cork docklands
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Has anyone heard about some plan to close the Mercy Hospital and South Infirmary and to house them in a new hospital to be built in the south docklands?
@jungle wrote:
Has anyone heard about some plan to close the Mercy Hospital and South Infirmary and to house them in a new hospital to be built in the south docklands?
There was something in the Irish Examiner a few weeks ago about same.
mazing seeing as how much money the HSE have spent/spending on the Mercy etc.
It would make sense as I am sure that UCC would love to expand into those buildings / sites etc.
24 July 2007
Howard Holdings wins city approval for event centre
By Eoin English
CORK CITY COUNCIL voted after an hour of secret talks last night to plough over €8 million of public money into Howard Holdings’ plans to build a €33 million conference centre in the docklands.
Councillors were asked to back a report from city manager Joe Gavin which recommended they support the company’s proposal, selected by a special city committee, to build the multi-purpose venue. However, they were unhappy with the amount of information they were given beforehand and they cleared City Hall’s public gallery. The media was also asked to leave.
They then quizzed Mr Gavin for an hour-and-a-half on the process which led to the selection of the Howard Holdings proposal, and on the details of the project, before resuming the public meeting just before 7.30pm.
Then, without discussion, councillors voted 19 to seven to accept the report.
It clears the way for Howard Holdings to submit a detailed planning application for the site it owns and which hosted the Live at the Marquee series over the last two years. It is understood the application could be with planners within weeks.
Subject to planning, the company hopes to have the venue open in September 2009. The three-storey glass-fronted building has been designed to cater for:
6,000-plus performances, including 1,150 seated;
seated concerts of up to 4,200;
conferences of up to 2,000;
gala balls of up to 800 diners.
However, the venue could also be configured into smaller modules to host smaller events ranging from 400 to 1,500 capacity. It will be linked directly to a 200-bedroom hotel with a 1,000-seat banqueting hall, and a 1,000-space car park.
Last night’s vote followed a public invitation from Mr Gavin last April for submissions from the private sector to provide a suitable site, design, build, fund and manage an event centre.
Four submissions were received — the Howard Holdings proposal; one from Medaza, who wanted to build the venue at the Showgrounds; Ascon, who wanted to build on a site at Black Ash; and the Hyde Partnership who wanted to build on the Atkins site at the Carrigrohane Road.
An assessment board of senior city officials examined the proposals and recommended the Howard Holdings project.
Fianna Fáil councillor Tom O’Driscoll welcomed the outcome of the vote.
“This has been long awaited. It will do a lot for Cork, making it a year-round destination.â€
Fine Gael’s Joe O’Callaghan said the city has been crying out for such a venue for decades.
Socialist Mick Barry said he voted against the “hand-out to a big business concern†to highlight the fact the private sector has until now refused to provide the city with such a venue.Sinn Féin’s Jonathon O’Brien criticised the lack of public debate on the proposal.
Looks like it just might happen for Cork in 2009.
No wonder the Socialists & Sinn Fein get rattled at the General Elections……
Not quite as wonderful as all that, I believe. I was connected to one of the other submissions and we raised BIG concerns about the manner in which the process was managed – e.g.: sent initial letter to City Management (CM) on 1st June looking for clarification on criteria under which submissions should be lodged. Many follow-up phonecalls and THREE weeks later we received a reply. This reply came on a Thursday and the submission had to be in for the following Monday (4 days, including a weekend). A request for an extension was denied. We submitted, expected to be called in for further discussion (‘fleshing out’) but nothing more until the media leak last week! There were only four submissions – it wouldn’t have taken a lot to bring each in for a few hours to discuss each submission thoroughly.
Hand on heart I believe that the HH proposal is too small – 4,000 seats. Our own proposal was for up to 8,000 seats PLUS a second 2,000+ seated ‘green-glens’ type arena PLUS a massive indoor waterpark. Anyway you makes yer choices…..!
Think of it this way – major show hits Ireland a few years from now. They play 10,000 seats in Belfast, then 10,000 seats in the redeveloped Point – does it make sense for them to then move everything to Cork for 4,000 seats, or would it be better to play an additional night in Belfast/Dublin before heading across to Manchester MEN Arena for the start of the next leg?
