the old rubbish like O’Connell Bridge House and that ilk that find it difficult to survive in an economic downturn.

      Broadstone is ideally placed to serve the city and if reopened could act as a massive economic regenerator to a part of the city which is dull, sleepy and lacks one important aspect – people!!!

      The city centre is too small for a city of over 1 million. It needs to be expanded – can you really say that Broadstone – less than a kilometer from Parnell Square – is too far from the city centre?

    • #724959
      urbanisto
      Participant

      Maybe as part of the Legal Quarter that Paul was referring to a while back?

    • #724960
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Originally posted by J. Seerski
      and what the hell is “a devalued commodity”???.

      Have you been around Dublin City recently? Empty office blocks everywhere. I walk from Grand Canal Dock DART Station to Wilton PLace everyday. From Shelbourne Road up to Lower Mount Street, there are 5 buildings in a line with “To Let” signs outside them. Dublin is oversupplied with office space at the moment

    • #724961
      J. Seerski
      Participant

      The area was identified as an area where high-rise may work – and given the vast expanse behind Broadstone it may just suit here.

      A legal quater – maybe. But the key to a regeneration here would have to involve reopening Broadstone. It is not far from the city centre as has been suggested. The entire northwestern sector of the city would benefit greatly from reopening of the railway line. Closing Broadstone in 1938 was of its time – Navan was just a sleepy town then! Mistakes were made, and they should be rectified, not await the fate of Harcourt Street railway.

    • #724962
      Gabriel-Conway
      Participant

      Actually this is not as far-fetched as it sounds, though the issues involved are a little more complex.

      The land and buildings at Broadstone actually comprise 4 different depots/works, which taken together form the biggest bus-garage anywhere in Europe.

      They makeup is as follows:

      (1) Phibsboro Garage (Dublin Bus) – self-contained with modern (1970s) purpose built engineering and office buildings. This is the site closest to the flats, and is essentially up the steep ramp that you see as you come in off the main road onto the site. The Driver Training School is also located here.

      (2) Broadstone Garage (Bus Eireann) – this garage comprises a large open area of parking, which serves the Bus Eireann fleet (Express coaches & rural and commuter buses) for most of the East Coast of Ireland and counties surrounding Dublin. The maintainence area is converted from the inside of the old railway station. The magnificant main station frontage is used as the Head Office of Bus Eireann, and is largely unaltered inside.

      I was there recently, and was shown a wonderful high hallway with balcony and sweeping staircase, closed off for many years after someone apparently tried to jump off the balcony in despair.

      (3) Broadstone Depot – Dublin Bus.
      This is towards the back of the site, on the old railway alignment, and was for many years the scrapyard where all CIE buses were destroyed after their 16 year life. Scrapping is now contracted out (and the company is now finally enlightened enough to be selling the vehicles on the second-hand market instead of destroying them) and in 2000 this area was refurbished and reopened as a new Dublin Bus depot, to cater for the massive fleet expansion under the NDP. (we have about 170 more buses in the Dublin fleet now than there were in 1998, and the existing garages were bursting at the seams).

      (4) Broadstone Works – Dublin Bus.
      A fascinating rabbit-warren of old railway buildings, between the new garage and the main road, reached either from the garage, or through an old stone archway near the fire-station. Until the mid-80s this was a major centre for mechanical overhaul and refurbishment of all CIE vehicles, now it is mostly empty buildings, though many people still work there. Traditionally new buses were inspected here before dispatch to the depots, so they would emerge through the archway when brand new, and dissapear back through the same arch 16-20 years later to be cut up in the scrapyard. The Works buildings are 90% unused, and have terrifiic potential as apartments etc – lots of little courtyards, wonderful old stone buildings and sheds etc.

      The future:

      Dublin Bus is building a new 250+ vehicle depot at Harristown, just off the M50. This was originally intended for fleet expansion, but investment in extra vehicles (rather than just replacements) under the NDP has all but stopped now. The company recently published a tender on the e-tenders site, looking for a consultation study into the possibility of moving many of the buses and operations currently based at Broadstone into a new out-of-town location (Harristown?).

      Given that the land bank is actually owned by CIE, which is to be broken up, and the companies (Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus) will be in comptition with each other as opposed to the current sibling relationship, it will be interesting to see how the whole Broadstone issue is sorted out.

      Given that it currently houses an operation fleet of well over 600 buses, I could not see it being entirely replaced – you would need three complete multi-million euro depots to do that.

      But equally I could see the old works buildings becoming some very salable real estate . . .

      Gabriel

      ps – sorry this post was so long!

    • #724963
      J. Seerski
      Participant

      Yeah, but you neglect the re-opening bit.

      Its not a question of viability – its to do with priority. The existing transport infrastucture in Dublin is – as we all know – inadequate. Instead of spending billions on new projects from scratch, it would be better to reopen a link that has most of the essentials (land, lines, stations etc.) in place rather than start from the beginning and waste more money in the process.

