Spinal Tap

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  • in reply to: cork docklands #778800
    Spinal Tap

    08 March 2008

    €1bn ‘new Cork’ takes shape

    By Tommy Barker, Property Editor
    A €1 BILLION property investment unveiled last night for Cork city’s docklands will facilitate 4,800 jobs and create a community of 1,600 residents.

    Developers Howard Holdings set out a stall to lead the southern city’s 21st century transformation and renewal. It promises a world-class docklands renewal project, and said it could be ready to start building by the end of this year.

    Key elements of the developers’ plan include a 51-metre span opening bridge to create access to the overall 400-acre docklands campus, a ‘family’ of three tower apartment cylinders of 30, 20 and 10 storeys, four huge office buildings with over half a million square feet of space, a 200-bed hotel, and a 5,500-person events centre called the Arena.

    It also includes a strongly ‘green’ building agenda (including a publicly-accessible roof garden and trees 96 metres up in the sky on the 30-story tower), public open spaces, and more than 2,200 underground car spaces serving the mix of shops, residents, and entertainment venues.

    On its ‘Passport to the Future’ launch in front of 400 guests last night, the Atlantic Quarter project was described as “the single largest development project ever undertaken in Cork, and a catalyst for other docklands schemes to follow”.

    The overall docks area in Cork runs to more than 420 acres, with about a dozen landowners, and could house 10,000 persons and provide thousands of jobs.

    Developer Greg Coughlan, CEO of Howard Holdings, said the company was committed to design excellence and setting a new environmentally sustainable standard for Cork, Dublin, and Europe, where they also have projects in Britain, Italy, Poland and Portugal.

    Atlantic Quarter in Cork could be largely delivered within a five- year timeframe, and depends primarily on securing planning permission, and also necessary is approval for vital infrastructure such as the iconic €80 million swing bridge, to be the largest in Europe.

    Despite the scale of the company’s plans for Cork at a time of relative property market stagnation on both commercial and residential fronts, Mr Coughlan said: “We are currently building 3,500 apartments across Europe, doing 500 in Cork isn’t going to faze us.” Howards has just sold 320 units in a development of 400 in south London, he added.

    “Sometimes I think the only people who aren’t getting the story of Cork Docklands are Cork people. We often seem to me to be so busy looking around us for someone to blame that we forget to look forward,” he said.

    in reply to: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork #780403
    Spinal Tap

    @malec wrote:

    It went wrong when they decided to build it on the cheap. The cladding is crap that’s why.

    See OFC’s No.5 Lapps Quay for rubbish cladding systems and bizarre colours.

    Anything to save money and an opportunity lost.

    in reply to: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork #780394
    Spinal Tap

    @cubix wrote:

    So looks like the first and last high rise to be built in cork,whats the general consensus down there?personally I think its ok,,maybe a bit stumpy.The pic above makes it look very gaunt,hopefully when its completely finished with the spire and all it will be a improvement.

    Well you also have the 17 storey Co.Hall.

    OCP re planning 32 stories down at Mahon Point.

    There is another proposal at Blackpool for 35 stories AFAIK.

    There are a few more high rise planned for the docklands + 2 more at least on the North side of the river on the drawing board !

    IMO the cladding on the Elysian is a missed opportunity – awful.

    in reply to: cork docklands #778799
    Spinal Tap

    @jungle wrote:

    I think we all know what that means.

    I can’t for the life of me work out what they’re waiting for. Maybe the bribes haven’t been paid yet.

    You know whislt all this drags out into the next decade more than likely Cork City Council and The Port of Cork watch the fantastic Bonded Warehouses behind The Custom House crumble and decay.

    Absolute disgrace.

    in reply to: cork docklands #778795
    Spinal Tap

    @jungle wrote:

    The EU gave approval for tax breaks in 2006. To say they have to get EU approval is a bare-faced lie, not an indication of laziness because it wasn’t done earlier. In the meantime, it put me in mind of this Examiner article from three weeks ago


    Nobody should despair though, tax breaks will be approved shortly before the next election when they’ll still have six months to run :rolleyes:

    Plenty of excuses not to do things and with the construction industry in decline,revenue from building to the exchequer in freefall here is anopportunity to stimulate the sector in Cork over the next 15 years.
    As the Government has made such a protracted mess of Cork Airport,Cork School of Music,Kent Station,Re-opening railway lines and teh National Development Plan,decentralisation etc Why is anyone surprised ?

    Perhaps its better that private developers go ahead without any Govt.input ?

    in reply to: cork docklands #778791
    Spinal Tap

    Keep you powder dry,be patient !

