reorganisation and destruction of irish catholic churches
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Re Carrickmacross: P. Clerkin’s report (#519) suggests that the church there has falled victim to the Japanese restaurant formula, already used to such effect in the North Cathedral, Cork. What a pity!:(
Gianlorenzo wrote:J. J. McCarthy was involved with six of Ireland’s Catholic Cathedrals]
😮
Change above to seven cathedrals. I forgot St. Eugene’s in Derry. McCarthy was the principal architect assisted by Charles Whelan.Architects directly involved in designing the Catholic Cathedrals of Ireland :-
J.J. McCarthy (7); George Ashlin (4); W.H. Byrne (3) Dominic Madden (3); Thomas Duff (2); A.W.N Pugin (2); George Goldie (2); Marcus Murray (2); William Hague (2); E.W. Pugin (1); Hadfield (1);William Butler (1) Sir John Benson (1); Fr. Jeremiah McAuley (1); John O’Neill(1); Thomas Cobden (1); Maurice Fitzgerald (1); John J. Robinson (1); T.F. McNamara (1); Philip Hardwick (1); Maurice Hennessy (1); Joseph B. Kearne (1); John Burke (1); Ralph Byrne (1); William Murray (1); John Roberts (1); Charles Whelan (1)
Catholic Cathedrals (years under construction) Architects
St. Patrick’s Armagh (1840-73) Thomas Duff; J.J. McCarthy
Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary and St. Nathy, Ballaghaderreen (1855-60) Hadfield & Goldie, (later work W.H. Byrne)
St. Muredach, Ballina (1827-92) Dominic Madden; Marcus Murray: Sir JohnBenson
St. Peter’s, Belfast (1828-66) Fr. Jeremiah McAuley; John O’Neill
Assumption of Blessed Virgin Mary , Carlow (1828-33) (Joseph Lynch) Thomas Cobden
St. Patrick and St. Felim, Cavan (1939-42) William H. Byrne
St. Colman’s, Cobh (1868-1915) E.W. Pugin and George Ashlin
St. Mary and St. Anne’s, Cork(1799-1869) ? Francis Johnson; ?Sir Richard Morrison: ? Fr. Matt Hogan.
St. Eugene’s, Derry (1851-1873) J.J. McCarthy and Charles Whelan
Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Dublin (1815-25) ? John Sweetman; ? Louis H. LeBas
St. Peter and St. Paul, Ennis (1828-43) Dominic Madden; Maurice Fitzgerald; J. J. McCarthy.
St. Aidan’s, Enniscorthy (1843-60) A.W.N. Pugin; J.J. McCarthy
Our Lady Assumed into Heaven and St. Nicholas, Galway (1957-64) John J. Robinson
Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Kilkenny (1843-57) William Butler
Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Killarney (1842-55) A.W.N. Pugin (1842-52); J.J. McCarthy (1853-
1855); Ashlin & Colman (1907-12)
St. Eunan & St. Columba, Letterkenny (1891-1901) William Hague and T.F. McNamara
St. John the Baptist, Limerick (1856-61) Philip C. Hardwick; Maurice Hennessy
St. Mel’s, Longford (1840- ) Joseph B. Kearne; John Burke; George Ashlin
St. Brendan’s Loughrea (1897-1902) William Byrne
St. Macartan’s, Monaghan (1861-92) J.J. McCarthy; William Hague
Christ the King, Mullingar (1933-36) Ralph Byrne
St. Patrick & St. Colman, Newry (1825-29) Thomas Duff; George Ashlin
St. Patrick’s, Skibbereen (1820’s) unknown
Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Sligo (1869-74) George Goldie
Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Thurles (1865-72) J.J. McCarthy
Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Tuam (1827-37) Dominic Madden; Marcus Murray; William Murray
Holy Trinity, Waterford (1793-6) John Roberts (1714-96)1.Just for clarity could someone explain what exactly reordering is: What the effects are on the cathedral and why people want to do it? As an aside – are georgian mansions the only protected buildings in ireland? Are churches not considered heritage to be protected from the whims of the vatican?