    • #724964
      sw101
      Participant

      it should be remembered that within 20 years the whole of grangegorman is intended to be developed into a campus to rival u.c.d. this would make the whole area a rejuvenated centre for education, and consequentially a residential centre, shopping and also business centre. someone in cie or bus eireann or whoever is in charge of the whole mess has to realise they are sitting on a prime centre for growth in the 21st century. it is possible they are simply holding out for better prospects, looking forward to the day when land values increase in the area. what of the proposal to make the front of the kings inn and the courtyard between the north and south wings a circulation route from parnell street directly to grangegorman. this would complete an almost straight path from the millenium bridge right through the ilac and onto the new campus which would be energised and activated to the point of ridding itself of the dead and lacklustre atmosphere that permeates the area at the moment.

      the argument over the existing flats will of course rage on forever in the minds of delinquent architecty types but they must be adressed as part of our existing urban fabric. it might shock some people to know that by and large the occupants are content and rightly so. its not easy to find comfortable and affordable accommodation within walking distance of the city centre. has anyone tried to rent a two bed flat anywhere in dublin 1 recently?

      as for broadstone, it does figure in the plans for the metro and future luas expansion. somewhere in cie is a little map and a timescale that we probably wont hear about in detail for a while.

    • #724965
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      Evening Herald

      A NEW generation of Dubliners may soon see the reopening of one of the city’s oldest railway stations.

      The Broadstone station, which has been closed for over 40 years, is set for a revival under ambitious plans from larnrod Eireann.

      The move could see the beautiful station reopen its doors within the next eight years, according to a spokesperson for larnrod Eireann.

      “We are in the process of planning at the moment for future development. We have such huge growth at the minute that we need all the city centre capacity that is possible,” Barry Kenny told the Evening Herald. Mr Kenny added that the railway tracks servicing the line were “largely” still intact but added that a lot of work would have to be done.

      The reopening of Broadstone station would also tie in well with the plans for the new Navan line which is due to open in 2015.

      Mr Kenny said he expected to see the opening of the station in the ‘medium-term future’ and suggested that it could be completed within the next five to eight years.

      Broadstone is one of the city’s oldest rail stations and the old building has won much praise for its architectural style.

      It was described as the most monumental of the four main railway termini in Dublin.

      However, passenger services at the station were withdrawn in 1937 and it was turned into a maintenance depot.

      The station was closed up completely in 1961 when steam locomotives ended.

      Now the historical building acts as a bus depot for Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann and its forecourt is a surface carpark.

      For years now the building is better known for its grand appearance than it’s history as a railway station. Sited on a hill, its most dramatic feature is its railway shed with huge columns. The station was designed in a neo-Egyptian style and constructed of granite.

      In the past there have been calls to turn the building into a transport museum. However, the owners of the building have been criticised by a top architectural website for allowing it to fall into such disrepair.

      The news about Broadstone comes a week after the opening of the new EUR10m railway station in Adamstown, west Dublin.

    • #724966
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      EDIT: Double post (that couldn’t be undone in work).

    • #724967
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      the owners of the building have been criticised by a top architectural website for allowing it to fall into such disrepair.

      I wonder which website? ๐Ÿ™‚ Surely not little old us…?

      I paid the building a visit recently for the first time, up close at any rate, and it was a thoroughly depressing experience. Not depressing in a frustrated / angry way, more in a saddened / melancholy way – such a pity to see such a fine building standing so forlorn and forgotten in this neglected corner of the city.

      Please, Iarnrod Eireann, keep your word on this.

    • #724968
      Anonymous
      Participant

      strange one from IE, never a word from them about re-opening Broadstone until now …

      nice one from an architectural point of view, any interior pics ?

      would you consider it the ‘most monumental’ of dublin’s main rail terminii ?

    • #724969
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster
    • #724970
      Anonymous
      Participant

      ah now i see where the herald got that from ๐Ÿ™‚

      Nice view here … (from techpress.ie)

    • #724971
      alonso
      Participant

      Eh how in the name of jaysus does this tie in with the Navan rail project. ffs, the alignment runs from Docklands along the canal does it not? Are we to have a spur to Broadstone? will that be worth it. And I note no mention of LUAS Line BX/D to extend to Grangegorman and possibly Finglas. Surely that’s a priority and could easily just run along the old rail alignment through phibsboro to Liffey Junction, as per Transport 21. Do these IE people know about that? seemingly not.

      Saying “we need all the city centre capacity we can get” is all well and good, but surely co-ordination and maximising accessibility for the most people is more important. For T21 to be implemented as proposed, Broadstone will be needed for LUAS as it stands between O’Connell St. and Grangegorman / Liffey Junction.

