The Tara Bypass – what they won’t tell you

Regardless of the pros and cons of the situation, this decision means both sides lose.

Legal objections are going to tie up progress for years to come. (In Ireland, and then, failing that…the European courts). Plus the added huge expense (on top of building it in the first place!) of contracting out the significant excavation work, entailing significant numbers of archaeologists, to eventually excavate the route. We know through geophysical survey, that there are at least 26 ‘sites’ of archaeological interest along the contentious part of the proposed route. (14.5km section from Dunshaughlin to Cannistown.)

http://www.p45blogs.net/globaleyes/archives/002074.html

Why are the government building this motarway if they know that it will be delayed for years and over-budgeted by millions (or even billions)?

Maybe that suits certain people?

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

Regardless of the pros and cons of the situation, this decision means both sides lose.

Legal objections are going to tie up progress for years to come. (In Ireland, and then, failing that…the European courts). Plus the added huge expense (on top of building it in the first place!) of contracting out the significant excavation work, entailing significant numbers of archaeologists, to eventually excavate the route. We know through geophysical survey, that there are at least 26 ‘sites’ of archaeological interest along the contentious part of the proposed route. (14.5km section from Dunshaughlin to Cannistown.)

http://www.p45blogs.net/globaleyes/archives/002074.html

not just archeological sites, we are talking about sites that should be un sanctioned world heritage sites, these are the most important archaeological sites in Ireland by some distance.

I agree;

it does seem strange that the Skelligs are a World Heritage Site but Tara is not, Tara is definitely much more of a cultural icon.

exactly how far is the proposed motorway from the historic site???? That is an important factor!!

Yes but Paul, what kind of precedent would it send if the government was to say: “this is the best route for the M3, but because environmental nutters are going to make our lives a misery for the next five years and delay the project in the courts, we’re going to move it elsewhere.” It would be a huge victory for the anti-road lobby, without them having to spend a penny or a day in court, and it would fuel their campaigns against other bypasses and motorways.

No, let them do their worst in court. A la Carrickmines and Glen of the Downes, the road will get built in the end and by-passing motorists will wonder what the hell the fuss was ever about

In relation to the 26 archaeological sites of interest, the question is how important are any of them? Should the march of a nation be held up because a Celt once sharpened a stone in a particular field? I think a site should be more than just “of interest” before a lot of money is spent excavating it…

@Sue wrote:

Yes but Paul, what kind of precedent would it send if the government was to say: “this is the best route for the M3, but because environmental nutters are going to make our lives a misery for the next five years and delay the project in the courts, we’re going to move it elsewhere.” It would be a huge victory for the anti-road lobby, without them having to spend a penny or a day in court, and it would fuel their campaigns against other bypasses and motorways.

No, let them do their worst in court. A la Carrickmines and Glen of the Downes, the road will get built in the end and by-passing motorists will wonder what the hell the fuss was ever about

In relation to the 26 archaeological sites of interest, the question is how important are any of them? Should the march of a nation be held up because a Celt once sharpened a stone in a particular field? I think a site should be more than just “of interest” before a lot of money is spent excavating it…

we are talking about a site that was the centre of Ireland for more than 2,000 years.

So the whole centre of Ireland has to be preserved? Give me a break, the road goes nowhere near the Hill of Tara. The current N3 is far closer

And who is the “they” in the title of this thread? Why do people forever attribute conspiracies to some vague “they” as if the people have no control of their own destinities. Most people actually want the M3 where it is, which is why it’s being built there.

As the people of France have just shown, “we” are in charge not “they”. Vive la revolution. On with the road building!!!!

They’re totally comparable. A motorway has one extra lane. So it’s nothing like comparing a three-storey with a high rise

Its a complete disgrace this country is actually planning on building a motorway 1.2 km from its most important historic site. Couldn’t they just deviate it a bit!!

@Sue wrote:

It would be a huge victory for the anti-road lobby, without them having to spend a penny or a day in court, and it would fuel their campaigns against other bypasses and motorways.

No, let them do their worst in court. A la Carrickmines and Glen of the Downes, the road will get built in the end and by-passing motorists will wonder what the hell the fuss was ever about

Sue youre either deliberately taking the piss or talking bollox – Woodstown viking site is now saved as the Waterford bypass is being rerouted. So there you go – historic site kept and road goes ahead; everybody wins, or am I missing something? Maybe I just haven’t noticed, but so far I don’t see an “anti-road lobby” celebrating!

@Sue wrote:

In relation to the 26 archaeological sites of interest, the question is how important are any of them? Should the march of a nation be held up because a Celt once sharpened a stone in a particular field?

The march of a nation to where? A place with excellent roads, but nothing to see except shopping malls. I can really see that as a selling point to tourists: ‘but sure don’t we have excellent roads!’

What a bunch of loony lefty tweedy conservation types infest this site. I think you’d all be better moving over to the An Taisce chatboard. This is supposed to be an architecture site – and you can’t build stuff without either knocking other stuff down or “destroying” a previously pristine landscape

@Sue wrote:

What a bunch of loony lefty tweedy conservation types infest this site. I think you’d all be better moving over to the An Taisce chatboard. This is supposed to be an architecture site – and you can’t build stuff without either knocking other stuff down or “destroying” a previously pristine landscape

I note you dont acknowledge the Woodstown reroute win-win for all. Sham argument on your part!

I find it hard to have sympathy for the commuters in these areas when I hear the local TDs on the radio. 🙁

I tend to think that the people that buy miles away from their jobs and social life know what they are doing. They get a larger, privately owned house than they would for the same budget in Dublin. But they then expect the state to spend a fortune on putting in a motorway so that they can drive daily to work. As if it’s an entitlement. This cost is not just hitting everyone on the island in the pocket, but is now robbing us of our cultural heritage too. I for one do not want to have to pay this price for them.

If I can abuse the idea of a “machine for living” – most homes are less that ideal in this regard. Trying to buy a home is a compromise from start to finish on location, size, standard etc. This compromise ends in a less than perfect living solution.
– The large but badly located dublin centered family commuter house out in louth is a faulty machine. The cost of “fixing” this fault is being addressed (however ineffectively) by building motorways at huge cost to us all. 😮
– If you look at the other end of the problem – a very small property near city center but unable to cater for a growing family would be the other type of faulty macine. Fixing this one gets less media coverage. You will get very little sympathy from anyone if you want to extend, and you certaintly wont get the rest of the country chipping in towards the cost. 😉

Why don’t you see who are the landholders along the N3 route – read it and weep, looks like a Ard Fheis guest list and I won’t say for which party, but (large hint) there seems to be a lot of developers there

been gathered for a few year appearently

@Rory W wrote:

been gathered for a few year appearently

Rory what’s your definition of a few?

There was a story in (I think) the Tribune about it – they’ve been buying up land around ther for at least 5 years supposedly

Rory Thanks for that little nugget of information I will try and locate it

When will the archaeology works start on the route?

today, actually.

From the RTE website

The High Court has rejected an application for an injunction which would effectively have stopped work on the M3 motorway.

The injunction would have possibly led to its re-routing from the Tara/Skryne Valley in Co Meath.

In his reserved judgement today, Mr Justice Thomas Smith rejected the application by campaigner Mr Vincent Salavia on all grounds.

The judge ruled that Mr Salavia had delayed in taking his legal action and that he did not have the legal standing to take the action in the first place.

The judge also ruled that the Minister for the Environment, Dick Roche, did not err in granting licences to allow archaeological works to proceed on 36 sites in the valley

Carrickmines M50 appeal is dismissed

The Supreme Court has dismissed an appeal in relation to the Carrickmines works on the southeastern route of the M50 in Dublin.

The works were completed last year, and the motorway opened, but the appeal had been continuing its passage through the courts.

The case was taken by Dominic Dunne against the Minister for the Environment and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council.

Mr Dunne occupied the Carrickmines Castle site in 2002.

It was argued that Section 8 of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act 2004, which introduced a special provision in relation to completing the M50 at Carrickmines Castle, was unconstitutional.

It was further argued that the 2004 Act contravened EU Directives, and that even if the Act did not, the Minister’s decisions did.

The Court unanimously rejected all the grounds of appeal.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0725/carrickmines.html

@Sue wrote:

Yes but Paul, what kind of precedent would it send if the government was to say: “this is the best route for the M3, but because environmental nutters are going to make our lives a misery for the next five years and delay the project in the courts, we’re going to move it elsewhere.” It would be a huge victory for the anti-road lobby, without them having to spend a penny or a day in court, and it would fuel their campaigns against other bypasses and motorways.

No, let them do their worst in court. A la Carrickmines and Glen of the Downes, the road will get built in the end and by-passing motorists will wonder what the hell the fuss was ever about

In relation to the 26 archaeological sites of interest, the question is how important are any of them? Should the march of a nation be held up because a Celt once sharpened a stone in a particular field? I think a site should be more than just “of interest” before a lot of money is spent excavating it…

:confused: I have no axe to grind one way or the other on this but if some “environmental nutters” were not dismissed on other projects Galway (and another 6-8 County’s in Ireland) may have drinking water that is above the quality of an open sewer in Bombay, 40% of the “essential” housing built in the past 4 years we were told we needed urgently would not be vacant, Georgian houses would not be demolished to make way for “landmark” steel and plastic piles.
🙂 At least the “nutters” won the day when the majestic Cobh Cathedral was to be vandalized in the name of progress?

Who else but the “culturally” sensitive Irish government would want to build a motor-way through Tara!! I do not, for example, see the French government wanting to build one through Carnac. Perhaps we should simply abandon any public effort to conserve our monuments and outsource the whole shebang to the French governmant. We are running out of solutions….

@Praxiteles wrote:

Who else but the “culturally” sensitive Irish government would want to build a motor-way through Tara!! I do not, for example, see the French government wanting to build one through Carnac. Perhaps we should simply abandon any public effort to conserve our monuments and outsource the whole shebang to the French governmant. We are running out of solutions….

Of course you wouldn’t, in France the people would storm the Bastille and Jacques Chirac would be found swinging from the nearest tree…In Ireland we would have a whip around and give our leader 50 grand so that he could open a piggy bank account.
Viva Le Republic…..the real one!!!

@kite wrote:

Of course you wouldn’t, in France the people would storm the Bastille and Jacques Chirac would be found swinging from the nearest tree…In Ireland we would have a whip around and give our leader 50 grand so that he could open a piggy bank account.
Viva Le Republic…..the real one!!!

There were bad riots in the Gare du Nord yesterday…all to do with “répression”…think of what will happen when the underdog goes topside in Ireland!

would that be soccer fields or gaa fields 😉

any word of what it is

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

any word of what it is

From today’s Times –

Tara ‘henge’ will be destroyed – claim
Tim O’Brien

Minister for the Environment Dick Roche has already issued draft directions that would allow for the destruction of the recently discovered “henge” along the route of the M3 in Co Meath, it was claimed yesterday.

The environmental group TaraWatch said Mr Roche had sent draft directions to the National Museum to preserve the henge “by record”, a process that would facilitate photographs and written records being made before the henge is removed.

Under Section 14A of the National Monuments Act 2004, if a national monument is discovered, the Minister is required to consult the director of the National Museum before deciding on what action to take.

Mr Roche told The Irish Times yesterday that he was in consultation with the National Museum, but he declined to elaborate on the nature of that consultation. Asked if he had sent draft directions to the museum to preserve the monument by record, as claimed by TaraWatch, Mr Roche repeated that he was “in consultation with the National Museum” and referred to his department’s previously issued comments on the discovery.

On Tuesday the department said: “The Minister has consulted with the director of the museum on the directions that would be most appropriate in this instance from the point of view of best archaeological practice. Directions will issue as soon as possible after the Minister receives the director’s response.

“The Minister is advised that the surviving elements of the monument are extremely fragile, underlining the need for an early decision on how to proceed.”

TaraWatch spokesman Vincent Salafia said the group had “well-placed sources within the National Museum” who were aware of draft directions that had been sent, which instructed that the monument be preserved by record.

Dr Mark Clinton, chairman of An Taisce’s national monuments and antiquities committee, said: “The discovery of what could be called a temple, after the fashion of a comparable discovery at Emain Macha, seat of the kings of Ulster, is of obvious major significance. Such sites are extremely rare.” He called for full scientific excavation to be followed by reconstruction.

Labour Party environment spokesman Éamon Gilmore said the issue could have been avoided if the Government had accepted a November 2004 proposal that the M3 be developed immediately in three sections, “and that the controversial section, running through the Skryne Valley, be rerouted”.

Fine Gael transport spokeswoman Olivia Mitchell has said she was “stunned” to learn that “more than 500 archaeologists, hired at a cost of €30 million, managed to miss a four-acre historical site while excavating for the new M3 motorway”.