2.In a somewhat related vein- is anyone else here bothered by the presence of a gift shop actually in the nave of st.Patick’s Dublin? Is this not a disgrace? I am disgusted by the commercialization of churches when done in such an obtrusive way -anyone who’s touristed london for example will know, both st. paul’s and WA are more akin to theme-parks….
3.Why can’t Ireland have something like Westminster (RC) Cathedral or the Brompton Oratory if we have nominally almost as many Caths. as Britain?
@ake wrote:
1.Just for clarity could someone explain what exactly reordering is: What the effects are on the cathedral and why people want to do it? As an aside – are georgian mansions the only protected buildings in ireland? Are churches not considered heritage to be protected from the whims of the vatican?
To Ake
1. Re-ordering is a term used by church authorities as a misnomer in an attempt to persuade parishioners that what they intend to do the sanctuaries of their churches is a simple moving about of furniture, when in fact it usually entails the removal of much loved features such as high altars, altar rails, statuary, pulpits, sediliae etc. and the insertion of modern and inappropriate furnishings. [This is a very simplistic answer and I know when Praxitele comes on he will give you a fuller explanation.]
The real tragedy here is that these changes are carried out in the name of ‘liturgical requirement’ from Vatican II, which is quite simply a LIE. These things are not required liturgically, or otherwise, and are usually the personal preferences of the local clerics. It has almost become ‘keeping up with the Joneses’.
I think you would find that, if asked, the vast majority of parishioners involved would say no to these changes, but the whole process is carefully orchastrated so that their opinion is neither invited nor welcome. Therefore the effects on these people is devastation and they would argue that what has occurred is not re-ordering, but destruction, thus the title of this thread. An example of this was seen in Cobh, where when asked c.97% of the adult population opposed the porposed changes, thus the current appeal to APB and oral hearing.
he effect of this in Ireland has been the loss of some priceless works of art and in many cathedrals and churches the skewing of the orientation and raison d’etre of the building.Your question regarding the heritage aspect is good. One would have thought ,in this day and age, that our public bodies would not feel the necessity of kowtowing to some members of the clergy, particularly against the wishes of the people, but sadly it appears that in some quarters they are happy to allow the destruction of our ecclesiastical architectural heritage. One of the reasons for this, I believe, is that the media are almost completely silent on this issue. Another is that in most cases people have been faced with a fait accompli and feel helpless to do anything about it. This would change if the great lie of ‘liturgical requirement’ were exposed.
In the end it comes down to “who cares?” Not enough people of influence, is the answer.One final note on this part of your question, the whim involved here has nothing whatsoever to do with the Vatican, the whim is very much an Irish infection, albeit imported from America and parts of the UK.
Ake, oh yes there are many bothered about the commercialization of our Churches. But like everything else, what can one do. Have you seen the Augustinian Church in Limerick City, Ireland. One wonders where it is all going. I suppose they are trying to compete with Sunday Shopping!!!! 😎
@ake wrote:
3.Why can’t Ireland have something like Westminster (RC) Cathedral or the Brompton Oratory if we have nominally almost as many Caths. as Britain?
I have no answer to this question, but given the wholesale destruction of much of our eccliesiatical architectural heritage, may it is just as well. Can you image what would happen if some of our more notorious re-orderers were let loose in something like the Brompton Oratory.:eek:
We should be grateful to the late Bishop Cornelius Lucy whose wisdom and culture assured the survival of St. Peter and Paul’s in Cork, though I notice that in recent times the altar rails, while surviving, are not in their original positions. This is a detail that can be attended to at a later date. Concerning the spire, I would have to note that there is presently in Cork (both ecclesiastical and civil) a very deep lack of imagination – something painfully evident during the so called “culture” jamboree that went on there during most of last year. The best that could be produced were “fireworks” (though credit must be given for the silver exhibition and the James Barry exhibition, probably the only items of cultural importance from Cork2005). Surely, THE millennium project for Cork city should have been the completion of the spire of St, Peter and Paul’s? Technically this is more than possible and, if anything of the civic and philantropic (not to mention religious) spirit still prevails in the city of Cork, funding should have been readily available from the ever expanding tribe of Cork’s merchant princes. Our colonial counterparts, far away as they may be, do not seem to lack the guts and know-how to face major projects such as putting the spires on St. Peter and Paul’s. Sydney finally got around to completing St. Mary’s Cathedral by putting the spires on the towers of their cathedral – a project that had the full support of the city authorities and the governmaent of New South Wales. We could learn a good deal from this example. What will be left in Cork in two hundred years to commemorate the millennium?
