Eglinton Street Tower, Cork

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    • #708759
      lexington
      Participant

      😀 One of the most exciting developments put before Cork city in many years is to be greenlit come Thursday 7th July 2005. Though the notion has been somewhat of an open secret these past few weeks, a source with Cork City Council has declared that the proposal by O’Flynn Construction will be granted subject to approx. 20 conditions [?] after Senior Planner Ronnie McDowell signs his name this Thursday. Details of these conditions will be made clear here either tomorrow evening or Thursday evening latest.

      The project was originally lodged for the 3 acre, former An Post Sorting Office site, last October 8th 2004. Further Information was requested on the development on November 1st 2004, following a questionable planning authority handling of the application. The first request was responded to on December 23rd 2005 and a due date was set for Feburary 23rd 2005 – however, trouble was encountered with the application in the hands of planner Evelyn Mitchell when it seemed as though CCC were only willing to grant permission for the project subject to a near 50% reduction of the 550 basement parking spaces proposed. Other issues that proved a sticking point included light reflection of the tower and the height surrounding block parapets. Additional Further Information was requested and Senior Planner Ronnie McDowell took over handling of the application.

      Where the original Wilson Architecture designed project comprised of 217 apartments over blocks ranging in height from 6 to 8 storeys, w/ a 17-storey landmark tower (70m) in the southwest corner of the site (facing the South City Link Road), 550 basement parking spaces over 2 decks, 7 own-door office units and 5 large bulk-goods retail units – the revised application submitted in response to the Additional Further Information, received on the 13th of May 2005 – altered the plans so that block heights of the parameter buildings reduced to 6-storeys with a set-back level, rearranged building layouts (providing a new ‘pod’ building in Northern end of the site) and new glazing features for the landmark tower (which otherwise remained untouched). CCC concluded that for such residential developments as Eglinton Street, parking spaces as proposed would be generally acceptable given that apartment sizes were generally designed to accommodate long-term residencies (some 3-bedroom apartments extending to 1,900sq ft) and that reductions in space provision would clutter surrounding, heavily trafficked streets with unwelcome additions using the retail, office and residential facilities of the development. The revised application in fact, actually allowed for an increase in apartment unit numbers from 217 to 226.

      Only 1 objection was lodged in response to revised plans – that of a nearby resident Cait Ui Connail, who cites that the development will affect her light and bring unwelcome traffic from persons utilising the retail facilities. The developers have noted in response that among the reasons for such a large basement parking provision was to address such traffic concerns and that the tower overshadowing had been well studied and assessed, concluding that it did not affect nearby residency light given its design, shape and location in the site.

      Should this prove to be the final planning step for OFC with regards Eglinton Street. Construction is scheduled to start in early 2006.



      Note: Apologises for the colouration in the bottom 3 images – but its consequent of light penetration during the image scans.

      [Fingers crossed the conditions aren’t a repeat of that other highrise project that was conditioned to oblivion.]

    • #780186
      pier39
      Participant

      great news about eglintion street!!! 🙂 finally cork is starting to look like a city and a lot less like a collection of tool sheds with some churches thrown in for good measure! only messing, sure amnt i proud of the old girl myself but its good to see eglinton street get planning. will be interested to see the conditions. not a half bad design either – i hear even an taisce were applauding the tower. well done oflynns and wilson. will be interesting to see who next has the balls to propose a decent tower along the docklands. theyll have to top this development substantially. manor park perhaps???

      i hear a 7storey plan is being assessed for the doyle warehouse there on albert quay, anyone know anymore??? lets hope the developers there (talking with twill ltd as well arent they?) do something nice with the quayside while theyre at it too.

      (well done lex on eg st! keep it comin!)

      as someone said on this thing before oflynns will now have the ‘biggest erection’ in cork city! but i say isnt st fin barres 3metres taller? roll on the inferiority complex – the competition ensues!

      as for the imperial hotel ol’ blimpy-boy i believe the timber thingy is to be removed following a treatment by cumnor when their frank ennis works on morgan street are complete. oooo new niteclub for cork! somewhere else to go on those lonely saturday nights when my imaginary wife is away! 😀

    • #780187
      Keen
      Participant

      Hi,

      I thought of starting a construction thread for ES as i believe it holds a title of being Ireland’s first new tallest in the last 40 odd years. This is also the only of the proposed new ‘tall’ towers in the country that is actually U/c. I hope that you guys in Cork could update the rest of us (the odd photo would be nice) as I live in Dublin and would not be able to check the progress there. Also when U2 tower and Hueston gate tower begin construction I will be sure to post some snaps whenever I get the chance. Cheers

    • #780188
      mickeydocs
      Participant

      @Keen wrote:

      Hi,

      I thought of starting a construction thread for ES as i believe it holds a title of being Ireland’s first new tallest in the last 40 odd years. This is also the only of the proposed new ‘tall’ towers in the country that is actually U/c. I hope that you guys in Cork could update the rest of us (the odd photo would be nice) as I live in Dublin and would not be able to check the progress there. Also when U2 tower and Hueston gate tower begin construction I will be sure to post some snaps whenever I get the chance. Cheers

      good man Keen… as an exiled Corkman I’d also like to see some snaps… has this now entered the construction phase?

    • #780189
      Keen
      Participant

      @mickeydocs wrote:

      good man Keen… as an exiled Corkman I’d also like to see some snaps… has this now entered the construction phase?

      Apparently. It would be interesting to know if they have begun excavating yet??

    • #780190
      Angry Rebel
      Participant

      They were piling throughout late May and most of June. Not sure what stage they’re at currently.

    • #780191
      Hoggy
      Participant

      Hi,first post but ive been visiting the site for ages.
      Im not sure if the concrete piles have started yet but i think most of the sheet piling for the basement is in place. Im actually working with HMC for the summer and will find out what is currently being done in there but im not actually in the sorting office myself

    • #780192
      malec
      Participant

      @Angry Rebel wrote:

      They were piling throughout late May and most of June. Not sure what stage they’re at currently.

      I can see the site from my window as we live up above Wellington Road but all I can make out is a large hole in the ground.


      Anyway, I think this thread needs a few images:

      I actually can’t wait until I can see the tower starting to rise. No doubt my family will complain about it blocking our views but I like seeing Cork’s progress from my window 🙂

    • #780193
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      whens the actually deadline and anyone know how much and what type of retail is planned? it would be interesting to see if anything ever comes of the garda car park across the road as it is in the plans for the docklands redevelopment! And whats the story with the site just up the road before the turn off for borenmanna rd next to the petrol station? this has be ideal for good knows how many years and seems to be a fairly good development site, maybe for a drive true or something like that? It actually had a reserved sign up for ages but still lies vacent! Seems to me this kind of thing only happens in Cork but and Id love to knowthe reasons why!

    • #780194
      malec
      Participant

      Just bought myself a camera today, I’ve no idea how to use it yet so don’t complain if the pictures aren’t any good 😀
      The image has been taken with zoom and has been cropped btw.

      Progress, can’t see anything inside the hole but still why not

    • #780195
      Hoggy
      Participant

      The work going on at the moment inside the sorting office involves the anchors for the sheet piling thats already in place there.Work finished today on the piling for the small site at the grotto in Blackpool so the large rig should be moving to eglinton street soon id say

    • #780196
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      anyone know what the story is with the site to the back of this, fronting the quay?der seems to be no movement at all on it! good news though down the road where ocp are putting together another waterfront site by giving the animale shelter some land off skehard road it seems, does this mean mahon point or does he have other land in the area?Not that i can think of any land around there!

    • #780197
      Pug
      Participant

      FRom the Indo – Looks like Eglinton St tower got no objections!

      Cork’s skyline – dominated for 70 years by the famous green dome of the City Hall – is to be changed forever by a 17-storey tower block that is to be built alongside it.

      Developers unveiled plans for the €150m luxury apartment complex yesterday, modestly proclaiming it Ireland’s “most desirable new address”.

      The plans for the 71-metre high building, which are backed by multimillionaire developer Michael O’Flynn, aim to transform an entire portion of the city. Perhaps surprisingly for the Rebel County, there have been no objections to the development, despite the impact it will have on the appearance of the city centre. Set in three acres, the complex will have 211 apartments with secure parking, as well as ground-floor shops, pubs and restaurants. Its centrepiece, the 17-storey tower, will overtake the County Hall as the city’s highest building and will be among the tallest in the country.

      The developers claim that the penthouses will offer “unrivalled” views of the city centre and quays.

      The brochure proudly describes the complex as “a tranquil living environment of trees and water features in the central garden square, all surrounded by the most beautiful apartments in Ireland”.

      The Elysian will be just minutes from Cork’s South Mall financial district and the city centre. It is also expected to prove a lynchpin of the city’s looming dockland redevelopment.

      Trish Stokes of selling agents Sherry Fitzgerald said the development was attracting great interest among would-be buyers seeking “a special cosmopolitan setting in keeping with that available in other modern European cities.”

      Construction has begun and, although building is scheduled to be completed in 2008, the agents believe the apartments will be sold out long before then.

      More information is available on http://www.theelysian.ie.

    • #780198
      Radioactiveman
      Participant

      And a picture of Eglington Street just to prove it. Anybody else think it’s a pretentious name- hard to pronounce and hard to spell correctly. Or is that just me? Looks good though.


      From http://www.theelysian.ie

    • #780199
      Radioactiveman
      Participant

      Aerial view of The Elysian, Eglington Street, Cork.

    • #780200
      Pug
      Participant

      i think it looks great, I am sure the McMahon Bros think so too and will now be wondering why ABP have held them up for so long with their attempts to build a 17 storey tower at water st when this one seems to have gone through without too much hassle……

    • #780201
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      Great images and its actually on site which is great !
      Any news on the Doyles warehouse site fronting the Quays behind the Eglinto St.development.
      Ther must be pressure for the petrol station,bathroom and tyre place to move now plus the garda carpark.I’d say they are all waiting for this to be substantially complete as their site must be appreciating rapidly.
      That whole area has lots of potential.

    • #780202
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Radioactiveman wrote:

      And a picture of Eglington Street just to prove it. Anybody else think it’s a pretentious name- hard to pronounce and hard to spell correctly. Or is that just me? Looks good though.

      I am suprised that this went through without any objections. JDivision, do you really think it looks good? It doesn’t do anything for me I must say. Is there any other views of it available? Incidently, that web-site takes the city marketing to all new levels of comedy. The look on those guys faces is hilarious. It is almost as though they are saying “I wish I had seen what this would really look like before I bought this, instead of buying into all the slogans and flashy images” 😀 . Anyway, I suppose it is best to reserve judgement until it is finished.

    • #780203
      jdivision
      Participant

      @phil wrote:

      I am suprised that this went through without any objections. JDivision, do you really think it looks good? It doesn’t do anything for me I must say. Is there any other views of it available? Incidently, that web-site takes the city marketing to all new levels of comedy. The look on those guys faces is hilarious. It is almost as though they are saying “I wish I had seen what this would really look like before I bought this, instead of buying into all the slogans and flashy images” 😀 . Anyway, I suppose it is best to reserve judgement until it is finished.

      That was pug phil, not me.:D I really liked the original images of it but this is first time I’ve seen it shown in context of full site and I think it’s a bit of a letdown. Will need to see the exterior finish when it’s completed before I decide on it.

    • #780204
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      The low-rise apartments are pretty run of the mill aren’t they?

    • #780205
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Apologies for that JDivision.

      I thought it was your post for some reason. As I said, I would prefer to wait to see what it looks like before I make a definite decision on it, but going on that image I don’t think it looks to great to be honest.

      Anyway, we will have to see.

    • #780206
      malec
      Participant

      Nice image, not a particularly great looking tower or the groundscraper next to it but it’s OK

    • #780207
      Pug
      Participant

      beats victoria cross lads

    • #780208
      kite
      Participant

      @Pug wrote:

      beats victoria cross lads

      😮 The public toilets on Mechrants Quay beat Victoria Mills.:mad:
      Opus awards my arse…i closed my account with Bank of Ireland last year because of that sh*t award.

    • #780209
      joe mulligan
      Participant

      I am trying to find out who the building services engineers are on the Eglington St. project.

      Any info appreciated.

    • #780210
      Maskhadov
      Participant

      all looks a bit low rise and run of the mill stuff.

    • #780211
      -Donnacha-
      Participant

      the victoria cross jibes are getting a bit tiring and hysterical. anyone agree?

      please feel free to mention other buildings in the city people feel are worthy of criticism? there are plenty of examples.

    • #780212
      rebel_city
      Participant

      Fair point – but we have to keep up our opinions so that buildings like Vic.Mills never become a reality again! They’ve won awards but in my opinon – what an utter disgrace and embarrassment to the city-scape!:mad:

    • #780213
      damnedarchitect
      Participant

      Are the ‘Eglinton st’ development and ‘the Elysian’ the same project?!

    • #780214
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @rebel_city wrote:

      Fair point – but we have to keep up our opinions so that buildings like Vic.Mills never become a reality again! They’ve won awards but in my opinon – what an utter disgrace and embarrassment to the city-scape!:mad:

      The fact that you don’t like Tynan’s design does not make it bad architecture. What is truly “embarrassing” is to read subjective ranting on a site that is supposed to be for serious architectural criticism. I am not surprised that you find it an effort to “keep it up”.

    • #780215
      kite
      Participant

      @Dieter wrote:

      The fact that you don’t like Tynan’s design does not make it bad architecture. What is truly “embarrassing” is to read subjective ranting on a site that is supposed to be for serious architectural criticism. I am not surprised that you find it an effort to “keep it up”.

      I agree with rebel_city, but if others want to take the “see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil” approach to the utter rubbish that is Tynan’s & Montgomery’s Victoria Mills so be it.
      Maybe you would care to nominate this pile of vile junk for another award Dieter?,most would prefer to set VM alight to rid the city of this embarrassment. 😡

    • #780216
      jdivision
      Participant

      @Dieter wrote:

      The fact that you don’t like Tynan’s design does not make it bad architecture. What is truly “embarrassing” is to read subjective ranting on a site that is supposed to be for serious architectural criticism. I am not surprised that you find it an effort to “keep it up”.

      I think discussion of the aesthetic of a building is part of serious architectural criticism. The majority of people will only ever see the exterior of a building and therefore the impact of the exterior is extremely important. I’d be interested to know if the bank that financed the scheme were behind the awards. I was in Cork at the weekend and was very surprised by the blandness of almost every new building.

    • #780217
      jdivision
      Participant

      @Dieter wrote:

      The fact that you don’t like Tynan’s design does not make it bad architecture. What is truly “embarrassing” is to read subjective ranting on a site that is supposed to be for serious architectural criticism. I am not surprised that you find it an effort to “keep it up”.

      I think discussion of the aesthetic of a building is part of serious architectural criticism. If you look at the majority of buildings that win awards, it’s the memorable exterior that does it: the Swiss Re tower etc. The majority of people will only ever see the exterior of a building and therefore the impact of the exterior is extremely important. I’d be interested to know if the bank that financed the scheme were behind the awards.

    • #780218
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      @damnedarchitect wrote:

      Are the ‘Eglinton st’ development and ‘the Elysian’ the same project?!

      Yes its the same project and The Elysian is a great name unless you are unfortunate to have a lisp !:)

    • #780219
      rebel_city
      Participant

      @Dieter wrote:

      The fact that you don’t like Tynan’s design does not make it bad architecture. What is truly “embarrassing” is to read subjective ranting on a site that is supposed to be for serious architectural criticism. I am not surprised that you find it an effort to “keep it up”.