    01 February 2008

    Cowen: Docklands tax incentives must not breach rules

    By Stephen Rogers, Rose Martin and Ian Guider
    THE Government last night said it would not be rushed into securing tax incentives for Cork’s Docklands project without first ensuring those incentives would not breach EU state aid regulations (Minister for Finance, Brian Cowen is pictured).

    While announcing the Finance Bill yesterday, Minister Brian Cowen said the Government was looking at how it could get round the EU legislation to put the incentives in place for developers to take on the e2 billion Docklands project.

    However, he said it would take time and consultation.

    Fine Gael questioned the Government’s commitment to Cork saying it had promised to address the incentives in yesterday’s bill.

    “Last December I challenged Enterprise Minister Micheál Martin about the lack of tax incentives for the Docklands in the budget,” said FG TD Deirdre Clune.

    “Minister Martin claimed at the time that the Finance Bill would address this issue. Clearly Brian Cowen was not listening and the commitment of Martin… must be questioned.”

    However, Mr Martin hit back saying the comments of Fine Gael were “over the top and premature”.

    “Before we move at all we need to establish the types of supports we can give. I have met with the finance minister on this over the last few weeks and I accept his position. Tax relief or grants have to be within a state aid framework.”

    Mr Martin said there was plenty of time as the Docklands project was a 10-year commitment and there was only one significant project on the cards in the next 12 months.

    That project is a e1bn, 30-acre development close to Pairc Uí Chaoimh.

    Jason Clerken, of Howard Holdings, the developer behind it, said the tax break package was not at the forefront of developers’ minds.

    “It’s probably not going to happen in this round, but then it’s all a bit previous because the Local Area Plan has yet to be announced and the Docklands Forum is just starting up,” he said. “The renewal and regeneration of the Docklands will not rest on tax breaks.”

    Cork city manager Joe Gavin said the council will continue to press for supports and to work with the relevant officials. “I take satisfaction from the fact those officials we have been working with have indicated a positive disposition so I would be hopeful we will be successful,” he said.

    in reply to: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork #780378
    Spinal Tap

    @THE_Chris wrote:

    Looks more or less the same with more exterior paneling appearing 🙂

    The panelling is only beautiful ! 😮

    in reply to: cork docklands #778771
    Spinal Tap

    28 September 2007

    €2bn Cork docklands plan lodged within weeks

    By Niamh Hennessy and Eoin English
    PLANS for the €2 billion development of Cork’s docklands are to be lodged within weeks, in one of the largest single applications in the history of the State.

    The development will include two hotels, 600,000 square feet of office space and a 30-storey residential tower.

    It will also include an “iconic building” likely to house a restaurant run by a world-renowned chef such as Richard Corrigan or Gordon Ramsay. Provisions have also been made for a metro system.

    Howard Holdings chief executive Greg Coughlan said his firm has engaged London-based architecture firm Foster and Partners — which is involved in the redevelopment of the World Trade Center site in New York — to work on the project. Work is to begin at the end of next year.

    “What a coup for us to get them in the first place and what a great fillip for the project to attract such a company,” he told a Cork Chamber business breakfast yesterday.

    He said the biggest objection to the development of the docklands was the relocation of the Port of Cork and the vacation of the two Seveso sites — the Topaz and Gouldings’ sites in Centre Park Road.

    The Port of Cork is demanding a €60 million to €65m relocation package to leave the city centre quays but Mr Coughlan said it needed to vacate quickly for the docklands project to move forward.

    He said all parties involved need to sit down together and work out a solution. He did not rule out Howard Holdings contributing to the relocation costs for the port.

    “The Port of Cork must move down-river. Each of us: developers, government, the local authority and the Port of Cork itself must work together to facilitate this critical step and an immediate dialogue needs to commence to achieve it.”

    Mr Coughlan said nothing of scale would happen in the docklands until the two Seveso sites were vacated.

    Meanwhile, the council has made a submission to government seeking the designation of the docklands for targeted tax incentives in the December budget.

    The incentives sought include tax breaks for relocating the Seveso sites, incentives for dealing with contaminated land, incentives for attracting foreign investment, the provision of public infrastructure by the private sector, grant aid for owner occupiers, and tax breaks to provide premises for biopharma, IT, financial services and third and fourth level R&D interests.

    “It is important that provision is made in the forthcoming budget and finance act for whatever supports the Government decides to provide, as uncertainty could cause some developments to be delayed,” said city manager Joe Gavin.

    in reply to: cork docklands #778767
    Spinal Tap
    jungle wrote:
    This is a goog news, bad news article.


