The Tara Bypass – what they won’t tell you
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Anyone in Meath who needs a proper road should move to Kildare? Congrats, Fin. That is officially the most stupid argument ever made on the Archeire site.
And yes, I read all 3,900 idiotic entries by PVC King before coming to my considered conclusion.
Exact distance from the M4 to Navan?
Exact Distance from N2 to Navan?
This is not a case of ‘Irelands Roads’ not being in need of a dire upgrade.
I fully support upgrade of M1, M4/6, M7/8 as these are key peices of national infrastructure serving large populations. What is the combined population of Navan, Kells, Cavan?
This is a commuter motorway and there is no justification for this route other than making a packet for the toll operators.
This is Westlink mark 2 and as much as you want to laugh at others fully rationalised arguments you will be paying two tolls a day every day with no alternative as you obviously want this as you are a local.
On existing traffic flows the current usage of the N3 at a peak of 19000 vehicles per day would be well within the capacity range of the M4; a motorway can carry 100,000 vehicles per day. Are you really saying that the existing centre / west Meath road network could cope with an additional 80,000 dublin bound movements per day?
What happens when they all hit the M50?
This road is 500% over spec’d
Sue
Have a go
Sorry got to run for a meeting
Chau
@Ihatecowboys wrote:
The road is needed full stop. People who live in the areas where it passes through need and want it….rant… rant… rant… Thats why opinion in the area is completely devided. Its construction alone will create jobs and as a direct consequence of the road property in the areas it passes through will increase in value. Plenty of land can then be re-zoned for more sprawl. Businesses will want to locate close to the road creating more jobs – requiring a further road to bypass the bypass. A few posts in the ground… rant… rant… Well go to any builders providers and Im sure you will find some similar ones. Probably not rotten and probably in better condition. Once you get them i rant… rant… rant…. rant… rant… rant… put the postd in the ground. then go to the butchers and get a few bones and then the beach and a few stones and a few scraps of metal from a salvage shop. Then you can go and have fun looking at these things. the thoughts are exciting me…………..NOT.
THIS ROAD AND ALL SIMILAR ROAD PROJECTS TO FOLLOW ARE PROGRESS
RANT RANT
THE ROAD IS CLEARLY NEEDED
AS IS PROFESSIONAL CARE FOR THE MENTALLY DERANGED
RANT
ITS PEOPLE LIKE YOU PVC THAT SHOULD BE LOCKED UP IN A HOME FOR PROMOTING WASTEFUL USE OF MONEY AND RESOURCES. RANT RANT RANT.
THESE POSTS AND OTHER ANCIENT AREASWOULD RANT RANT NOT HAVE BEEN UNCOVERED IF THIS ROAD WAS NOT BEING CONSTRUCTED. RANT RANT.
RANT RANT RANT
SO THEY WERE BURIED UNDER SOIL FOR THE LAST THOUSANDS OF YEARS SO IT WILL BE NO DIFFERENT IF THEY ARE BURIED UNDER A ROAD [CLEARLY A PROFESSIONAL OPINION HERE]. PROBABLY BETTER FOR THEIR PRESERVATION.
GET OVER IT.
Indeed. *yawn*.
jesus sue and Ihatecowboys, you’ve manged to turn the site into a rant fest. Can you not see the transport for the cars?
there are alternatives to destruction. This is not progress. It’s merely aping the failed transport policies of Britain in the 1950’s and 60’s. Go away and read a book, or do some research on the topic before polluting an otherwise mature, polite, and informative site with your ill, if not un, informed witterings. You are debating here with transport and planning professionals. Bear that in mind before you respond
@ake wrote:
I believe this thread now requires closing, moderator.
Maybe – but I wouldn’t necessarily agree… Its as if PVCKing read the future when originally titleing the thread, given that the NRA subsequently did not reveal the existance of the temple / henge until their hand was forced…Just like what happened with the Viking longphort site at Woodstown, Waterford, in 2004 😮
Anyhow, if the thread does close, before it goes here’s a release that An Taisce put out regarding the temple site discovery…
Seems to sum it all up really. A total and predicted mess.
An Taisce Press Release wrote:NEW TARA DISCOVERY HIGHLIGHTS NEED FOR REINSTATEMENT OF NATIONAL MONUMENTS ACTAn Taisce – 02 May 2007
There was a time not too long ago that a new site worthy of the designation “National Monument†would have been wholly welcomed by the Minister of the Environment. More importantly its preservation would have been guaranteed.