© 2007 The Irish Times

@PVC King wrote:

FF really are running solo on this one

Fine Gael transport spokeswoman Olivia Mitchell has said she was “stunned” to learn that “more than 500 archaeologists, hired at a cost of €30 million, managed to miss a four-acre historical site while excavating for the new M3 motorway”
.
Jaysus – My primary degree is Archaeology and I ‘don’t like’ Fine Gael – but it’s a fair question.

And – holy cow! were there 500 archaeologists? (There were just 13 in my class back in early medieval times – and no jobs!)

Many were Ag Science Graduate as far as I am aware.

The sensible option is to record everything that’s there, preserve it carefully, seal up the site, and build the road over it. Whatever its importance, the site will be better protected under the ground (where it’s been for a few thousand years now) than exposed to the elements with people tramping round it.

I do hope Minister Roche doesn’t give in to all the environmentalist/archeologist hysteria by ordering a costly re-routing of the M3 elsewhere…..

Are you disputing that Meath needs a motorway, PVC King? If so, your argument is even weaker than I thought

Christ almighty, no wonder the development of this country is proceeding at snail’s pace when there are cranks like you about, with the energy to post 3,500 entries to websites complaining about everything and anything:mad:

Did I say 3,500? I meant 3,876. jesus wept. get a job, man

RAIL LINE RAIL LINE RAIL LINE

Where’s the Navan Rail Line?

oh yeh and Jobs, what about jobs. We should be cutting out the need to travel by private car not facilitating it with backward proposals like “let’s upgrade all the roads to Dublin, that’ll sort out regional developemnt!!!

especially Meath;s 4th Motorway/HQDC

Let’s just get on with it. Out with the old in with the new. That’s life we have to progress. A couple of old rotting wooden posts that are worthless surely cannot be used as an excuse to hold up an important road project like this. If we had that approach then we would achieve nothing. I hope this isn’t going to end up being another Carrickmines fiasco costing unnecessary millions of €uro and making Ireland the laughing stock of Europe, just because some loop the loops want to get a bit of publicity.

http://www.m3motorway.ie/FAQ/#one this link will answer any of your questions PVC!!

Look PVC you are obviously against progress. Irelands roads are in dire need of an upgrade. The M4/N4 is not relatively near this road and also the traffic volume would be greatly increased if traffic that will use the new M3was diverted to the M4/N4.

Oh Oh.

I win

You my friend LOSE.

HA!

You can come back with some rant if you want but just face up to the fact that the road is needed and will be built.

i don’t know if the road is needed, i don’t care if the road is needed.
The fact of the matter is that the hill is beyond doubt the most important site in ireland. the hill was the seat of the high kings of ireland. now that may not mean anything to you ‘planters’ but it means a hell of a lot to some of us.
the hill was the palace and surronding all capitals is the infrastructure of it. this incluses religious and ceremonial spaces. what they found is obviously one of them. to even consider a road 1200mm away is contemptious of our culture, our identity and our history. but fair enough due process was observed or so we were led to believe.
the fact that this is some pompous minister’s wet dream for his constituients is beyond reproach. there was mention of vive le revolotion by ‘sue’. i agree. let’s cut this persons balls off and hang him and his cronies from the nearest trees. there are some things that cannot be touched for personal gain.

Maybe it is time (well it is probably too late) to get international interest in this. The first thing to do is I believe rename the whole area to link it to bigger issues globally.

I would like to suggest that the Boyne Valley be redesignated as Ireland’s “Valley of the Kings”. Just think of all the discoveries by accident and design in the Egyptian equivallent .

There are interesting parallels in culture everywhere in the world at this time. Woudl Egypt plow a road through their valley of the kings?, sorry I guess they would (Aswan Dam)…. anyway you get my drift.

Maybe the next Indiana Jones/Amanda Croft/Da Vinci Code or other conspiracy could be filmed there.

The road is needed full stop. People who live in the areas where it passes through need and want it. Its construction alone will create jobs and as a direct consequence of the road property in the areas it passes through will increase in value. Businesses will want to locate close to the road creating more jobs. A few posts in the ground. Well go to any builders providers and Im sure you will find some similar ones. Probably not rotten and probably in better condition. Once you get them i suggest you dig a hole in your garden and put the postd in the ground. then go to the butchers and get a few bones and then the beach and a few stones and a few scraps of metal from a salvage shop. Then you can go and have fun looking at these things. the thoughts are exciting me…………..NOT.

THIS ROAD AND ALL SIMILAR ROAD PROJECTS TO FOLLOW ARE PROGRESS

THE ROAD IS CLEARLY NEEDED

ITS PEOPLE LIKE YOU PVC THAT SHOULD BE LOCKED UP IN A HOME FOR PROMOTING WASTEFUL USE OF MONEY AND RESOURCES.

THESE POSTS AND OTHER ANCIENT AREASWOULD NOT HAVE BEEN UNCOVERED IF THIS ROAD WAS NOT BEING CONSTRUCTED.

SO THEY WERE BURIED UNDER SOIL FOR THE LAST THOUSANDS OF YEARS SO IT WILL BE NO DIFFERENT IF THEY ARE BURIED UNDER A ROAD. PROBABLY BETTER FOR THEIR PRESERVATION.

GET OVER IT.

thanks. i just got annoyed at those idiotic ramblings.

meath co.co have done enough damage through zoning vast tracks of land that they should now stand up and say no.

and to anyone who ‘needs’ the road … move to kildare

Anyone in Meath who needs a proper road should move to Kildare? Congrats, Fin. That is officially the most stupid argument ever made on the Archeire site.

And yes, I read all 3,900 idiotic entries by PVC King before coming to my considered conclusion.

@Ihatecowboys wrote:

The road is needed full stop. People who live in the areas where it passes through need and want it….rant… rant… rant… Thats why opinion in the area is completely devided. Its construction alone will create jobs and as a direct consequence of the road property in the areas it passes through will increase in value. Plenty of land can then be re-zoned for more sprawl. Businesses will want to locate close to the road creating more jobs – requiring a further road to bypass the bypass. A few posts in the ground… rant… rant… Well go to any builders providers and Im sure you will find some similar ones. Probably not rotten and probably in better condition. Once you get them i rant… rant… rant…. rant… rant… rant… put the postd in the ground. then go to the butchers and get a few bones and then the beach and a few stones and a few scraps of metal from a salvage shop. Then you can go and have fun looking at these things. the thoughts are exciting me…………..NOT.

THIS ROAD AND ALL SIMILAR ROAD PROJECTS TO FOLLOW ARE PROGRESS

RANT RANT

THE ROAD IS CLEARLY NEEDED

AS IS PROFESSIONAL CARE FOR THE MENTALLY DERANGED

RANT

ITS PEOPLE LIKE YOU PVC THAT SHOULD BE LOCKED UP IN A HOME FOR PROMOTING WASTEFUL USE OF MONEY AND RESOURCES. RANT RANT RANT.

THESE POSTS AND OTHER ANCIENT AREASWOULD RANT RANT NOT HAVE BEEN UNCOVERED IF THIS ROAD WAS NOT BEING CONSTRUCTED. RANT RANT.

RANT RANT RANT

SO THEY WERE BURIED UNDER SOIL FOR THE LAST THOUSANDS OF YEARS SO IT WILL BE NO DIFFERENT IF THEY ARE BURIED UNDER A ROAD [CLEARLY A PROFESSIONAL OPINION HERE]. PROBABLY BETTER FOR THEIR PRESERVATION.

GET OVER IT.

Indeed. *yawn*.

jesus sue and Ihatecowboys, you’ve manged to turn the site into a rant fest. Can you not see the transport for the cars?

there are alternatives to destruction. This is not progress. It’s merely aping the failed transport policies of Britain in the 1950’s and 60’s. Go away and read a book, or do some research on the topic before polluting an otherwise mature, polite, and informative site with your ill, if not un, informed witterings. You are debating here with transport and planning professionals. Bear that in mind before you respond

I believe this thread now requires closing, moderator.

@ake wrote:

I believe this thread now requires closing, moderator.

Maybe – but I wouldn’t necessarily agree… Its as if PVCKing read the future when originally titleing the thread, given that the NRA subsequently did not reveal the existance of the temple / henge until their hand was forced…Just like what happened with the Viking longphort site at Woodstown, Waterford, in 2004 😮

Anyhow, if the thread does close, before it goes here’s a release that An Taisce put out regarding the temple site discovery…

Seems to sum it all up really. A total and predicted mess.

We are debating here “with transport and planning professionals” !! 🙂 Thank you for allowing us mere mortals to breathe the same air, Alonso.

But what, pray tell, are such professionals doing on an architectural website? They would be more at home making these arguments on Platform 11 or wherever. Anyway, the case being made by Fin etc. sounds more like what you’d hear from members of An Taisce or Friends of the Irish Environment – not “transport professionals”, who would not, in my experience, oppose a vital motorway in such knee-jerk fashion.

As for accusing us pro-M3 people of ranting, and demanding that that the thread be closed by the moderator, these are the last refuges of people whose arguments have been well and truly trounced. Like religious believers, the Stop the M3 people know, deep down, that they are wrong and only bleat all the louder in order to disguise their inner doubts from themselves.

Alonso. If I am debating with transport and planning professionals about this project, I imagine it is the transport and planning professionals that have never succeeded in their chosen career. Sometimes you have to put what in theory in an ideal world is maybe right in the back of your head and focus on what is right in this the real world. If you are transport and planning professionals that are writing on this thread well then you ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

At this rate this M3 situation could end up like the situation in carrickmines, costing millions, and in the end the road went ahead practically as planned. To discuss this issue in detail one would have to look at all the statistics, plans and strategies that have been developed that merit this road.

I have read many of PVC’s previous threads and it would appear that all PVC is doing trying to spread propaganda about anything.

Studies concerning the feasibility and need for this road have been carried out by highly qualified professionals.

Fine say we don’t need it. However 25 years ago one may have argued that the M50 was not needed or over designed. Now 25 years on with economic growth in Ireland and huge population growth in the Dublin region the M50 has reached its capacity and has to be modified.

This road is forward planning. In 10/15 years I expect that this road will have a high capacity of traffic due to urban sprawl and further economic growth in Ireland.

It is and it will be needed. All it is that Ireland are moving ahead of themselves at last and trying to leave the days of the m50 fiascos behind.

Fine its going to run through various areas of archaeology importance, but as I said before the knowledge of these areas would not have been fully exploited.

Please PVC don’t reply to this with useless rubbish on why it’s needed and how it’s 500% over designed or over budget or any silly comments like that. I suggest you read the EIS.

Closing this thread is just saying that people like PVC cannot bear facing the true facts.

Good research PVC. Now what year were these figures recorded?? 2005/2006 most likely. And what will these figures be in 10/15 years time?? I guarantee that they will be significantly greater. Look at the m50 as a prime example. In its early planning stages no one foresaw the likelihood of economic and population growth and consequently before the road was officially finished it was too small!!

Railway is a good alternative but what about the transport of goods? It would necessitate double handling to change from road transport to rail then back to road again! And the likely hood of de-zoning?? Not unless the Green Party get into power which is doubtful.

Not to turn this into a political debate but signs would point towards another term of FF. Good news for everyone involved in the construction industry! The thoughts of Sinn Fein in power worry me.

1500 is still a big number in terms of having sufficient facilities at either end of the track and all these increased movements will result in increased carbon emissions.

I’m surprised at the blinkered approach being adopted here, and also by the acceptance by people of backward outdated planning principles.

We are debating here “with transport and planning professionals” !! Thank you for allowing us mere mortals to breathe the same air, Alonso. But what, pray tell, are such professionals doing on an architectural website?

What I was trying to get across there was that there are qualified people all over Ireland who oppose the approach the FFPD government has taken in relation to transport planning. The trained professionals are being ignored in favour of short term electoral gain all over the island. It wasn’t my intention to disregard your opinions, You’ve done that yourself. The reason people like me use an architectural website is that town planning, transport planning, architecture and urban design all converge. One of ther greatest failings of the last 50 years has been the inability of people to see the link between the built environment and transport issues, both at a strategic level, and a local level.

not “transport professionals”, who would not, in my experience, oppose a vital motorway in such knee-jerk fashion.

It;s hardly knee-jerk, when you and your colleagues have been saying it for 5 years at least. Anyone who believes the M3 motorway is worthy of the rape of our heritage is not a planner.