      I just don’t see the role for Heavy Rail at Broadstone, under any strategy, T21 or DTO? Are IE just gonna fuck off and do their own thing. Every day the need for a DTA grows greater, and every day fathead Cullen is dickin’ about with it. Bring on the canvassers boyos!

      oh yeh, by the way, I was going past it the other day. One of Dublin’s finest buildings. A Railway Museum perhaps?

    • #724972
      jungle
      Participant

      Trying to summarise the pros and cons

      Pros

      • It would bring a boost to an area of Dublin that needs it
      • Extra capacity for terminating trains in Dublin City Centre

      Cons

      • It could undermine the case for the interconnector
      • It would use an alignment that should be used by LUAS (Is this Irish Rail’s intention?)
      • It doesn’t integrate well with public transport
      • It’s quite a stretch from Dublin City Centre

      Any to add to that?

    • #724973
      fergalr
      Participant

      I don’t believe that it is a “stretch” from the city centre. Sure Henrietta Street is across a road, behind Kings Inns. It’s an area that will see investment in the next few years, one would imagine, and a major rail terminus with all the ancillary connections and services that should imply would do no harm.

    • #724974
      Anonymous
      Participant

      except for the fact that it probably would as said undermine the case for the interconnector.

    • #724975
      fergalr
      Participant

      Well the interconnector could run northside equally, couldn’t it? It has to cross the river at some point to get to Hueston, but why particularily so far downstream?
      There’s a focus on Stephen’s Green as some sort of underground Grand Central Station that seems a little overly focused.

      Plus, is this interconnector definitely going ahead?

    • #724976
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Its running Sourthside to connect with metro & luas at Stephen’s Green, then on to Pearse to connect with the re-configured Greystones to Maynooth Dart line …

      its questionable whether it will definitely go ahead, shoved to the end of transport 21. It is essential though & has major benefits.

    • #724977
      fergalr
      Participant

      Connelly is on the Maynooth/Greystones line, too.
      Why is St. Stephen’s Green being fetishised as a destination?

    • #724978
      jungle
      Participant

      @fergalr wrote:

      Connelly is on the Maynooth/Greystones line, too.
      Why is St. Stephen’s Green being fetishised as a destination?

      If you went Connolly-Broadstone-Heuston, you’d end up missing the Docklands, missing the CBD around Baggot St and Leeson St and missing the High St area (which has no rail-based public transport at the moment). Instead, you’d create a line that already closely follows an existing LUAS line.

    • #724979
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Capacity at Conolly is the main problem here … technically possible i would say but fairly complex undergound works required for such a hub. True the tunnel could have travelled northside, connecting with metro/luas at o’connel as you say but that would leave pearse out of the loop which is being utilised so that the kildare / balbriggan line will not have to go through connolly, while allowing changes for greystones & maynooth.

      So i suppose Stephen’s Green was chosen to save the interconnector swinging north to o’connell, back south to pearse & back north again to spencer. The objective is to minimise pressure on Connolly ( i think ! )

    • #724980
      fergalr
      Participant

      @jungle wrote:

      If you went Connolly-Broadstone-Heuston, you’d end up missing the Docklands, missing the CBD around Baggot St and Leeson St and missing the High St area (which has no rail-based public transport at the moment). Instead, you’d create a line that already closely follows an existing LUAS line.

      Yeah , I see what you mean, but I also can envisage the city area around Broadstone being revitalised to a great extent in the next few years and the provision of an important rail terminus will help the area to the same degree that an up and coming area will do no harm to the terminus itself. ESPECIALLY with the growing importance that any government will have in the next Dail, giving the assumption that the Greens may well be “kingmakers”.

    • #724981
      alonso
      Participant

      you’d also miss Dublin 2, the real professional service core, the retail core, and the new Digital Hub, which is to have it;s own station. I’m amazed that no-one has picked up on the fact that this new kite flyer from IE completely contradicts stated National Government Policy. Broadstone is a terminus. There’s no real onward citybound link possible, such as the Interconnector that we have now for Heuston. I’d just like Kenny to come out and say how all this fits into the grander scheme of things. Or is it more of a case of defending his turf and speaking out of line knowing that Cullen is too busy to slap him down? and why was it only in the Herald? Anyone got any other links? that also struck me as strange. Was it in the Times or the I*do?

    • #724982
      shaun
      Participant

      Great news this if it ever gets off the ground….It’s closer to the city-center than Connolly station.

      Something really special could be made out of this Constitution Hill area, get rid of those flats and with the Kings inn on one side and Broadstone on the other you’ve got the finest crossroads in Dublin.

    • #724983
      Anonymous
      Participant

      there’s no way its nearer the city centre & it connects with nothing.

      I’m not saying I don’t want to see it used, returning it to full use as a station is really what the building deserves.

    • #724984
      Anonymous
      Participant

      It reminds me of Marylebone station in London in terms of proposed use. I.E. A couple of proposed commuter routes that could terminate elsewhere. Critically Marylebone is on the underground network where as to reinstate Broadstone to rail would eliminate its potential use as a luas alignment.