      This site is for architects AND anyone with an opinion. I may not be an architect but I am quite capable of judging what I feel to be an attractive building or not. I don’t look at a building like Victoria Mills and say “Hmm…doesn’t look nice, looks quite old fashioned, but era it’s probably really environmentally friendly and the ecustics must be amaaaazing!”

      You’ve a fair point, but I’m entitled to mine – I respect your opinion but I really do think that VIc Mills “flats” are embarassing and bland.

      (Excuse me for continuing a conversation which is not directly related to the Eglington St. development!)

    • #780220
      A-ha
      Participant

      Is there going to be any viewing deck or something along those lines in the building? Would be great if they had an area open to the public.

    • #780221
      Cathal Dunne
      Participant

      Just looking at that panorama of the Corconian skyline, what’s going to happen to those sheds/warehouses between the apartments around the Elysian Tower and the Lee? Are they being rebuilt as well, or are they going to be just done up like those dockland warehouses in CHQ.

    • #780222
      phatman
      Participant

      @Cathal Dunne wrote:

      Just looking at that panorama of the Corconian skyline, what’s going to happen to those sheds/warehouses between the apartments around the Elysian Tower and the Lee? Are they being rebuilt as well, or are they going to be just done up like those dockland warehouses in CHQ.

      Those warehouses went up for sale seperately back along, and do not form part of this development. It is my understanding that Howard Holdings purchased aprt of the site, I could be wrong, and O’ Callaghan Properties the rest? It was mentioned way back in the Look at the state of Cork like thread. In any case, I would be quite sure they would be completely redeveloped.

    • #780223
      Cathal Dunne
      Participant

      I was looking at that especially because they slot really nicely into the whole rebuild. Perhaps what they could do is just flatten everything there and build it up to a 10-15 storey range. It would be good to have another tower about the same size as the Eglinton St biulding (or higher!:) down that end as a contrast and counterpoint. Plus, the tower being beside the river could act as a sort of gatehouse to the whole rebuild. Maybe that’s they should name it that, the gatehouse!:)

    • #780224
      ake
      Participant

      Oh my God tell me they are not going to put that illuminous green cheap plastic shite all the way up the tower! Why is that horrible crap popping up all over the place?! It’s the single ugliest building material I have ever seen anywhere in my life. It should be banned. Can we actually not afford a nice polished granite or sandstone in this country overflowing with money

    • #780225
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      Now that the shaft is up I cannot help but be concerned at the impact this development overall will have on City Hall

    • #780226
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      Now you see it

    • #780227
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      Now you don’t

    • #780228
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      So the tower will pretty much be visible from all angles City Hall is viewed from, what about the “low-rise” parts of the development?

    • #780229
      THE_Chris
      Participant

      Im glad this is going in. Irish cities need more high rise. Its the only way forward rather than the disturbing urban sprawl thats going on at the moment.

    • #780230
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      This tower is a design feature of the overall development and not a solution to sprawl. The tower could’ve been moved to the South Eastern corner of the site which would have greatly reduced the impact on the up-til-now unspoiled vista of City Hall. Only downside, no “gateway” view coming in the southlink.

    • #780231
      goldiefish
      Participant

      The south eastern corner is no more that 20m away from its current location. I doubt the difference would make that much of an impact.

      Remember, people thought the eiffel tower was an eyesore.

    • #780232
      who_me
      Participant

      @d_d_dallas wrote:

      This tower is a design feature of the overall development and not a solution to sprawl. The tower could’ve been moved to the South Eastern corner of the site which would have greatly reduced the impact on the up-til-now unspoiled vista of City Hall. Only downside, no “gateway” view coming in the southlink.

      If I’m not mistaken, you can only see the tower for the last couple of hundred metres of the link anyway, it’s not like you can see it ahead all the way in.

    • #780233
      who_me
      Participant

      To be honest, once it (and presumably, other towers in the South Docklands area) go up, I think they’ll provide a nice backdrop to City Hall.

    • #780234
      A-ha
      Participant

      I like how it’s visible when you’re driving towards the city from the airport. It should look really cool once the spire is on it and it’s all lit up (80 meters I believe when fully completed).

    • #780235
      opus
      Participant

      I like the look of it as well, looking forward to the completion but think that’s in ’08 sometime so a long way to go yet.

    • #780236
      Anonymous
      Participant

      A concrete shaft

      some people are obviously very easily pleased

    • #780237
      goldiefish
      Participant

      @PVC King wrote:

      A concrete shaft

      some people are obviously very easily pleased

      Same can be said for a big spike.

      At least the shaft has a function.

    • #780238
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Meow

      You do no service to this building or taller buildings in general by slagging a certain steel rod.

      Let’s face it the building in question will never look worse than it does now. I don’t know Cork well enough to comment on the site suitabily but when the resident oil man expresses concern, that registers for me.

    • #780239
      kite
      Participant

      @PVC King wrote:

      A concrete shaft

      some people are obviously very easily pleased

      Well said PVC King, I was itching to make a comment on the utterly embarrassing way that some people are holding 18 floors of poured concrete as a milestone of World construction without waiting to see the final outcome. Posting anything but “The King is great long live the King” seems to bring out a defensive attitude with some posters, possibly the same people that refuse to hear a bad word said about one of the biggest planning disasters in Ireland, Victoria Mills. 😮

    • #780240
      vkid
      Participant

      @ake wrote:

      Oh my God tell me they are not going to put that illuminous green cheap plastic shite all the way up the tower! Why is that horrible crap popping up all over the place?! It’s the single ugliest building material I have ever seen anywhere in my life. It should be banned. Can we could not afford a nice polished granite or sandstone in this country overflowing with money

      Ditto. Thats stuff looks horrific enough at low levels never mind it sticking out of the skyline, and in such quantity. Cant see all that green doing anything for the aesthetics of this building in years to come. IMO if you;re going to build up, you need to select the materials very carefully. That green cladding will not stand the test of time visually imo although never seen it used on a building of that height yet so could be proved wrong. Anywhere it has been used it looks cheap and nasty (its all over Galway and looks horrible). They could have at least used some real copper !

    • #780241
      jdivision
      Participant

      Given the asking price of the apartments – I’ve been given indications – they could certainly afford better materials.

    • #780242
      malec
      Participant

    • #780243
      Pepsi
      Participant

      looks good.

    • #780244
      malec
      Participant

      I’ve a feeling this tower’s going to look much too stumpy.

    • #780245
      feen
      Participant

      You are right malec. Seen from clarion it looks a bit stumpy. I would have pushed for an extra 4-5 levels.
      A funny thing about this development is the name. The Elysian.:D in Greek mythology The Elysian ..fields were the final resting place of the souls of the heroic and the virtuous:D Funny coincidence.

    • #780246
      PTB
      Participant

      Yeah I thought that the tower would be a lot taller and slender, but once the elevator shaft went up I thought that it looked fairly small. Hopefully the spire will add to its impression of height

    • #780247
      darkman
      Participant

      I think this building is 70 metres tall. Is it?

      Anyhow for a small city like Cork to even have that is good in my view. Realistically demand for housing or offices would constrain the asspirations of developers to go taller then this IMO. I just dont think Cork can sustain a few 70 metre buildings never mind taller ones. Anyway you can all be delighted that for the next few months you have the tallest building in the state;)

    • #780248
      phatman
      Participant
      darkman wrote:
      I think this building is 70 metres tall. Is it?

      Anyhow for a small city like Cork to even have that is good in my view. Realistically demand for housing or offices would constrain the asspirations of developers to go taller then this IMO. I just dont think Cork can sustain a few 70 metre buildings never mind taller ones. Anyway you can all be delighted that for the next few months you have the tallest building in the state]

      We’ve been delighted for the last 40 years 😉

    • #780249
      darkman
      Participant
      phatman wrote:
      We’ve been delighted for the last 40 years ]

      hehe this reminds me of the bitter Texans in America – ‘we have the longest roooooad’……Anyway when is the next 120 metre + tower going to be planned to keep up with the real capital?:D 😉

      BTW was this building actually planned to be higher at any stage?I agree it looks a bit bulky which will take away a bit from the height asspect. Though hard to say until its finished.

    • #780250
      Leesider
      Participant

      and we still have the longest building in ireland as well……..tis great being from the real capital!!!:p 😉

    • #780251
      mickeydocs
      Participant
      darkman wrote:
      hehe this reminds me of the bitter Texans in America – ‘we have the longest roooooad’……Anyway when is the next 120 metre + tower going to be planned to keep up with the real capital?:D 😉

      What a sad man you are!

    • #780252
      darkman
      Participant

      Dont start getting ratty, Only a joke.

    • #780253
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      owen o callaghan has said recently that he has plans for two towers at mahon point

    • #780254
      Anonymous
      Inactive
      daniel_7 wrote:
      owen o callaghan has said recently that he has plans for two towers at mahon point one of which will be 32 storys and theres also plans for taller buildings else where in the city and in the docklands!maybe if dublins planners hade found taller buildings a few years ago it might not have become europes finest case of urban sprawl!
    • #780255
      who_me
      Participant

      @darkman wrote:

      BTW was this building actually planned to be higher at any stage?I agree it looks a bit bulky which will take away a bit from the height asspect. Though hard to say until its finished.

      (Apologies for resurrecting another old thread, but..) I might be wrong, but I was under the impression the top 2 floors were some manner of penthouse, in which case the elevator shaft might not go to the top floor? I.e. it might be a bit taller than the elevator shaft might indicate.

    • #780256
      tfarmer
      Participant

      Take that manhatten!.. you got nothing on cork what with its new 70 meter tower

    • #780257
      mickeydocs
      Participant

      @tfarmer wrote:

      Take that manhatten!.. you got nothing on cork what with its new 70 meter tower

      Mr. tfarmer obviously doesn’t know how to use a spell-checker.

    • #780258
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      As a house owner overlooking eglington street tower i can only hope to see more of these developments transforming the urban cork skyline.Bring on manhatton?????

    • #780259
      who_me
      Participant

      @yotty wrote:

      As a house owner overlooking eglington street tower i can only hope to see more of these developments transforming the urban cork skyline.Bring on manhatton?????

      I left my sarcasmometer at home, so I don’t know if you’re serious or not! 😉 But, as someone buying an apartment which will be ..err… “underlooking” The Elysian, I think it’s a fine building – though I still haven’t seen any views of the North/river elevation.

      What I’d be less keen on is the 7/8 storey monolith beneath the tower. I thought the compelling argument for taller buildings is building up is better than building out – here it seems to be building up AND out.

    • #780260
      opus
      Participant

      Took a few pics of the current state of the tower last week.


    • #780261
      malec
      Participant

      Have lots of pictures from yesterday, will post them soon.

    • #780262
      darkman
      Participant

      For a city the size of Cork that looks quite impressive. They dont seem to be working particulaly fast on it though. It will be interesting to see what the facade looks like when its finished. If its majority glass that tends to give the illusion of extra height. Hope the facade is nice.

    • #780263
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      @darkman wrote:

      For a city the size of Cork that looks quite impressive. They dont seem to be working particulaly fast on it though. It will be interesting to see what the facade looks like when its finished. If its majority glass that tends to give the illusion of extra height. Hope the facade is nice.

      “Fast on it enough” ?

      Its literally flyimg up !

      They have commenced the curtain walling and the other blocks are coming up at the base.

      It started after Cornmarket St. shopping centre and probably be finished before it !

    • #780264
      mickeydocs
      Participant

      @Spinal Tap wrote:

      “Fast on it enough” ?

      Its literally flyimg up !

      They have commenced the curtain walling and the other blocks are coming up at the base.

      It started after Cornmarket St. shopping centre and probably be finished before it !

      I wouldn’t even reply to Darkman, he’s obviously here to try and annoy us… as he lives in the city that even rivals Tokyo for population and level of cultural attainment, oh no I just checked, he only lives in that shithole up the road where our government is based.

    • #780265
      darkman
      Participant

      How is saying that is ‘impressive for a city the size of Cork’ annoying to you? Is that not true……….perhaps you would prefer me to say that the town should have 30 storey tower blocks and ten lane highways and a couple of segregated metro systems:rolleyes:

    • #780266
      -Donnacha-
      Participant

      Don’t be silly Darkman.

      Why would the Cork Metro lines be segregated? They should all join up, obviously! 😀

    • #780267
      who_me
      Participant

      There is (or at least, was) a great view of the ‘Northern Ridge’ as you come in along the link road into the city centre, does anyone know if either the tower or the main block will obscure this?

    • #780268
      malec
      Participant

      Guys calm down, I really doubt darkman meant to offend anybody by saying it’s not going up that fast. To be honest it seems fast because when is the last time a tower this size was built in Cork? (never). But there are certainly towers around the world which go up waaaay faster than this.

      Anyway, here are some pictures from yesterday, excuse the dullness of them.

    • #780269
      malec
      Participant

    • #780270
      malec
      Participant

    • #780271
      darkman
      Participant

      Thanks for the pics. Excellent. In the context of Cork being built on a small scale this must look very big indeed. I think its a very good project and at least there is some ambition in it. Like I say it depends on the facade though as to how it will really look. Personally id prefer to see a glass facade.

    • #780272
      mickeydocs
      Participant

      @darkman wrote:

      Thanks for the pics. Excellent. In the context of Cork being built on a small scale this must look very big indeed. I think its a very good project and at least there is some ambition in it. Like I say it depends on the facade though as to how it will really look. Personally id prefer to see a glass facade.

      Rather than the unambitious endless nameless that passes in Dublin.

    • #780273
      darkman
      Participant

      @mickeydocs wrote:

      Rather than the unambitious endless nameless that passes in Dublin.

      You need to lose the chip on your shoulder I think. I never mentioned Dublin for the record.

    • #780274
      tfarmer
      Participant

      people are getting a little over excited about what is essentially an medium to average sized tower, lets be honest. I laugh when i hear locals in my area saying ‘gezzz did you see the new skyscraper going up down the whole tisss hugeee’….

    • #780275
      tfarmer
      Participant

      also gotta laugh at the whole ‘ a very stylish affair’ sign you’d think they were advertising clothes…lmao

    • #780276
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      @who_me wrote:

      There is (or at least, was) a great view of the ‘Northern Ridge’ as you come in along the link road into the city centre, does anyone know if either the tower or the main block will obscure this?

      The tower will have clear planar glazing from floors 10 to 17 throughout so that motorists on the South Link can view the North Ridge.Remember everyone in Cork is entitled to an uninterrupted view of St.Finbarrs Cathedral and Shandon.

    • #780277
      Angry Rebel
      Participant

      It would seem they are also entitled to a full voyuers view of whoever lives in the apartments as well!

    • #780278
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      @Angry Rebel wrote:

      It would seem they are also entitled to a full voyuers view of whoever lives in the apartments as well!

      Hopefully.

      Will the be allowed to hang washing out the windows ?

    • #780279
      mickeydocs
      Participant

      @darkman wrote:

      You need to lose the chip on your shoulder I think. I never mentioned Dublin for the record.

      No chip on my shoulder… I lived in Dublin long enough to know what a crap city it is… a glorified city with an awful quality of life – full of arrogant toss pots like you.