Alonso. If I am debating with transport and planning professionals about this project, I imagine it is the transport and planning professionals that have never succeeded in their chosen career. Sometimes you have to put what in theory in an ideal world is maybe right in the back of your head and focus on what is right in this the real world. If you are transport and planning professionals that are writing on this thread well then you ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

I’m proud of the fact that my profession looks for the optimum solution to transport issues. I’m utterly ashamed that supposed Irishmen and women are willing to destroy our history for a road that will do absolutely nothing whatsoever to solve Meath’s or the region’s commuting problems. That’s right. Absolutely nothing. All it will do is bring more cars to the M50 and increase dependence on the private car; a failed mode. You are obviously unaware of the fact that many people in planning and design use this website as a resource and as a place to garner opinions on various issues. The recent JC Decaux scheme is a prime example, for me, of the usefulness of this site for this purpose.

If you think “what is right in the real world” is to repeat the mistakes of the UK, only on a smaller scale, then you are the one that ought to be ashamed, not me, or my colleagues in the design profession.

This road is forward planning. In 10/15 years I expect that this road will have a high capacity of traffic due to urban sprawl and further economic growth in Ireland.

Why do you accept ongoing urban sprawl as an inevitable outcome of economic growth? Are you that blinded by a decade of piss poor governance by the combnined cabbage coalition of Roche, Cullen and Dempsey as the last 3 ministers of the Environment, that you cannot see that there are alternatives to the manner in which our country has been pillaged by development interests? That’s very worrying for us all. You’re just going in completely the wrong direction; the 1950’s predict and provide method, largely, if not univerally discredited today. We should be seeking to minimise private car use.

Look at the m50 as a prime example. In its early planning stages no one foresaw the likelihood of economic and population growth and consequently before the road was officially finished it was too small!!

The M50 is a prime example of nothing more than lack of foresight, bad planning, and a good smattering of political corruption. It was supposed to be a bypass, but instead of consolidating the city into a public transport friendly higher density urban area, politics led to a sprawl beyond the bypass. This is being replicated all over the island as every small town grows out to meet it’s respective ring road. An Bord Pleanala went as far as to issue a press release warning of this danger.

By the way, you say no-one foresaw this problem? In 1985 the M50 was designed with free flow junctions but politicians of the day rejected it and put in traffic lights on roundabouts!!. The massive central median was put in for the exact reason to allow for extra lanes, so this, as you put it, unforeseen demand was in fact designed in by the engineers of the day

And the likely hood of de-zoning?? Not unless the Green Party get into power which is doubtful.

Whatever about the election, de-zoning is currently happening, and I know of one example where a landowner is seeking compensation. Expect this to be replicated in the next Kildare plan.

Overall I don’t want to sound anti-road, though I accept that I may have come across this way. I believe that ALL the major urban centres of Ireland should be connected by Motorway / High Quality Dual Carriageway / Single carriageway 2+1. Safe roads with no lights or towns on the route. I totally reject the current Dublin-centric approach. I reject the manner in which the archaic network has not been questioned. Instead we are merely upgrading the current links from N roads to motorways/ HQDC. I reject the argument that the M1, M2 and M3 are ALL needed. They are not, and never will all be needed. Building a motorway which goes to Navan towards Cavan and Enniskillen is a sick sick joke, given the costs to society in terms of heritage destruction and promotion of unsustainable travel patterns.

The solutions to the Meath commuting nightmare are not to be found on the M3. They are to be found by rezoning land in Navan for industry and Employment. They are to be found by dismissing the NSS, and taking a consolidation approach, ie concentrate a huge chunk of Meath’s growth in Navan, thereby creating the critical mass of people and services to make it as self-sufficient as possible. When all this occurs, there will of course still be a need for some to commute to Dublin. They should be facilitated by rail.

Any remaining car based commuter traffic from Navan to Dublin can be accomodated by building a HQDC to link up with the upgraded N2/M2, currently being discussed anyway as the DOOR project. This will save Tara and this new discovery from obilteration. Anyone who uses the “sure we wouldn’t have found out about this if it wasn’t for the motorway” argument is a complete fool.

It’s urgent that people such as the Green Party and other groups highlight the idiocy of the approach being taken over the last 10 years. Under the guise of the NSS, RPG and the decentralisation fiasco, the people of Ireland are being fed a crock that balanced regional development is occuring. It’s far far from it. All these motorways are merely compounding reliance on Dublin, choking the capital and starving the regions.

A Tory MEP, Roger Helmer, has tabled a question to the European
Parliment as follows:

“Is the Commission aware that the Irish Government plan to build the M3
Road through historically significant sites, such as a Henge and Celtic
burial site?

Does the Commission have any concerns regarding the environmental
and/or cultural impact of building this road?”

At least the British are looking out for our heritage. But why aren’t FF “the Republican” party?

http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=20316

This is Tara seat of the High Kings of Ireland

This, PVC King, epitomises the difficulty I have with your argument. Unlike other anti-M3 people on this site, you want to argue two cases at once – (a) that we don’t need an M3 at all, AND (b) No road should be built through the Tara area. All other anti-M3 people are making do with one of these arguments – usually (b). I don’t agree with them – but I understand where they’re coming from. I don’t understand where you’re coming from at all.

On the one hand you bludgeon us over the head with endless statistics – e.g. 7.5% of freight movements – to prove that no M3 is needed. Then you posit far-fetched conspiracy theories e.g. that this is all a devious plot by toll-booth operators. And then in the next breath you’re making an illogical and emotive appeal to Celtic mysticism by stating that Tara was the seat of the high kings of Ireland.

I refuse to get bogged down in a debate over statistics and traffic movements. This road has been through the planning process and the High Court, and I am not going to second-guess what they’ve found. It looks a good enough system to me, with lots of democratic input, expert advise, ministerial accountability etc.

However, I will challenge you on this mysticism stuff, the idea that no thoroughfare can be put through this area, not even after the most painstaking work by the NRA to avoid any archaeological hazards, because several thousands years ago a few druids sat around sacrificing cows, or whatever it was that our Celtic ancestors got up to. There is no reason why we should have to tip-toe around forever more because MINOR archaeological finds may be made in this area.

I am not for a moment suggesting that monuments of genuine national importance should be protected, but I refuse to accept that just because Tara is 2km away over the fields that we cannot have a decent road link to Dublin. Once all the proper precautions are being taken, and the proper proecdures have been followed. Guess what? They have been.

Meanwhile, the £270 an hour you “fee”, is that sterling? Blimey.

Sue – are you aware of how pointless this road actually is based on the statistics? Nobody begrudges the people of Navan a decent road link to Dublin City Centre (even though you’ll get as far as Blanch and are fucked from there anyway). Rail would make for a better solution in tandem with an upgraded N3 (not a motorway) – you can see from what is happening with the M1 that a ribbon development is building up alongside with retail parks (Balbriggan), Business Parks (large one going in at Gormanstown) and housing developments springing up tagged on to villages like Stamullen.

If the M3 is built all it will do is put pressure on the land surrounding the road to be redeveloped – thus Dublin sprawl will spread further along this route in an unplanned and wholly unneccessary fashion as is per usual in Ireland – this is a chance to call a halt to the developer led Dublin sprawl which is permanently destroying our landscape historical or not.

Oh and denying that Tara was the seat of the High Kings of Ireland is as pointless as denying that the Pharaohs had anything to do with the Pyramids or that Charlie Haughey was corrupt – it’s historical fact I’m afraid

Clearly neither of you are reading my posts:

PVC KIng, I’ve said I’m not engaging in a pointless bandying-about of statistics and traffic reports. An M3 is being built – you’ve lost that argument. I am happy to debate the precise route that M3 is taking

Rory W, I have NOT denied that Tara was the seat of high kings, or whatever. I have said this should not be a millstone around Meath’s neck in perpetuity. There is no problem with building a motorway 2km from the Hill of Tara once proper procedures are being followed, and proper precautions have been taken. They have been…

Far from being ridiculous, my position is held by most people in Ireland. You, PVC King, are in a very small minority. I note, for example, that the M3 is not an issue in Meath in this election.

I think the solution to this road is….

Build an M3, Navan etc need it IMO.
Remove the 2 tolls, one is enough.
Move the bloody thing. Fancy trying to build it next to the Hill of Tara. Thats just stupid no matter what way you look at it.

Put the thing on a different alignment , remove one of the tolls (or both) and noone would be making such a fuss.

Fix up the rail now too.

Im just always in disbelief and the number of times I say the words “How can they possibly be doing something so STUPID” is scary 😀

@Sue wrote:

Clearly neither of you are reading my posts:

PVC KIng, I’ve said I’m not engaging in a pointless bandying-about of statistics and traffic reports. An M3 is being built – you’ve lost that argument. I am happy to debate the precise route that M3 is taking

Rory W, I have NOT denied that Tara was the seat of high kings, or whatever. I have said this should not be a millstone around Meath’s neck in perpetuity. There is no problem with building a motorway 2km from the Hill of Tara once proper procedures are being followed, and proper precautions have been taken. They have been…

is newgrange and the battlle of the boyne heritage sites a millstone around meaths (or droghedas ) neck? located right next to drogheda as tara is to navan.

ps anybody got any visual of the heritage centre of BoftB or planning maps of the to be protected site of the battle.

yep and goddammit if only we could build a highway straight through Trinity College as well we’d be grand, and the Eastern bypass over Sandymount. I’m still p1ssed that the Inner Tangent wasn’t finished in the 80’s to get rid of all them ugly inner city residents. And don’t get me started on the Royal Canal motorway. Sue, you’re an insufferable ill-informed hack on transport issues.

And you have the cheek to accuse me of ranting 😀

You’ve just cut and pasted Rory W’s earlier contribution and put it down as your own? :confused:

you’ve run out of arguments of your own and now you’re just pasting in other people’s 🙂 hilarious. I hope the clients you “fee” £270 an hour get a better service than this!!

I doubt the M3 route can be moved at this stage. At least not without huge costs. Presumably contracts have been signed based on the current route.

The road will surely be a huge success so long as success is defined by
* the road having plenty of traffic queuing to get on and get off every morning and evening
* the enrichment of the local connected landowners through CPO, tract housing and retail parks
* the growth of Navan from a small provincial town into a small provincial town surrounded by the serried ranks of tens of thousands of suburban housing units

Silence is golden eh?

Taking care in digging deep into our past.

17 May 2007
Irish Times
(c) 2007, The Irish Times.

The NRA’s archaeological survey work on the route of the M3 has been diligent and thorough, suggests Fred Barry

The discovery of what the National Roads Authority (NRA) believes to be a national monument at Lismullin on the route of the M3 motorway has generated much comment about the archaeological investigative practices of the NRA and the nature and significance of the site.

The M3 project is the product of a four-year planning process which began in 1999, leading to An Bord Pleanála’s decision to approve the proposed motorway in 2003. This followed a 28-day oral hearing which addressed all issues of concern, including potential impacts on the Hill of Tara and the archaeology of the area.

That process, which included 10 route options, took into consideration engineering, the environment, archaeological sensitivities, safety and cost.

The selected route was regarded by the county council and the NRA as the best because it gave archaeological protection a high priority in balance with other needs such as:

avoiding house demolition where possible;

avoiding placing the motorway too close to houses;

limiting the fracturing of residential communities;

minimising the splitting and disruption of farms;

minimising visual, noise and air quality impacts;

ensuring the route fulfils its transportation purpose.

The authority takes seriously its responsibilities in relation to archaeology and commits significant financial and personnel resources to ensure that archaeology is dealt with at all stages in full compliance with legislation.

We expect to spend in excess of €200 million on archaeological work on national road schemes over the seven-year period of the National Development Plan. For the M3 project, we have spent €23 million to date on archaeology, and more than 400 archaeologists have been employed.

The M3 involved desktop, field and geophysical surveys, following which the scheme was archaeologically tested. Some 160 sites were identified in 2004, including Lismullin, and seven additional sites also came to light. This rate of discovery is consistent with experience on other national road schemes.

The interim results of this archaeological work have been extensively publicised via a dedicated M3 website ( http://www.m3motorway.ie ), NRA Archaeological Discoveries series leaflets, and articles in Archaeology Ireland and the NRA’s new archaeology magazine Seanda.

In relation to Lismullin, a total of 810 objects were recovered during the topsoil assessment and, typically, the majority of these were modern in the form of nails, bolts and other agricultural debris.

Upon completion of the topsoil assessment, careful mechanical topsoil removal commenced. This was carried out slowly, using flat-bladed buckets, and under constant archaeological supervision and control. The site was revealed to be a series of smaller sites of varying dates from Bronze Age to early modern.

The whole area was then trowelled by hand in order to identify all archaeological features. Additional features were identified during this phase of archaeological review. They consisted of a series of arcs of small stakeholes which were not visible prior to excavation, because surface evidence had been removed by centuries of ploughing. The stakeholes are small, shallow (15-25cm, six to 10 inches) and difficult to distinguish from the sub-soil.