      Nice idea in architectural terms but it proves 2 things. Firstly Barry Kenny will run with any idea he is told by his political puppeteers and secondly the Navan rail link is way way down the list of priorities.

      Broadstone should be utilised as a leisure site for high end bars and cafes.

    • #724985
      al_3452
      Participant

      It should be used as a terminus for an airport link, and cork and belfast non stop expresses.

    • #724986
      fergalr
      Participant

      That’d relieve Connelly of whatever magical airport link we may or may not recieve.
      I don’t accept the argument that it’s too far outside the city.

    • #724987
      Anonymous
      Participant

      well in fairness undergound stations at stephen’s green & o’connell street to airport does sound more attractive.

    • #724988
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Agreed Peter

      Fergal there is little point in diverting Navan/Maynooth trains to this location just to give a minister a photo opp; Broadstone whilst only 1.5 miles from Grafton St is not close to anything used by the masses.

      Typical Dublin you have a rail plan developed in 2004-05 and by 2007 the authorities behind it go off on tangents like this one instead of doing what they have agreed to do.

      The costs of refurbing this station would be huge what was spent on Heuston?

      Solution route any future Luas around the side of the station preserving a reserved alignment and let the private sector refurb the station along the lines of Covent Garden or what is planned for the Fruit markets.

      But stop wasting time on hairbrained schemes and complete the Dublin Rail plan

    • #724989
      manifesta
      Participant

      Rail hub or no rail hub, it — whatever it may be — can only be an improvement on Broadstone’s current abyssmal state. Notice how elegant it all looks from afar: the monolithic heft of granite, imposing yet lonely there on its hill, inviting you to take a closer look. So you approach, winding your way through the carpark, swerving to avoid bits of broken glass from beneath your bicycle or under your shoes, and take a moment to admire the detailing on the frieze, so far so good, until your admiring eye drifts down to human level. There the proliferation of rubbish, riff raff, bottles of Beck, aluminum cans, cigarette boxes, mangy mattresses, spools of barbed wire, torn clothing, disused and rusted bits of vehicles and chocolate wrappers strewn all about is so appalling that it brings all admiration for its architecture, all debate about what this beautiful building could be to a screeching halt. Gentle reader, a dramatization:

      From this:

      to this:

      After ten minutes, I couldn’t bear to look either.

      Some other thoughts on this are over on the Constitution Hill thread (and excellent, less dismal pix and info on Broadstone in Paul Clerkin’s writeup ), but indeed, the entire area surrounding Broadstone is an example of such potential being left to rack and ruin. I’ll sidestep the transport argument for now and stick to the basics. Step 1: pick up rubbish. Step 2: dismantle medieval barbed wire. Step 3 . . .

      But I’ve had enough humanity for today.

    • #724990
      Anonymous
      Participant

      The frightening thing is that Heuston was no better 15 years ago,

      my favourite CIE moment is the Victorian signal box somewhere north of Carrick on Shannon that has had PVC replacement windows inserted.

      According to one heritage expert pubic semi-states such as health boards are the worst offenders when it comes to proper management of built heritage.

      The images above would add CIE to the list

    • #724991
      dowlingm
      Participant

      As indicated, Broadstone is another terminus. We have enough of those at Connolly, Docklands and Heuston. Trains crossing the existing line to access Broadstone could cause conflicts as happens at Howth Junction at present.

      However, a cleaned up Broadstone with a LUAS nearby could be a bang-up transport museum, right in the heart of the city… not only of vehicles, but the IRRS could be induced to move their records (from Heuston I think) to the new museum.

      My fear is that this press coverage is CIE not wanting RPA to take over “their” property and by proposing a heavy rail alignment they are putting a spanner in any attempt by RPA to use some of the Broadstone alignment, rather than having any real proposal to offer.

    • #724992
      fergalr
      Participant

      Seeing as these are all Semi-State and State bodies, can they not just be told what to do?

    • #724993
      alonso
      Participant

      fergair, do you know who the Minister for transport is ? ๐Ÿ™‚ exactly. All Barry Kenny has succeeded in doing is highlighting the need for a DTA. And dowlingm has hit the nail on the head, both in relation to what IE have said, and what the station should become

    • #724994
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Coming from an asset management background I can say there is no way that you could fund the ongoing maintenance of a substantial Victorian building such as Broadstone through a primary Museum use. This is accentuated by its recent use as a motor garage and decades of disinvestment in the structure.

      In this all Island age rail heritage from the CIE era should be accomodated at Cultra which is an excellent transport museum in its own right.

      The absence of any real clout for the DTO for the past decade is a reflection of the roads roads roads manifesto of Fianna Fail

    • #724995
      SeamusOG
      Participant

      One of the problems here is the height of the station relative to the rest of the city.