    • #780280
      darkman
      Participant

      @mickeydocs wrote:

      No chip on my shoulder… I lived in Dublin long enough to know what a crap city it is… a glorified city with an awful quality of life – full of arrogant toss pots like you.

      Arrogant? Me thinks your a troll. Give up the trolling – its sad…

      Oh and yes you have a very big chip on your shoulder. Your in denial….

    • #780281
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      @darkman wrote:

      Arrogant? Me thinks your a troll. Give up the trolling – its sad…

      Oh and yes you have a very big chip on your shoulder. Your in denial….

      Lads.

      This is juvenile.The argument of who has the “bestest” city is stupid.

      As a Dub who is living in Cork for 4 years I would’nt dream of moving back (or be able to afford probably)
      Living in Cork is like a working holiday,West Cork on your doorstep,Kerry and the coast/harbour nearby always.
      Kinsale 25mins away.Cork feels right for me right now and if there is some gis/match on just get the train or Ryanair.I love Dublin but it has all the hassles and very few of the conveniences of a big city.

      Not for me.

    • #780282
      damnedarchitect
      Participant

      There is an argument Cork people use. It is somewhat like the one used by creationists against evolution.

      It goes a little like this:

      Dublin is crap, therefore by default Cork is great. QED.

      No joy folks, I’m afraid.

    • #780283
      darkman
      Participant

      I dont know why one particular contributer is so obsessed with bringing Dublin into a thread about Cork. The two are not even comparable:confused: Comparing Cork with Cardiff or Edinburgh might be more appropriate as its a similar size.

    • #780284
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      @damnedarchitect wrote:

      There is an argument Cork people use. It is somewhat like the one used by creationists against evolution.

      It goes a little like this:

      Dublin is crap, therefore by default Cork is great. QED.

      No joy folks, I’m afraid.

      Exactly a voice of reason at last.

      Maybe the are both Crap and Waterford is great !:D

    • #780285
      Pug
      Participant

      waterford is great you said?

      impossible – martin cullen is from there

    • #780286
      mickeydocs
      Participant

      @darkman wrote:

      Arrogant? Me thinks your a troll. Give up the trolling – its sad…

      Oh and yes you have a very big chip on your shoulder. Your in denial….

      got a plan to go bush drinking with your scanger mates on O’Connell street later?

    • #780287
      darkman
      Participant

      @mickeydocs wrote:

      got a plan to go bush drinking with your scanger mates on O’Connell street later?

      You have issues thats all I will say and maybe leave it to a mod to take a look at the provocative nature of your posts.;)

    • #780288
      who_me
      Participant

      @Spinal Tap wrote:

      The tower will have clear planar glazing from floors 10 to 17 throughout so that motorists on the South Link can view the North Ridge.Remember everyone in Cork is entitled to an uninterrupted view of St.Finbarrs Cathedral and Shandon.

      Sheesh.. is everyone a comedian these days? :p

      The link road is the route along which lot of new visitors approach Cork (from the airport), and as you come around the bend in the link road with the hill in front of you it’s a pretty impressive introduction to the city. I’m just saying it’s a pity that may be lost.

      Keep your panties on, ’tis not like I’m saying we should knock the thing, or shift it 4 feet to the left. Though I’m tempted now, just out of spite! 😉

    • #780289
      tfarmer
      Participant

      but seriously is it a very stylish affair?

    • #780290
      tfarmer
      Participant

      lol i just checked the http://www.theelysian.ie site now thats just taking the p*ss with the images of people with shocked looks on their faces … i was expecting speech bubbles in their mouths proclaming BEEEJESUSSS will ya look at that…ffs

    • #780291
      -Donnacha-
      Participant

      That’s the funniest property hard-sell I’ve seen in ages. Nearly as good as Belmayne’s “gorgeous living” soft porn ad.
      I take it we can expect multiple pileups on the approach road as drivers literally faint in astonishment at the sight of a 17-floor block of flats. IN CORK LIKE!!! JAYSUS!!!!

    • #780292
      who_me
      Participant

      To answer my own question previously – yes, the penthouse does actually go a bit over the lift shaft – 5m over, according to an article on the site.

    • #780293
      mickeydocs
      Participant

      This is an interesting article as I didn’t realize the County Hall is 8 metres higher than Liberty Hall: http://www.theelysian.ie/Enter/Publicity/Default.aspx?img=HatsOff.jpg&pdf=HatsOff.jpg

      I paid a visit to Belfast recently, and one really has the impression that Belfast is a larger city than Dublin.
      How come Belfast has a much more interesting skyline than Dublin. Why is Dublin so bland compared to other cities of similar size such as Liverpool and Manchester (although Greater Manchester claims a population of 3.5 million)?

    • #780294
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      @mickeydocs wrote:

      This is an interesting article as I didn’t realize the County Hall is 8 metres higher than Liberty Hall: http://www.theelysian.ie/Enter/Publicity/Default.aspx?img=HatsOff.jpg&pdf=HatsOff.jpg

      I paid a visit to Belfast recently, and one really has the impression that Belfast is a larger city than Dublin.
      How come Belfast has a much more interesting skyline than Dublin. Why is Dublin so bland compared to other cities of similar size such as Liverpool and Manchester (although Greater Manchester claims a population of 3.5 million)?

      Belfast seems bigger allright as Dublin needs to pedestrianise College Green etc for more open space.
      I worked on some of the original Dudlin Docklands in the mid-90’s and the lack of ambition there has given us a bland waterfront.

      Massive missed opportunity which we will have to live with for a long time.

    • #780295
      damnedarchitect
      Participant

      Ehh, are we talking about the same Belfast?

      It in no way seems bigger than Dublin.

      I love Belfast – very handsome city, but the whole thing about it is that it’s TINY.

    • #780296
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Spinal Tap wrote:

      I worked on some of the original Dudlin Docklands in the mid-90’s and the lack of ambition there has given us a bland waterfront.

      Massive missed opportunity which we will have to live with for a long time.

      I thought one of the reasons that the earlier waterfront buildings in the Dublin docklands were the scale they were had more to do with the economic climate of the time rather than ambition? Also, whilst I am sure I am alone in this view, I actually don’t mind the relative uniformity of height in Dublin’s docklands. I am, in particular, a fan of Clarion Quay apartments.

      http://www.irish-architecture.com/buildings_ireland/dublin/northcity/quays/north_wall/clarion_quay_apartments.html

      I also quite like some of the newer buildings on the south quays.

    • #780297
      jdivision
      Participant

      There is a tall buildings survey underway in docklands in Dublin so developers are leaving buildings at that height but putting foundations etc in place to allow a substantial increase in height when it is finally allowed.

    • #780298
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @jdivision wrote:

      There is a tall buildings survey underway in docklands in Dublin so developers are leaving buildings at that height but putting foundations etc in place to allow a substantial increase in height when it is finally allowed.

      This has become quite common practice lately hasn’t it? Interesting approach. I am sure once the U2 tower finally gets under way we could start to see dramatic changes in the area in general.

    • #780299
      paul h
      Participant

      @mickeydocs wrote:

      ……………………… and one really has the impression that Belfast is a larger city than Dublin………….

      Cork city – pop.119.143 (2006 census)
      metro cork – pop.274,000

      Belfast city – pop.277,391 (2001 census)
      Belfast metro – pop.579,554

      Dublin City – pop.505,739 (2006 census)
      Dublin metro – pop 1.6 million (estimataed by CSO to reach 2.1 million by 2021)

      So in summary:
      Cork = teeny tiny
      Belfast = tiny
      Dublin = small to medium
      😀 😀

    • #780300
      darkman
      Participant

      @phil wrote:

      This has become quite common practice lately hasn’t it? Interesting approach. I am sure once the U2 tower finally gets under way we could start to see dramatic changes in the area in general.

      The 34 storey ‘Watchtower’ near the Point Depot is already under construction so when the lift shaft starts going up for that and thoughts of Belfast or Cork having the tallest building on the island will be consigned to the dustbin of history. What will be interesting is if this starts the ball rolling for more skyscrapers. I think once people see the U2 tower and watchtower going up they will probrably realise thsat skyscrapers can be attractive on the skyline and is one solution to endless sprawl which will be a combination of things. Highrise is certainly part of that.

    • #780301
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      Dublin City – pop.505,739 (2006 census)
      Dublin metro – pop 1.6 million (estimataed by CSO to reach 2.1 million by 2021)

      Thats why we have moved to Cork from Dublin.
      60,000 people trying to walk Dun Laoighre Pier or the Vico Road on a Sunday when in 25 – 35mins we could be in Kinsale or Inchydoney beach.

      Phew………….

    • #780302
      Keen
      Participant

      @paul h wrote:

      Cork city – pop.119.143 (2006 census)
      metro cork – pop.274,000

      Belfast city – pop.277,391 (2001 census)
      Belfast metro – pop.579,554

      Dublin City – pop.505,739 (2006 census)
      Dublin metro – pop 1.6 million (estimataed by CSO to reach 2.1 million by 2021)

      So in summary:
      Cork = teeny tiny
      Belfast = tiny
      Dublin = small to medium
      😀 😀

      eh, Dublin doesn’t have a metro yet..that’s a whole other thread LOL

      ok sorry :rolleyes:

    • #780303
      browser
      Participant

      @paul h wrote:

      Cork city – pop.119.143 (2006 census)
      metro cork – pop.274,000

      Belfast city – pop.277,391 (2001 census)
      Belfast metro – pop.579,554

      Dublin City – pop.505,739 (2006 census)
      Dublin metro – pop 1.6 million (estimataed by CSO to reach 2.1 million by 2021)

      So in summary:
      Cork = teeny tiny
      Belfast = tiny
      Dublin = small to medium
      😀 😀

      Seriously can we lose the Cork / Dublin shite (and that applies to posters from both necks of the wood). Yes Dublin is much bigger, yes quality of life is better in Cork and yes one is a crap small international city and the other is a crap medium international city. Can we now concentrate, on the correct threads, with suggestions on how to improve both.

    • #780304
      mickeydocs
      Participant

      🙂 agreed

    • #780305
      -Donnacha-
      Participant

      Would also be usefeul to lose the infantile “my city’s better than your city cos it’s got high rises” obsession.

    • #780306
      corcaighboy
      Participant

      well said browser and andrew p.
      Also, just on the issue of adding extra floors to a high rise at a later date…is that really feasible and has it been done before in Ireland? I presume it would mean an extra 3 or 4 floors only or am I wrong. I guess the aesthetics may change somewhat. Certainly a good idea and it displays some degree of forward thinking.

    • #780307
      browser
      Participant

      @corcaighboy wrote:

      well said browser and andrew p.
      Also, just on the issue of adding extra floors to a high rise at a later date…is that really feasible and has it been done before in Ireland? I presume it would mean an extra 3 or 4 floors only or am I wrong. I guess the aesthetics may change somewhat. Certainly a good idea and it displays some degree of forward thinking.

      Neither were high rise but relatively good jobs were done adding extra floors to a building off Kevin St in Dublin (on corner with Wexford St I think?) and onto the College of Commerce in Cork. I appreciate this is a different principle though.

    • #780308
      paul h
      Participant

      @corcaighboy wrote:

      …………… just on the issue of adding extra floors to a high rise at a later date…is that really feasible and has it been done before in Ireland? I presume it would mean an extra 3 or 4 floors only or am I wrong. I guess the aesthetics may change somewhat. Certainly a good idea and it displays some degree of forward thinking.

      https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=5132

    • #780309
      who_me
      Participant

      @browser wrote:

      Neither were high rise but relatively good jobs were done adding extra floors to a building off Kevin St in Dublin (on corner with Wexford St I think?) and onto the College of Commerce in Cork. I appreciate this is a different principle though.

      I thought I heard there were problems with the College of Commerce extension soon after?

    • #780310
      who_me
      Participant

      Actually, looking at those shots of Eglington St. again made me curious, if the apartments in the tower are (supposedly) so large, does that mean each will take up an entire floor? If so, they’ll have superb panoramic views of the city.

    • #780311
      Pepsi
      Participant

      @darkman wrote:

      The 34 storey ‘Watchtower’ near the Point Depot is already under construction so when the lift shaft starts going up for that and thoughts of Belfast or Cork having the tallest building on the island will be consigned to the dustbin of history. What will be interesting is if this starts the ball rolling for more skyscrapers. I think once people see the U2 tower and watchtower going up they will probrably realise thsat skyscrapers can be attractive on the skyline and is one solution to endless sprawl which will be a combination of things. Highrise is certainly part of that.

      i don’t think dublin’s watchtower is under construction yet. where did you hear that it is?

    • #780312
      Noodles
      Participant

      “Planning Approved
      Full section 25 planning permission has been received for this existing development and construction has commenced” -www.pointvillage.ie
      They even have a huge sign up outside the point saying elvis will open the place in 2009. Its 3 or 4 containers stacked on top of each other with the sign stuck to the front.

    • #780313
      tfarmer
      Participant

      I paid a visit to Belfast recently, and one really has the impression that Belfast is a larger city than Dublin.
      How come Belfast has a much more interesting skyline than Dublin. Why is Dublin so bland compared to other cities of similar size such as Liverpool and Manchester (although Greater Manchester claims a population of 3.5 million)?

      probably because they have more taller buildings in belfast giving it the appearance of being larger. I agree though belfast does look bigger then dublin even glasgow looks a lot bigger and its simply because of the number of high rise buildings in both cities.

    • #780314
      damnedarchitect
      Participant

      @tfarmer wrote:

      I paid a visit to Belfast recently, and one really has the impression that Belfast is a larger city than Dublin.
      How come Belfast has a much more interesting skyline than Dublin. Why is Dublin so bland compared to other cities of similar size such as Liverpool and Manchester (although Greater Manchester claims a population of 3.5 million)?

      probably because they have more taller buildings in belfast giving it the appearance of being larger. I agree though belfast does look bigger then dublin even glasgow looks a lot bigger and its simply because of the number of high rise buildings in both cities.

      Belfast doesn’t seem larger. It is a Victorian city – it is bulkier alright. But it ‘feels’ smaller to me every time I go. Less busy, fewer people, slower pace.

    • #780315
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @tfarmer wrote:

      I paid a visit to Belfast recently, and one really has the impression that Belfast is a larger city than Dublin.
      How come Belfast has a much more interesting skyline than Dublin. Why is Dublin so bland compared to other cities of similar size such as Liverpool and Manchester (although Greater Manchester claims a population of 3.5 million)?

      probably because they have more taller buildings in belfast giving it the appearance of being larger. I agree though belfast does look bigger then dublin even glasgow looks a lot bigger and its simply because of the number of high rise buildings in both cities.

      Why is this being discussed again?

    • #780316
      -Donnacha-
      Participant

      I don’t really understand the ‘my city looks bigger than your city’ stuff that goes on here.

      None of Ireland’s city centres are particularly overwhelming. Dublin’s core is essentially a small Georgian city with victorian and edwardian bits added on sorrounded by lots of post 1960s sprawl. As an administrative centre, it has a collection of rather more grandeous buildings than those found elsewhere.

      Belfast’s a small, relatively unspectacular victorian industrial city (not saying that’s a bad thing) with lots of urban sprawl.

      Cork’s a small slightly more quirky maratime/commerical somewhat georgian city with victiorian institutional, commerical and industrial add-ons and somewhat less urban sprawl.