No one archaeological assessment technique can identify all archaeological remains hidden below topsoil.

It is widely acknowledged throughout Europe that archaeological test trenching, as used by the NRA, is the most successful methodology for identifying such sites. A combination of extensive testing and geophysical surveys, as carried out on the M3, is acknowledged as archaeological best practice. It was the combination of these phases of careful and deliberate assessment that led to the discovery of the enclosure at Lismullin.

The significance of the site was established by NRA archaeologists, and an on-site meeting was held with both the Department of the Environment’s chief archaeologist and the director of the National Museum. Following this, the authority submitted its findings to the Minister, who will issue his directions in due course and the NRA will fully implement them.

The M3 will comprise a total of 110km (68 miles) of new road and a further 34km of access roads. Work is continuing, with the exception of a zone in the vicinity of the Lismullin site.

After years of delay during the planning period and legal challenges (all of which supported the professionalism of those acting on behalf of the NRA and Meath County Council), we look forward to finally improving the quality of life, and the safety, of today’s residents of Meath and Cavan.

Fred Barry is chief executive of the National Roads Authority

@Sue wrote:

Fred Barry is chief executive of the National Roads Authority

His opinion therefore on how good of a job he and NRA are doing is not objective or relevant.

Do you believe everything in a press release?

Nope. I just wanted to give disinterested readers of the forum a balanced perspective

Shame on me for bringing an article in the Irish Times to a wider audience? :confused:

So is it shame on the Irish Times for publishing the piece? Shame on the NRA for defending themselves and putting forward their perspective?

Or, are people you don’t agree with not allowed to express their point of view?

I didn’t say the article was balanced, I said I was posting it to this site in order to give neutral readers the other side to the story – to “balance” all the anti-M3 stuff being posted by yourself and others.

I think he means KM. I seem to remember the scheme being ~60km long, only slightly more than the N6 Galway – Ballinasloe which weighs in at 57km.

How many ads does the NRA take out in the Irish Times per annum? Of course they’ll print the press release

Look what the anti-Tara people are resorting to now – using dead dogs as propaganda weapons 😀

PRESS RELEASE

TARAWATCH.org

30 May 2007

‘TaraWatch Condemns Removal of Wolfhound Skeleton from Lismullen Henge,
While Roche Considers M3 Reroute’

Archaeological works are taking place today at Lismullen henge, the
newly discovered national monument in the pathway of the M3 motorway,
in the Tara-Skryne Valley. In particular, archaeologists are removing
the remains of a massive dog, which appears to be an Irish Wolfhound,
found fully intact in the vicinity of the enclosure.
Vincent Salafia of TaraWatch said:

“The dog was amazing. It was in perfect condition and had been very
carefully buried; but it is gone now. Its teeth looked about 6 inches
long. This was an important piece of evidence that indicated that the
site was a royal enclosure”

So we should stop building roads because there could be dead dogs buried underneath?? PVC, Rory W et al – I await your views. 😀

I couldn’t give a flying fuck about dog skeletons or Vincent Salifa – what I care about is the fact that a pointless motorway is being built that will only increase the sprawl of Dublin. This road is being built to facilitate developers (check who owns landbanks on the route) who will further spoilt the landscape (with it’s historical associations) throw in thousands of houses without facilities in the usual unplanned manner and who’s attendent increase in traffic lead to a further deterioration in the quality of life of those commuters who travel in to Dublin from Navan and Kells and grind to a halt when they reach Blanchardstown anyway.

Sue if you can come up with reasonable answers to the issues highlighted above and not glib postings that cut and paste the ridiculous arguments from either side, please post them.

@Sue wrote:

Look what the anti-Tara people are resorting to now – using dead dogs as propaganda weapons 😀

‘TaraWatch Condemns Removal of Wolfhound Skeleton from Lismullen Henge,
While Roche Considers M3 Reroute’

Hahaha!!! They made a funny. Old dog bones!? Next they will be telling us that old stones have archaelogical significance. Bulldoze the lot, that’s what I say.

I see the Green party have accepted that the M3 should go ahead as planned.

If it’s good enough for the Greens, it’s good enough for me!!!:D

Not this time – I have in the past

I think it’s highly significant that the Greens have bowed to FF on the entire roads programme, agreeing that every project in place should go ahead. They’ll probably get locally elected mayors instead of a rerouting of the M3. If I WAS a Green party supporter, I’d be cheesed off with a raw deal like that, I can assure u…

just to clarify: The roads that are to go ahead under the agreement may comprise purely the roads for which contracts have been signed. no-one is sure yet. The M3 is still open for a re-routing in light of recent discoveries anyway.

It’s not at all definite that we will have a Green tinge on our govt. In fact 2 seniors have already rubbished the deal, which is a total shafting of progressive administration in favour of a continuation of FF-right wing-Sue-PD planning and transport policy.

No matter what the Greens do tonight, no matter what roads are built in the future, no matter what M3 is built, the unnecessary destruction of Tara comprises nothing more than state-sponsored vandalism of the most backward, regressive and idiotic kind.

@alonso wrote:

No matter what the Greens do tonight, no matter what roads are built in the future, no matter what M3 is built, the unnecessary destruction of Tara comprises nothing more than state-sponsored vandalism of the most backward, regressive and idiotic kind.

Absolutely right. History will condemn us for letting it happen.

@alonso wrote:

No matter what the Greens do tonight, no matter what roads are built in the future, no matter what M3 is built, the unnecessary destruction of Tara comprises nothing more than state-sponsored vandalism of the most backward, regressive and idiotic kind.

Seconded. From today’s Irish Times:

Editorial –

The Greenfingerprints

Delegates to the special Green Party conference have confronted their core values, their conscience as the protest party, swallowed hard and opted to go into government with Fianna Fáil. Their parliamentary party made a mature decision because, in the world of politics, more can be achieved in government than in opposition.

Pragmatism won out over principle and, at the end of protracted, perhaps naive and certainly most unconventional negotiations, the Greens will be cabinet members in the first three-party Fianna Fáil-led government in the history of the State. And Trevor Sargent, in keeping with his election promise, has resigned as leader. What a catharsis!

It is clear when the programme for government with Fianna Fáil is analysed that cabinet membership and future political influence took precedence over immediate policy implementation. Policies of principle, such as the use of Shannon airport by the US military and the construction of the M3 at Tara, failed to tip the balance against the required two-thirds majority.

The package of measures that went before yesterday’s conference was strong on aspiration but short on specifics. In some cases, such as local government, electoral reform and a windfall tax on land speculation, it involved a reheating of old Fianna Fáil promises. In others, important, carefully circumscribed, policy concessions were extracted. A target for the reduction of carbon dioxide emissions was agreed. A carbon tax was proposed during the next five years. On the controversial hospital co-location programme, disagreement arose between the Green Party and the Progressive Democrats on what, precisely, had been agreed with Fianna Fáil.

There is no doubt that the fingerprints of the Green Party appear on key elements of the draft programme for government. But it lacks a solid Green footprint. The concessions secured are important and environmentally progressive but not, as the PDs were able to boast on entering government with Fianna Fáil in 1989, mould-breaking. Green Party negotiators have sold the draft programme as a work in progress and promised that further advances could be expected during the life of the government.

The so-called “deal breakers” that Mr Sargent specified during the course of the election campaign were quietly forgotten. A demand for extra spending on education was significantly scaled back, as was a requirement for more energy-efficient building regulations. But a €100 million fund for better home insulation was agreed. No obvious progress was made on party policy affecting tax cuts and reliefs, VAT rates and capital gains tax.

With six Dáil seats at their command, Green Party negotiators were never going to get all the concessions they wanted. In a three-party configuration, the Taoiseach, with 78 seats, could depend on the PDs and a number of Independent TDs to return him to government. It was a hard call in the end which may haunt the Greens.

© 2007 The Irish Times

From “Breaking News”, Times website –

Last Updated: 15/06/2007 09:27
Gormley to review Roche’s M3 decision

The Green Party’s new Minister for the Environment John Gormley is expected to review a decision by his predecessor Dick Roche to allow a motorway to be built over an historic monument in Co Meath.

In one of his final acts in office, Mr Roche on Tuesday signed an order for the “preservation by record” of the recently-discovered prehistoric henge at Lismullin, Co Meath, on the route of the proposed M3. Campaigners have called for the road to be re-routed in order to preserve the historic site

It is understood the Green party is deeply unhappy at the decision and was unaware of Mr Roche’s order when negotiations for government were taking place. It is unclear, however, if Mr Gormley can reverse Mr Roche’s decision.

Mr Roche decided the henge at Lismullin should be photographed, sketched and measured before the motorway goes through the site. “The excavation works and recording are to be carried out in advance of any road construction works in the vicinity of the National Monument,” he said in a statement.

Mr Roche said he signed the order on the advice of the Director of the National Museum Dr Pat Wallace.

“The Minister is satisfied, on the basis of the advice he has received, including that of his Department’s Chief Archaeologist and that of the Director of the National Museum that the approach set out in the directions he has issued is the most appropriate one from an archaeological point of view,” the statement said.

This morning, the Green Party’s Ciarán Cuffe said he hopes Mr Gormley will be able to rescind Mr Roche’s order when he assumes office.

“One has to look at decisions made on the day of leaving office. I don’t know if it’s possible to change them but I’d hope that we can,” the Dun Laoghaire TD said. “I’d hope that when the next crisis emerges on heritage issues, we’ll have a minister who is very capable of ensuring that heritage is at the top of the agenda.”

Muireann Ní Bhrolcháin of the Campaign to Save Tara also condemned Mr Roche’s actions. “Tara is not only one of the 100 most endangered sites now. It is the most endangered landscape in the world.”

Vincent Salafia, of the TaraWatch campaign group said he would be taking legal advice on the latest move. “We are asking Minister Gormley to do the same thing that Minister Roche did to 16 Moore Street; declare the entire site, along with neighbouring houses, a national monument.”

Vincent Salafia is “taking legal advice”. What a joke. Is he implying that if his lawyers were to advise him NOT to take legal action that he’d comply?

No, this man of straw will be back in the Four Court quicker than you can say “on a no foal no fee basis”. Even though the courts have now ruled against him, by my rough estimate, three times. Who’s propping up this man of straw? Why don’t Salafia’s financial backers sue themselves? It’s about time the judiciary stood up to this nonsense, which has blighted almost every major infrastructural project in this country over the last decade.

Roche’s decision, taken on the advice of the National Museum, was spot on. And the Greens can stamp their feet all they like – had they made the M3 a make or break issue in the formation of government talks, Roche couldn’t have done what he did.

So long Dick. You have done the state some service. 😀

What I find utterly ridiculous about it is that the only reason this major highway is needed is due to pathetic planning.

If we’d proper planning, the towns it serves wouldn’t have Dublin housing estates added onto the sides of them. It’s utter madness that anyone’s even contemplating commuting as far as Navan or Cavan on a regular basis. Dublin’s not THAT big.

Couldn’t agree more. The M3 would never even have been an option if Dublin had been planned properly over the last 10 years and sprawl across Leinster had been contained.

Providing a motorway to Navan and Cavan will only continue to encourage developers to provide inappropriate housing on the edge of small towns and villages for long distance commuters along this route.

We still aren’t learning – the proposal to redevelop Ballsbridge at a higher density (and yes, with high rise – OMG, how scary!) would provide for hundreds of housing units close to the city centre and beside a major public transport service (DART). Going for higher densities in Dublin (not just in Ballsbridge – this will be very expensive accommodation and not a likely draw for 1st timers) surely makes better sense than forcing people to look as far away as Cavan.

Also balance this with competing urban centres other than Dublin that can provide jobs for people who live close by and stop the relentless commuting to the capital.

Point is – the M3 is simply adding another major error to the litany of mistakes already made.

Hopefully this will be the end of this Tara nonsense. The whole mess was created at the start. Im not a big fan of Mr. Roche. But finally sense may have prevailed. If the best advice the government can count on gives the go ahead, then so be it.
A lot of money has been squandered on this project. However I cannot place all the the blame for this one on the former minister. At the end of the day he can only rely on the advice given to him. Id be looking for the monkeys that surveyed the site originaly tho!
Its strange I was all for re-routing the motor way at the beginning but now that the facts are laid on the table, the only logical thing to do is continue as planned. Besides it would have been so much easier for Roche to put a halt to the works now. He has funnily gone up in my estimation. We need people in power who will make the hard decisions even at the expense of their own jobs.
I am not happy over the mess but I do prefer to see common sense win the day!
Good luck to Jon Gormely he has the potential to be a man who makes the hard decisions….time will tell.

