Dublin Port – Feasible or not?

I would agree completely, dodger, about comparing like with like and I also agree that our economic success does compare very favourably with the likes of Germany. The problem is, if we cannot compare Ireland to Germany and Austria – considered wealthy and developed countries, at least for the last 30 years, and we cannot compare Ireland with Spain – considered to be traditionally poor and limited economically and infrastructurally, who then can we compare Ireland to? Indeed, why do we need to compare it to any other country at all? We need to compare it with other EU countries as that is exactly how the concept of the Celtic Tiger was derived – by comparing the statistics of our economic growth against those of our European neighbours. This is where the politicians get their ammunition to crow about the Celtic Tiger and it is where the journalists source their comparative information. Of course there is nothing wrong with this, unless of course it is not in the best interests of the State. And this appears to be one case where that is happening. Ireland was , oddly enough, more than happy to compare itself to Germany in the 70s and 80s when it meant getting more money out of the EU!

Returning to the issue of comparing like with like. In the 1920s and 1930s, Germany was an economic dead-end. In the ‘40s, it was an economic dead-end. Much of the 50s and 60s focussed on re-building and putting some very basic infrastructure back in place. In the 70s things started to get better and have done so up until quite recently really. In other words, it went from a position where it had less than nothing (flattened cities, no political infrastructure, no medical supplies, no industry worth speaking of, no public transport, devastated ports and airports and, most of all, no manpower!). In about 30 years it went from the severest infrastructural and industrial deficit imaginable to become the biggest economy in Europe. Not bad. Yes, the Marshall Plan was a big element of this redevelopment – this is undeniable. It provided the finances to get Germany back on its feet. Following that, however, was it US companies that strengthened Germany’s economy in the 70s and 80s? – no, it was indigenous German industry (BMW, VW, Mercedes, Krupps, Phillips, Siemens etc) that brought it back on its feet and largely kept it there. At the same time, Germany continued to fund us here in Ireland via the EU!!!

Lets consider Ireland. In the 1950s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, it had no major war to contend with, its limited infrastructure (mostly from colonial times!) remained limited, it had no drastic shortage of manpower. It had, however, a reasonable level of political and social stability. In addition, it started to benefit from an injection of funds that probably on a per head of population basis was similar to that of the Marshall Plan in Germany – it enjoyed the billions injected into it each year from the EU. Unlike Germany, however, Ireland has not enjoyed a serious development of sustainable indigenous industry as a result, rather it has continued to depend on external investment, primarily from the US. Since the 1990s, we have enjoyed 15 years of prosperity, but it remains dependent on that external investment and is, therefore, precarious. Neither have we enjoyed a level of infrastructural development that might rightly have been expected during this period of time.

Ireland is truly Europe’s Hamlet – incapable of serious action.

@Maskhadov wrote:

Of course the conflicts in Ireland werent of the same scale as that in Germany but you have to factor in population size. The vast majority of people in northern ireland knew somone who died in the conflict. The entire island was affected and it did hold the entire island back.

In what way was the infrastructural development of the Republic of Ireland affected by the conflict in Northern Ireland? Economically? If so, why did Northern Ireland, which – one would presume – was most affected economically by the conflict there develop such a fine motorway and road network during the Troubles while we in the Republic did not? Seems the conflict had more of an economic effect south of the border than north of it!

I remember hearing a story about some politician who was showing a group of foreign visitors around Dublin in the 1980s and when asked why there were so many dilapidated buildings, responded by saying that it was due to bomb damage. Maybe its urban myth – I don’t know. Someone might be able to verify the story or discredit it. Either way, it is just another example of a rather lame excuse for developmental inadequacies in the Republic.

Whatever about the undoubted human suffering the troubles caused, NI’s economy did not collapse between the 1960s and the 1980s. It may not have blossomed, but neither did it suffer total collapse. As one of the many border county people that regularly ventured to Enniskillen and Newry to do our shopping during those decades, I can vouch for that. It was never a war zone and the conflict’s mortality rate was even quite low (3000 over 30 years is not high as civil conflicts go – ask a Palestinian or a Bosnian). To suggest that the Republic’s economy was somehow severely retarded by the Troubles is, therefore, a fairly exaggerated claim. CJ Haughey did more damage to the Irish economy than any group of terrorists could ever do (back to the moron line).

Again, this is the post-colonial line of thinking – project our inadequacies unto other issues. Whatever we do, we should never take responsibility for the way we are when we can blame it on someone else. With that, I return to an earlier comment of mine on our rather lack lustre talents in the self-governance department.

Tuskar tunnel, Shannon deep port and HSR

At least they made some attempt to stetch cost v. benefits of moving Dublin port and present some numbers for debate.

The Tuskar tunnel is an undergraduate civil engineer’s fantasy which simply could never be justified. Comparisons with the Channel Tunnel are not just naive – they make no sense at all. The latter connects two of the most populous countries in Europe and links, in a direct way, two metropolitan areas each populated by about 14 million people – and thats ignoring the other mainland destinations like Brussels. It makes about as much sense as the campaign by the 46 inhabitants of Inis Biggle for a cable car connection to Achill Island.