The discovery of a circular wooden structure of possible Iron Age date in the Tara-Skryne valley is a major event. It is a new key element in an integrated complex of monuments and places that have been recognized both archaeologically and historically. The number of sites on the Tara ridge alone is now approximately 40. The importance of Tara and it’s relationship with the High Kings of Ireland is known to all. The discovery of what could be called a temple, after the fashion of a comparable discovery at Emain Macha, seat of the Kings of Ulster, is of obvious major significance. Such sites are extremely rare.
Prior to this government’s ill-advised amendments to the National Monuments Act in 2004, the Minister for Environment would have had very limited “wriggle-room†and a National Monument would have been safe. No longer]
We are debating here “with transport and planning professionals” !! 🙂 Thank you for allowing us mere mortals to breathe the same air, Alonso.
But what, pray tell, are such professionals doing on an architectural website? They would be more at home making these arguments on Platform 11 or wherever. Anyway, the case being made by Fin etc. sounds more like what you’d hear from members of An Taisce or Friends of the Irish Environment – not “transport professionals”, who would not, in my experience, oppose a vital motorway in such knee-jerk fashion.
As for accusing us pro-M3 people of ranting, and demanding that that the thread be closed by the moderator, these are the last refuges of people whose arguments have been well and truly trounced. Like religious believers, the Stop the M3 people know, deep down, that they are wrong and only bleat all the louder in order to disguise their inner doubts from themselves.
Sue
You have been asked 4 times to explain to us why this motorway is vital or put another way to who and what proportion of the population is it vital.
You haven’t instead you have just thrown mud
I fee at £275 an hour
I don’t have time to waste on second rate hacks who hide behind a pseudonym in print media
Alonso. If I am debating with transport and planning professionals about this project, I imagine it is the transport and planning professionals that have never succeeded in their chosen career. Sometimes you have to put what in theory in an ideal world is maybe right in the back of your head and focus on what is right in this the real world. If you are transport and planning professionals that are writing on this thread well then you ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
At this rate this M3 situation could end up like the situation in carrickmines, costing millions, and in the end the road went ahead practically as planned. To discuss this issue in detail one would have to look at all the statistics, plans and strategies that have been developed that merit this road.
I have read many of PVC’s previous threads and it would appear that all PVC is doing trying to spread propaganda about anything.
Studies concerning the feasibility and need for this road have been carried out by highly qualified professionals.
Fine say we don’t need it. However 25 years ago one may have argued that the M50 was not needed or over designed. Now 25 years on with economic growth in Ireland and huge population growth in the Dublin region the M50 has reached its capacity and has to be modified.
This road is forward planning. In 10/15 years I expect that this road will have a high capacity of traffic due to urban sprawl and further economic growth in Ireland.
It is and it will be needed. All it is that Ireland are moving ahead of themselves at last and trying to leave the days of the m50 fiascos behind.
Fine its going to run through various areas of archaeology importance, but as I said before the knowledge of these areas would not have been fully exploited.
Please PVC don’t reply to this with useless rubbish on why it’s needed and how it’s 500% over designed or over budget or any silly comments like that. I suggest you read the EIS.
Closing this thread is just saying that people like PVC cannot bear facing the true facts.
M1 At Balbriggan 41,869 movements per day
M4 39,088 Maynooth Mpd
M7 56,830 Naas MPD
N3 Tara 18,153
The figures tell the true story
N2 Collon 54,450
I note the NRA have taken down the very accurate hourly data
I wonder why?
Good research PVC. Now what year were these figures recorded?? 2005/2006 most likely. And what will these figures be in 10/15 years time?? I guarantee that they will be significantly greater. Look at the m50 as a prime example. In its early planning stages no one foresaw the likelihood of economic and population growth and consequently before the road was officially finished it was too small!!
They would be equal or lower if Meath Co Co started to dezone land and if €71m was spent opening the rail link to Dublin.
Choices for transport Navan Dublin, 90 minutes by car or 90 minutes by bus.
Planning in Meath for the last decade has been a farce!
Schools, Hospitals, local roads, retail provision all in crisis.
Planning to expand that mess with identical planning policies is simply not an option.
Railway is a good alternative but what about the transport of goods? It would necessitate double handling to change from road transport to rail then back to road again! And the likely hood of de-zoning?? Not unless the Green Party get into power which is doubtful.
Freight movements are recorded as being 7.5% of total movements at this point i.e. 1500 per day and as freight tends to avoid peak congestion times the distribution is spread more evenly to an average of probably 100 per hour in both directions combined. I.e. less than one truck a minute in either direction on average.
Nimbies can do the dezoning for you if the development plan is tweaked a little.
Choice after the election for both blocks will be either SF or the Greens the way the numbers look now. It is not a difficult choice.
Only rail can move hundereds of thousands of people to City Centres; the car just doesn’t do it anymore
Not to turn this into a political debate but signs would point towards another term of FF. Good news for everyone involved in the construction industry! The thoughts of Sinn Fein in power worry me.