Dan Boyle, posting on http://www.politics.ie has just stated

“On Tara stopping already started construction work has proved beyond us. For the record I did not say that I knew that Dick Roche was going to make his decision when he did. What I said was we knew the decision was pending. Our hope was that the decision would be left unmade and considered by John Gormley as the new minister. I have publicly stated that I was unhappy with the way the decision has been made. However I also believe that by being in charge of the departments we are we have the means of influencing the varying or the moving of the road.”

in one of a million threads on the Green government
http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=23338

I think the Greens may be useful – for want of a better word they will keep an eye on FF, and will bring otherwise unseen problems to the attention of the media.

Even though they mightnt have the numbers, they can whistle-blow a lot of FF crap that may or may not go on.

I heard over the weekend from a fairly reliable source that in fact the Greens asked Roche to sign off on Tara before they got into office and hence deflect the bullet from their own foot. The Greens could not get an agreement to prevent the proposed mortorway crossing in the vacinity of Tara and the only way they could prevent an embarrassing situation for their own new Green minister was to make an agreement during the negotiations that if the motorway was to proceed then Dick Roche had to do it before they entered office. Roche’s decision has meant Tara will be crossed but the Greens blushes will be saved and a stormy unstable intoduction for the new government was prevented.

There was a debate on the M3 on RTE the other night, including Frank McDonald and Noel Dempsey, that you can view here:
http://www.rte.ie/news/qanda/
It pretty much followed the path of this thread- a mishmash of a number of arguments.

the value of the particular archaeology of Lismullin
whether building commuter motorways is a good idea
whether a reroute is feasible
whether the public consultation process is a worthless sham
whether the project is an inefficient vehicle to transfer cash from the state to politicaly well connected individuals

The discussions are confusing because most people include a variety of the above separate questions in their views of the m3.

Since the N3 is a go, with or without Lismullen how about some solutions in order of preference;

1: Reroute completely (unlikely and you might hit something else)
2: Reroute around Lismullen, the world’s most historic roundabout.
3: Raise the whole of the N3 on columns as it crosses the valley, a technique used to deal with difficult terrain in Europe and an agreed technique in areas like temple bar to preserve the maximum area for archaeology. In addition it could allow continuous archaeological work.

So given the above could we have a serious investigation into 3 and put some additional monies into the project to preserve all interests…….

The third one would cost an unnatural amount of money and would look far worse than the M3 will as it currently will be.

Alternatively make the M3 a Spur off of the completed M(N)2 which is motorway grade as far as the Northside of Ashbourne to the M50. Continue as per the red lines marked in the map below (note that there is a plan already to continue the upgrade works on the N2 to Bypass Slane anyway).

Also look at the scale of the map in the bottom right corner and tell me that this area warrents 3 motorways through it.

Shadow, 3 is an excellent idea – well worth investigating. Any idea how much it would add to the cost? (Mind you, we’re good for the extra cash. Worth paying whatever it is to keep the likes of Salafia delaying this project forever and to give the good burghers of Meath the same sort of motorway access to das kapital that everyone else is enjoying)

stilts? my God. Sue do you own land in Meath?
the likes of Salafia are trying to stop the likes of you from molesting Irish history and heritage.

How exactly could I or anyone else “molest Irish history”? Try and have a little think before you commit your words to the interweb

Equally absurd, if slightly more linguistically coherent, is the idea that an elevated road could “molest Irish heritage”. The point of the stilts is to lift the motorway above Irish heritage (which in this case mainly costs of some dead dogs and kings).

oh good jesus sue, do you really think an elevated highway would have less impact on the landscape? The word “molest” was used because words such as destroy, vandalise, adversely impact, ruin etc etc have been overused. Nothing wrong with a bit of linguistic variety.

I can’t believe a supposedly mature adult who seems to have an interest in these issues could seriously come out with the statement that stilits would “lift the motorway above Irish heritage”. That’s enough to have you committed.

@Sue wrote:

How exactly could I or anyone else “molest Irish history”? Try and have a little think before you commit your words to the interweb

Equally absurd, if slightly more linguistically coherent, is the idea that an elevated road could “molest Irish heritage”. The point of the stilts is to lift the motorway above Irish heritage (which in this case mainly costs of some dead dogs and kings).

‘dead dogs and kings’?

Do you not realise what you’re saying? These remains are invaluable! They are the miniscule, vanishingly small fragment that has survived of the material of whole civilizations and cultures about which we know almost nothing. Don’t you have any interest in the world beyond how easy it is to drive about in, in your lifetime?

Every rib bone, jaw bone and tooth is a remarkable, priceless survival, a unique opportunity for knowledge. We don’t actually have time machines you know- we can’t just go back and get more of this stuff when we destroy it. It’s gone forever- and remains are not in abundance as you’ll probably try to say. You could fit everything that has survived of the pre-modern eras in Ireland into a small warehouse- that’s thousands and thousands of years of civilization, spoken for by a small warehouse! To destroy any of it is demented.

What about sinking the road?
20 ft below street level and vista is undisturbed
They did it central park here 150 yrs ago and it works brilliantly

That is true
Its an idea to appease both sides
if the road is not seen then it would really be a win win, no?

The road is not needed in the first place

All it is being built for is to continue the sprawl.

It should be stopped on the grounds of planning sanity if nothing else

@paul h wrote:

That is true
Its an idea to appease both sides
if the road is not seen then it would really be a win win, no?

What, and will they sink the retail park that inevitably comes with it too??

And what about the Bewleys Historic Hill of Tara Hotel? Will That be underground also??

the unique archaeological landscape of Tara

Nonsense. Newgrange is unique. Tara has, so far, produced two minor monuments

thousands and thousands of years of civilization, spoken for by a small warehouse! To destroy any of it is demented.

Read that slowly again “to destroy ANY of it is demented”. This man wants us all to live in a museum, and wear white gloves all day….

Sue

Get your nose back in the pig trough

Your logic is so persuasive, Walker. I’ve competely changed my mind about the M3….

Fair play to John Gormley… he’s playing a blinder so far, completing ignoring the ranting, raving, hyping, lying, exaggerating and obfuscating of Tarawatch and Salafia. Their claim last weekend to have found “another” national monument on the M3 has been exposed for the charlatanism it is.

Bad news for you anti-M3 people….. the minister for the environment, the GREEN minister for the environment, might just let it stand!! :p

The Tara area has probably got the highest density of National monuments in the state

Justify this comment, if you dare. You might start by defining “area”, and you might also explain how you are excluding “areas” that have never been excavated.

Also explain why you are saying it “probably” has more monuments than such clearly archeologically rich “areas” as Wood Quay in Dublin, and Newgrange/Knowth

Sorry PVC, forgot what a busy and well remunerated young man you are. Time is money, what? 🙂

You could always reply to my searing critiques of your flawed arguments outside office hours yourself….

@Sloan wrote:

Mr Gormley added he still views incineration as the disposal of waste rather than waste recovery, despite an EU Council decision last week.

From RTE http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0701/gormleyj.html

Well he’s a tit and a great representative of the ‘Green’ party.

Heritage Protection Alliance of Ireland (HPAI)
Press release 27th June 2007

0. Acting in a private capacity, Mr. Stephen Devaney B.L. and Dr. Mark
Clinton of the HPAI have lodged a complaint regarding the imminent
destruction of the Prehistoric Temple site at Lismullen, Tara, Co.
Meath with the Environmental Dept. of the European Commission.

0. Under EU Directive 85 / 337 / EEC demolition/destruction of a
structure/building of Cultural Significance can represent an integral
part of development requiring EIA. It is our contention that the
Lismullin Temple falls within the remit of this EU Directive (aka
Environmental Impact Assessment [EIA] Directive).

0. In other words Mr. Dick Roche’s ‘destruction order’, in the absence
of a new EIA, would therefore be null and void.
0. There are a number of questions that might be addressed to Mr. Roche.

0. Q. Was he aware of EU Directive 85 / 337 / EEC?
0. Q. Was he aware that its scope indicates that demolition works can
represent an integral part of developments requiring
EIA?
0. Q. Has there been any correspondence on the issue with the EU Commission?
0. Q. If there was- When? Not Recently? Recently? i.e. immediately
prior to the signing of the ‘destruction order’? Or, was there no
correspondence at all on the issue?
0. Q. Would Mr. Roche, as Minister for European Affairs, not feel
obliged to call on the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and
Local Government to place a moratorium on any demolition works at
Lismullin pending a legal clarification from the EU Commission?
Q. Would Mr. Roche not accept that if our interpretation of EU
Directive 85/ 337 / EEC is correct then his ‘destruction order’ is
contrary to EU law, and thus effectively null and void?

What sort of character creeps around at 4am to carry out destruction?

The sort who needs to avoid environmental nutters who prowl around all night “protecting” sites that are “possible candidates” as national monuments even though, er, they have been “rejected” as national monuments by the Department of the Environment.

The early bird caught the worm…

When protesters arrived
at 6am

Too late suckers….

another arrogant post by sue after another disgusting attack on Ireland.

how are those shares in NTR doin sue?

Thankfully the motorway is well underway now and there is nothing that can be done about it. Will the eco nazis leave the site now?

you’re asking people who care about the environment to leave a website about architecture and planning? that’s gotta be a first

I think darkman means ‘site’ in the old fashioned sense of the word, alonso, i.e. the M3 site. 🙂

@alonso wrote:

you’re asking people who care about the environment to leave a website about architecture and planning? that’s gotta be a first

lol! – the M3 site:D

d’oh!!!

i sometimes get confused with my “superhighways” and my “connections speeds” …
it was a good one though.

anyway back to the M3. Booooo!!! or to quote sidewinder on politics.ie

“It’s time for direct action methinks. The FF scumbags have absolutely no shred of honour, conscience, basic human decency. Tey are parasites sucking our nation dry. They must be stopped.

Appeals to reason, culture, heritage, the nation simply will not work. All these soul-less evil treacherous men care about is their own pockets.

Attack the building site. Smash the equipment. Batter the scum willing to work on the site. Ostracise them in wider society. If you know someone on your street is working on the M3, tell everyone and have people throw rotten eggs at them every time they leave the house.

Scum, scum, scum, scum. Anyone involved in the M3 basically deserves to be put against a wall, and would be in nearly any other country on Earth. Fight back, relentlessly, without mercy. This cancer needs to be ripped out of Irish society – while there still is such a thing as Irish society!”

http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?p=742070&sid=fe45e8ff1a14e12bfcd3091e12e78b14#742070

now that’s debate!!!

I can see why they’re doing that but damn will that ever hold projects up and waste money. 🙁

This is disgraceful… However the real question is why the rush to build the Blundelstown Interchange?

Anyone for a game of rezonings? 😡

[quote=”Campaign To Save Tara
Press Release – Immediate Release 18-July”:3dh4dfu1]

Save Tara Campaign Condemns Imprisonment of Peaceful Protesters

The Campaign to Save Tara condemns today’s imprisonment of four peaceful
protesters arising out of today’s protests at the site of the proposed
Blundlestown interchange in the Tara/Skryne Valley.

The trouble was sparked when contractors and security personnel acting for
SIAC/Ferrovial attempted to establish a machinery depot in the middle of the
Valley, at the proposed site of the 25-acre Blundlestown interchange.

Minister Gormley who has previously spoken out against the proposed
route of the M3 was particularly vehement in his opposition to the
siting of a massive intersection so close to the summit of the Hill of Tara.

The four men, two from the locality, one from Donegal and the other an
English national were arrested under Public Order legislation. Three
Irish women including Save Tara spokesperson Dr. Muireann Ni Bhrolchain
were also arrested but later released.

Muireann Ni Bhrolchain said]

Meanwhile, from yesterdays Irish Times:

@Irish Times wrote:

Dublin ‘Love Tara’ march to call for rerouting of motorway
Jamie Smyth in Brussels

Campaigners protesting against the route of the M3 motorway near the Hill of Tara are to hold a “Love Tara” march and demonstration in Dublin on Saturday.

TaraWatch will hand in a petition with 50,000 signatures calling on Taoiseach Bertie Ahern and Minister for the Environment John Gormley to reroute the M3 motorway away from the Tara archaeological complex.

Meanwhile, campaigners in Brussels presented a petition, signed online by 12,000 people, calling for a halt to work on the site, to EU and Irish officials yesterday. The petition asks the Taoiseach to intervene personally to choose an alternative route for the motorway.

Fionnuala Devlin, spokeswoman for Protect the Tara International Campaign, said people throughout Europe thought the Government was acting “like the Taliban” by destroying part of its unique archaeological heritage.

“Most of the people who signed the petition are from Germany. But we also have people from Ireland, the US, England Australia and other countries,” said Ms Devlin, who has co-ordinated an international campaign to save the Hill of Tara from the proposed route of the M3.

