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@Praxiteles wrote:
Not quite so simple. The west ends of Catholic churches are currently in grave danger because of the latest crap out of places like Chuicago and Collegeville: it is called the gathering area and basically consists of clearing EVERYTHING at the west end to create a sort of glass hall in which people meet and chat and do other activities before and after “church”. The worst example of such -and an advance warning example – is the parish church in DIngle, Co. Kerry, which had its gables lowered by 20 feet to make it look like an american bungalow “church”. In case you had not noticed, a similar plan was in train for St. Colman’s Cathedral but for once Cobh Urban District Council baulked.
It really makes you appreciate works of art all the more doesn’t it when they’re threatened with destruction from every angle 🙁
Jerpoint Abbey, an Irish not Norman foundation originally, patronised by the King of Ossory himself. It’s medieval ruins are just outside Thomastown, co.Kilkenny
Cistercian austere sublimity
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COI cathedral in Cashel, completed 1784
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Don’t you just want to kiss that sexy limestone
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By the way in the above interior shot you can see the end of the nave is set up as a reception area with all sorts of ugly commercial clutter. This has happened in all the major Irish Anglican churches I’ve been in, and the ‘shop fittings’ which is exactly what they are, are often extremely permanent and always crude and imposing. It is not balked at to have gift shops with tourist keyring stalls and scarf-racks down the nave from the altar! The amusing point is, our Catholic churches are being destroyed at their east end by over-zealous priests with too much money to spend, and our Anglican churches are being vandalised at the west end in an attempt to acquire funds usually simply to survive intact!
That First Presbyterian Church is really a beauty, what a lovely stone. I would like to visit Derry pity it’s so far away.
Are Irish people unnaturally pedantic.?… I’ve just been reading about daingle
The Medieval walls of Wexford town; though not much has survived, what has is very beautiful. The stone used is one of the most attractive used in rubble-stone work in Medieval Ireland and is much like that used in Clonmel,(in it’s walls and Old St.Mary’s church).
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The City Hall in Waterford, also by Roberts, built 1783.
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This is from the irish arch site
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The Georgian COI Christchurch Cathedral in Waterford City designed by John Roberts (1712-1796). They say it is the only Georgian COI Cathedral in the classical style. The visitor’s leaflet also claims it’s the most beautiful cathedral on the island! And yet I don’t know if I disagree..
This is the spire, you might have deduced. There is also a sublime little portico at the entrance front, done in the same gorgeous limestone. Look at it shine, silver-like. The interior shot does no justice. The plaster work is as fine as, say, that in Powerscourt townhouse, in Dublin.
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A bad one;
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Just a few questions concerning the management of churches, if anyone knows:
Today I was in the recently refurbished and re-opened RC cathedral in Waterford (designed by John Roberts who also designed the COI cathedral in the same city, which they say makes Waterford the only city in Europe whose Protestant and Catholic cathedrals had the same architect) begun 1793 making it a very much Georgian Catholic cathedral. It is so magnificent and has been so well restored I almost don’t want to say anything negative, however I’m going to. The problem is the paint job- it could be argued that the colour of the paint does not affect the appearance of the interior significantly, but while the architecture and ornament are still appreciable, I think an innappropriate colouring does reduce the aesthetic, potentially seriously. In the cathedral the side walls (south and north) are a perfect, soft, unobtrusive light yellow which goes splendidly with the dark woodwork (which is truly the most extensive and beautiful I’ve seen in an Irish RC church), but the east end and the many columns are painted a light baby blue! (Before the recent work it was an even darker blue) the effect is truly awful, and the blue should so obviously be the same yellow as the rest! Another church (also wonderful) in Waterford suffers from the same misfortune- the Franciscan church. This is also a light yellow, perhaps the very same one, but the chancel is painted a gaudy red and the crossing ceiling an absurd orangy yellow- contiguous with the light yellow and clashing with it dreadfully. Many Irish churches in fact are badly coloured. Now I noticed both of the above churches have been re-ordered ( however extremely sympathetically- so much so in fact, it is hardly re-ordering in the usual, destructive sense. That’s not to condone it -it shouldn’t have been done) and I’m wondering
1. Is a new colour scheme ever, or usually a part of the re-ordering carried out by the priests or bishops?
2. Even ignoring re-orderment- is the colour for a church interior usually specified in it’s design, and intentionally retained- or is it under the fancy of the parish priest every 5 years or so, depending on what mood he’s in?
3. Has anyone between the Irish Archbishops and the Pope expressed even an acknowledgement of what has happened to the churches in Ireland, not to even speak of regret?
4. Can anyone with a good knowledge of Catholic bureaucracy please answer me this: Are the Catholic churches in Ireland owned directly by the Holy See- if they are, is there not an official in charge of them, someone qualified and knowledgeable about the vast heritage/property of the Church, whose job is to protect and preserve them?
If anyone in the know could answer any of these for me I’m really grateful.