      If the Broadstone line (to/from the canal) were to be reopened for a metro or a LUAS line, it would be necessary for either of these to either head underground before the station, or entirely away from the station, if they are to continue to travel in towards the city and maybe across it.

      The gradients involved would quite simply not allow such lines to enter the station building and then continue further into the city.

      As far as I can see, the only situation in which the building itself would be used is as a mainline/metro/LUAS terminus.

      If cross-city metro/LUAS lines are eventually to be part of the overall plan, the Broadstone station building will play no part, though the line to/from Broadstone hopefully will. It is probably time to look seriously at alternative uses for this fine building.

    • #724996
      urbanisto
      Participant

      IT piece today saying that IE will reopen this station with a spur from Liffey Junction

    • #724997
      -Donnacha-
      Participant

      It could be used as a public space of some sort. It’s an interesting building, I don’t however think it has much future as a major transport hub. Perhaps, it might be served by Luas / Metro, but not as anything other than a minor station. The site itself has a lot of potential though.

      Seems a shame it was allowed to deteriorate so badly though.

      I wonder if it was an early example of poor planning. It seems that the builders of the site might have assumed that there was going to be more substantial growth of the city in that direction. Instead, most of the investment in terms of new housing post 1930s went south of the river and most of the business district also migrated to Dublin 2.

    • #724998
      alonso
      Participant

      Christ why do we have the DTO strategy and T21 if IE can just go ahead and do this? Is no-one in charge. I know we’ve had a wee election but why is no central govt representative such as Cullen explaining how this fits in with a plan that sees it as a luas stop only? Madness…

      This is T21 from 18 months ago. where is it?

      yes it’s the luas stop between liffey junction and O’Connell Street, to serve DIT Grangegorman. Does this mean that the funds for this project will be from outside the T21 รขโ€šยฌ34 billion investment envelope? Can any transport agency apply for more funding beyond T21? Are they just making shit up as they go along? Is this now a higher priority than the interconnector? Did Cullen hope that by doing this we’d forget about the interconnector. Am I being too cynical? Have I asked too many questions?:rolleyes:

    • #724999
      notjim
      Participant

      I don’t get this at all , wouldn’t the liffey junction luas interchange provide the same access to mainline services as a spur to broadstone, while also giving every 5 minute connectivity from the west side of phibsboro to town. What is the bonus of using this cutting for mainline rather than luas services?

    • #725000
      alonso
      Participant

      i just don’t get it either. I want answers!!!! the luas spur will do exactly what IE want to do. It’s just a vanity project. Anyone on this site working for any of the transport agencies like IE or the RPA who may know what the shit is going on and may covertly wish to enlighten the rest of us through some sort of code?

    • #725001
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Its a turf war!

      Too much of that over recent years; no leadership in sorting out people that are supposed to be public servants!!

    • #725002
      MGWRMAN
      Participant

      Calling this proposal a turf war is a far too local and blinkered view.

      You have got to look at the bigger picture. Broadstone was the original terminous for trains from
      Galway, Westport, Ballina, Sligo, Cavan, Oldcastle, Kingscourt, Kells to mention but a few on the grand old Midland Great Western System.

      Today the services to and from Galway and Westport are extremely poor because of the lack of capacity on the Cork Dublin Line. Cork and south/southwest is favoured over Galway.

      The Sligo Service likewise is fighting for space at Connolly an has no space due to capacity limitations on the north south route.

      Meath has no service at all and as long as the bottleneck at Connolly is not tackled, will continue to have no service.

      Solution: Open Broadstone and link it to the Luas! Look at Heuston which works with Luas, Broadstone being closser to O’Connell Street will work even better. Add the DART element and you got it all.

      Many more trains to serve Meath, the west and north west can now terminate without hitting any of the bottlenecks. Frequesncy on the old MGWR Mullingar to Dublin line will be second to none and, in my opinion, it is a no brainer. I even consider it to be a big enhancment to the interconnector by freeing up more route options.

      Also, put a multilevel station at the Liffey Junction cross over point and link it to a Luas Line to Finglas via Grangegorman or the old Royal Canal Spur to Broadstone and one you have one of the most comprehensive railway syatems anywhere on this island.

      IE should be commended for a last seeing the error of 70 years ago and grasping the opportunity to correct it by restoring this fine terminous. But I wish the political will was there to go much much further in restoring a once faboulus railway system to its former glory. Alas that is another story.

    • #725003
      alonso
      Participant

      that’s all well and good. Why wasn’t it in the DTI of 1994, the DTO strategy of 2001, or Transport 21 of 2005?

      are we gonna be subject to 10 more years of piecmeal transport planning? I’m not gonna criticise this as a stand alone project. i just wish that there was an overarching command structure. Also what about T21 being costed to the exact cent? does that matter at all anymore? Can the RPA now just come out and say they want a LUAS from Naas to Navan? Can Dublin Bus now ask for jetpacks?