Spinal Tap wrote:However, they were unhappy with the amount of information they were given beforehand and they cleared City Hall’]I’d certainly believe that this was NOTa choice of the 4 best proposals for the city with the best one being selected – i’d be interested to know the make up of the committee that chose it and why the public and the media were cleared from the gallery for a decision which involves spending 8 million of the public money
Maybe the other proposals werent as good but how do we know that? And why cant pairc ui chaoimh be fully redeveloped into a sports and event centre? Former councillor and now TD Ciaran Lynchs proposal for a feasibility study to do same is with teh councillors sports and recreation committee, where is that motion at?
i’m delighted at the docklands kicking off and some form of event centre for regular excellent concerts but its the way its chosen is a bit irritating
Agreed Pug – if we’d been part of what we felt was an open and transparent procedure we wouldn’t have any problem with the result.
WRT Pairc Ui Chaoimh we mentioned in our submission that, at the very least, a discussion should be undretaken in relation to some mechanic bringing it inside an organisation overseeing ‘activity’ at that end of the docklands. We would have liked to engage the GAA in discussions about us designing/funding/building a 40,000+ all-seater as part of our overall development. Now however it looks like the city is going to give the GAA some of the showgrounds site (= public money since City is going to have to pay a LOT of money to Munster Agricultural Society as a result of the CPO) for nothing! If it’s municipal money then there’s an argument for a municipal stadium (ie – ALL sporting codes). Mind you this is still Cork, so I shouldn’t be too surprised. 😉
on a separate note, Manor Park and CIe had appealed to ABP the outright refusal of their plans for Horgans Quay by CCC at end Feb 2007 – i thought it was due for ABP decision 5 months later, i.e. around now but looks as if a decision now wont happen until start October 07 – and the midleton railway now wont be done until 2009 – what a joke
@theblimp wrote:
Not quite as wonderful as all that, I believe. I was connected to one of the other submissions and we raised BIG concerns about the manner in which the process was managed – e.g.: sent initial letter to City Management (CM) on 1st June looking for clarification on criteria under which submissions should be lodged. Many follow-up phonecalls and THREE weeks later we received a reply. This reply came on a Thursday and the submission had to be in for the following Monday (4 days, including a weekend). A request for an extension was denied. We submitted, expected to be called in for further discussion (‘fleshing out’) but nothing more until the media leak last week! There were only four submissions – it wouldn’t have taken a lot to bring each in for a few hours to discuss each submission thoroughly.
Hand on heart I believe that the HH proposal is too small – 4,000 seats. Our own proposal was for up to 8,000 seats PLUS a second 2,000+ seated ‘green-glens’ type arena PLUS a massive indoor waterpark. Anyway you makes yer choices…..!
Think of it this way – major show hits Ireland a few years from now. They play 10,000 seats in Belfast, then 10,000 seats in the redeveloped Point – does it make sense for them to then move everything to Cork for 4,000 seats, or would it be better to play an additional night in Belfast/Dublin before heading across to Manchester MEN Arena for the start of the next leg?
How many big shows even in London sell 10,000+ seats ?
Killarney has 4,250 seats with hotel facilities etc and manages to attract plenty of world class acts and plenty of punters from Cork and all over Munster.
6,000+ for a “Marquee” type event is plenty for a City the size of Cork.
The HH proposal is actually very realistic and feasable.
Personally Cork needs this badly as I along with others are fed-up with heading to Killarney 7 Dublin for good acts etc.
I’m actually quite happy with the HH proposal – but what on Earth is going on with the application & voting process?
Assuming everything was above board, why would the gallery need to be cleared & the media ejected?
How are we to trust (local or national) Government if they pull stunts like this?
@who_me wrote:
I’m actually quite happy with the HH proposal – but what on Earth is going on with the application & voting process?
Assuming everything was above board, why would the gallery need to be cleared & the media ejected?
How are we to trust (local or national) Government if they pull stunts like this?
Anywhere else in the World this development would be seen as essential to the future and well being of a City.
This country has way too many layers of red tape and quango’s.
In the U.S. we would build these things and if its a good design and in demand by the community they were the people who determined its ultimate success.
Cork needs dynamism and developments like this must be welcome.
See any of the previous proposals for the Clarion Lapps Quay Site an dyou will be glad that Howards got involved.
They may not be perfect but they get things done.
“How many big shows even in London sell 10,000+ seats ?”
mmm …. pretty much all of them! (02 Arena / Wembley Arena / etc.). Likewise with Birmingham, Manchester and a whole lot more.
In any case that’s not the point I was making – Belfast has, and Dublin will soon have, 10,000+ seating capacity venues. Here in Cork we have a similar catchment (draw an arc 1.5-2hrs from Cork), although 10,000 may be a little too large so 8,000 would (in my opinion) be an ideal max (although it needs to scaleback without looking like a half-empty barn)
Jaysus, don’t misunderstand me … I’m not against one being built…that’s why we submitted a proposal for a suitably sized one. My concern is over the entire process that selected HH as the ‘preferred’ choice. This concern was then compounded by the manner in which last night’s proceedings were conducted.