She presented the petition to the Irish Embassy and the Irish permanent representative office to the EU in Brussels. She also presented it to the petitions committee in the European Parliament and to the commission’s environmental directorate. MEPs on the petitions committee have agreed to send an urgent letter to Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas requesting that he intervene to immediately halt any further work on the site of the M3.

Mr Dimas has already written to the Irish Government warning that aspects of the planned motorway, just one kilometre from the Hill of Tara, could be in breach of EU law.

Munster MEP Kathy Sinnott, who attended the petitions committee meeting, said MEPs had also agreed to write to Mr Gormley, Mr Dimas and the chair of Meath County Council to have any further work halted.

Ms Sinnott said she hoped the presentation of the signatures would convince the Government “that Tara is a historical and valuable area that extends beyond our shores”.

Vincent Salafia, one of the organisers of the Dublin parade said he hoped the protest would be peaceful.

Marchers will gather at 12.30 at the Garden of Remembrance and march up O’Connell Street to the Department of the Environment at Custom House Quay.

Mr Salafia said more than 10,000 of the signatures were taken in the last week alone, which he claimed was evidence of a turning point in the debate following the recent intervention by the EU Commission.

Laura Grealish of TaraWatch said: “We want to compel a political solution, rather than being forced to go to court.”

© 2007 The Irish Times

A “Love Tara” march in Dublin? What sort of image does this imply; what other march in recent years had a “Love

---

” in the title? Oh let me see now, wasn’t it the “Love Ulster” march which predictably ended in a riot? Such nasty, hostile, and discrediting connotations as the loaded title are further compounded by Mr. Salafias quote that he “hoped the protest would be peaceful”.

This is all a real shame as it seems to me that it discredits/ alienates others from an otherwise incredibly important issue.

Why does the media continue to give an unjustifiable space to Mr. Salafia, a seemingly rather devisive individual – particularly when there are plenty of credible sorts such as Conor Newman, Muireann Ni Brolichain, Julitta Clancy etc?

It seems to me that Mr Salafias agenda is not neccessarily as pure as it may first seem… And all the time destruction continues at Tara. 🙁

I say keep Salafia where he is: he does the Tara case more harm than good, fair play to him

Now listen up kids: here’s the most important article on Tara written this week:

State expert plays down impact of M3 on the Hill of Tara
21 July 2007
Irish Independent
(c) 2007 Independent Newspapers Ireland Ltd

A SENIOR state archaeologist last night said fears about the impact of the controversial M3 motorway on the Hill of Tara had been misplaced.

The National Roads Authority’s (NRA’s) Mary Deevy said she believed the proposed road would not impact on the Tara landscape in Co Meath.

She also said the road was further from the ancient site than the existing carriageway. Ms Deevy was speaking as she gave journalists a guided tour of the archaeological excavations at the newly discovered national monument at Lismullen, near the Tara monument, which she agreed should be preserved by record.

This comes as environmentalists plan to take to the streets of Dublin tomorrow for a ‘Love Tara’ march, before presenting the Government with a petition demanding the road be re-routed.

“I think Tara is a very special place, but I think some people have overestimated the impact (of the motorway),” Ms Deevy said.

“There is no way to change their minds until the project is finished and they can see for themselves.”

Ms Deevy reiterated the State’s position that the motorway would not impact on the Tara monument and would be further from the ancient site than the existing road.

She added some fears about the future development of the Tara area were legitimate, but said a landscape conservation scheme was being considered by Meath County Council which had been included in the current county development plan.

gasp shock. Woman employed by NRA says we should build a motorway!!! is this the best you can do? It’s further away therefore it’s grand. It’s like demolishing a bungalow and buiding Liberty Hall 20 yards further from the public road.

Having read the thread, I’m amazed to see the future of the endemic corruption and myopic vision that has formed such a part of Ireland’s recent development is secure in the hands of so many subscribers to this site.

Please don’t anyone dare to quote an expert or authority no matter how qualified or esteemed the archaeologist is from DOE or NRA in saying that what is currently being destroyed is not of international significance. They know where their bread is buttered and are more worried about their mortgages, bonuses and pensions than any mound of earth in Meath, they are simply props for their employers.

Just so you’re aware, the so called ‘experts’ at the time from the governing bodies and the national university institutions also stated that the Newgrange complex itself was a simple burial chamber of no significant importance. This is a documented fact. It was only due to the diligence of some amateur archaeologists, who literally broke into the monument and explored the portal, surrounding chambers and carvings in the dead of night that the whole truth about the sheer complexity and scale of the Newgrange site was exposed for all the world to share and marvel at, how it related to celestial and solar events as well as alignments with other sites over a large radius. And just so you know its still under investigation as all its secrets have not yet been revealed. Martin Brennans “Stones of Time” covers much of this clandestine work conducted by people who would be referred to as eco-Nazis by those in the pro-M3 bypass ‘camp’ . (camp seems a bad word to use for these people with its connotations of dirt and earth and mud, maybe the pro-M3 ‘gated-community’ would be more appropriate)

Anyways please don’t quote an expert saying what is being destroyed now is not of significance, you or they simply cant know for sure. Suffice to say that if the same logic those who are pro the current M3 routing was applied then, potentially we would not have Newgrange, a location paraded for all the world to see on all current government, tourist and heritage forums.

It all smarts of those US marines during the fall of Baghdad, who stood armed guard outside the Iraqi Oil ministry whilst next door the looters pillaged the Iraqi museum of antiquities. As least they had an excuse and were under orders, we seem to be bulldozing our way through our heritage of our own free will. The guilty know who they are, may the sins of the father and mother(Sue) rest on your sons and daughters, unfortunately my kids will suffer too.. f*&k it!

The route is chosen – the road is under construction. Its interesting that you and others come out protesting at the top of your voices only AFTER the planning process was complete. Also lets not mention no one gave a sh*te about the Hill of Tara before the M3 was planned. I know because I was a regular visitor there. End of story. The road is further away then the current N3. No sympathy.

@darkman wrote:

The route is chosen – the road is under construction. Its interesting that you and others come out protesting at the top of your voices only AFTER the planning process was complete. Also lets not mention no one gave a sh*te about the Hill of Tara before the M3 was planned. I know because I was a regular visitor there. End of story. The road is further away then the current N3. No sympathy.

yep and sellafield is further away than that fiat uno with the dodgy exhaust in the car park, but I;m more concerned about the former. Yours is an argument made redundant a million times over.

I would move on but sadly the well connected landowners of Meath have dictated that the train line to Navan would be postponed indefinitely. Talk about infrastructure deficit? no need to look at roads. Line BX, Metro North Metro West, Bray LUAS, QBCs. new buses, T2, Citywest LUAS, etc etc

@alonso wrote:

I would move on but sadly the well connected landowners of Meath have dictated that the train line to Navan would be postponed indefinitely. Talk about infrastructure deficit? no need to look at roads. Line BX, Metro North Metro West, Bray LUAS, QBCs. new buses, T2, Citywest LUAS, etc etc

Yes and all are progressing as far as im aware. I take a very dim view of wasting tax payers money – my money, your money. However when roads and other projects are held up every day that costs us (the tax payers) in one form or another. I am not unsymphatetic to heritage or the environment but the time to argue against the M3 was when the plan first appeared 7 or 8 years ago now. That did not happen. It went through the planning process pretty much unchallenged. Thats democracy. So the protestors should stop wasting our time and money and accept that they were too late off the mark with this. Any Carrickmines or Glen of the Downs type nonsense is only going to really annoy the general public far from gaining them any support.

Also no one should claim corruption unless they have solid evidence to prove it. Its not fair on those in the NRA who are just doing their jobs. Whatever about county councillors – who I have VERY little time for but still please provide evidence before making accusations IMO.

Well considering I made no accusations of corruption, I’ll ignore your advice, while passively endorsing it.

I’m also confused as to your stance on taxpayers money. Fianna Fail are building 3 parallel motorways through Meath only a hairs breath apart. to serve little but commuter sprawl, adding to the costs of all that goes with a car dependent culture. So you’re happy for money to be flushed down this particular toilet but not when people try to stop this? A lesson in sustainable development for you my friend – it relates as much to pollution as it does to economic sustainability. If you ever have the pleasure of hearing Eamonn Ryan speak on this matter, you should listen carefully.

Darkman I’m undererwhelmed by yours and others argument for the M3 … stuff like “the road is under construction, its over, why don’t you just move on” “and no one should claim corruption unless they have evidence” doesn’t present a case for the routing, And all this blather about progress and infrastructure , your not even discussing the concerns raised the routing, its not even verbiage its more like verbage really. … Are you Bertie in disguise , as it certianly sounds like him when he has been rattled and he pulls out the my stick is bigger than yours.
Theres little hope in arguing with you or your ilk as one can deduce from your own statements that if in the morning the bulldozers uncovered a site of equal significance to a Woodquay or a Newgrange combined then you would simply say ‘ah sure we have started the road so lets drive on through these old bones and stones’ .
I can see that the neo-con republican (as in US republican) pro-industrial complex spirit is alive and well here in Ireland hope you enjoyed the FF tent at the Galway races.

FYI ive no connection whatsoever with FF or the Galway races. Your reasoning does little to back up your condemnation of my posts on this topic. However the important thing is ‘you and your ilk’ are being ignored in favour of progress which I support.

Ah ‘progress’ yes that word was used in exactly the same context as when the ESB pulled down houses on Fitzwilliam Street, and when the Hume Street Houses were demolished, etc etc etc.

This road is not progress, it is merely to facilitate more unsustainable planning in this country

if in the morning the bulldozers uncovered a site of equal significance to a Woodquay or a Newgrange combined then you would simply say ‘ah sure we have started the road so lets drive on through these old bones and stones’ .

If they DO find a Wood Quay or a Newgrange on the M3 route, we would NOT simply say let’s drive through it. This is the sort of dishonest argument we have to cope with all the time from eco lulus, as Bertie might call them. Set up a straw man, knock it down, cheer. If they DO find a Newgrange on the M3 route, I will (a) eat my hat and (b) completely and totally agree that the M3 should be rerouted.

However, they haven’t and they won’t find Newgrange or Wood Quay on this route. All they will find is a “henge” of no significance, and the bones of a big dead dog. Therefore, all the comparisons between Newgrange and the M3 are complete and utter nonsense. Don’t waste your time making any more of them, Letterfrack person.

Stick to the argument, stick to the route, on with the road!

@Sloan wrote:

New Strategic Infrastructure Development (SID) Cases Week ended: 13th July 2007

Meath County Council
Case reference: 17 EN3001
Case Type: Changes-Local Authority road development
Description: Ministerial Directions on National Monument at Lismullen, County Meath – M3 Clonee to North of Kells Motorway Scheme.
Category: Local Authority Project
Date lodged: 09-07-2007
Applicant: National Roads Authority (Road Authority)
EIS required: No
Status: Case is due to be decided by 12-11-2007

From An Bord Pleanala’s website http://www.pleanala.ie/lists/2007/sid/new_sid20070713.htm

I called the Bord today and they said they will have a decision on this next week. The decision will have major ramifications, particularly in light of the fact that the EU Commission sent a Reasoned Opinion to the Irish Government recently, stating that the National Monuments Act is in breach of EIA Directives because it does not give provide for a second stage EIA when there is demolition of a national monument, which was not detected in the original EIA. Here is a copy of a question by Kathy Sinnott to the Commission and their response:

If the Act doesn’t provide for a new EIA, then how did the matter end up with the Bord? A spokesperson there today said that Minister Roche was required under the National Monuments Act 2004 to instruct the roads authority to submit the Directions he gave to the Bord for a determination if this is a material change to the project. The Bord can order a new Environmental Impact Statement, they say. This is clearly the case under Section 14 A of the Act

The problem we have is that Minister Gormley won’t release the Reasoned Opinion sent by the Commission. The Gov press officer is saying they can’t release it. The Commission say they don’t have the power to release it but the local authority does. So much for Gomrley being open and accountable.

What the EU seem to be saying is that a new EIA should automatically be ordered, or possibly that the Minister should have the power to order a new EIA.

Regardless, Gormley should place a Temporary Preservation Order on the site, and preserve the structure until the Bord and the Commission have had a chance to reach their respective conclusions. But clearly he just doesn’t want to rock the boat.

Sue, maybe your Berties daughter in disguise , your logic is fundamentally flawed .

@Sue wrote:

If they DO find a Wood Quay or a Newgrange on the M3 route, we would NOT simply say let’s drive through it. This is the sort of dishonest argument we have to cope with all the time from eco lulus, as Bertie might call them. Set up a straw man, knock it down, cheer. If they DO find a Newgrange on the M3 route, I will (a) eat my hat and (b) completely and totally agree that the M3 should be rerouted.
However, they haven’t and they won’t find Newgrange or Wood Quay on this route. All they will find is a “henge” of no significance, and the bones of a big dead dog. Therefore, all the comparisons between Newgrange and the M3 are complete and utter nonsense. Don’t waste your time making any more of them, Letterfrack person.
Stick to the argument, stick to the route, on with the road!