Talking of spires (previous posting by Praxiteles), here is an interesting photo of the construction of the soaring spire of Cobh Cathedral.
Even before St Colman’s Cathedral was built, Cobh was a very desirable and salubrious place to live, as the Dublin Penny Journal of 1832 makes clear:
Cove certainly is a delightful sea shore residence. The town is situated on the steep side of the hill, with a southern exposure; beneath it, and around it extends the noble landlocked harbour, surrounded by fine demesnes; it is clean, from the steepness of the hill on which it is built: and dry, from its southern exposure. It is deservedly considered a place favorable to invalids; and we believe no situation in Ireland enjoys so mild and genial a climate; perhaps the air may be rather moist for some constitutions; but if that is found to be no objection, let those in search of a milder climate, try Cove; in the spring of the year more especially it is not subjected to those keen withering easterly winds, that are so detrimental to weakly frames, and under which many still suffer who seek for health in the south of France, and the shores of the Mediterranean. Let any one read Starke’s Travels in France and Italy, and they will find that Montpelier, Nice, Genoa, and Naples, all suffer under distressing winds in the spring season-that the Vent de Bize, or the Sirocco winds, blowing from the parched shores of Africa, are intolerable to any delicate constitution, and many only proceed to those boasted southern shores to live with less comfort, and die the sooner-far from friends, and all those accommodations, and associations that smooth the pillow, and alleviate the sufferings of the invalid. We have seen a residence in Cove restore many to health; and even to those who need no physician, Cove, for a great part of the year, must be a delightful residence. Not only the beauty of the surrounding country-the lively society afforded by the shipping in the harbour-the ready and rapid communication with the city of Cork; the cheapness of all sorts of provisions, and the abundant supply of the best fish, render it a very attractive place of resort; and we only regret that certain circumstances have, for the present, diminished its importance.
The full text is to be found at the following link:
http://www.libraryireland.com/articles/covecork/index.php
http://www.libraryireland.com is an excellent resource for internet access to many out of print books of Irish interest, including Lewis’ Topographical Dictionary of 1837. Do visit!
Cobh certainly is an attractive place but it seems to have an image problem when you talk to Cork people. They will tell you it’s rough, has lots of unmarried mothers etc. I think it suffers from it’s past as a Navy/Dockers/British Garrison town. It doesn’t attract the middle classes like Kinsale for example.
I don’t mean to slag off Cobh, I’ve always enjoyed it and there is some great architecture in the town (spoiled somewhat by the PVC windows plague) but it does have image problems.
Anto, you are right, Cobh does have an image problem. The middles classes are well represented in Cobh, but they are vitually invisible, in that they socialise and shop outside of Cobh. This problem has been compounded in recent years by a huge influx of people to the new vast housing estates, many of whom have never driven into the town of Cobh.
It is becoming a dormitory town, without the comercial benefits. West Beach the main street in Cobh is becoming a wilderness, not helped by the recent introduction of parking charges, which has driven even more people to shop in Midleton and the new shopping centres in Mahon Point and Blackpool. The longer this goes on the less attractive is Cobh to potential retailers and as one shop after the next closes the relative attractiveness of Cobh decreases.
I have to say that the natives have much to answer for in this regard. They do not support their town and when some brave individual starts a business in the town they are not supported and very soon, they too leave.
Cobh suffers from all the present day social ill, ie gangs of unemployed youths and unmarried mothers, but these problems are actually no worse than in neighbouring towns, but the reputation is there and that is hard to crack. There are no amenities in Cobh, no cinema, theatre, leisure centre, no open green areas for kids to play in. It has taken about 15-20 years for the derelick swimming pool to be earmarked for renovation – that is happening now, but it remains to be seen how this is run.