1500 is still a big number in terms of having sufficient facilities at either end of the track and all these increased movements will result in increased carbon emissions.
Rail freight in Ireland is a non runner at present but less than one truck per minute in either direction on this route is not enough to stretch a standard wide carriageway let alone justify a dual carriageway.
The N3 is an issue at Dunshaughlin which no doubt needs to be bypassed and they might as well continue to Clonee while they are at it.
Beyond that point there is no justification at Kells you are down to 12,992 total movements a day.
Who came up with the idea for this road in its present form?
I’m surprised at the blinkered approach being adopted here, and also by the acceptance by people of backward outdated planning principles.
We are debating here “with transport and planning professionals” !! Thank you for allowing us mere mortals to breathe the same air, Alonso. But what, pray tell, are such professionals doing on an architectural website?
What I was trying to get across there was that there are qualified people all over Ireland who oppose the approach the FFPD government has taken in relation to transport planning. The trained professionals are being ignored in favour of short term electoral gain all over the island. It wasn’t my intention to disregard your opinions, You’ve done that yourself. The reason people like me use an architectural website is that town planning, transport planning, architecture and urban design all converge. One of ther greatest failings of the last 50 years has been the inability of people to see the link between the built environment and transport issues, both at a strategic level, and a local level.
not “transport professionals”, who would not, in my experience, oppose a vital motorway in such knee-jerk fashion.
It;s hardly knee-jerk, when you and your colleagues have been saying it for 5 years at least. Anyone who believes the M3 motorway is worthy of the rape of our heritage is not a planner.
Alonso. If I am debating with transport and planning professionals about this project, I imagine it is the transport and planning professionals that have never succeeded in their chosen career. Sometimes you have to put what in theory in an ideal world is maybe right in the back of your head and focus on what is right in this the real world. If you are transport and planning professionals that are writing on this thread well then you ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
I’m proud of the fact that my profession looks for the optimum solution to transport issues. I’m utterly ashamed that supposed Irishmen and women are willing to destroy our history for a road that will do absolutely nothing whatsoever to solve Meath’s or the region’s commuting problems. That’s right. Absolutely nothing. All it will do is bring more cars to the M50 and increase dependence on the private car; a failed mode. You are obviously unaware of the fact that many people in planning and design use this website as a resource and as a place to garner opinions on various issues. The recent JC Decaux scheme is a prime example, for me, of the usefulness of this site for this purpose.
If you think “what is right in the real world” is to repeat the mistakes of the UK, only on a smaller scale, then you are the one that ought to be ashamed, not me, or my colleagues in the design profession.
This road is forward planning. In 10/15 years I expect that this road will have a high capacity of traffic due to urban sprawl and further economic growth in Ireland.
Why do you accept ongoing urban sprawl as an inevitable outcome of economic growth? Are you that blinded by a decade of piss poor governance by the combnined cabbage coalition of Roche, Cullen and Dempsey as the last 3 ministers of the Environment, that you cannot see that there are alternatives to the manner in which our country has been pillaged by development interests? That’s very worrying for us all. You’re just going in completely the wrong direction; the 1950’s predict and provide method, largely, if not univerally discredited today. We should be seeking to minimise private car use.
Look at the m50 as a prime example. In its early planning stages no one foresaw the likelihood of economic and population growth and consequently before the road was officially finished it was too small!!
The M50 is a prime example of nothing more than lack of foresight, bad planning, and a good smattering of political corruption. It was supposed to be a bypass, but instead of consolidating the city into a public transport friendly higher density urban area, politics led to a sprawl beyond the bypass. This is being replicated all over the island as every small town grows out to meet it’s respective ring road. An Bord Pleanala went as far as to issue a press release warning of this danger.
By the way, you say no-one foresaw this problem? In 1985 the M50 was designed with free flow junctions but politicians of the day rejected it and put in traffic lights on roundabouts!!. The massive central median was put in for the exact reason to allow for extra lanes, so this, as you put it, unforeseen demand was in fact designed in by the engineers of the day
And the likely hood of de-zoning?? Not unless the Green Party get into power which is doubtful.
Whatever about the election, de-zoning is currently happening, and I know of one example where a landowner is seeking compensation. Expect this to be replicated in the next Kildare plan.