      Limerick, Derry, Galway are extremely small cities with the odd interesting bit of architecture and small scale post 60s sprawl. Their cores are nice, but really not much more extensive than a town.

      Anything else is just a big town really.

      As for Northern English cities, they’re all rather unspecatcular and small city centrewise too. Many being more highrise than Dublin because there wasn’t a whole lot there to start with, they were largely just industrial centres that were often quite grim. Also, WWII didn’t help much as they lost a lot of buildings to the blitz.

      As for Dublin, the Loop Line bridge actually makes the city feel a lot smaller than it is, by isolating the old city centre from the customs house and the whole docklands / IFSC development as well as blocking the view of the harbour and Dublin bay.

      It’s really as ugly as one of the ‘green monsters’ in Boston. Shame really it’s not re-routable.

      Cork’s Docklands project should be a lot more connected to the City as there isn’t that same “City Centre” vs “Quays” vs “Docks” divide.
      The South Mall basically leads straight into the edge of the Docklands. It should have a nice feel when it’s finished!
      Even the first parts of the development i.e. new stuff along Lapps Quay is very accessible from the city centre. It doesn’t feel isolated or cut off.

      Where as in Dublin the IFSC is very cut off, you wouldn’t really feel like wandering down there on foot.
      Smithfield is similar too, completely isolated from the city centre unless you jump in a Luas.
      There’s also a very odd divide between the Dublin 1 and Dublin 2 shopping districts. i.e. Grafton Street and Henry Street.
      O’Connell Street and O’Connell bridge completely sepeate them. It’s very odd, as you’d really expect there to be much more commercial and retail development on O’Connell street linking the two areas. Never quite understood why O’Connell Street hasn’t developed properly. Is it entirely down to heavy traffic ?

      Anyway – perhaps that’s best left to another thread.

      I general though, Cork’s quite a well-integrated pedestrian friendly city by Irish standards and seems to be heading rapdily towards being a very pleasant space to wander around.

    • #780317
      corkdood
      Participant

      In my view the sales of the apartments in the Elysan (Eglinton Street) building will be an interesting barometer for the future prospects for residential development in the docklands. With the recent slowdown in the residential property market appearing to pick up pace it seems to me that in 6 months time no one will want to buy an apartment in the city as there will be thousands on the market. Compounding the problem will be the forthcoming changes in stamp duty legislation which will encourage first time buyers to buy their home for life as opposed to a starter home. Fact is most Irish people do not view apartments as homes for life.

      I feel that the elysian will prove to be an expensive mistake that won’t sell at a price that will generate profits for its backers.

      Having said that it is a landmark building in a great location for anyone working in town. Time will tell I suppose but I wonder are the developers saying rosaries for the health of the housing market given their large investment.

    • #780318
      who_me
      Participant

      I think the tower apartments should sell well, considering their size, views, location and the novelty of the tower itself (all assuming they’re priced affordably!). The lower, 8 storey building I’d be less confident of.

    • #780319
      Angry Rebel
      Participant

      In my view, a “home for life” is something like a 3/4 bed semi-d or detached. That will cost you anywhere from €400-800k in Cork. If you are a first time buyer who can afford that I’d like to meet you and see your wageslip….and there will not be thousands of apartments on the market, but I presume that’s just a little colourful hyperbole?

      I agree with Who_Me.

    • #780320
      corkdood
      Participant

      From what I’ve read the apartment prices at the Elysian won’t be any cheaper than that Angry Rebel.
      i truly believe that by the end of the year/early 2008 buy to let investors will be trying to offload their investments on the market left right and centre. So yes in my view there could be thousands of apartments on the market.by the time Eglinton street goes for sale.

    • #780321
      kite
      Participant

      @corkdood wrote:

      From what I’ve read the apartment prices at the Elysian won’t be any cheaper than that Angry Rebel.
      i truly believe that by the end of the year/early 2008 buy to let investors will be trying to offload their investments on the market left right and centre. So yes in my view there could be thousands of apartments on the market.by the time Eglinton street goes for sale.

      Many people that I have spoken to over the past six months that would have been in the market for apartments are now thinking of going that extra bit to buy a stand alone house.
      The main reasons are;
      Management Company’s rip offs.
      😮 30-45,000 euro per car parking space.
      😮 Management fees going up from 1000pa euro in 2004, 2000pa euro in 2005, 3000pa euro in 2006 (2007 ??, June 25th will tell!!)
      😮 No City Council parking permits to be issued to apartment dwellers whose apartments were built since 2004.
      😡 Owner occupiers been unable to control management company’s until the entire complex is sold out (developers are holding onto 2-3 apartments to hold control of management Company’s)
      In my opinion the proposed Government reform of the Management sector will come too late to save the market.

    • #780322
      tfarmer
      Participant

      Limerick, Derry, Galway are extremely small cities with the odd interesting bit of architecture and small scale post 60s sprawl. Their cores are nice, but really not much more extensive than a town.

      sorry i have to disagree with you. Limerick has a city feel to it and looks like a city. If they extend the boundary of limerick city which is pathetically small to areas like castletroy which is now a large area in itself with a population of over 22,000 it would be considered a city even by international standards. I agree with you about derry and galway though.

    • #780323
      tfarmer
      Participant

      remember cities are not defined cities solely because of population, or number of buildings in the cbd area. There are cities in the united states with populations of less then 20,000. As for limerick and galway not being much more extensive then a town….which towns are you talking about there because by irish standards even by international standards they are a lot more extensive then quite a few towns.

      a city is defined as ‘ an urban settlement with a particularly important status which differentiates it from a town’

    • #780324
      PTB
      Participant

      Yeah theres loads of tiny places in the US called cities, and they tell you that too, Junction City, Great Plains City etc.

      What is the population limit for a city in Ireland? And are there any places that might be a city soon? I think Sligo and Clonmel are going that way.

    • #780325
      rebel_city
      Participant

      I heard Sligo being referred to as ‘Sligo City’ last week on the radio! I laughed. – Has nothing to do with the title of this thread, but just continuing on from previous comments.

    • #780326
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      @rebel_city wrote:

      I heard Sligo being referred to as ‘Sligo City’ last week on the radio! I laughed. – Has nothing to do with the title of this thread, but just continuing on from previous comments.

      I heard the same and laughed.

      By their criteria Midleton will be a city soon.

    • #780327
      ivuernis
      Participant
    • #780328
      PTB
      Participant

      Yeah, Wikipedia also calls Sligo a city in parts

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sligo

      It has more of a claim to being a city than Kilkenny, which is quite small. I actually remember an interview with some member of the Sligo Chamber of commerce saying in some newspaper thet while they weren’t actually a city they had the mentality of one. It seems that they have taken on much more than a city mentality.

    • #780329
      opus
      Participant

      @corkdood wrote:

      From what I’ve read the apartment prices at the Elysian won’t be any cheaper than that Angry Rebel.
      i truly believe that by the end of the year/early 2008 buy to let investors will be trying to offload their investments on the market left right and centre. So yes in my view there could be thousands of apartments on the market.by the time Eglinton street goes for sale.

      I checked with the estate agents and seems the pricing won’t be available ’til next Spring.

      Noticed on irishpropertywatch.com that prices in a new development in Glounthaune had been cut from €925k to €760k for new 4-bed hourses so think it will be a very different market by then especially with a few more interest hikes to come.

    • #780330
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      ARGHHH! The more this rises the more my heart sinks. If only the tower element was shifted to the eastern corner

    • #780331
      who_me
      Participant

      As I understand it, there is still one more “floor” (or, at least a mezzanine level) to go above the 17th.

      Still, if you’re standing on the footpath across the road from the front of City Hall you can just barely see the very top of the tower.

      What I think is a pity is that the 7-8 storey block is likely to obscure most of the tower from many directions, so it’s likely to look a lot more stumpy.

    • #780332
      who_me
      Participant

      Actually, it’s well worth checking out the revamped site, the presentation video has a good CGI animation of the building which gives an idea of the scale, shape and materials of the new building.

    • #780333
      THE_Chris
      Participant

      One thing that I noticed was that going over the Kinsale Road Roundabout flyover, the current height plus one floor would be the exact height of the hills behind. Methinks that came into the height decision. It does not take from the hills behind and is a perfect height given the view.

    • #780334
      PTB
      Participant

      @d_d_dallas wrote:

      ARGHHH! The more this rises the more my heart sinks. If only the tower element was shifted to the eastern corner

      Yes, but then there wouldn’t be the great view of the tower coming down the south link.

    • #780335
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      @PTB wrote:

      Yes, but then there wouldn’t be the great view of the tower coming down the south link.

      This “gateway” crap is pointless. Who cares if some motorist get’s a bit of a thrill when it’s at the cost of an established view in the city core.

    • #780336
      who_me
      Participant

      Looking at the CGI animation – doesn’t the river side (North) elevation look a bit drab and grey?

    • #780337
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      @d_d_dallas wrote:

      This “gateway” crap is pointless. Who cares if some motorist get’s a bit of a thrill when it’s at the cost of an established view in the city core.

      The view is obviously established but City Core it is not.

      Mostly housing off Wellington Road etc.

      Its a great “start” to the city and the future docklands etc.

      Cork people seem to think that they are all entitled to a view of St.Finbarrs,St.Lukes,Shandon etc forever for some reason ?

    • #780338
      who_me
      Participant

      @Spinal Tap wrote:

      Cork people seem to think that they are all entitled to a view of St.Finbarrs,St.Lukes,Shandon etc forever for some reason ?

      Ah come on now, that argument’s starting to get a little tired.

      There are better places to site tall buildings and worse, and FWIW I think blocking one of the best views of the North ridge (for everyone along that route, I don’t live there) would have been a poor choice. As it happens, you can’t really see the tower on the Link until you come around the last slight bend, so it doesn’t have much impact and works quite well.

    • #780339
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      @who_me wrote:

      Ah come on now, that argument’s starting to get a little tired.

      There are better places to site tall buildings and worse, and FWIW I think blocking one of the best views of the North ridge (for everyone along that route, I don’t live there) would have been a poor choice. As it happens, you can’t really see the tower on the Link until you come around the last slight bend, so it doesn’t have much impact and works quite well.

      Eglinton Street Tower is in a perfect location – Cork needs to start embracing taller buildings and private developers need to start building quality archchitecture.

    • #780340
      kite
      Participant

      @Spinal Tap wrote:

      Eglinton Street Tower is in a perfect location – Cork needs to start embracing taller buildings and private developers need to start building quality archchitecture.

      I agree, the “copy and paste” form of architecture favored by a lot of design firms, encouraged by some construction firms and most of Corks planners should take its rightful place, in the rubbish bin.
      😎 O’Flynn Construction, to their credit, commission quality designers that produce a quality end product.

    • #780341
      who_me
      Participant

      @Spinal Tap wrote:

      Eglinton Street Tower is in a perfect location – Cork needs to start embracing taller buildings and private developers need to start building quality archchitecture.

      That’s what I said – it works quite well! Sheesh, you’re so busy walking around admiring the thing when you should be looking at your PC screen! :p

      I’d love to see taller buildings in Cork, and by taller I mean a lot taller than The Elysian! In fact I was disappointed when I read there were likely to be 4 very tall buildings in the Docklands, and peaking at 22 floors. I’d far prefer to have several tall, slender, attractive (hopefully, innovative) towers in certain areas – notably the South Docklands and Blackpool – than a monolithic 6-8 storey block which completely dominates the view.

    • #780342
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      City core… as in South Mall

    • #780343
      carrigdhoun
      Participant

      Can someone clarify for me the actual number of floors in the tower. My understanding is that the origional planning approved was for 17 stories + 2 basement levels, then the developers sought and got permission to include an 18th floor within the overall buildings height (I think the spike on top will be shorter), but this two story Penthouse that is going on top of the lift shaft, is this an additional 2 floors? Will the building be in fact 20 floors + 2 basement?

    • #780344
      who_me
      Participant

      I think the 17th floor is the entrance to the penthouse, with a second (possibly mezzanine) floor above. So it’ll be 17 or 18 (depending on your point of view) + 2 basement. I think.

    • #780345
      rebel_city
      Participant

      I was home in Cork for the first time in a couple of months. Arrived on the bus from the Dunkettle side – as we came into the city the new tower looked really impressive. It was getting dark but the lights around it looked well. I reckon it will look great when finished.

    • #780346
      who_me
      Participant

      Is it my imagination, or has the North elevation changed significantly (and for the worse) from:

      to:

      (Apologies for the picture quality, couldn’t do any better). Is it a poor quality render in the second image, or has the design changed?

    • #780347
      malec
      Participant

      As far as I can see it now has 20 stories

    • #780348
      Hafez
      Participant

      Sure you’re not counting the scaffolding rather than the actual floors? :p

    • #780349
      who_me
      Participant

      @Hafez wrote:

      Sure you’re not counting the scaffolding rather than the actual floors? :p

      That miiight just explain why the lower floors are quite a bit shorter in that photo than the higher floors! :p

      I’d be fairly sure it’s still 18 – especially given the photo on the website with them all holding a big “18” sign on the roof of the building. 17 elevator doors, with a duplex penthouse, 18.

    • #780350
      malec
      Participant

      OK if it’s not 20 it’s 19 and definitely not 18. Every time I passed it I saw it being ground floor + 17 and now it has a penthouse too. I’ll check again next time I’m near it.

    • #780351
      THE_Chris
      Participant

      The final building exterior has appeared on some of the lower floors.

    • #780352
      malec
      Participant

      ^^ And from what I could make out looked fugly

    • #780353
      Angry Rebel
      Participant

      Yeah, it looks like right cheap grey cladding. Nasty.

    • #780354
      tfarmer
      Participant
    • #780355
      tfarmer
      Participant

      nice..

    • #780356
      THE_Chris
      Participant
    • #780357
      malec
      Participant

      ^^ Which won’t get built I’m sure.

      Anyway, I have some new photos, will upload them later.

    • #780358
      THE_Chris
      Participant

      Seems to me that Dubai is using its economic boom well. Obviously we wouldnt need anything that tall, but it still makes me think Ireland has blown it a bit.

    • #780359
      bosco
      Participant
    • #780360
      who_me
      Participant

      Funny, I’m surprised it took so long to be defaced!

      I was expecting the response: “Had she discovered Ireland’s biggest secret”

      “The price!” :p

    • #780361
      tfarmer
      Participant

      Just why exactly would building a small tower block be considered a secret? lol, what a stupid marketing campaign and whats even funnier is if you go to the website you see a bunch of people with surprised looks on their faces like they were witnessing 9/11 all over again or something.

      ‘Tis like a huge tower tom, bayjasus ive never seen the likes of it befarrrr, tis getting like manhattan’

    • #780362
      PTB
      Participant

      Irelands worst kept secret
      [ATTACH]5321[/ATTACH]

      [ATTACH]5325[/ATTACH]

    • #780363
      THE_Chris
      Participant

      The lack of high rise saved us when they attacked.

      Now we’re screwed.

    • #780364
      PTB
      Participant

      God bless silly season.

    • #780365
      murfee
      Participant

      Best hoarding I’ve seen in Cork is at Jacobs island. They’ve actually cut into the graphics which gives it look very dramatic against the skyline

    • #780366
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      @murfee wrote:

      Best hoarding I’ve seen in Cork is at Jacobs island. They’ve actually cut into the graphics which gives it look very dramatic against the skyline

      One of the few developments where the hoarding is better than the actual development:) – you could’nt swing a cat in those apartments.