Thats enough I think. Cobh is still a beautiful place and there are many people trying to improve and preserve what we have, ie the whole Cobh Cathedral saga.Anto forgets that Kinsale came up in the world as a result of Cobh’s decline. With the heavy industrialization of the lower harbour (most of which is now redundant) in one of the Irish Government’s soviet style five plans, Cobh lost a good deal of its idyllic charm which in turn brought about the abandonment of many of the beautiful 19 century villas along the harbour. The shift to Kinsale was of course topped off by the transferring of the Royal Cork Yacht Club out of Cobh. Clearly, the present bishop in Cobh with his sorry saga in Cobh Cathedral is busily setting about decimating the Catholic Church in the town. As for roughs, unmarried mothers, femmes de joie ou de plaisir etx., well I should say that grottier Cork has its own fair share…. I think I once read something about taking specks out of eyes….. And as for Limerick, well……
What’s happening to these church interiors is in many ways a microcosm of all that has gone wrong in development and planning in Ireland in recent years. Heritage is being destroyed, the countryside is being pockmarked with one off houses and ribbon development contiues to dribble out of many towns. A once beautiful place is being seriously disfigured. 🙁
Does all this not suggest that Ireland needs an equivalent to the powerful and influencial English Heritage to preserve what’s left of the island’s historic urban and rural settings and the architectural heritage found within them?
Can you imagine how far the Dean of St Paul’s in London would get if he proposed a similar type of reordering for that city’s famous centre-piece: he’d be run out of the country!
@MT wrote:
What’s happening to these church interiors is in many ways a microcosm of all that has gone wrong in development and planning in Ireland in recent years. Heritage is being destroyed, the countryside is being pockmarked with one off houses and ribbon development contiues to dribble out of many towns. A once beautiful place is being seriously disfigured. 🙁
Does all this not suggest that Ireland needs an equivalent to the powerful and influencial English Heritage to preserve what’s left of the island’s historic urban and rural settings and the architectural heritage found within them?
Can you imagine how far the Dean of St Paul’s in London would get if he proposed a similar type of reordering for that city’s famous centre-piece: he’d be run out of the country!
Funny, I thought we had a ‘Heritage Council’!!:rolleyes:
Anyone up for running Bishop Magee out of the country, at least until they can secure the Cathedral from his disastrous re-ordering proposals.
But in reality no catholic church in Ireland is safe until something is done about that weasely Chapter 5 of the Architectural Heritage Protection Guidelines for Planning Authorities which deals with Places of Public Worship. Whoever wrote it managed to get into an important piece of planning legislation, justification for the wanton unnecessary vandalism we have seen on this tread.
The solution may lie in running the so called ‘litugists’ ,who are responsible for the philosophy behind this, out of the country.:D
Sangallo, Will Cobh Cathedral remain in tact!!! A million dollar question? And a couple of million dollar job in the making if the Bishop has his way. Imagine a church which still uses the high altar.!! I thought this was liturigically incorrect!!!!!! according to the Bishops in ireland anyway!
:rolleyes:I see from the FOSCC site that they have been granted an oral hearing of their appeal to An Bord Pleanala re the reordering of St. Colman’s Cathedral. They are also looking for art historian and experts in ecclesiastical and 19th century architecture. Are there any about? 😎 It is coming down to the wire!!!!
Word has it on the grapevine that the Heritage Council, when asked to make a submission to an Bord Pleanala about Cobh Cathedral, commissioned words from one RICHARD HURLEY. We have already seen his boring and repetative work earlier in this thread and can appreciate the architectural school out of which he works. While we can only guess at this stage what he had to say about Cathal O,Neill’s proposals for St. Colman’s, I will hazard a guess that Richard will not find much amiss about them. The French would give this as a good example of how to menager les choux avec le chevre!!!!!!
@Praxiteles wrote:
Word has it on the grapevine that the Heritage Council, when asked to make a submission to an Bord Pleanala about Cobh Cathedral, commissioned words from one RICHARD HURLEY. We have already seen his boring and repetative work earlier in this thread and can appreciate the architectural school out of which he works. While we can only guess at this stage what he had to say about Cathal O,Neill’s proposals for St. Colman’s, I will hazard a guess that Richard will not find much amiss about them. The French would give this as a good example of how to menager les choux avec le chevre!!!!!!
Praxiteles, I think you mean the Arts Council !!
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