    • #725004
      MGWRMAN
      Participant

      Ah, wall paper reports, studies, look at the way they have been mangled by political interferance. For givie me for been so sceptical about these grand plans, for without the political will, all plans have no value.

      Have a look at the fanous strategic rail review that was produced a few years ago. Yes, I agree, it was promptly dismissed and dispatched to the wallpaper department.

      However, stop a moment, dust it down and, most important, read between the lines, and the case for Broadstone and Docklands becomes very clear. This, I believe, is the real direction that rail policy will eventually go and I believe that document was written as the word of the railway powers RPA and IE togeher!

      In order to get the frequency to the west and north west that is called for in this report, one requires a radical shift in present policy. Giving old Broadstone a “lick of paint” and new tracks and making it sparkly fits in just nicely. Add the Luas and you got the cherry on top.

      That is my twopence worth on this one.

    • #725005
      Anonymous
      Participant

      In a word

      ‘Interconnector’

      No more capacity constraints

      Liffey Junction could accomodate 3 or 4 additional platforms with Luas ferrying passengers right to the centre of town.

    • #725006
      MGWRMAN
      Participant

      The problem is the Interconnector does not exist and the political will to build it is fast evaporating due to cost considerations.

      I believe that Broadstone.will be restored at cost less than 5% of the cost of the interconnector when one looks at the cost of the Port Tunnel. This will appeal to the Department of Finance.

      Yes the Interconnector should be built, but at this point in time it is last on the list of priorities and so its future is questionable. This is why I have no faith in the political will to do the job.

      By the way, the big turf war broke out last evening when Dublin Bus threw down the gauntlet over the traffic speeds in Dublin and blamed the LUAS both existing and planned lines. This is where the real problems for LUAS will come. Remember the late lamented United Dublin Tramway Company.

    • #725007
      MGWRMAN
      Participant

      The editor of the Irish Times reiterated the news of Broadstone’s bright future in an excellent comment on Dublin’s traffic crises today.

      The RPA does not have a track plan to extend the LUAS beyoond Broadstone and Grangegorman on its current list of projects on its website.

      So it is all coming together just nicely for the powers that be, no matter what our views are. Broadstone is so much easier to maintain as a historic builing doing exactly what it was designed to do unlike its current use.

      Its what we have, let us throw our weight behind this project for the greater good.

    • #725008
      J. Seerski
      Participant

      As the person who started this thread (back in 2003!) I am particularly pleased to hear this is going ahead.

      Broadstone works for several reasons that an interconnector cannot:

      1. An Interconnector will not resolve capacity problems.
      2. An Interconnector will not address the lack of public transport to the northwest part of Dublin/Ireland in general.
      3. An Interconnector will make Heuston obsolete – why on earth would you travel from Galway/Cork to Heuston when you could go to Stephens Green?
      4. Broadstone would decrease capacity problems whereas the Interconnector would redirect all capacity to one or two termini.

      Broadstone will change Irish Rail in a way that has not happened – it will facilitate the re-opening of the Navan and Athlone-Mullingar lines, enabling a truly branchline network to re-emerge. At the moment, if these line were re-opened, Connolly would not cope and frequencies would be even further under pressure. The latter line in particular will facilitate cross-country travel whereas all cross country travel at the moment has to go via Dublin. One example of this: At the moment, to go from Cork to Sligo, you have to go to Dublin first, luas to Connolly, then Connolly to Sligo. With the re-opening of the Athlone- Mullingar line, you could transfer for Sligo via Portarlington/Athlone/Mullingar and Dublin does not come into the equation at all. Similarly, journeys from Maynooth to Galway become viable, Mullingar to Cork etc. etc. A true renaissance in railway travel will begin.

      Broadstone’s re-opening will also act as a catalyst to the regeneration of this part of the city centre. It is a mere two streets from Parnell Square and as stated already it is closer to the Spire than Heuston and is the same distance as indeed Connolly (just checked OS maps). One of Dublin’s major weaknesses is the compactness of the city centre. Broadstone’s re-opening will facilitate the growth of the city centre towards Smithfield and Heuston. Prior to its closure in the 1930s, the area surrounding the station was dotted with hotels. Needless to say, they disappeared with Broadstone’s closure.

      Every day I pass Broadstone I fell like I am passing a neglected elederly woman that has seen better days. Next time I pass, I will ignore her, safe in the knowledge the best is yet to come for her.

      Welcome Back Broadstone – you were sorely missed! ๐Ÿ™‚ ๐Ÿ™‚ ๐Ÿ™‚

    • #725009
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Gobsmacked by the above!!!

      The main capacity constraint in the system is the section of track between Newcommen Curve Dublin 3 and Barrow Street. The problem is that two lines merge i.e. Longford/Maynooth to Bray and the Northern Line from Dundalk/Howth to Bray/Arklow.