You can agree with me, or disagree with me … that’s fine, but I can assure you that there’s a lot more to come into the mix over the coming weeks and months which will shine some clearer light on how these things have been skewed.
“In the U.S. we would build these things and if its a good design and in demand by the community they were the people who determined its ultimate success.”
True, but only in so far as they would probably be built to suit an actual requirement. WHO has determined that the 4,000 seats is the right amount for Cork – similarly who knows if our belief that 8,000 seats is correct? The ‘proper’ way would have been to bring in experienced professionals to create a full and detailed brief (i.e.- you need 7,000 seats, mixed capacity of 10,000, supporting 350-bed hotel, etc. etc.) and then use this as the basis for all submissions. This wasn’t done. The councillors, to be fair to them, don’t know how these facilities work so had little choice than to accept the recommendations of a committee who had little knowledge/experience of what the city actually needs. ‘We need an events centre. We’ve got an events centre. Now, on to the next problem’ ….. and we end up with a facility that nobody knows is suitable or not. I believe it isn’t… but only time will tell.[quote=”theblimp
You can agree with me, or disagree with me … that’s fine, but I can assure you that there’s a lot more to come into the mix over the coming weeks and months which will shine some clearer light on how these things have been skewed.[/QUOTE”]
Sounds like a whole load of sour grapes to me ?
Sorry Spinal Tap, if it came across as bitter in any way then it read different to what was meant.
Hand on heart, if the deal was that we could build it but I could never make a cent out of it, I wouldn’t be bothered. Over five years of thorough research has given me an insight into this sector and I genuinely believe that mistakes were made in this process. Ones that will, very sadly, mean that we have all missed an opportunity.
I’m neither bitter, nor angry …. just sad and frustrated.
i’m with theblimp on this one, i dont think its sour grapes on blimps behalf, i too am more than delighted that there will be an events centre, there should have been a concert venue years ago since the time someone had the guts to bring in michael jackson and the likes of oasis/prodigy at their height.
I would question the process of its choosing also and remain sceptical that 8 million of the public purse is spent by councillors, most of whom have no experience in these matters and therefore as was pointed out feel obliged to take the recommendations of a committee that may also not have any experience in these matters . An event centre should have been proposed and a public ocnsultation (e.g. hand out survey at the Marquee gigs) should have been conducted.
You wouldnt have had to use all of pairc ui chaoimh for a concert, surely an area could have been cordoned off or one end been designed to hold 6-10,000 person venue.
Doesnt matter now anyway!
@Spinal Tap wrote:
In the U.S. we would build these things and if its a good design and in demand by the community they were the people who determined its ultimate success.
Cork needs dynamism and developments like this must be welcome.
See any of the previous proposals for the Clarion Lapps Quay Site an dyou will be glad that Howards got involved.
They may not be perfect but they get things done.
In the US, they’d relish the idea of competition, and would thoroughly look at all proposals.
In the US, they’d be far, far more wary of investing public money in a private project.
In the US, there would be blue murder if the media were ejected from the discussion of public funding.
I honestly think it’s the best site for the centre, and the size, while not the largest, isn’t too small. But why oh why do we have to have this idiotic veil of secrecy. These public-private ventures sound risky enough as is, but without any openness and transparency how on Earth are we to trust those holding the public purse strings?
@theblimp wrote:
Sorry Spinal Tap, if it came across as bitter in any way then it read different to what was meant.
Hand on heart, if the deal was that we could build it but I could never make a cent out of it, I wouldn’t be bothered. Over five years of thorough research has given me an insight into this sector and I genuinely believe that mistakes were made in this process. Ones that will, very sadly, mean that we have all missed an opportunity.
I’m neither bitter, nor angry …. just sad and frustrated.
Agreed.
As a Dub native living in Cork I continuously find it sad and frustrating the ammount of times locals have to head to Killarney or Dublin for decent events on a large scale not catered for by The Everyman,Opera House,Triskel etc ( Cork has probably the best Arts infrastructure outside Dublin B.T.W.)
The Marquee is probably a good barometer of the potential capacity for touring acts with most gigs being sold out and the 3,500 people at some of the more obcure acts still comfortable.Cork City is a far more attractive place to live and work and an environment that only tthose trapped in traffic in Dublin or London can only dream about.
It is the beauty,potential and independance of the place that makes it a great place to live but (theres always a but) Cork need to think big, ambition seems to be stamped on by quango’s elected and unelected always providing reasons NOT to proceed due to some parcohial fears.