    • #780367
      kite
      Participant

      Cork City Fire Service are dealing with a fire on site this morning.
      Eglinton Street is closed off, no further details at the moment.

    • #780368
      THE_Chris
      Participant

      Small gas explosion. One person in hospital I think.

      (I read the paper in the shop 😀 )

    • #780369
      PTB
      Participant

      (I read the paper in the shop 😀 )

      Me too! Virtual high five!

      I used to use acetlyene barrels in school. I was always worries that one would explode, somewhat irrationally I suppose, but now my fears have been vindicated. I didn’t help that my engineering teacher hadn’t the slightest concern for safety.

    • #780370
      malec
      Participant

      From far away:

      From up close

    • #780371
      malec
      Participant

      Lowrise building

      The “skyscrapers are gay” sign, now covered up 🙂

    • #780372
      Pepsi
      Participant

      eglinton looks fantastic i must say.

    • #780373
      Pepsi
      Participant

      @malec wrote:

      Lowrise building

      The “skyscrapers are gay” sign, now covered up 🙂

      that looks high for a lowrise.:)

    • #780374
      malec
      Participant

      @Pepsi wrote:

      eglinton looks fantastic i must say.

      I think it’ll look very good but on 2 sides only, on the north and east facing sides they have this horrible grey cladding. Don’t know why they couldn’t use the same materials as on the other sides.

    • #780375
      malec
      Participant

      Another one

    • #780376
      Pepsi
      Participant

      this hasn’t been discussed in a while. how is it coming along these days? does anyone have some updated images?

    • #780377
      THE_Chris
      Participant

      Looks more or less the same with more exterior paneling appearing 🙂

    • #780378
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      @THE_Chris wrote:

      Looks more or less the same with more exterior paneling appearing 🙂

      The panelling is only beautiful ! 😮

    • #780379
      ake
      Participant

      pictures please

    • #780380
      opus
      Participant

      From today’s Sunday Business post, full story is here. Flynns must be ruing the day they didn’t try to sell the apartments off the plans when they announced it given the prediction is for a further 10% fall in values next year.

      Court battle over country’s tallest building in Cork city
      16 December 2007 By Ian Kehoe and Neil Callanan

      Two of the biggest property development companies in the country are embroiled in a multimillion euro High Court battle over the planned tallest building in Ireland.

      Cork-based O’Flynn Construction is suing Howard Holdings in a dispute over access to Elysian, a 17-storey tower block being built in Cork’s docklands.

      O’Flynn Construction is the developer behind the €150 million tower, which – at 71metres high – will be Ireland’s highest building. The Cork company claims that it agreed with Howard Holdings to buy an adjacent site, which is crucial for access to Elysian. However, a dispute has broken out over the sale.

      O’Flynn Construction, headed by Michael O’ Flynn, now wants the High Court to force Howard Holdings to sell the site. The matter is due to return to court in January. Greg Coughlin, the chief executive of Howard Holdings, has filed an affidavit.

    • #780381
      kite
      Participant

      @opus wrote:

      From today’s Sunday Business post, full story is here. Flynns must be ruing the day they didn’t try to sell the apartments off the plans when they announced it given the prediction is for a further 10% fall in values next year.

      Wow, that looks like a nasty dispute. Any idea where the disputed land is situated?

    • #780382
      jdivision
      Participant

      I presume it’s either access via the Webworks building or else via the stone warehouses on Lavitts Quay that were on the market a while back

    • #780383
      kite
      Participant

      @jdivision wrote:

      I presume it’s either access via the Webworks building or else via the stone warehouses on Lavitts Quay that were on the market a while back

      If access was proposed through the Webworks site, Cork City Council should have ensured all was in order before selling (“giving away”) the site to Howard Holdings for the sum of 2,225,000 euro on a 700 year lease @ 10 euro PA rent.

    • #780384
      lawyer
      Participant

      @kite wrote:

      If access was proposed through the Webworks site, Cork City Council should have ensured all was in order before selling (“giving away”) the site to Howard Holdings for the sum of 2,225,000 euro on a 700 year lease @ 10 euro PA rent.

      I think these are the buildings on Albert Quay/Albert Street.
      Suttons had a coal store there.There also was a fast fit exhaust business there up to a few years ago.

    • #780385
      kite
      Participant

      @lawyer wrote:

      I think these are the buildings on Albert Quay/Albert Street.
      Suttons had a coal store there.There also was a fast fit exhaust business there up to a few years ago.

      :)Thanks for clearing that issue.

    • #780386
      opus
      Participant

      Took a picture of the tower part today, hard to know close to completion it is. The other parts of the block are still only being built.

      The website hasn’t been updated since last Nov as far as I can see & even then it was just some spin about interior designers.

    • #780387
      cubix
      Participant

      lookin good,spire should go up soon.

    • #780388
      malec
      Participant

      @cubix wrote:

      lookin good,.

      on this side but view it from the other side and 😮

    • #780389
      malec
      Participant

      Sorry but I’m really starting to not like this tower. I thought this was supposed to be a landmark building, however is a massive eyesore as seen in the picture below. From this side it looks particularly bad:

      I really expected a lot more from this, and now they’ve stuck that white cheap-looking this on top. Wasn’t that supposed to be a penthouse?
      The county hall with the new cladding looks much better IMO, especially at night. The problem with this one is not the shape but the cheap materials.

      Sorry for the rant.

    • #780390
      cubix
      Participant

      So looks like the first and last high rise to be built in cork,whats the general consensus down there?personally I think its ok,,maybe a bit stumpy.The pic above makes it look very gaunt,hopefully when its completely finished with the spire and all it will be a improvement.

    • #780391
      kite
      Participant

      What was the outcome of the High-Court case last month between OFC and Howard Holdings regarding the access issues to the tower?

    • #780392
      jungle
      Participant

      @cubix wrote:

      So looks like the first and last high rise to be built in cork,whats the general consensus down there?personally I think its ok,,maybe a bit stumpy.The pic above makes it look very gaunt,hopefully when its completely finished with the spire and all it will be a improvement.

      I tend to agree with the stumpy comment. It could either do with being 5 storeys lower so that it isn’t so out of scale to surrounding buildings or it could be 5 storeys higher so that it would appear more slender. As is, it looks like a compromise height that neither suits the buildings or the surroundings.

    • #780393
      opus
      Participant

      Got sent a survey by the estate agents today about the development, guess the falling property prices are starting to worry them so they are trying to gauge market interest. These were the price ranges they were suggesting although I’m not sure why anyone would pick anything but the lowest one! Perhaps they hope there are some stupid people out there 🙂

      Full survey is http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=H3_2bv4oln7aBoIo8GtgyJhA_3d_3d%5Dhere if anyone is interested.

    • #780394
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      @cubix wrote:

      So looks like the first and last high rise to be built in cork,whats the general consensus down there?personally I think its ok,,maybe a bit stumpy.The pic above makes it look very gaunt,hopefully when its completely finished with the spire and all it will be a improvement.

      Well you also have the 17 storey Co.Hall.

      OCP re planning 32 stories down at Mahon Point.

      There is another proposal at Blackpool for 35 stories AFAIK.

      There are a few more high rise planned for the docklands + 2 more at least on the North side of the river on the drawing board !

      IMO the cladding on the Elysian is a missed opportunity – awful.

    • #780395
      who_me
      Participant

      The appearance does seem to have changes slightly from the original mock-ups – and for the worst. The gray cladding is pretty horrible; the tower looks good from the South and West, horrible to the North and (especially) East.

      I think the expectation was for 4 towers of around 20 stories in the South Docklands, plus myriad others of slightly lesser heights, in which case it’s probably around the right height. Of course, if the Docklands development does stall (er… never start?) then the Elysian will continue to stick out a bit.

    • #780396
      kite
      Participant

      @who_me wrote:

      The appearance does seem to have changes slightly from the original mock-ups – and for the worst. The gray cladding is pretty horrible; the tower looks good from the South and West, horrible to the North and (especially) East.

      I think the expectation was for 4 towers of around 20 stories in the South Docklands, plus myriad others of slightly lesser heights, in which case it’s probably around the right height. Of course, if the Docklands development does stall (er… never start?) then the Elysian will continue to stick out a bit.

      :rolleyes:The way our “lets play at being Councillors” local reps have messed up the only towers in the Docklands next year will be attached to Dolly Parton.

    • #780397
      Leesider
      Participant

      what is that manky white thing on top of the tower now? Didn’t notice that on the original renders.

    • #780398
      BTH
      Participant

      Wow, how many different facade treatments can you fit on a single tower? A LOT by the looks of it… They have ruined what could have been a reasonably elegant building. Same thing happened to the “stump” in Athlone – a couple of different glazing systems and acres of cheap white cladding… It’s a total eyesore. Then they put a “spire” on top that is basically a stump on top of a stump! Really, the only way these medium to high rise buildings work is by keeping them really simple and elemental in terms of shape and proportions – Just like county hall in Cork. Of course it’s beauty is in the details when you get up close but from a distance its just a really elegant prism.

    • #780399
      -Donnacha-
      Participant

      God, this is hideous. Simultaneously too tall for its surroundings and not tall enough for its girth; drab and bland from a distance, yet horribly cluttered-looking up close. Now I know why those people in the posters were holding their hands to their mouths…

    • #780400
      kite
      Participant

      @lexington wrote:

      😀 One of the most exciting developments put before Cork city in many years is to be greenlit come Thursday 7th July 2005. Though the notion has been somewhat of an open secret these past few weeks, a source with Cork City Council has declared that the proposal by O’Flynn Construction will be granted subject to approx. 20 conditions [?] after Senior Planner Ronnie McDowell signs his name this Thursday. Details of these conditions will be made clear here either tomorrow evening or Thursday evening latest.

      The project was originally lodged for the 3 acre, former An Post Sorting Office site, last October 8th 2004. Further Information was requested on the development on November 1st 2004, following a questionable planning authority handling of the application. The first request was responded to on December 23rd 2005 and a due date was set for Feburary 23rd 2005 – however, trouble was encountered with the application in the hands of planner Evelyn Mitchell when it seemed as though CCC were only willing to grant permission for the project subject to a near 50% reduction of the 550 basement parking spaces proposed. Other issues that proved a sticking point included light reflection of the tower and the height surrounding block parapets. Additional Further Information was requested and Senior Planner Ronnie McDowell took over handling of the application.

      Where the original Wilson Architecture designed project comprised of 217 apartments over blocks ranging in height from 6 to 8 storeys, w/ a 17-storey landmark tower (70m) in the southwest corner of the site (facing the South City Link Road), 550 basement parking spaces over 2 decks, 7 own-door office units and 5 large bulk-goods retail units – the revised application submitted in response to the Additional Further Information, received on the 13th of May 2005 – altered the plans so that block heights of the parameter buildings reduced to 6-storeys with a set-back level, rearranged building layouts (providing a new ‘pod’ building in Northern end of the site) and new glazing features for the landmark tower (which otherwise remained untouched). CCC concluded that for such residential developments as Eglinton Street, parking spaces as proposed would be generally acceptable given that apartment sizes were generally designed to accommodate long-term residencies (some 3-bedroom apartments extending to 1,900sq ft) and that reductions in space provision would clutter surrounding, heavily trafficked streets with unwelcome additions using the retail, office and residential facilities of the development. The revised application in fact, actually allowed for an increase in apartment unit numbers from 217 to 226.

      Only 1 objection was lodged in response to revised plans – that of a nearby resident Cait Ui Connail, who cites that the development will affect her light and bring unwelcome traffic from persons utilising the retail facilities. The developers have noted in response that among the reasons for such a large basement parking provision was to address such traffic concerns and that the tower overshadowing had been well studied and assessed, concluding that it did not affect nearby residency light given its design, shape and location in the site.

      Should this prove to be the final planning step for OFC with regards Eglinton Street. Construction is scheduled to start in early 2006.



      Note: Apologises for the colouration in the bottom 3 images – but its consequent of light penetration during the image scans.

      [Fingers crossed the conditions aren’t a repeat of that other highrise project that was conditioned to oblivion.]

      :oI think the time may be apt to remind ourselves how we were all looking forward to what was to be the first true “high-rise” development in Cork in 30 years!! (Lex circa 2005)
      Where and when did it all go wrong??

    • #780401
      Leesider
      Participant

      Needs to be another 10 stories higher, the white thing on top is terrible in reality and in the renders you never see the angle from the photo above. Will reserve full judgement until fully completed but not looking good!

    • #780402
      malec
      Participant

      It went wrong when they decided to build it on the cheap. The cladding is crap that’s why.

    • #780403
      Spinal Tap
      Participant

      @malec wrote:

      It went wrong when they decided to build it on the cheap. The cladding is crap that’s why.

      See OFC’s No.5 Lapps Quay for rubbish cladding systems and bizarre colours.

      Anything to save money and an opportunity lost.

    • #780404
      -Donnacha-
      Participant

      The bulk of the surrounding buildings also means the tower barely manages to poke its head out in many of the images shown

    • #780405
      Citybythelee
      Participant

      I’d like to concur with some of the other posters. It is starting to look hideous. I was expecting the windows to be like a sheet without window frames (I know I’m not putting it correctly) but instead it looks like the framed windows on the County Hall. Not good. And as for the cladding – yuck !

    • #780406
      opus
      Participant

      I was looking at the website for the Elysian this evening & it’s got some kind of count down timer running on there. Not sure what it means though as it currently says “1 month 37 days 14 hours!”

    • #780407
      cubix
      Participant

      Can only presume its for when the development is fully complete,tower looks relatively good in that video presentation,goes to show how different these graphics can be,has anyone got up to date construction pics…

    • #780408
      Cathal Dunne
      Participant

      @opus wrote:

      I was looking at the website for the Elysian this evening & it’s got some kind of count down timer running on there. Not sure what it means though as it currently says “1 month 37 days 14 hours!”

      :confused: Is there an extra-long month ahead that we haven’t been informed about?

      I better edit my calendar. A few Post-Its should be enough.

    • #780409
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      ok, so the tower is basically complete. impact on city hall is too great.

    • #780410
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      materials wise – is this what happens when planners and designers try to attain consensus?

    • #780411
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      the winter gardens do look sweet though 😉

    • #780412
      Cathal Dunne
      Participant

      @d_d_dallas wrote:

      materials wise – is this what happens when planners and designers try to attain consensus?

      Perhaps they went to TileStyle, couldn’t decide which cladding to buy and decided to get all of them and put them up on the tower.

      It’s quite the patch-work.

    • #780413
      Leesider
      Participant

      On one side it looks like one of those rock climbing walls. The glass side doesn’t look too bad, but it looks fairly crap from the northside.

      And that white thing on top looks like a portacabin. Pity it had potential and looked a lot better in the renders.

    • #780414
      -Donnacha-
      Participant
      Cathal Dunne wrote:
      :confused: Is there an extra-long month ahead that we haven’t been informed about?

      Maybe there are fewer hours in a Cork day. That would balance thungs out…

    • #780415
      Cathal Dunne
      Participant

      @AndrewP wrote:

      @Cathal Dunne wrote:

      :confused: Is there an extra-long month ahead that we haven’t been informed about?