      The interconnector solution was to remove almost all Northern traffic from the Barrow Street to NewCommen constraint zone. The Southern to Maynooth traffic will then interchange with northern and Kildare traffic at Pearse St and connect twice with the existing line at right angles.

      The Broadstone option will offer no such ease of interchange. As for Cork to Sligo changing at Portarlington, Athlone and Mullingar, why not just complete the Burma Road from Tuam to Sligo!

      Solution build the interconnector and flog Broadstone to Derek Quinlan, his management of Claridges has been spot on; a Gordon Ramsey Restaurant would really put the place on the map!

    • #725010
      Rory W
      Participant

      @J. Seerski wrote:

      3. An Interconnector will make Heuston obsolete – why on earth would you travel from Galway/Cork to Heuston when you could go to Stephens Green?

      I would assume it will still work as a terminus for intercity trains in the same way that Connolly does (i.e. You can’t get the Belfast train to Pearse but you can change at Connolly) and commuter/Darts would use the interconnector.

      I welcome the reopening of Broadstone as something but (and lets face it) Phibsborough is hardly going to become a destination overnight for commuters in the same way that the Tara, Connolly, Pearse and Grand Canal Dock serve the CBD. Therefore the onward journey must be considered.

      Personally I think it would be better served as a hub for Luas where lines from Blanchardstown (serving Grangegorman DIT), Finglas and the airport (via DCU/Ballymun) could meet before linking up with a single line to Marlborough Steet (via Western way and Dominic Street) which inturn would link into the green line via Hawkins Street. However to facilitate 2 of these Luas lines you would need to use the old track reservation as far as Liffey junction (where the Navan line could terminate).

    • #725011
      Cute Panda
      Participant

      @J. Seerski wrote:

      Broadstone works for several reasons that an interconnector cannot:

      1. An Interconnector will not resolve capacity problems.
      2. An Interconnector will not address the lack of public transport to the northwest part of Dublin/Ireland in general.
      3. An Interconnector will make Heuston obsolete – why on earth would you travel from Galway/Cork to Heuston when you could go to Stephens Green?
      4. Broadstone would decrease capacity problems whereas the Interconnector would redirect all capacity to one or two termini.

      There are no words really…:eek:

    • #725012
      Anonymous
      Participant

      There are

      London pre underground

    • #725013
      J. Seerski
      Participant

      Steady on lads – there is no reason why Dublin cannot have another mainline train station and there are plenty why it should.

      It is not an either or situation re Broadstone vs Interconnector – have both if you please, but Broadstone is bothe cheaper and easier to deliver in the short term. Again, it would act as a catalyst to expand the city centre – it needs to go beyond O’Connell Street and St. Stephen’s Green…

      Broadstone is hardly phibsboro – it is TWO STREETS FROM PARNELL SQUARE!

    • #725014
      Anonymous
      Participant

      The problem is that Metro North has been skewed away from a Western alignment towards Drumcoundra and Luas would arrive god knows when to this location.

      Given CIE’s record with this site I just don’t trust them with it. DCC if they had any nuts would have served a derelict sites notice years ago on Broadstone.

      If this was another country I’d agree with you but CIE and heritage property being renewed in a project that doesn’t cost ridiculous sums simply don’t mix.

    • #725015
      J. Seerski
      Participant
      PVC King wrote:
      Gobsmacked by the above!!!

      1. The Broadstone option will offer no such ease of interchange. As for Cork to Sligo changing at Portarlington, Athlone and Mullingar, why not just complete the Burma Road from Tuam to Sligo!

      2. Solution build the interconnector and flog Broadstone to Derek Quinlan, his management of Claridges has been spot on]

      1. The point is, at present, it is impossible to connect to the Sligo line with the others without going via Dublin. This re-opening would make such journeys between lines viable without going another hundered miles east to Dublin.

      2. How Flippant.:mad:

    • #725016
      Anonymous
      Participant

      1. For good reason the catchment north of Mullingar is comparable to West Wales

      2. I am totally serious; how many of Derek Quinlans assets perform as badly as Broadstone? Covent Garden is the prime example of a former civic building that provides full public access in a successful commercial format.

      Why should the choice be CIE spend €100’s of millions doing it up a station or mismanage it as a bus garage?

      A stones throw from Kings Inns and with an affluent catchment like Phibsboro the place would be a gold mine; in 20 years when the rest of the rail network exists maybe then it could revert to a station.

      Cart and Horse spring to mind!

    • #725017
      notjim
      Participant

      I don’t see that a mainline station is the effective catalyst for regeneration you claim it to be: lots of mainline stations, our own Heuston included, have seen the area around them degenerate. This area should be regenerated, but the catalysts will be the DIT, the Luas, the redevelopment of the bus depot lands, the emergence of Phibsboro as an important urban village and, potentially the redevelopment of the station itself. Given the interconnector, I don’t see what is gained by having trains terminate here, rather than interchange at Liffey Junction and the lose of regular luas services to Liffey Junction is a major negative.