How do you know they wont find anything of major significance on the current route? As I pointed out in my post the experts have been wrong before (documented fact) regarding what lies beneth our hills and mounds, so there is a chance they are wrong once again. So unless your some kind of walking human geophysic-sonar device, which given your babbling posts you may well be you cant say that they wont find anything .

Evidently your okay with the destruction of a National monument as in the case of the Lismullin site discovered on the M3 route.

The biggest flaw in your argument is your admission that if you we do find something you will agree to re-routing. What if theres nowhere to turn/reroute to at the point, we may have to retrace our steps a considerable distance to find an alternate route. Millions will and have been wasted up to that point. Its a well known circumvention of planning rules to build first worry about the legality afterwards, trust me I know this ploy works and so do you thats why your a proponent of it.

Theres nothing dishonest about my argument, although given your a supporter of Berties actions you probably have a different definition of the word honesty as I do, and I will take being referred to as an eco lulu as a complement , its better than just being a plain lulu like yourself.

Speaking as a complete laY person on this… but was there no Geo-Survey complied on the whole proposed route prior to commencement of development… paired with archaeological assessment on any anomolies that may have shown up????

This ad hoc, haphazard way of ‘sure, we’ll deal with it as it occurs’ is an afront to proper planning of any example of development…

Tara ruins must be preserved, says report
http://www.eveningecho.ie/news/bstory.asp?j=188196080&p=y88y9666x&n=188196689

21/08/2007 – 2:27:43 PM

Newly discovered 2000-year-old ruins at the ancient Hill of Tara must be fully preserved because of their unique size and character, a US academic today said.

State archaeologists began excavation work on the prehistoric Lismullen structure earlier this month claiming it was under threat from adverse weather.

But Dr Ronald Hicks of Ball State University, Indiana, argues it is part of a larger ancient ritual complex and must be preserved in situ.

Controversy has surrounded the site since the ruins were uncovered by workers during construction work on the controversial M3 motorway last April.

TaraWatch, which is demanding the site be preserved, has called on the Government to halt excavation until An Bord Pleanála rulesif a fresh planning application for the road project is needed in light of the find.

“This independent reportproves the national monument is much more significant and substantial than the National Roads Authority have reported,” campaigner Vincent Salafia said.

“In light of this report, the minister should halt the demolition works until An Bord Pleanála concludes its current deliberative process.”

Dr Hicks previously endorsed the nomination of Tara to the World Monuments Fund Listand issued an earlier report about the area’s archaeological significance.

In this latest report, he argues Lismullen is comparable to ceremonial enclosures found at Tara and other royal sites in Ireland, but is twice as large as any other.

He added the structure was part of a larger complex.

The site’s discovery came just a day after the then Minister for Transport Martin Cullen turned the sod on the €850m road project.

The semicircular enclosure, which lies across the northbound lane of the proposed motorway, is 80 metres in diameter and dates from between 380BC and 520BC.

It is thought to have been some kind of ceremonial site.

The discovery was granted National Monument status and all works were halted at the site.

But in one of his final acts of office, former Minister for the Environment Dick Roche used the National Monuments Act 2004 and signed an order of preservation by record, meaning the prehistoric henge would be photographed, sketched and measured before being razed to make way for the motorway.

Mr Gormley maintains he does not have the authority to revoke his predecessor’s decision without a material change in circumstance.

TaraWatch has sent a solicitor’s letter to Mr Gormley demanding the excavation work be stopped, to which it claims no reply has been received.

It argues the 2004 National Monuments Act is contrary to EU law because it did not require a new environmental impact assessment following the Lismullen discovery.

An Bord Pleanála is currently reviewing this matter and a decision is expected within weeks.

If the board rules the road scheme is now different to the one approved in September 2003, it could require a fresh planning application to be lodged, which would lead to huge delays in delivering the motorway.

“The board is deciding whether demolition of Lismullen is a material change to a motorway scheme, and whether it will have a significant effect on the environment,” added Mr Salafia.

“They should consider this independent report in reaching their findings.”

I await the war this will cause on this forum –

Green light for Lismullen excavation
listen Wednesday, 22 August 2007 16:31

An Bord Pleanála has cleared the way for archaeological work to commence on the National Monument at Lismullen in Co Meath, which lies in the path of the M3 motorway.

The decision means that the site, which is close to the Hill of Tara, will be examined by archaeologists before the road is constructed on top of it.

The National Monument at Lismullen consists of two circular enclosures, the largest 80m in diameter, and dates from somewhere between 1000 BC and 400 AD.
Advertisement

Last month, the National Roads Authority submitted its plans to preserve the site ‘by record’. This means the NRA will examine it in detail and then build the M3 over it.

In its decision, An Bord Pleanála gave the NRA the green light because the plan did not constitute a material alteration to the M3 scheme which it had already approved.

An Bord Pleanála had been the last hurdle to be overcome for the controversial proposal. And the decision will come as a big relief to both the NRA and Meath County Council.

However, the news will be a big disappointment to protestors who hoped the Bord might have demanded a new environmental impact assessment.

I await the war this will cause on this forum –

But why would there be a war, Chris? :rolleyes: The democrats on this forum will undoubtedly now accept that a proper and legal decision has been taken on the M3, after due consideration by the impartial instruments and institutions of the state. Due process has been followed to the letter. The minister for the environment naturally accepts the logical and considered outcome.

As they say in Letterfrack – Ar aghaidh leis an obair!! 🙂

Sue ,
Irelands recent history is littered with questionable decisions made in the name of
@Sue wrote:

proper …legal….due consideration by the impartial instruments and institutions of the state …. due process

I wont even start into them as the list is longer than something really long !

Its pretty pathetic if thats the best you can come up with for your argument.
As a card carrying eco lulu (Im getting to like that name, all credit to you Sue on that one) I have always acknowledged that a decision has been made and that in some shape or form it represnts a framework in which this scandalous destruction is proceeding. I am arguing primarily against the correctness and wisdom of the decision, the routing and manner of the current work being carried out, and on a secondary level against the legality of it ,something Im happy to let the EU itself investigate, and seeing as how I havent paid any tax here for a couple of years I will let you look after the EU fine when it arrives.

@Sue wrote:

As they say in Letterfrack – Ar aghaidh leis an obair!!

Heres something else thats been known to be heard around Letterfrack
If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law. Henry Thoreau

if you’re not paying any tax here, then you’re probably breaking the law already.

typically people who DO pay their taxes will have to foot the large legal bill when the likes of you and Salafia yet again lose your court challenges to these decisions

@Sue wrote:

typically people who DO pay their taxes will have to foot the large legal bill when the likes of you and Salafia yet again lose your court challenges to these decisions

Better we pay that bill than the price we may pay due to you and your ilks’ short-sighted self-interest.

@Sue wrote:

if you’re not paying any tax here, then you’re probably breaking the law already.

typically people who DO pay their taxes will have to foot the large legal bill when the likes of you and Salafia yet again lose your court challenges to these decisions

Au contraire Sue….Im availing of @Sue wrote:

proper and legal decision

taken by @Sue wrote:

the impartial instruments and institutions of the state. Due process has been followed to the letter.

So dont claim that the routing and manner of development of the M3 is correct and proper just cos the decision was signed off in the corridors of our elected power. Getting back to the by-pass , it really is pathetic, as all your lot can base your debate surrounding this issue is that those against it are eco lulu tree hugging Bertie bashers and the main reason pro the routing is cos the decision has a Departmental seal on it. Id say you were just mud slinging although im pretty sure you never even touched the stuff..

This Tara Bypass decision and everything about it stinks on every level … its a scandal …(as are some of are tax statutes 🙂 )

@Sue wrote:

But why would there be a war, Chris? :rolleyes: The democrats on this forum will undoubtedly now accept that a proper and legal decision has been taken on the M3, after due consideration by the impartial instruments and institutions of the state. Due process has been followed to the letter. The minister for the environment naturally accepts the logical and considered outcome.

That may or may not be so in Irish law, but Due Process, in European law, however, requires public consultation, independent assessment and an opportunity to review the decision. There was no public consultation or independent assessment and no opportunity exists to have the decision reviewed, except in the courts. The majority of the public are against the route, independnet reports show the NRA has dumbed down the significance of the site, and the EU is already reviewing the situation. The Irish Government have until Sept 2 to repsond to the Reasoned Opinion sent by the Commission, in which it states that an EIA should have been performed before the decision to demolish the site was made. The Opinion also condemns the NDP 2007-2013, which is what the M3 is now being built under, for lack of public consultation and environmental impact assessment. Now that’s a war worth watching.

vincent don’t waste your time engaging with the asphalt-terrorists like Sue. We’ve all learned to ignore her and her promotion of the automobile over culture, history, heritage and the environment.

@Vincent Salafia wrote:

That may or may not be so in Irish law, but Due Process, in European law, however, requires public consultation, independent assessment and an opportunity to review the decision. There was no public consultation or independent assessment and no opportunity exists to have the decision reviewed, except in the courts. The majority of the public are against the route, independnet reports show the NRA has dumbed down the significance of the site, and the EU is already reviewing the situation. The Irish Government have until Sept 2 to repsond to the Reasoned Opinion sent by the Commission, in which it states that an EIA should have been performed before the decision to demolish the site was made. The Opinion also condemns the NDP 2007-2013, which is what the M3 is now being built under, for lack of public consultation and environmental impact assessment. Now that’s a war worth watching.

I think you should all end your ‘protests’. It was you and your group that was too slow off the mark with the M3 in the beginning. The project went through the planning process intact. Where were you and your group before this motorway was planned? Id really like to know because as I stated earlier I was a very regular visitor to Tara and nobody gave a toss about it then. Seems to me you have a more widespread anti motorway agenda put simply. You lost. Get over it.

So which is it?

Sue, maybe your Berties daughter in disguise

or

promoter of the automobile over culture, history,

Am I Bertie’s daughter or a spokesman for the AA? You eco-warriors should co-ordinate your insults a little more thoughtfully.

While you’re working that one out, here’s some light reading. Further proof that the archeological site, on whose behalf you demand that tens of millions be spent in order to find a new M3 route, is about as important as Sue’s back garden.

Ar aghaidh leis an obair!

Forensic M3 dig unearths Iron Age secrets.
Elaine Keogh
380 words
25 August 2007

(c) 2007, The Irish Times.

The National Roads Authority has revealed how it is excavating the controversial new national monument at Lismullen on the route of the €850 million M3 motorway.

Senior archaeologist with the National Roads Authority (NRA), Mary Deevy, admitted that so little evidence remains that “forensic archaeology” will be used to try and reveal exactly what it was used for.

The monument consists of two circular enclosures made of arcs of stake-holes and what appears to be an east-facing entrance; the diameter of the outer enclosure is 80 metres, the inner 16 metres.

Radio carbon dating has dated sample material to the middle Iron Age or around 400 BC.

The site occupies what will be part of the northbound lane of the motorway but it is currently home to four teams of archaeologists and their supervisors and a team of archivists.

The monument is being preserved by record, as directed by the Government and yesterday Ms Deevy, who gave a guided tour of the excavations to a small group of reporters, said “we don’t downplay archaeology as we find it so exciting.”

It appears the site was used for one phase of activity but whether this took place over a day, a year or decades is unclear and what that activity was also remains a mystery.

The archaeologists are taking regular samples of the soil for geo-chemical analysis.

“At this stage we don’t know what it is going to tell us. We are really throwing all the scientific analysis at it because there is so little archaeology here. On a site like this you are essentially down to forensic archaeology.

“We are not finding materials you can hold in your hand, we are essentially looking for trace elements that can be analysed under a microscope chemically. Hopefully we will get results,” she said.

Asked whether the radio carbon dating had tied the site into nearby Tara, Ms Deevy said: “There are so many individual sites on Tara that no matter what period this site was we would find some correlation. Before we had the date we had said it had similarities to a phase of Rath of the synods and that still holds to some extent.”

this thread has gone way past it’s sell by date ~(a bit like 1970’s transport planning philosophy). We’re both rehashing the same arguments. Once again you quote an employee of the motorway builders to back up your argument. Once again, someone will point out the flimsiness of it all. And we’re back to square one. And not an inch of railway has been laid in the meantime, which just shows how damn backward this society really is.