Neither does building TGV make any economic sense – we simply do not have the population concentrations in this country to make such a service viable. Maybe in 40 years time when the population of Dublin within the M50 is 4 million and that of Cork is 2, it might make economic sense to consider such a line. Given the real problems this country has regarding infrastructure in general, these fantasy proposals obfuscate the real issues in my opinion.

This was (and is, despite some contextualising debate) about the PD’s proposal on Dublin port. I provided some thoughts on the attitude to infrastructural development in the Republic.

My point was the problem was related to the Irish pysche. We were a post conial nation and it took us a while to get going.

The billions upon billions we received from the EU (and still do!!!) does not qualify as help? As regards Northern Ireland, I ams till waiting to here how it affected the Republic’s economy. Ya, it may have detered some investment in the border counties, it may have cost the army, the guards, and the prison service some extra money, but we rae not talking about major amounts of the nation’s resources. You could cross the border at Blacklion during the height of the troubles and there would have been about 5 Irish soldiers and three gardai there at any one time. There was never a major secuirty operation of any prolonged duration that brought the Republic’s economy to the brink of collapse or anywhere near it.

The money we recieved from the EU will all be paid back, starting in the next few years. We recieved approximately €40bn for infastructure projects (which we spent far better and more efficeiently than anyone else) while at the same time we handed out €40bn in fisheries to Spain and the rest of them. We could have simply declared the waters as Irish and refused access.

The troubles in the north were effectively our cold war in the south. If the country started to move it would have been very destablising. A lot of people wanted a 32 county republic before progress began. Looking back at history in hindsight is a completely different angle than being there and your ignorance is astounding.

In short, ireland wasnt a nice place to live back then, we had massive emmigration, we had a society based on the catholic church which was rotten to the core and corrupt. We had high unemployment and little natural resources. There was no such thing as foreign direct investment. Up until recently the idea of a small country existing was highly questionable. Only large countries could exist. A point you dont even mention.

We were a country who faced 500 years of war, famine and other problem while the continental countries had 500 years of peace and stability (largely) and the nation state. To compare Ireland with a 500 year old nation state is a pathetic sham and your arguement is false.

I do not know how to respond to this. The British Government (not ‘the English’) probably resourced the building of NI’s motorwayS through British tax payers money (that would include taxes paid by workers in NI). What building company physically built the motorways, I do not know. I am sure though that a load of English workers did not pile into a ship to come to build it – local labourers probably contributed a great deal. I could be corrected on that if someone knows a great deal about the building of NI’s motorways.

English / British. Dont get pedantic. The fact of the matter is that the north could NOT sustain itself and all that money came from British tax payers in England and the north sea oil. The north did nothing for itself. Its still €8bn short each year today. A failed state. Actually building the motorways is nothing. All the expertise came from England and there is no skill in manual labour. That point is absolutely irrelevant

!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anglo-saxon government in england. Time to do a bit of research on the cultural, ethnic and political history of our closest neighbour.

Go and do some research of your own and you will find out that although England is a mutli ethnic country. Those in power do not reflect this !!

! Words fail me. I think you are toothing the micky out of me now.

No Im not. You’ve lost the plot on your rant.

Shame on all of you. Quit your nonsense.

@Maskhadov wrote:

You only have to look to China to see what can be achieved in such a short period of time. They went from bog to high rise in just a matter of a few decades.

Yes there’s nothing like a totalitarian dictatorship to get things done!

The effect of the troubles in Nothern Ireland had a massive effect on the South, economically speaking. Ireland was associated with terrorism as this was the only thing that ever made the foreign news and you’re not going to get much foreign direct investment when you’re associated with terror – thus stagnation.

@dodger wrote:

It was McSharry’s cutbacks that kickstaarted the economy not a cash splurge.

Ah come on, the economy was kickstarted because of a number of things. These include massively increased investment in Telecom Eireann to convert the trunk channels to all digital, investment in the RTC system (the so called binary education system-Universities and Technical Colleges working together to deliver graduates) and the lowering of corporate tax rates, not forgetting the finance act, 1987 (the legal basis for the IFSC was in that).

Lots of countries have cut spending-don’t see a wirtschafstwunder in many of them though!

@aj wrote:

If one thing holds this country back its negative attiudes of begrudgers. If we told someone 15 years ago Ireland would be have an economy growing at 6+ % a year , virtually full employment, a booming population and a goverment with more revenue than it knows what to do with

That is exactly the point;

We the taxpayer have worked not only hard but equally smart for our employers; our employers have taken big risks to develop excellent EMEA and US & Asian markets.

The government have taken huge amounts of tax as illustrated so clearly by Rip Off Ireland and both worker and employer are stuck in traffic created by indecision and a lack of investment both transit and shipping facilities. We are not pathetic we are heroic to survive the dithering and incompetence visited upon us in infrastructural under-provision given the economic circumstances of the past seven years.

The development process surrounding our isolated Luas lines is metaphor for all that is wrong in this country; sadly nothing has been learned as the Cherrywood public inquiry will show.

@PDLL wrote:

Personally I don’t see Ireland and its ‘youthful’ infrastructure as pathetic. Slightly embarrassing at times (it is good sometimes to listen or eavesdrop on what tourists really say about the country rather than we like to think they say)]http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1228/motorway.html[/url]

Time for more infrastructural funds – perhaps firearms for the Gardai would be a start.

agreed on both counts