    • #725018
      markpb
      Participant

      @PVC King wrote:

      Why should the choice be CIE spend รขโ€šยฌ100’s of millions doing it up a station or mismanage it as a bus garage?

      Boring as buses might be, they do need garages. One of the problems with this city is the lack of emphasis given to buses: no priority, no terminus area in the city centre, etc. Those two problems leave us with the smog filled O’Connell St, College green and Dame St during both rush hours and streets like Marlborough St and Parnell square that are nothing more than bus terminii for most of the day.

      Broadstone, regardless of it’s other virtues, its close to the city centre and serves well as a boring old bus depot. Perhaps as a compromise, OPW should be tasked with maintaining it while DB and BE operate out of it, along the lines of the GPO?

    • #725019
      Rory W
      Participant

      @markpb wrote:

      Broadstone, regardless of it’s other virtues, its close to the city centre and serves well as a boring old bus depot. Perhaps as a compromise, OPW should be tasked with maintaining it while DB and BE operate out of it, along the lines of the GPO?

      Yeah but broadstone as it currently is is just a depot – you cannot actually get a bus from there as you can from Busaras – much better if the area was a hub where bus meets Luas

    • #725020
      notjim
      Participant

      Why is “close to the city center” a useful criterion for bus depot locations: they are a very low intensity land use and they don’t have much of a planning gain. The problems of priority and terminus areas is separate from the location of the depots.

    • #725021
      Anonymous
      Participant

      And what is wrong with paired up cross city routes? The an Lar -ism that persists at Dublin is nuaseating

      On the building use

      http://www.industrialproperty.ie/article.asp?id=36

      The Station is far too valuable and architecturally important to be abused as an auld shed

    • #725022
      markpb
      Participant

      @notjim wrote:

      Why is “close to the city center” a useful criterion for bus depot locations: they are a very low intensity land use and they don’t have much of a planning gain. The problems of priority and terminus areas is separate from the location of the depots.

      I guess that depends on what functions you view as depot as having. If all you want is somewhere to store buses overnight, then an out of city location is fine. If you want to remove waiting-up buses during the day, clear them off city streets, etc. then somewhere close to the city centre, like other cities do, is preferable.

      @PVC King wrote:

      And what is wrong with paired up cross city routes?

      Because in Dublin, they’d be a disaster. Have you tried to get through the city centre on a bus at rush hour lately? The complete lack of predictability and priority makes it almost impossible to run effectively without…. more buses waiting-up on streets and crippling them.

    • #725023
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Cross city routes lead to a situation where they terminus out of town; prime example 16A terminating at Dublin Airport and Rathfarnham. Given the size of Dublin there is no excuse for city buses terminating any closer than just outside the canals.

      But lets not lose sight of the fact that the main use at this site is Bus Eireans maintenance depot which should be in Blanchardstown or Clondalkin

    • #725024
      markpb
      Participant

      @PVC King wrote:

      But lets not lose sight of the fact that the main use at this site is Bus Eireans maintenance depot which should be in Blanchardstown or Clondalkin

      Absolutely. If the site is ever re-opened as an IC terminus then, like Rory W said, we should be aiming for a Luas / Bus / Rail hub with proper interchange facilities. There’s no reason why the DB depot couldn’t be retained under that use although obviously the road layout would have to change.

    • #725025
      Rory W
      Participant

      @J. Seerski wrote:

      Broadstone is hardly phibsboro – it is TWO STREETS FROM PARNELL SQUARE!

      But it may as well be Heuston as perceptionally this area is quite a distance from the core of the city.

      (And it’s only1 road from Phibsborough :rolleyes: )

    • #725026
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @markpb wrote:

      Because in Dublin, they’d be a disaster. Have you tried to get through the city centre on a bus at rush hour lately? The complete lack of predictability and priority makes it almost impossible to run effectively without…. more buses waiting-up on streets and crippling them.

      There was a bloke who used to live across the road from me who moved to a bungalow outside Mullingar; he always contended that parked buses were the sole creator of traffic jams in the City.

      I don’t agree with him but the long term parking of buses in places like Marlborough St and some of the Quays are a major contributor to traffic congestion as are the location of bus stops in places like Grafton Street, Clare Street, O’Connell Street etc

      Someone needs to take a serious look at road space in Dublin and just get the City moving; it is only logical that terminusing buses out of the centre can only improve the situation. The fact that the City may be gridlocked for long periods is beside the point; it is not as if some routes are freeflowing at peak time whilst the other leg of the journey is the holdup. Its all banjaxed!!!

      A car exclusion route from Dorset St to Christchurch and Nassau St needs to be created for starters. And the Harristown model successfully implemented by Dublin Bus needs to be replicated somewhere in South Dublin and also in West Dublin.

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