Just to clarify, Sue i am not an “eco-warrior”. I’m a qualified town planner and a practising transportation planner.

thanks for the updates sloan

IMO ANYONE who blocks contractors physically trying to do their jobs on the site should be arrested. None of these people have any right to interfer in such a manner in a scheme that has the support of the majority of people and was given the go ahead by those charged on behave of the people to give their backing to such projects or not – in this case Bord Pleanala.

@darkman wrote:

IMO ANYONE who blocks contractors physically trying to do their jobs on the site should be arrested. None of these people have any right to interfer in such a manner in a scheme that has the support of the majority of people and was given the go ahead by those charged on behave of the people to give their backing to such projects or not – in this case Bord Pleanala.

Yeah hang them, dirty bastards 😡 … Same types that showed up how the Carrickmines site was being obliterated by a junction that was contrived specifically to facilitate the Jackson Way rezoned lands. (Another BP approved project). :rolleyes:

Anyhow, Pat Kenny is currently doing a show on this on Radio 1 –

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/index.html

@hutton wrote:

Yeah hang them, dirty bastards 😡 … Same types that showed up how the Carrickmines site was being obliterated by a junction that was contrived specifically to facilitate the Jackson Way rezoned lands. (Another BP approved project). :rolleyes:

Anyhow, Pat Kenny is currently doing a show on this on Radio 1 –

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/index.html

pk being hostile and dismissive, if bin laden was on he wouldn’t give him such a hard time

Maybe PK was going to annex their land…

@hutton wrote:

Yeah hang them, dirty bastards 😡

Well I would not go that far but certainly a harsher punishment would be desirable;)

Nice to see a more balanced view of the M3 emerging on this thread.

🙂

has anyone any more info on the ‘new’ fortified complex dicovered at Tara????

Meanwhile, pressure group TaraWatch has described as “significant” the discovery of a new archaeological site in the path of the M3 motorway, at the Hill of Tara in Co. Meath.

The group called on Minister for Environment, Heritage and Local Government, John Gormley, to place a preservation order on the site which it says may be a fortified complex.

The site is located between the defensive fort of Rathmiles and the burial ground at Soldier Hill, the newly discovered site is further proof that the Hill of Tara constitutes a vast archaeological complex.

from: http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1017/breaking7.htm

great letters.

Where did you come by these? Was it an open letter to a paper or journal or something? They seem to be rather crudely structured and worded for a politician!!!

A worker on the site of the M3 on boards.ie says that Irish troops are moving in later today to clear out the protestors (should be interesting). This would follow reports in the media that the protestors have dug underground tunnels……..

Unconfirmed of course but watch out for news later apparently. Obviously the Gardai are not competent enough to deal with them:rolleyes:

About time IMO if its true.

Article in the Irish Times, Monday 24 March

Expert warns port site is of vast historical importance

‘The site earmarked for a major new port in north Dublin is of hugh archaeological and historical importance and may be where St. Patrick first landed in Ireland, accordingly to one of the country’s most eminent archaeologists.

Prof. George Eogan has expressed concern about plans by the Drogheda Port Company to build a new deepwater port, at an estimated cost of €300 million, at Bremore on the north Dublin coast.

He says the area contains a unified prehistoric cemetry of mounds that extends for over a mile, from Gormanstown, which is to the north of the Delvin River, to Bremore, located to the south of the river.’ etc.

If a person was of a conspiratorial frame of mind, this report would be inclined to have the antenna twitching.

Does anyone remember the last days of Carrickmines? The save our heritage protestors were well dug in and it was shaping up to be Rourke’s Drift all over again. We thought all we had to do was sit back and watch as the protestors were picked off one by one in a gore fest, and then, without warning, one day, they just melted away! Someone had banged a drum to announce the construction phase of the M3 and, just like that, the showdown with the Zulu hordes of road engineers had suddenly switched to Tara.

If a person was of a conspiratorial frame of mind, he might see this article by Prof. Eogan as a distant drum roll, a subliminal message to the besieged Tara stockade, ‘save yourselves, melt away, there’s a jucy new battle with the evil development doers, and it’s just over those hills’.

If this is the message delivered by Prof. Eogan, it is done so unwittingly. Archaeologists are not devious people (except obviously in matters of career advancement and in the snakes and ladders pit of academic politics, like everyone else).

Although not devious, archaeologists are strange people, it’s not just the dress sense and the mad hair, it’s much deeper than that. These people inhabit a world that is both subterranean and stiflingly academic, most of the time they see no reason to interact with the surface world. Deep down (sorry), they know that their role is to shine a light on prehistory, but they only ever want to use 40watt bulbs, because they don’t like other people seeing the light. Archaeologist are so entrenched (sorry again) in their own little world that an exciting day for one of them is a day when they can run up to a colleague, clutching a miserable shard of broken pot and say ‘look gabriel, this proves conclusively what I already knew!’

When an archaeologist eventually files an excavation report (which many avoid for years), it’s either to fulfil a excavation licence condition, or it’s to debunk the assertions of a colleague, it’s never done to actually inform the public. Archaeologists have no consciousness of the public, nor any consciousness of the benefits that could derive if they would just engage in development discussions and bring an informed heritage perspective to the table.

A particularly troubling aspect of the Irish Times article is the reference to Bremore being the possible landing place of St. Patrick! All due respects to our patron saint, but nobody knows, or will ever know, where he actually set foot on Irish soil. As far as I knew, historians weren’t even prepared to confirm that there ever was a single ‘Patrick’ in a strictly historical sense. Normally, archaeologists wouldn’t touch this stuff with a stripy pole. This is Indiana Jones territory.

All of this makes the article by Prof. Eogan, an intriguing puzzle, and a nice bit of grist to the mill for the dedicated conspiracy theorist.

To be absolutely clear, I am not suggesting that George Eogan is capable of doing anything underhand, or that he has a pet project somewhere that, like Dr. Grant, somebody has come along now and offered to fund for two more years, so he’s off in a helicopter to Jurassic Park. I sat through enough George Eogan lectures to be able to state, with some conviction, that we can rule that out. There has to be another explanation.

For the conspiracy theory to stand up, and given that the article is essentially the product of a discussion between two people, the interviewee and the interviewer, perhaps we’ve been looking in the wrong direction.

Supposing a dodgy politician (is there any other kind?) were to suggest to a hungry journalist (is there any other kind?) that a decent front of paper story could be had by asking a few well chosen questions of an esteemed college professor, questions like:

Could this be the progeny of the Eogan article?

Is the Eogan article the first drum beat in an orchestrated diversionary battle?

If a person was of a conspiratorial frame of mind, he might be inclined to say, possibly!

I’m not making any case for, or against, the Tara moterway, I would just like to point out that, whatever Tara actually is; ceremonial centre, burial ground, jerry-built ring fort, royal enclosure, mythical landscape, the list goes on, the one thing that we can say for sure is, that it is a grassy knoll!

You obviously didn’t see Prof.Eogan’s letter in Yesterdays Irish Times about Tara.
Forget your conspiracy theory.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/letters/2008/0326/index.html#1206144724934

Millennium: Sorry no, i didn’t see it, I was away for three days.

I’m not paying for the IT on line when I can pick it up half price most days. What is the gist of his article yesterday do you mind me asking you. I take it those mounds at Bremore are very important. The only mention of the Bremore / Gormanstown mounds in George’s book is one sentence on p. 93:

‘On the sea coast near the mouth of the River Devlin at Gormanstown (Knockinger) were four tombs, while a group of five mounds is at Bremore a few km further down the coast’.

I hope that piece came across as a bit of fun, I don’t need any solicitors letters in the box tomorrow.

Ah the joy of an institutional subscription!

Irish Times 26 March 2008

MOTORWAY WORKS AT TARA

Madam, – I was very disappointed to read in last Friday’s Irish Times that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, John Gormley, declared himself satisfied that the National Roads Authority proposals, if implemented, would result in the protection of the monument at Rath Lugh.

This is not so as the monument and its environment have already been mutilated by work carried out on the proposed route of the motorway.

Rath Lugh and its environment is an integral part of the Tara archaeological and cultural complex. Its environment includes the significant Gabhra Valley to the west towards the Hill of Tara. The latter area is now reduced to a strip of rubble as a result of work carried out by and with the authority of the present Government of which Mr Gormley is a member. Furthermore, Rath Lugh is now divorced from the archaeological complex of which it formed a part from its construction many centuries ago.

As a result of the destruction, which I witnessed a couple of days ago, a “new” environment has now emerged, the personality of the area is being destroyed.

Standing on Rath Lugh and looking across the Gabhra Valley the main feature of that area is now the equivalent of a “race track” with heavy machinery driving up and down at considerable speed and creating vibrations which can be felt on Rath Lugh.

In the area that I visited three lines of defence were in place.

The outermost is a spiked iron fence up to eight feet in height and secured in concrete, next came security personnel and further inwards were members of the Garda Síochána.

For me, this was an intimidating experience and one that I never expected to see in order to facilitate the destruction, by our own Government, of a key portion of our own great archaeological inheritance. – Yours, etc,

GEORGE EOGAN, Brighton Road, Rathgar, Dublin.

Thanks notjim, I hate to freeload like this.

I don’t like him when he’s this animated, he used to scare the shit out of me in tutorials when I hadn’t a clue which feckin pot was which, him and Caulfield, Herity would know the blank look on the face and let it be.

I’m not entirely sure that this blows my conspiracy theory, it just makes it more devious, doesn’t it?

so Rath Lugh, which nobody in Ireland had ever heard about before Squirt climbed into a hole under it, is now a “key portion” of our “great archeological inheritance”? I think not.

Workmen, proceed

@Sue wrote:

so Rath Lugh, which nobody in Ireland had ever heard about before Squirt climbed into a hole under it, is now a “key portion” of our “great archeological inheritance”? I think not.

Workmen, proceed

Sue, alot of archaeology is about discovering something which we dont already know .
Plenty people knew of Rath Lugh, and felt it was of significance even ‘great’ significance but had not yet been fully examined. Alot has come to light because of the M3 work and has been hastened into the public domain.

The logic of your arguement implies because no one knew there was a Viking longship 30 feet below the surface at Woodquay then that developemt should not have been impeeded in any form or put another way
if the Sphinx was still covered in sand and the Egyptian gvt decided to build a city in that location but subsequently unearthed the head of this magnificent monument, then you would argue that the workmen should not be halted because noone knew it was there before the work started.

Okay the final nail in the coffin … jaysus what a joke …. I reckon Monty Python are behind the whole show here ….

Opening of historic Boyne centre may be one of Taoiseach’s last official acts
One of the last official acts of the departing Taoiseach may be to formally open the historic Battle of the Boyne site in Co. Louth.
Foreign Affairs Minister Dermot Ahern said today he thinks it would be fitting that the opening be conducted by the Taoiseach and the Northern Ireland First Minister Ian Paisley.
A €25 million restoration project, featuring a visitor centre, is due to be opened at the site on the banks of the River Boyne in coming weeks.
The Protestant King William III defeated the Catholic King James II at the location in 1690 – an event celebrated every year in dozens of Orange Order parades across Northern Ireland.
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/politics/opening-of-historic-boyne-centre-may-be-one-of-taoiseachs-last-official-acts-1341015.html

And this at the same time we are paying 69,000 euro an acre to build a motorway thru our own ancient heritage …
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/landowners-secure-8364120m-windfall-from-controversial-m3-1340390.html

Thankfully I just did my US taxes and dont have to fund any of this crap .

@BostonorBerlin wrote:

And this at the same time we are paying 69,000 euro an acre to build a motorway thru our own ancient heritage …
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/landowners-secure-8364120m-windfall-from-controversial-m3-1340390.html

Thankfully I just did my US taxes and dont have to fund any of this crap .

Well, in fairness, we did stick a big cement factory within a very visible distance of the Boyne site;)

@BostonorBerlin wrote:

Thankfully I just did my US taxes and dont have to fund any of this crap .

LOL!! 😀 So your reasonably satisfied with where your U.S taxes go?
A motorway versus hmmmm, well i think you know.

@paul h wrote:

LOL!! 😀 So your reasonably satisfied with where your U.S taxes go?
A motorway versus hmmmm, well i think you know.

off topic but… yep Im okay about my US taxes being spent in Shannon duty free isnt that were all the ‘neutral’ US soldiers stop off on their way to you know where.

The decimation of Tara is a scandalous act perpetuated by those in power and those who keep them there all of which are fumbling in the greasy till…
In the sixth century A.D. because of a infraction by the high kings against the emerging clergy , St Ruadan placed a curse upon Tara ‘ desolete be Tara for ever and ever’ , and a motorway is about as desolete as you can get. A very sad day indeed for a once proud Celtic race, we are no longer the race that harboured culture and the arts at a time of intellectual darkness across Europe. Ah well it was good while it lasted.