    The good news is that someone is actually making plans]

    Design / Planning applications will probably commence sooner and with the price of land in that area only going to increase they are probably wise to take it slowly but with the fire at one of their silos I thought that it may commence sooner though.

    The are in a win – win situation.

    in reply to: Developments in Cork #781974
    Spinal Tap

    @Radioactiveman wrote:

    Ulster Bank, Patrick Street have a pplied for a rear extension which, if the submitted plans are anything to go by, will develop on part of a site formerly occupied by the Hugenot Cemetary on Carey’s Lane. Can anybody confirm this? or clarify matters?

    Thay have a surface car park / yard enclosed by a high wall.I would imagine that this is where they are proposing to build.

    in reply to: Cork Transport #779924
    Spinal Tap

    @PTB wrote:

    I suppose that that means that you could land a fuel-depleted 747 on a transatlantic flight but not fly it back.

    I’m sure a Quantas 747 landed about two or so years back. Some form of a fact finding mission.

    Yes that was the one with the great colour job.
    Hugh and surprisingly quiet.

    in reply to: Developments in Cork #781849
    Spinal Tap

    Its completly out of scale fro Patrick St and the Grand Parade – Washington St.Junction.

    rnotts may be tempted ?

    in reply to: Eglinton Street Tower, Cork #780366
    Spinal Tap

    @murfee wrote:

    Best hoarding I’ve seen in Cork is at Jacobs island. They’ve actually cut into the graphics which gives it look very dramatic against the skyline

    One of the few developments where the hoarding is better than the actual development:) – you could’nt swing a cat in those apartments.

    in reply to: cork docklands #778746
    Spinal Tap
    Radioactiveman wrote:
    Yeah, him coming in here, doing his job properly]

    How dare he bring his “Can do” attitude to this previously tranquil moribund backwater and encourage dynamism and development in a previously run down city.

    Cork is changing and catching up – Oh the shame.

    The cheek of the man.

    in reply to: cork docklands #778724
    Spinal Tap

    @who_me wrote:

    Yes, but in the US the other consortia don’t have to compete with private ventures with significant public funding. The US tends to have better facilities because they have an open and level playing field. It’s easier to raise the venture capital because it’s simply easier to build a venue and profit from it. I think it’s safe to say you won’t see another venue open in Cork now, now that this one has such a leg-up.

    Still nothing stopping a private developer submitting an alternatve application next week is they think that their plans are sustainable

    1 decent sustainable venue /conference centre will suit a city the size of Cork for the foreseeable future

    I don’t care about the media per se, but they are the only way the majority of the public would ever hear about these developments prior to building]A clear and open planning process is a matter of public record where any nember of the public can make an observation[/B]

    This wasn’t the only choice before the council, not does it seem to have been the cheapest (from the public’s point of view) – so why was it chosen? I think that’s a simple question to which we’re entitled an answer – given we’re all contributing to it without any say in the matter.

    Its 8 million to whoever builds it

    It will be part of the massive docklands project,new modern public transport and architecture rather than putting it out the Black Ash wasteland car and public transport dependant.
    You could walk there in 15 – 20 minutes and even srroll down there 10 minutes from Blackrock etc.
    It has only cleared the first hurdle and this location is very convenient to the city centre without disrupting existing established communities or the Mary Leland landed gentry “it was once all sheep grazing around here and a clear uninterrupted view of St.Finbarrs”

    in reply to: cork docklands #778721
    Spinal Tap

    @who_me wrote:

    In the US, they’d relish the idea of competition, and would thoroughly look at all proposals.

    In the US, they’d be far, far more wary of investing public money in a private project.

    In the US, there would be blue murder if the media were ejected from the discussion of public funding.

    I honestly think it’s the best site for the centre, and the size, while not the largest, isn’t too small. But why oh why do we have to have this idiotic veil of secrecy. These public-private ventures sound risky enough as is, but without any openness and transparency how on Earth are we to trust those holding the public purse strings?

    And like in the U.S. if the other consortia think that their proposals are all that sustainable they would go and build it on their own.You have massive arenas – stadia sitting all over cities there competing for events – does the public care – No – they benifit from having a choice yes a choice of events centres.

    Some colleges there have better facilities than entire cities here.

    Screw the media – Do they really care ? Any thing proposed for planning in Cork City 0ve 2/3 stories appears in the Echo “MANHATTAN FOR BLACKPOOL” etc.

    It will all come out in the wash anyway – Cork needs this facility 10 years ago and anything that the City Council can do to make it happen must be welcomed.

    The public money will be paid back tenfold in rates,taxes,contributions.