      Maybe there are fewer hours in a Cork day. That would balance thungs out…

      It might, that’d make sense. It’s now 25 days and 18 hours before these babes go to market. What to Archiseekers think will be the response/?They’ve probably already cut the prices they were going to sell them at. Are they going to sell them all in one go? It’ll be an interesting test of the strength of the property market. Perhaps they’ll sell out on their launch weekend and herald the return of the boom!

    • #780416
      jdivision
      Participant

      @Cathal Dunne wrote:

      @AndrewP wrote:

      It might, that’d make sense. It’s now 25 days and 18 hours before these babes go to market. What to Archiseekers think will be the response/?They’ve probably already cut the prices they were going to sell them at. Are they going to sell them all in one go? It’ll be an interesting test of the strength of the property market. Perhaps they’ll sell out on their launch weekend and herald the return of the boom!

      In Dublin there’s at least on case of a developer “buying” some of the apartments his company developed. Same might happen there

    • #780417
      kite
      Participant

      @Cathal Dunne wrote:

      @AndrewP wrote:

      It might, that’d make sense. It’s now 25 days and 18 hours before these babes go to market. What to Archiseekers think will be the response/?They’ve probably already cut the prices they were going to sell them at. Are they going to sell them all in one go? It’ll be an interesting test of the strength of the property market. Perhaps they’ll sell out on their launch weekend and herald the return of the boom!

      :confused:Did OFC get the access issues resolved in the High-Court with Howard Holdings?
      If not only those with helicopters need apply!

      “Court battle over country’s tallest building in Cork city

      16 December 2007
      By Ian Kehoe and Neil Callanan
      Two of the biggest property development companies in the country are embroiled in a multimillion euro High Court battle over the planned tallest building in Ireland.

      Cork-based O’Flynn Construction is suing Howard Holdings in a dispute over access to Elysian, a 17-storey tower block being built in Cork’s docklands.

      O’Flynn Construction is the developer behind the €150 million tower, which – at 71metres high – will be Ireland’s highest building. The Cork company claims that it agreed with Howard Holdings to buy an adjacent site, which is crucial for access to Elysian. However, a dispute has broken out over the sale.

      O’Flynn Construction, headed by Michael O’ Flynn, now wants the High Court to force Howard Holdings to sell the site. The matter is due to return to court in January. Greg Coughlin, the chief executive of Howard Holdings, has filed an affidavit.

      Based in Cork, Howard Holdings has projects worth €4 billion under development, including dozens of large developments in Ireland, Britain and continental Europe. It has developed a number of sites close to the Elysian project.

      The company recently said it was seeking planning permission for a €250 million mixed-use development in Cork Harbour, which would create up to 1,000 jobs. The development will include shops, homes, offices, hotels and leisure facilities on an eight-acre site at Passage dockyard.

      O’Flynn Construct ion bought the Elysian site in 2003 for more than €15 million. As well as the tower, it includes apartments, offices and shops.

      O’Flynn Construction was set up by brothers Michael and John O’Flynn in 1978 and now owns property in Ireland, Britain and Germany. Its assets include the Ballincollig shopping centre, EastGate business park – both in Cork – and a stake in Blackrock Land, the property company spun off from Fyffes.”

    • #780418
      corkdood
      Participant

      The countdown clock on the Elysian web site has been reset. (it was due to launch in about ten days) As of today it says 39 days to go. Must have hit a snag or two……….

      Posted this on the developments in Cork thread too but maybe its more appropriate here.

    • #780419
      jdivision
      Participant

      kite, I believe the case centres more on the sale of the building between the parties. It would be an additional access point rather than the main one.

    • #780420
      kite
      Participant

      @jdivision wrote:

      kite, I believe the case centres more on the sale of the building between the parties. It would be an additional access point rather than the main one.

      Thanks jdivision, i hope you are correct, the phrase “which is crucial for access to Elysian” in the newspaper article above would suggest otherwise.

    • #780421
      opus
      Participant

      @corkdood wrote:

      The countdown clock on the Elysian web site has been reset. (it was due to launch in about ten days) As of today it says 39 days to go. Must have hit a snag or two……….

      Count down clock has disappeared now! Maybe the news about the 5% fall in prices in Cork in the first three months of the year from the daft.ie report frightened them a bit 🙂

    • #780422
      corkdood
      Participant

      Agreed and remember that 5 per cent represents just the fall in asking prices. Closing prices are much lower again which explains the paralysis in the residential market for the last 18 months. Sellers can’t accept that they will have to reduce their expectations to cut a deal.

      If the Elysian launches and they can’t shift many units there will be large amounts of egg on faces and the bank managers will be breathing down their necks. Interesting times ahead!

      Maybe the city council will step in and buy the whole building for social/affordable housing

    • #780423
      Leesider
      Participant

      Must admit from the southside this tower is actually growing on me but from my vantage point on the northside it is disappointmenting, how come the northside always gets the raw deal! 🙂

    • #780424
      opus
      Participant

      That court case between OFC & Howard Holdings has started according to the Indo, story is here.

    • #780425
      jungle
      Participant

      The case was settled out of court on Friday.

      No details of the settlement I’m afraid.

    • #780426
      SoundsDreamy
      Participant

      the county hall has never looked so good when compared to this.
      Wilson Architects design another modern day gun tower to mirror the eye sore of a carpark in clon.

    • #780427
      SoundsDreamy
      Participant

      I hear armitage shanks are taking out advertising space on the white bowl atop the elysian.
      A very Stylish affair!

    • #780428
      who_me
      Participant

      I think the white cylinder is actually being either painted or clad at the moment, I don’t think it’s remaining white. Thank God.

      It’s funny, but probably the worst part of the building are its two most prominent features, the tower and the ‘mini tower’ at the North East corner.

      The rest of the building isn’t bad, at least it’s better than I expected. I know people here hate balconies, but on the East and West sides they add a bit of contour and shadow to what would otherwise be very bland elevations. Plus, the South side is much better than I expected. There’s a very tall ground floor (retail?) with a large terraced area on top, behind that are a few balconies with what looks to be wood. Not bad at all!

    • #780429
      jungle
      Participant

      It’s looking better than I thought it would during construction and while not a stunning building is not terrible either. It certainly doesn’t deserve to be compared to the car park in Clon, which between it’s form, inappropriateness for the town and prominent location when you arrive there deserves to be in any worst 10 in Ireland list!

    • #780430
      opus
      Participant

      Interesting thread about the Elysian here….

    • #780431
      corkdood
      Participant

      Interesting comments on the Elysian on that forum. Its going to be a tall order to sell. Can’t see it working as a hotel either.

    • #780432
      who_me
      Participant

      Burj Dubai v Cork Towers

      :p

      Errr… ok. Call it a draw?

    • #780433
      opus
      Participant

      I got a very glossy letter from Sherry Fitz today saying that the official launch would be on the 17th of September. Think like lots of people I’ll go along for a look but can’t really imagine buying something there. Whatever about the cost of the flats, I’d guess the annual fees will be scary with that big garden to maintain.

    • #780434
      who_me
      Participant

      I received the same letter opus, might go along as well.

      Could end up being an archiseek meet-up! 🙂

      By the way, did a ‘walk by” the Elysian the other day – I like the wine-coloured tiles on the Northern section of the building. Nice break from the awful gray tower and all the white/cream of the lower building.

    • #780435
      rebel_city
      Participant

      I checked my post last night and I got a fancy looking letter also. The letter was indeed a stylish affair! 😀 I’m looking forward to getting the invite next, will have to make a trip down to Cork to check it out. The gardens so sound impressive, wonder what the price range the apts will be going for though!

    • #780436
      Leesider
      Participant

      That spire they have put on top looks crap…..just like a big flag pole!!

    • #780437
      goldiefish
      Participant

      Philistine…

    • #780438
      Leesider
      Participant

      @goldiefish wrote:

      Philistine…

      you like??:eek:

    • #780439
      PTB
      Participant

      Is that honestly the spire? This is the biggest disappointment since discovering Santa wasn’t real.

    • #780440
      green_jesus
      Participant

      That can’t be it can it? That toothpick spire looks nothing like the original designs…

      Maybe it’s just the first piece of it or the support for the real one. (Hopefully):confused:

    • #780441
      who_me
      Participant

      @green_jesus wrote:

      That can’t be it can it? That toothpick spire looks nothing like the original designs…

      Maybe it’s just the first piece of it or the support for the real one. (Hopefully):confused:

      Doubt it, looks like the final thing. It is tiny – in comparison with the 17m barge pole being put up on the top of the Ascon development (Government buildings on O’Sullivan’s Quay).

    • #780442
      opus
      Participant

      The prices were announced in Saturday’s Examiner according to the Property Pin website, range is from €375k for a one-bed to €2m for a large penthouse.

      Examiner story is here.

    • #780443
      johnglas
      Participant

      Hi guys! Just back from my (first-ever) visit to your fair city. Still trying to absorb it all, but I did like the new tower and the developments round about. I think they lost their nerve on thr fin(i)al flourish, but it is elegant and I’m not a particular fan of high-rise for its own sake.
      My general impression was of a fascinating small city that has been allowed to crumble for far too long. I think you need to sack everyone in the ‘planning’ department (if there is one) and get people in place who care deeply about the city and how it looks. A 10-year plan would allow this place to flourish as it deserves to. And, whisper it, I think it is more architecturally varied and interesting than Dublin and it just oozes character.

    • #780444
      Leesider
      Participant

      Just saw the lights were turned on……never knew we were living in Gotham! :p

    • #780445
      who_me
      Participant

      Ha! I know what you mean Leesider, thought it was cooool. (I know the lighting was probably a bit kitsch, but I still like it).

      The roof colour changes over time, and the spire lighting is animated. Guess it was a “dry” run for the official launch?

    • #780446
      Hafez
      Participant

      Might be a good oppurtunity to put a starbucks in there seeing as there are no others in the city.

    • #780447
      GregF
      Participant

      I saw this on the news tonight and I thought that it didn’t really look that attractive. Kinda looks similar to the ‘tower’ that they are going to build at the Point in Dublin.

      Both look like rudimentary towers really, nothing great. A first for Ireland, but old hat for the rest of the world!

    • #780448
      shanekeane
      Participant

      @Hafez wrote:

      Might be a good oppurtunity to put a starbucks in there seeing as there are no others in the city.

      that about sums up the attitude to architecture on this forum

    • #780449
      demolition man
      Participant

      Why do people have to put the Elysian down all the time?To me,while there may be some flaws such as the white cylindrical tower piece and the dank panelling on the west side, is still a welcome addition to the city’s skyline.

      Considering the bland tripe being built in the dublin docklands and being proposed in kennedy quay we should be appreciating this development and be encouraging new developments to show similar uniqueness. I don’t know how some people get off on critiscising the Elysian when there is nothing else bettering it in terms of design (that is on a similar scale) in the city or even in the entire country.

    • #780450
      kite
      Participant

      @demolition man wrote:

      Why do people have to put the Elysian down all the time?To me,while there may be some flaws such as the white cylindrical tower piece and the dank panelling on the west side, is still a welcome addition to the city’s skyline.

      Considering the bland tripe being built in the dublin docklands and being proposed in kennedy quay we should be appreciating this development and be encouraging new developments to show similar uniqueness. I don’t know how some people get off on critiscising the Elysian when there is nothing else bettering it in terms of design (that is on a similar scale) in the city or even in the entire country.

      It’s the best of a bad lot eh?
      I accept the Elysian as an everyday, run of the mill buildind design. It should never have been put out there as the “best of Irish”.
      It is a nice block of apartments with shops underneath, nothing more, nothing less.

    • #780451
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I wonder will they get the footfall on those street fronts? the link is fairly offputting to pedestrians… i guess its a good measure for future cork-spansion towards the docklands, but hardly a social street…

    • #780452
      jungle
      Participant

      If the Docklands is to be integrated into the city centre, there will be a lot of work needed on making the streets in between more pedestrian friendly. Clontarf St and Eglinton St don’t need to be 3 lane, so 2 lane with better footpaths will do. Lapp’s Quay (the bit outside Connolly Hall, not outside the Clarion) needs upgrading with most of the parking removed. Albert Quay also needs a good bit of work done; possibly a lane could bre removed, but more important would be cleaning up the quayside area. I’m not sure much could be done about Albert St (which accounts for most of the retail space in the Elysian); it’s a very important traffic artery and there isn’t much spare space going around.

    • #780453
      Pug
      Participant

      i agree with you, its just that given current government fear of spending (although they still seem to be going ahead with a 3.7 billion metro in Dublin0, we will be doing well to get the docklands up and running at all – arent the government trying to get funds from the EU and be allowed break the restrictions on borrowing rule?

      No sign yet of a decision on the bridge to go from over by Pairc Ui Chaoimh to the skew bridge, was due months ago

    • #780454
      jungle
      Participant

      The Dublin Metro is actually PPP, so it doesn’t cost the DoF any money in the short term. The whole PPP scheme is a bit of a scam though, because it’s a way of borrowing without it appearing on the balance sheet. And we’re all seeing what keeping liabilities of your balance sheet can do at the moment.

    • #780455
      Angry Rebel
      Participant

      Reducing road space for traffic is a retrograde step IMHO. It’s very difficult to increase that space once you’ve done it and we have no idea how bad traffic will be once the Docklands is under construction and when it’s finished. Need all the roadspace we can get to be honest.

      That said, you’re dead right about upgrading the pedestrian links in those (and other areas). Just think a way needs to be found without creating traffic problems. e.g. On Blackrock Rd outside Tellengana House, the Council have just put in a bus shelter. Good move, obviously. However, they also doubled the size of the footpath at the same time (to no obvious benefit) which means buses can’t actually pull in anymore and will block the road every time they stop.

    • #780456
      jungle
      Participant

      You can’t improve the pedestrian links without taking up some space from the road. Lapp’s Quay should be fairly uncontroversial as nobody uses it as a through road anyway.

      If you look at Clontarf St, nobody uses the right hand lane. It would end up with you doing circuits of Parnell Place and Lower Oliver Plunkett St – great for kerb crawlers, but not that useful for the vast majority of citizens. Having two lanes on Clontarf St, one for turning left at the end and one for turning right would suffice. You’ve also got to take into account that there are only two lanes leading into it from Clontarf Bridge (the rightmost lane is for Merchant’s Quay traffic only), so it will never require the volume provided by three lanes. Finally, if you think where traffic is coming from and going to,

      Eglinton St may be a different issue with the City Hall car park and the entrance to the Elysian car park in addition to standard traffic flows. But, it’s not as critical as the others anyway.

      To be honest, we need to get away from the amount of parking space and road space given over to cars in Cork city centre. After the building of the South Ring, it should have become more about a space for people to live, work and socialise in and less about getting cars through. The only cars that need to drive through the city centre are ones that have it as their destination or that are travelling from the Northside to the Southside of the city and vice versa.

    • #780457
      Pug
      Participant

      i was just in the elysian for a look, the 1 beds are a bit cramped but the others are fabulous – prob still a little pricey but the show apartments are seriously good especially the dual aspect for 545k and ones in the tower for 1.35m – if you have that kind of money why not

    • #780458
      browser
      Participant

      @Pug wrote:

      i was just in the elysian for a look, the 1 beds are a bit cramped but the others are fabulous – prob still a little pricey but the show apartments are seriously good especially the dual aspect for 545k and ones in the tower for 1.35m – if you have that kind of money why not

      Which of the two are you shelling out for Pugmeister me old china? Or are you buying one of each.