The neglect of the river is being addressed apart from the old stone warhouses behind the custom house and Horgans Quay.An architectural competion for a maritime museum and aquarium,art galleries etc is required as tourists have very little to do in this great city apart from the usual English Market/Shandon/St.Finbarrs etc.
6,000+ people coming to visit for gigs conferences etc will help.I would personally much rather a 8,000 – 10,000 venue for Cork but Cork has lacked this venue for so long we just have to get behind this proposal as this small City loses so much business to Dublin & Killarney.
The way the City is growing an Odyssey type Arena may be feasable in 10+ years.
@who_me wrote:
In the US, they’d relish the idea of competition, and would thoroughly look at all proposals.
In the US, they’d be far, far more wary of investing public money in a private project.
In the US, there would be blue murder if the media were ejected from the discussion of public funding.
I honestly think it’s the best site for the centre, and the size, while not the largest, isn’t too small. But why oh why do we have to have this idiotic veil of secrecy. These public-private ventures sound risky enough as is, but without any openness and transparency how on Earth are we to trust those holding the public purse strings?
And like in the U.S. if the other consortia think that their proposals are all that sustainable they would go and build it on their own.You have massive arenas – stadia sitting all over cities there competing for events – does the public care – No – they benifit from having a choice yes a choice of events centres.
Some colleges there have better facilities than entire cities here.
Screw the media – Do they really care ? Any thing proposed for planning in Cork City 0ve 2/3 stories appears in the Echo “MANHATTAN FOR BLACKPOOL” etc.
It will all come out in the wash anyway – Cork needs this facility 10 years ago and anything that the City Council can do to make it happen must be welcomed.
The public money will be paid back tenfold in rates,taxes,contributions.
Does anybody on earth trust those who hold the public purse strings ?
@Spinal Tap wrote:
And like in the U.S. if the other consortia think that their proposals are all that sustainable they would go and build it on their own.You have massive arenas – stadia sitting all over cities there competing for events – does the public care – No – they benifit from having a choice yes a choice of events centres.
Some colleges there have better facilities than entire cities here.
Screw the media – Do they really care ? Any thing proposed for planning in Cork City 0ve 2/3 stories appears in the Echo “MANHATTAN FOR BLACKPOOL” etc.
It will all come out in the wash anyway – Cork needs this facility 10 years ago and anything that the City Council can do to make it happen must be welcomed.
The public money will be paid back tenfold in rates,taxes,contributions.
Does anybody on earth trust those who hold the public purse strings ?
Yes, but in the US the other consortia don’t have to compete with private ventures with significant public funding. The US tends to have better facilities because they have an open and level playing field. It’s easier to raise the venture capital because it’s simply easier to build a venue and profit from it. I think it’s safe to say you won’t see another venue open in Cork now, now that this one has such a leg-up.
I don’t care about the media per se, but they are the only way the majority of the public would ever hear about these developments prior to building; and that’s crucial.
This wasn’t the only choice before the council, not does it seem to have been the cheapest (from the public’s point of view) – so why was it chosen? I think that’s a simple question to which we’re entitled an answer – given we’re all contributing to it without any say in the matter.
very pertinent questions which you are entitled to send to your local councillors to ask them? why not email or write or phone them? they serve us the public after all.I will also be asking why the gallery was reputedly cleared.
@who_me wrote:
Yes, but in the US the other consortia don’t have to compete with private ventures with significant public funding. The US tends to have better facilities because they have an open and level playing field. It’s easier to raise the venture capital because it’s simply easier to build a venue and profit from it. I think it’s safe to say you won’t see another venue open in Cork now, now that this one has such a leg-up.
Still nothing stopping a private developer submitting an alternatve application next week is they think that their plans are sustainable
1 decent sustainable venue /conference centre will suit a city the size of Cork for the foreseeable future
I don’t care about the media per se, but they are the only way the majority of the public would ever hear about these developments prior to building]A clear and open planning process is a matter of public record where any nember of the public can make an observation[/B]
This wasn’t the only choice before the council, not does it seem to have been the cheapest (from the public’s point of view) – so why was it chosen? I think that’s a simple question to which we’re entitled an answer – given we’re all contributing to it without any say in the matter.
Its 8 million to whoever builds it
It will be part of the massive docklands project,new modern public transport and architecture rather than putting it out the Black Ash wasteland car and public transport dependant.
You could walk there in 15 – 20 minutes and even srroll down there 10 minutes from Blackrock etc.
It has only cleared the first hurdle and this location is very convenient to the city centre without disrupting existing established communities or the Mary Leland landed gentry “it was once all sheep grazing around here and a clear uninterrupted view of St.Finbarrs”
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