Overall I don’t want to sound anti-road, though I accept that I may have come across this way. I believe that ALL the major urban centres of Ireland should be connected by Motorway / High Quality Dual Carriageway / Single carriageway 2+1. Safe roads with no lights or towns on the route. I totally reject the current Dublin-centric approach. I reject the manner in which the archaic network has not been questioned. Instead we are merely upgrading the current links from N roads to motorways/ HQDC. I reject the argument that the M1, M2 and M3 are ALL needed. They are not, and never will all be needed. Building a motorway which goes to Navan towards Cavan and Enniskillen is a sick sick joke, given the costs to society in terms of heritage destruction and promotion of unsustainable travel patterns.
The solutions to the Meath commuting nightmare are not to be found on the M3. They are to be found by rezoning land in Navan for industry and Employment. They are to be found by dismissing the NSS, and taking a consolidation approach, ie concentrate a huge chunk of Meath’s growth in Navan, thereby creating the critical mass of people and services to make it as self-sufficient as possible. When all this occurs, there will of course still be a need for some to commute to Dublin. They should be facilitated by rail.
Any remaining car based commuter traffic from Navan to Dublin can be accomodated by building a HQDC to link up with the upgraded N2/M2, currently being discussed anyway as the DOOR project. This will save Tara and this new discovery from obilteration. Anyone who uses the “sure we wouldn’t have found out about this if it wasn’t for the motorway” argument is a complete fool.
It’s urgent that people such as the Green Party and other groups highlight the idiocy of the approach being taken over the last 10 years. Under the guise of the NSS, RPG and the decentralisation fiasco, the people of Ireland are being fed a crock that balanced regional development is occuring. It’s far far from it. All these motorways are merely compounding reliance on Dublin, choking the capital and starving the regions.
A Tory MEP, Roger Helmer, has tabled a question to the European
Parliment as follows:“Is the Commission aware that the Irish Government plan to build the M3
Road through historically significant sites, such as a Henge and Celtic
burial site?Does the Commission have any concerns regarding the environmental
and/or cultural impact of building this road?”At least the British are looking out for our heritage. But why aren’t FF “the Republican” party?
Greens call for M3 project to be halted
From ireland.com17:22Monday, 14th May, 2007
The Green Party has called for work on the M3 motorway in Meath to be halted following the recent discovery of a prehistoric circular “henge” at Lismullen.The party’s environment and heritage spokesman Ciaran Cuffe said the discovery of the site proved the unsuitability of the proposed route and he called for all work to come to an end, in particular the massive floodlit Blundelstown interchange.
Work on the project was halted two weeks ago after the large enclosure – which is believed to date from the Iron or Bronze age – was uncovered some 2km from the Hill of Tara.
The director of the National Museum, Dr Pat Wallace, has urged the Minister for the Environment Dick Roche to order a complete archaeological excavation of the site.
Mr Roche is considering a report from Dr Wallace after the National Monuments Service inspected the Lismullen site.
Mr Cuffe said the Green Party supported the upgrading of the existing N3 Road and the restoration of the Dublin to Navan rail line.
M3 Clonee to Dunshaughlin Bypass
Any future bypass identified as required in the next ‘National Road Needs Survey’ can be routed from the end of the Ashbourne Bypass on N2
This is Tara seat of the High Kings of Ireland
This is Tara seat of the High Kings of Ireland
This, PVC King, epitomises the difficulty I have with your argument. Unlike other anti-M3 people on this site, you want to argue two cases at once – (a) that we don’t need an M3 at all, AND (b) No road should be built through the Tara area. All other anti-M3 people are making do with one of these arguments – usually (b). I don’t agree with them – but I understand where they’re coming from. I don’t understand where you’re coming from at all.
On the one hand you bludgeon us over the head with endless statistics – e.g. 7.5% of freight movements – to prove that no M3 is needed. Then you posit far-fetched conspiracy theories e.g. that this is all a devious plot by toll-booth operators. And then in the next breath you’re making an illogical and emotive appeal to Celtic mysticism by stating that Tara was the seat of the high kings of Ireland.
I refuse to get bogged down in a debate over statistics and traffic movements. This road has been through the planning process and the High Court, and I am not going to second-guess what they’ve found. It looks a good enough system to me, with lots of democratic input, expert advise, ministerial accountability etc.
However, I will challenge you on this mysticism stuff, the idea that no thoroughfare can be put through this area, not even after the most painstaking work by the NRA to avoid any archaeological hazards, because several thousands years ago a few druids sat around sacrificing cows, or whatever it was that our Celtic ancestors got up to. There is no reason why we should have to tip-toe around forever more because MINOR archaeological finds may be made in this area.
I am not for a moment suggesting that monuments of genuine national importance should be protected, but I refuse to accept that just because Tara is 2km away over the fields that we cannot have a decent road link to Dublin. Once all the proper precautions are being taken, and the proper proecdures have been followed. Guess what? They have been.
Meanwhile, the £270 an hour you “fee”, is that sterling? Blimey.
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