    • #780459
      Pug
      Participant

      obviously i bought one of each – it was when i heard that there was good storage space in the basement as well if you wanted it for your apartment, but the storage would also cost 10,000, i was a bit miffed

      they are finished really really well, surround sound speakers wired in the ceiling, mood lighting and all that stuff

      The kitchen designed by Porsche is unbelievable, in both looks and cost (€149k – for a kitchen!)

      the 545k ones are really fab to be fair

    • #780460
      alonso
      Participant

      all over tv3’s The Apprentice now

    • #780461
      sovereign12
      Participant

      :eek:noticed the building along with county hall was lit up all over the jazz weekend. As a friend who was visiting cork for the first time pointed out it looks like a brothel lit up. What a monstosity we have created glass all one side and plastic the other 3. Shame on you Michael O flynn you had the oppertunity to build something wonderful and you built a joke. And before you criticise my opinion I recently had the pleasure of visiting a real city, Miami, and what wonderful buildings they have. Pity our developers are so incompetant and anal. In the words of a great man ‘I pity the fool’ who is dumb enough to waste money on moving into an over priced sticklebrick compound that will no doubt be ripped down in 20 years when we all come to our senses. And before people have a go I was very excited about this project considering I love high rises and as far as I’m concerned the more highrises the better but for goodness sake at least build them right and make them look good. The atlantic quarter has alot of potential but should we be so lucky that it gets built????? Not in our lifetime I expect. All I’ll say is Mr. O Flynn you f**ked up.

    • #780462
      Angry Rebel
      Participant

      You’re entitled to your opinion, but if you’re going to be so vitriolic it least get your most basic of facts right. Owen O’Callaghan has nothing to do with the Elysian, it was Michael O’Flynn.

      Atlantic Quarter is scheduled to break ground next year. Sorry to hear your life expectancy is so short.

    • #780463
      Bourgeoise
      Participant

      @Angry Rebel wrote:

      You’re entitled to your opinion, but if you’re going to be so vitriolic it least get your most basic of facts right. Owen O’Callaghan has nothing to do with the Elysian, it was Michael O’Flynn.

      Atlantic Quarter is scheduled to break ground next year. Sorry to hear your life expectancy is so short.

      Hear here !

      If you are going to have a rant at least get some fact correct.

      Jeez the quality of posters in here has gone down like the stock market.

    • #780464
      Pug
      Participant

      yeah, come on, get your facts right. I think the Elysian is great for Cork, its a massive punt taken by Michael O’ Flynn, sets a whole new market. The insides are absolutely stunning, even if I will never afford it (and if I had that money, I would have the villa in Italy or France first I think). Silly prices but a great idea, certainly beats having a giant sorting office there.

      As for Docklands, all it would have taken was €60m for that bridge and a kick up the rear to CIE to get the Masterplan for Horgans Quay. Imagine, if someone had managed Cork Airports building properly, there would have been €60m for that bridge. What a waste.

    • #780465
      jungle
      Participant

      Did anyone else go in for the open day on Monday?

      I have to admit I was surprised by how small the penthouse apartments were. I guess for the price they were asking, I was expecting something a bit bigger.

    • #780466
      Mike Purdy
      Participant

      @jungle wrote:

      Did anyone else go in for the open day on Monday?

      I have to admit I was surprised by how small the penthouse apartments were. I guess for the price they were asking, I was expecting something a bit bigger.

      Would have love to have gone up there for a nosey, but was in Donegal, scaling the heights of Letterkenny, (the New York of the NW).

      Was at the Chamber of Commerce Conference last week though, where Mr O’Flynn was speaking. He was undeterred by the current market and seemed pleased with how the development turned out. Good on him!

    • #780467
      Steady
      Participant

      I think the Elysian is a good big real honest-to-god development, unlike many of the bitty Mickey Mouse yokes around the city. It is substantial and stands up on its own two feet and is a proper city development. I think that they have been unfortunate with the timing, with the arse falling out of the market right now and for the next two years probably.

      I heard that there are 20 units reserved out of approx 235 (this is just a rumour, can’t vouch for veracity).If true, quite a challenge to offload the remaining units. But I definitely back their vision and idea and execution.

    • #780468
      who_me
      Participant

      @Pug wrote:

      certainly beats having a giant sorting office there.

      :p On this point, I beg to differ.

      Now, to collect a package, anyone living in the city centre has to travel out to Togher industrial estate to collect a package. If you’re trying to be sensible by not owning a car, it means a 20 euro taxi ride out there and back to collect a package that might be worth a fraction of that.

      It’s an absolute clusterfuck of a decision, and shows the lack of joined-up thinking in this country. “Let’s make it as difficult and expensive as possible to own a car in the city, then lets spread the facilities around the outskirts of the city so they’re tough to get to”.

    • #780469
      Angry Rebel
      Participant

      That’s not quite true as there are sub offices throughout the city, for instance the Ballintemple/Ballinlough area has one next to the Silver Quay. Admitedly they are trying to shut it though…..:rolleyes:

    • #780470
      Pug
      Participant

      @who_me wrote:

      :p On this point, I beg to differ.

      Now, to collect a package, anyone living in the city centre has to travel out to Togher industrial estate to collect a package. If you’re trying to be sensible by not owning a car, it means a 20 euro taxi ride out there and back to collect a package that might be worth a fraction of that.

      are you joking? you would rather a drab green 1 storey building in a prime site in the centre of the city for the convenience of collecting packages? give me a break. The elysian isnt the most architecturally stunning building in the world but it beats having An Post there hands down. There was absolutely nothing stopping An Post taking a retail unit in the Elysian there so people could still collect their packages so you will have to give out about An Post on that one

    • #780471
      lostexpectation
      Participant

      what with the white frames, on it, i have to say i don’t think the tower looks that graceful or slick,.

    • #780472
      who_me
      Participant

      @Pug wrote:

      are you joking? you would rather a drab green 1 storey building in a prime site in the centre of the city for the convenience of collecting packages? give me a break. The elysian isnt the most architecturally stunning building in the world but it beats having An Post there hands down. There was absolutely nothing stopping An Post taking a retail unit in the Elysian there so people could still collect their packages so you will have to give out about An Post on that one

      Kind of joking.. 😉

      No, I’m not lamenting the undervalued architectural gem that was the An Post sorting office. Not even close! The loss of the sorting office, and the lack of joined-up thinking bugs the living hell out of me though.

    • #780473
      who_me
      Participant

      @Angry Rebel wrote:

      That’s not quite true as there are sub offices throughout the city, for instance the Ballintemple/Ballinlough area has one next to the Silver Quay. Admitedly they are trying to shut it though…..:rolleyes:

      Any packages not accepted at the front door can (obviously) only be collected at one location. For me, that’s in Togher industrial estate (for others in the city, it’s in Little Island!).

    • #780474
      Angry Rebel
      Participant

      @who_me wrote:

      Any packages not accepted at the front door can (obviously) only be collected at one location. For me, that’s in Togher industrial estate (for others in the city, it’s in Little Island!).

      My point was that not everyone has to go to Togher or Little Island, there are still sub offices. In any event, I agree with Pug that the sorting office would not be a better alternative, and on your point about joined up thinking, I don’t see to be honest what that thinking is/could be?! If An Post contined to occupy prime city centre land for a task that can be done anywhere within 20 miles of the city we’d be complaining about how inefficient they are…:D

    • #780475
      malec
      Participant

      If only they used the same materials on the arse of the tower.

    • #780476
      who_me
      Participant

      @Angry Rebel wrote:

      My point was that not everyone has to go to Togher or Little Island, there are still sub offices. In any event, I agree with Pug that the sorting office would not be a better alternative, and on your point about joined up thinking, I don’t see to be honest what that thinking is/could be?! If An Post contined to occupy prime city centre land for a task that can be done anywhere within 20 miles of the city we’d be complaining about how inefficient they are…:D

      It’s pretty simple, if the council want people not to use cars, they need to ensure the necessary services are available & convenient for those without cars. (In this case, either an An Post presence around the city centre – there are plenty of brownfield sites in the docklands!!) or at least on a frequent bus route.

      If they don’t, then all the plans, goals, hopes, desires, wishes are just pissing into the wind.

    • #780477
      Pug
      Participant

      @who_me wrote:

      It’s pretty simple, if the council want people not to use cars,

      Would this be the same council that reputedly sold Navigation House to Owen O’ Callaghan with the proviso that he provide a multi storey car park so the city hall workers and councillors can park for free?

    • #780478
      browser
      Participant

      @Pug wrote:

      Would this be the same council that reputedly sold Navigation House to Owen O’ Callaghan with the proviso that he provide a multi storey car park so the city hall workers and councillors can park for free?

      That is a class of joined up thinking I suppose (however lamentable)!

    • #780479
      kite
      Participant

      @Pug wrote:

      Would this be the same council that reputedly sold Navigation House to Owen O’ Callaghan with the proviso that he provide a multi storey car park so the city hall workers and councillors can park for free?

      Right on. And also the city council that sold land in Mahon at a discount to OCP because we were to get a conference centre for one Punt as part of the deal.

    • #780480
      starchaser
      Participant

      was in cork recently for the first time in years. a lot of impressive new development around. a slow uptake on apartments from the elysian development judging by the photo…

    • #780481
      tfarmer
      Participant

      thats a landmark tower??

    • #780482
      Angry Rebel
      Participant

      You should see it from the other side, it is a landmark. Landmark ugly.

    • #780483
      shanekeane
      Participant

      @Angry Rebel wrote:

      You should see it from the other side, it is a landmark. Landmark ugly.

      That’s true. Well it’s nice from one angle and then revolting from another, where you can see how it kind of fans out on the top. But, in fairness, Cork in general has a grey and ugly city centre and that’s probably one of the most interesting things there right now.

    • #780484
      phatman
      Participant

      @shanekeane wrote:

      That’s true. Well it’s nice from one angle and then revolting from another, where you can see how it kind of fans out on the top. But, in fairness, Cork in general has a grey and ugly city centre and that’s probably one of the most interesting things there right now.

      Wow. Bet you’re one of these people who’d be all for tearing down half the city centre and replacing it with shoddy apartment blocks. What about the character and history? With the exception of parts of North Main Street and the likes, Cork is anything but grey and ugly. And I wouldn’t even consider comparing the Elysian with the city centre ‘in general’…

    • #780485
      shanekeane
      Participant

      @phatman wrote:

      Wow. Bet you’re one of these people who’d be all for tearing down half the city centre and replacing it with shoddy apartment blocks. What about the character and history? With the exception of parts of North Main Street and the likes, Cork is anything but grey and ugly. And I wouldn’t even consider comparing the Elysian with the city centre ‘in general’…

      Hmm, I don’t mean to be offensive, but I do disagree. I think Cork has some nice little lanes, and I like the South Mall because it’s the only street in the city that looks like a city rather than a town. I think Patrick Street is a failed project, full of dirty and decrepit looking buildings. MacCurtain Street looks like it’s straight out of the 70s. Washington Street is just a bunch of warehouses, and the Grand Parade is another failed project full of clutter and totally lifeless in the lower half. The quays are mind-numbingly ugly from Patrick Street right down to the bus station and beyond, on both sides. And the surrounding hills, areas like Shandon etc., are full of those old plastered grey buildings which depress the hell out of me. The big problem with Cork, like most Irish towns and cities, is the lack of attention to detail. There are some nice old buildings that are dirty, or badly kept etc. The paving stones on Patrick Street and Grand Parade are ugly and depressing. They should have used the golden French limestone paving stones they’re using in Limerick.

      Cork has great potential. If they made an effort to orient the city towards the rivers, and to replace the ugly warehouse-type structures along it. I certainly don’t think, as you suggest, that historical buildings should be torn down. Cork is pretty unlucky in having very few really interesting historical buildings like Limerick or Dublin, but it should at least make an effort to properly preserve and clean the ones that it has, and pay attention to tiny details. And since outside of the very centre there’s widespread decrepitude and degradation, I don’t see a problem with knocking down tottering old buildings and constructing some tall ones like the Elysian.

    • #780486
      Pug
      Participant

      there are some appalling buildings in cork but there are some nice ones too. The widening of Pana and the Grand Parade is really nice i think and the sooner the cars are hunted out of the middle the better but theres no where for them to go at the moment. I think the bus station should be moved out of there and should be a little hub from the railway station where the buses should be based. I dont know why the Elysian balconies face the south link road instead of east/west but there you go. The golden opportunity is the docklands but lets face it, without private investment nothing will happen. Maybe planners should lean more on developers in terms of what building designs should be but its all subjective opinion. I mean, the city architects supposedly favourite buildings are the yellow brick vileness out in Victoria cross. What a wasted opportunity for a beautiful landmark area.

      Neither is there anything straightforward about the planning process when a planning official can be completely over ruled by a senior planning official and Bord pleanala can ignore their own inspectors and rule in a completely opposite manner.

      Some of the newer stuff is nice but its private individuals that own the buildings and its hard for city officials to be able to put the pressure on them in terms of design.

    • #780487
      who_me
      Participant

      I’m not really sure what’s the benefit of moving the bus station, I’d have thought it’s far better to have the bus hub close to the city centre; rather than having people walking/taking the bus to the train station only to get on another bus there.

    • #780488
      who_me
      Participant

      @shanekeane wrote:

      Hmm, I don’t mean to be offensive, but I do disagree. I think Cork has some nice little lanes, and I like the South Mall because it’s the only street in the city that looks like a city rather than a town. I think Patrick Street is a failed project, full of dirty and decrepit looking buildings. MacCurtain Street looks like it’s straight out of the 70s. Washington Street is just a bunch of warehouses, and the Grand Parade is another failed project full of clutter and totally lifeless in the lower half. The quays are mind-numbingly ugly from Patrick Street right down to the bus station and beyond, on both sides. And the surrounding hills, areas like Shandon etc., are full of those old plastered grey buildings which depress the hell out of me. The big problem with Cork, like most Irish towns and cities, is the lack of attention to detail. There are some nice old buildings that are dirty, or badly kept etc. The paving stones on Patrick Street and Grand Parade are ugly and depressing. They should have used the golden French limestone paving stones they’re using in Limerick.

      That’s a rather narrow view – it only looks good if it looks like other city streets are supposed to look?

      I believe it’s the narrow streets and low, old style buildings which give Cork its charm. Most cities of the world would give their eye-teeth to be described as “like a small town”.

      I do agree wholeheartedly about the condition of many buildings though; there are far, far too many buildings in the city centre in a very poor state of repair. Look at the library, the top several feet of it are black!

    • #780489
      who_me
      Participant

      @tfarmer wrote:

      thats a landmark tower??

      By Irish standards, yes, it is.

    • #780490
      Pug
      Participant

      @who_me wrote:

      I’m not really sure what’s the benefit of moving the bus station, I’d have thought it’s far better to have the bus hub close to the city centre; rather than having people walking/taking the bus to the train station only to get on another bus there.

      i see your point but i suppose i am referring to having the express coaches pulling out on to the roads where its currently located. Thats an excellent site that could be doing more for the city than a bus station. A fleet of little shuttle buses all around the city that would take you to places like train/bus, airport etc could be done then.

    • #780491
      shanekeane
      Participant

      xxxx

    • #780492
      venividi
      Participant

      @Pug wrote:

      i see your point but i suppose i am referring to having the express coaches pulling out on to the roads where its currently located. Thats an excellent site that could be doing more for the city than a bus station. A fleet of little shuttle buses all around the city that would take you to places like train/bus, airport etc could be done then.