    Does anybody on earth trust those who hold the public purse strings ?

    in reply to: cork docklands #778720
    Spinal Tap

    @theblimp wrote:

    Sorry Spinal Tap, if it came across as bitter in any way then it read different to what was meant.

    Hand on heart, if the deal was that we could build it but I could never make a cent out of it, I wouldn’t be bothered. Over five years of thorough research has given me an insight into this sector and I genuinely believe that mistakes were made in this process. Ones that will, very sadly, mean that we have all missed an opportunity.

    I’m neither bitter, nor angry …. just sad and frustrated.


    As a Dub native living in Cork I continuously find it sad and frustrating the ammount of times locals have to head to Killarney or Dublin for decent events on a large scale not catered for by The Everyman,Opera House,Triskel etc ( Cork has probably the best Arts infrastructure outside Dublin B.T.W.)
    The Marquee is probably a good barometer of the potential capacity for touring acts with most gigs being sold out and the 3,500 people at some of the more obcure acts still comfortable.

    Cork City is a far more attractive place to live and work and an environment that only tthose trapped in traffic in Dublin or London can only dream about.

    It is the beauty,potential and independance of the place that makes it a great place to live but (theres always a but) Cork need to think big, ambition seems to be stamped on by quango’s elected and unelected always providing reasons NOT to proceed due to some parcohial fears.
    The neglect of the river is being addressed apart from the old stone warhouses behind the custom house and Horgans Quay.An architectural competion for a maritime museum and aquarium,art galleries etc is required as tourists have very little to do in this great city apart from the usual English Market/Shandon/St.Finbarrs etc.
    6,000+ people coming to visit for gigs conferences etc will help.

    I would personally much rather a 8,000 – 10,000 venue for Cork but Cork has lacked this venue for so long we just have to get behind this proposal as this small City loses so much business to Dublin & Killarney.

    The way the City is growing an Odyssey type Arena may be feasable in 10+ years.

    in reply to: cork docklands #778716
    Spinal Tap


    You can agree with me, or disagree with me … that’s fine, but I can assure you that there’s a lot more to come into the mix over the coming weeks and months which will shine some clearer light on how these things have been skewed.[/QUOTE”]

    Sounds like a whole load of sour grapes to me ?

    in reply to: cork docklands #778714
    Spinal Tap

    @who_me wrote:

    I’m actually quite happy with the HH proposal – but what on Earth is going on with the application & voting process?

    Assuming everything was above board, why would the gallery need to be cleared & the media ejected?

    How are we to trust (local or national) Government if they pull stunts like this?

    Anywhere else in the World this development would be seen as essential to the future and well being of a City.

    This country has way too many layers of red tape and quango’s.

    In the U.S. we would build these things and if its a good design and in demand by the community they were the people who determined its ultimate success.

    Cork needs dynamism and developments like this must be welcome.

    See any of the previous proposals for the Clarion Lapps Quay Site an dyou will be glad that Howards got involved.

    They may not be perfect but they get things done.

    in reply to: cork docklands #778712
    Spinal Tap

    @theblimp wrote:

    Not quite as wonderful as all that, I believe. I was connected to one of the other submissions and we raised BIG concerns about the manner in which the process was managed – e.g.: sent initial letter to City Management (CM) on 1st June looking for clarification on criteria under which submissions should be lodged. Many follow-up phonecalls and THREE weeks later we received a reply. This reply came on a Thursday and the submission had to be in for the following Monday (4 days, including a weekend). A request for an extension was denied. We submitted, expected to be called in for further discussion (‘fleshing out’) but nothing more until the media leak last week! There were only four submissions – it wouldn’t have taken a lot to bring each in for a few hours to discuss each submission thoroughly.

    Hand on heart I believe that the HH proposal is too small – 4,000 seats. Our own proposal was for up to 8,000 seats PLUS a second 2,000+ seated ‘green-glens’ type arena PLUS a massive indoor waterpark. Anyway you makes yer choices…..!

    Think of it this way – major show hits Ireland a few years from now. They play 10,000 seats in Belfast, then 10,000 seats in the redeveloped Point – does it make sense for them to then move everything to Cork for 4,000 seats, or would it be better to play an additional night in Belfast/Dublin before heading across to Manchester MEN Arena for the start of the next leg?

    How many big shows even in London sell 10,000+ seats ?

    Killarney has 4,250 seats with hotel facilities etc and manages to attract plenty of world class acts and plenty of punters from Cork and all over Munster.

    6,000+ for a “Marquee” type event is plenty for a City the size of Cork.

    The HH proposal is actually very realistic and feasable.

    Personally Cork needs this badly as I along with others are fed-up with heading to Killarney 7 Dublin for good acts etc.

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