In Dublin, St.Audeon’s RC for the best interior. Also the church of the good sheperd in churchtown-but I’m sure no-one knows about that.
Outside Dublin I love the Capuchin Friary church in Kilkenny CITY, and the COI cathedral in Waterford, the most overlooked building in Ireland.
@Praxiteles wrote:
Here we are Ake, some shots of St. Savour’s avant:
!!!!!!!!!!!
Sacred Jesus!!!!!!! How could that be?!!! Makes me sick.sick sick sick. That must have been the finest church in Dublin. If only somebody could be punished.1. Does anyone have pictures of St.Saviours, Dominic street (Dublin) before the re-ordering?
2.Does anyone have, or know of a complete or partial list of Irish churches re-ordered, not re-ordered or pending re-orderment?
If such a list does not exist, is there any way to incorporate one into this thread, to which everyone could contribute á la wiki?
I was in kilkenny recently and visited the stunning catholic cathedral there (st. peter’s is it?) -at least I managed to form some idea of how beautiful it must have been before the scarcely credible vandalism of the reoerdering which has moved the altar into the crossing and introduced new furnishings, a name they don’t deserve. Back in Dublin I visited the truly wonderful neo-Byzantine church in clonskeagh (of the miraculous medal?!) which has also been re-ordered but infinitely more sympathetically. Still the coherent (well thought out!) design is interrupted. I understand that Ireland is in fact the only country that has been engaging in this orgy of desecration- am I correct in this? That makes me marvel at how singularly unlucky we seem to be, in a european context as far as artistic and architectural heritage goes- in fact, our bad fortune is of an amusing scale and continuity: We enjoy no Roman ruins, since they never reached Ireland, the vast body of churches, cathedrals and monasteries, as well as perhaps secular buildings which we know to have existed (and been great works of art) constructed of wood in the dark and middle ages have left not a single sorry trace! The Romanesque did not penetrate until a century after it could have. Just two or three great (only by Irish standards) gothic churches or cathedrals were built- These were ruthlessly ‘restored’ by the victorians. We missed out entirely on the Renaissance. Then our nonetheless considerable medieval heritage of churches, monasteries and castles was near obliterated by Protestantism, Tudor Wars, Cromwell…etc . Next huge numbers of our country houses and mansions, and the rest of our Georgian heritage is carelessly demolished by nationalists and now the only corpus of architecture in Ireland comparable to that of any other country in europe or almost so – our great post-emancipation churches – are being almost as badly despoiled as the original churches were 500 years ago by the zealots! (It makes for sorely ironic reading.)
Is there any end in sight?
It’s a stupid idea to let any politically minded northerners out of their cage. How come scotland can ban marches?
1. I agree that trams on College Green would be awful. Look how grand and elegant it looked in that old circa Victorian photograph. And look at it now. How were those trees and that statue ever permitted? The Parliament building almost looks small due to all the clutter and traffic and foliage. Therefore it’s already awful: if trams mean the removal of the aforesaid we’ll neither be better or worse off aestethically but we’ll have the ‘vital’ link for the two lines- and who’s to say technology won’t solve the wire-problem within a decade?
2. That was said assuming the vitalness of the Luas link: In fact I just don’t see the essentialness of the link. According to T21 there will be a Metro train leaving from St. Green (leaving and therefore not full of passengers) and going directly to O’Connell street under ground. Have people just forgotten this? Or is the cause of the furore the fact that those hard done-by green liners would have to suffer the indignity of changing twice to get on the red line? That could hardly be: to get anywhere considerable in London chances are you’ll have to change at least once and that change will most likely involve lengthy subway walks and escalators- which wouldn’t be the case in Dublin. (Being a green line user myself the walk from the Green to my destination even if it was as far as the red line could only be described as the minimum required daily exercise.)
3. How many people desire to use a combination of the green line and the red line westwards? It could only be people from at most ranelagh to at most heuston- anyone beyond that would surely take the hypotenuse- is that so many people to force a 5min walk on-scratch that- a change on the metro? Therefore my opinion : Run the green line east to Pearse and continue it on to connolly while you’re at it, going under the loop -line bridge.
1.Just for clarity could someone explain what exactly reordering is: What the effects are on the cathedral and why people want to do it? As an aside – are georgian mansions the only protected buildings in ireland? Are churches not considered heritage to be protected from the whims of the vatican?
2.In a somewhat related vein- is anyone else here bothered by the presence of a gift shop actually in the nave of st.Patick’s Dublin? Is this not a disgrace? I am disgusted by the commercialization of churches when done in such an obtrusive way -anyone who’s touristed london for example will know, both st. paul’s and WA are more akin to theme-parks….
3.Why can’t Ireland have something like Westminster (RC) Cathedral or the Brompton Oratory if we have nominally almost as many Caths. as Britain?
Does anyone really think the U2 tower is that great? As far as I can make out from the rather poor pictures of it – and until I come across a model- I must say it looks deformed rather than elegant. I would love to see something like canary wharf tower or city hall in london, maybe something slightly more elaborate.