      I’m sorry, but you probably drive yourself, don’t use buses? Can you give an example what could be so beneficial for the city in the bus station site?
      What you propose is creating trouble for many people for a reason which remains unknown. Plenty of people actually go to work from bus station, what you propose is to make them dependant of two unreliable buses in one direction instead of one.

      Also, “fleet of shuttle buses” sounds great, but do you know how bad the actual “fleet of buses” in Cork works?

    • #780493
      Saucy Jack
      Participant

      @shanekeane wrote:

      Hmm, I don’t mean to be offensive, but I do disagree. I think Cork has some nice little lanes, and I like the South Mall because it’s the only street in the city that looks like a city rather than a town. I think Patrick Street is a failed project, full of dirty and decrepit looking buildings. MacCurtain Street looks like it’s straight out of the 70s. Washington Street is just a bunch of warehouses, and the Grand Parade is another failed project full of clutter and totally lifeless in the lower half. The quays are mind-numbingly ugly from Patrick Street right down to the bus station and beyond, on both sides. And the surrounding hills, areas like Shandon etc., are full of those old plastered grey buildings which depress the hell out of me. The big problem with Cork, like most Irish towns and cities, is the lack of attention to detail. There are some nice old buildings that are dirty, or badly kept etc. The paving stones on Patrick Street and Grand Parade are ugly and depressing. They should have used the golden French limestone paving stones they’re using in Limerick.

      Cork has great potential. If they made an effort to orient the city towards the rivers, and to replace the ugly warehouse-type structures along it. I certainly don’t think, as you suggest, that historical buildings should be torn down. Cork is pretty unlucky in having very few really interesting historical buildings like Limerick or Dublin, but it should at least make an effort to properly preserve and clean the ones that it has, and pay attention to tiny details. And since outside of the very centre there’s widespread decrepitude and degradation, I don’t see a problem with knocking down tottering old buildings and constructing some tall ones like the Elysian.

      Cork has a fantastic island core with great narrow streets and lanes,river frontage,bridges and above all else excellent topography.

      The City has some unique architectural character that Dublin can only dream of.

      Loook at Prague,Budapest & Paris – outside their cores are plenty of grey housing and high rise.

    • #780494
      venividi
      Participant
      Saucy Jack wrote:
      Cork has a fantastic island core with great narrow streets and lanes,river frontage,bridges and above all else excellent topography.
      QUOTE]

      What you said is of course true, but: plenty of those narrow streets and lanes are in terrible condition right now, most of river frontages are a wasted chance and topography doesn’t determine whether city fabric is good or not.
      As shanekeane said above: Cork has a great potential.

    • #780495
      shanekeane
      Participant

      @Saucy Jack wrote:

      Cork has a fantastic island core with great narrow streets and lanes,river frontage,bridges and above all else excellent topography.

      The City has some unique architectural character that Dublin can only dream of.

      Loook at Prague,Budapest & Paris – outside their cores are plenty of grey housing and high rise.

      You’re like one of those men who become obsessed by an ugly woman and nobody else can understand what they see in her. To compare Cork to Prague, Budapest and Paris is more than slightly ridiculous. My point is not that there isn’t a small amount of character, but that it’s all very badly kept. And the quays in Cork are completely ugly for most of their length.

    • #780496
      shanekeane
      Participant

      Some of Cork’s magnificent riverside:

    • #780497
      Leesider
      Participant

      Maybe these ones of the river are bit better. I do agree that Cork has a lot to do to become a more attractive city but there have been major improvements and these photos of the river might show it in a bit of a better light!!

    • #780498
      opus
      Participant

      Few more photo’s showing Cork’s better side….

    • #780499
      shanekeane
      Participant

      I don’t deny that it has some nice parts too, but the problem is consistency and attention to detail. Too often in Ireland we have pretty or even beautiful buildings undermined by their proximity to rubbish.

    • #780500
      sovereign12
      Participant

      With regard to the above discussion I have to share my opinion, Cork with out a doubt has its faults as does every town and city in this country but I must admit after looking at the above links and after taking a good walk around my city it has so much character and history and life in it unlike larger cities such as Dublin and I lived in Dublin for a good period of time and to be honest in this day and age its no different to any big urban area (not city) it lacks the character it once had, it has nothing that makes it internationally recognised and I don’t mean that offencivly but the pride we have in our city (cork), despit its faults is unprecidented on this island so please lets stop knocking it and move on to the topic this forum was created for.

    • #780501
      Saucy Jack
      Participant

      @shanekeane wrote:

      You’re like one of those men who become obsessed by an ugly woman and nobody else can understand what they see in her. To compare Cork to Prague, Budapest and Paris is more than slightly ridiculous. My point is not that there isn’t a small amount of character, but that it’s all very badly kept. And the quays in Cork are completely ugly for most of their length.

      No where did I directly compare Cork with Paris,Prague & Budapest ?

      My point is that those 3 cities have 3 interesting central cores with plenty of cheap grey housing outside.

      Walk down the North Mall,The Mardyke,The Marina,Georges Quay,Sullivans Quay,Lapps Quay,Union Quay.Posting 3 poor examples is a cheap shot especially as the Beamish complex will be up for re-development very soon.

      As a Dub who is now living in Cork for 11 years I have explored every road and lane of the city centre and it has a whole lot more character than Dublin which resembles a provincial English City in parts with all o f the hasles of a big city and very few of the conveniences.Cork has Kinsale and the coast less than 30 minutes away.I can take the kids to the beach on a summer evening easily or stroll around a quaint city centre uncluttered by endless UK multiples.

      Its easy to focus on the negatives of any city but to me Cork feels continental,almost a French feel to it,an identity all of its own,facing south and not bothered but tastes of fashions temporary styles.

    • #780502
      Pug
      Participant

      @venividi wrote:

      I’m sorry, but you probably drive yourself, don’t use buses? Can you give an example what could be so beneficial for the city in the bus station site?
      What you propose is creating trouble for many people for a reason which remains unknown. Plenty of people actually go to work from bus station, what you propose is to make them dependant of two unreliable buses in one direction instead of one.

      Also, “fleet of shuttle buses” sounds great, but do you know how bad the actual “fleet of buses” in Cork works?

      First of all, relax.

      Now, to answer. Yes I do drive simply because I cant rely on the bus a) to actually turn up and b) turn up on time. The transport in Cork and Ireland in general compared to Europe and the rest of the planet is utterly utterly dismal.

      Prior to a recession, i would have thought that site was a pivotal link from merchants quay to parnell place and could have had either retail/office paying rent to CIE, i.e. the state earning money off of one of their sites from rental income, while having a smaller bus hub there as well. Irish Rail need to be CPO’d for negligence and at the height of the boolm, could have had the Horgans Quay site developed, with the intercity buses going from there. The way they pull out on the main road at the current station is a bit mad and the fact that the direction of the road on one side by the former animals home goes away from the direction they want to go and the other leads onto merchants quay, the middle of the city i.e. traffic, means it isnt efficient. I have seen many other cities with bus stations in/near city centres but they are hubs for rail as well and have been designed efficiently to get transport in and out as quickly as possible.

      I take your point that people arriving there to walk into work would probably find that easier than getting two buses and it might also be a pain to get a bus to one place and then hop on another smaller one to get into the city centre, but as i said, leave a smaller bus hub there, do a review to see if routes can be made more efficient. i’m open to debate. lets just improve what we have now.

      I dont understand your last point, but what i mean is, given that cars are being squeezed out of the middle of the city (quite rightly to make it better to walk around), those little imp buses that were in dublin might be handy to be allowed zip around and drop people off to bus station, rail, airport, park and rides at the edge of the city, docklands, maybe some hotels (another money earner for the city – get the hotels to pay) and some of them then in the summer for the major tourist traps.

      There is a transport study being done at the moment. I cant be too far off anyway, the hub at Horgans quay is being proposed for the Docklands.

    • #780503
      venividi
      Participant

      Pug, I’m sorry if I sounded aggressive, I didn’t intend to.

      I have to agree with you on the fact that Cork bus station is just too small to be really efficient, buses are parking and manoeuvring in crazy way. It would make sense to combine a more spacious bus station with a rail station, it would also be an architectural opportunity (an amazing bus/train/subway station in Valencia by Calatrava comes to mind). But.
      Cork is a small town and it seems appropriate to have buses coming into the very middle of it, especially the local ones. Then, to throw out only intercity buses? It seems odd to have two bus stations in such a small town, it would only cause a lot of confusion.

      Also,the bus station is a public space of a sort in the centre of town and in my opinion Cork really lucks public spaces (no town square, not even a plaza nowhere to be found) and to replace it with another retail/office/whatever would be just sad. Ugly as it is, it’s a place where tourists, people going to work and Corkonions mix and interact.

      And I’m just very very doubtful about efficiency of any “fleet of minibuses” in Ireland – to use your words: “The transport in Cork and Ireland in general compared to Europe and the rest of the planet is utterly utterly dismal.”

    • #780504
      Pug
      Participant

      aha, we’re some way in agreement, put it this way, in the space of a couple of posts i reckon we have talked more about the transport and buses policy in cork than the department of transport has in a long time.

      You’re right in that it would have to be looked at but its just a personal opinion that the current station is inefficient for the intercity express buses. I agree with you that there should be some sort of public space there alright, it would be nice that side of the city if people were waiting on the small buses. Expand the building on the site, put in some sort of public space/park, then rent out some of the space so the state earns money from its site, increase the height (the precedent is now set with an 8 storey office block going up right next to the station), dump the intercity buses out of there where possible

      The key to the small little buses zipping around the place is to first get more cars out of the city and b) the absolute key. Dont let the state run it ( why? ask CIE and Bus Eireann why they are having to be rationalised and all their fares put up).

    • #780505
      TooMuchFreeTime
      Participant

      Hey just reading your talk on transport and posted a reply on the transport tread if you interested. sorry would have posted it here only i though it would be better suited to the transport tread.:)

      https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=5046&page=41

    • #780506
      sovereign12
      Participant

      Was passing the elysian this morning and noticed a large unit at the back of the building on the albert street side by the traffic lights is being fitted out to be occupied and also I noticed a few appartments in the tower are light up at night and appear to be occupied. Does anybody have any info as to weather people are already moving in? I was under the impression this building was a white elephant.

    • #780507
      Saucy Jack
      Participant

      @sovereign12 wrote:

      Was passing the elysian this morning and noticed a large unit at the back of the building on the albert street side by the traffic lights is being fitted out to be occupied and also I noticed a few appartments in the tower are light up at night and appear to be occupied. Does anybody have any info as to weather people are already moving in? I was under the impression this building was a white elephant.

      Some Bank has taken that unit AFAIK. ACC ?

      A couple of apartments have been sold allright but then again The Empire State was launched during the great depression and they had to leave the lights on at night to make it seem more attractive.

    • #780508
      Pug
      Participant

      think ACC are taking that unit

    • #780509
      opus
      Participant

      I read on another forum that ACC also provided the funding for the building to start with.

    • #780510
      Leesider
      Participant

      first residents are supposed to be moving in around March according to Sheery Fitz in the Weekend Examiner!

    • #780511
      malec
      Participant

      Aren’t there people already living there? There are about 2 or 3 sets of lights on at the one time.

    • #780512
      Leesider
      Participant

      Yeah seen that as well, but as someone said this could just be done to give a good impression!

      Prefer the lighting that they have on it tonight, looks a lot better than the red or blue etc

    • #780513
      browser
      Participant

      @opus wrote:

      I read on another forum that ACC also provided the funding for the building to start with.

      Think that is right having researched it.

    • #780514
      opus
      Participant

      Noticed the Elysian flats have appeared on Daft to rent:

      1-bed
      3-bed

    • #780515
      corkdood
      Participant

      It should be renamed O’Flynns Folly!

    • #780516
      who_me
      Participant

      I have to say, some of the shots there (and on The Elysian site) are pretty sweet.

      If it weren’t for the (presumably, crazy) maintenance fees and the fact I just bought a year or so again, I’d definitely be interested.

    • #780517
      Leesider
      Participant

      was talking to a polish lad who worked on it and he was saying that the communal garden is wasy too small for 250 apartments so not a suitable place for families. Said they are nicely finished though.

      Also said 40 deposits were put down but only 20 went ahead, the remainder fell through mainly due to problems securing mortgages

    • #780518
      Pug
      Participant

      only 190 remaining then, quick, while theres a few left!!

    • #780519
      corkblow-in
      Participant

      Bit Harsh lads – they took a shot and they’re taking a hit.

      Actually got into a lot of them through a pal who shall remain nameless and I have to say that some of the apartments and the features are fantastic. First scheme I have been in that would make me consider moving into the city. As for the garden….it isn’t meant to be a football pitch….surely the bigger problem there is the lack of parks in the city. Although that one by Albert Road isn’t too far away.

      Good scheme….bad timing.

    • #780520
      Pug
      Participant

      ah sure its only a bit of merriment, I’m sure Michael O’ Flynns millions will comfort his recessional pain. The Elysian is really nice, I saw them myself, still think they are pricey and this business of paying a high price for the apartment, then probably some fit out, then car space costs, probably another car space cost and management fess, just think its stretching it a bit

      They are really nice inside though except the 1 beds I found very small, credit to the man for having the guts and vision

    • #780521
      somenewnews
      Participant

      Check out the Elysian build movie on youtube

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXKdehfccyA

    • #780522
      rofbp
      Participant

      i heard a rumour at the weekend from a friend, who had links to the builders of the tower, but i was wondering if there was any truth to it:

      he said that there were only a few apartments occupied, and that building management fees were costing a fortune (security, public area lighting etc), so the building owners were offering to buy out existing apartment owners so they could turn the whole building into a hotel.

      any truth to it?

    • #780523
      Leesider
      Participant

      @rofbp wrote:

      i heard a rumour at the weekend from a friend, who had links to the builders of the tower, but i was wondering if there was any truth to it:

      he said that there were only a few apartments occupied, and that building management fees were costing a fortune (security, public area lighting etc), so the building owners were offering to buy out existing apartment owners so they could turn the whole building into a hotel.

      any truth to it?

      wouldn’t be one bit suprised, there were around 20 apartments rented out in there but they were spread all over the place. Sensible thing in my opinion would be to rent out 1 or 2 blocks and then turn the remainder into a hotel.

    • #780524
      Pug
      Participant

      it wouldnt surprise me but wouldnt that involve O’ Flynns spending an awful lot of money revamping the insides of the tower? Unless they market it as a luxury aparthotel or something. Would be very unlikely to happen i would have thought. Why not just drop the prices and sell the whole thing off?

    • #780525
      jungle
      Participant

      There is a gap in the market in Cork for a proper aparthotel complex. But the fit-out inside the Elysian is way above what you get in the standard aparthotel. They’d have to charge ridiculously high amounts and would probably end up pricing themselves out of any potential market.

    • #780526
      Pug
      Participant

      not all the apartments are fitted out if i recall correctly from the nice man in DTZ who gave me a tour, so that might mean it wouldnt cost O’ Flynns much to sort it out into an aparthotel, it would be very high class though, presumably that would just be the tower part that they would offer as an aparthotel though? Imagine what they would charge for the one with the Porsche kitchen!

    • #780527
      rofbp
      Participant

      @Pug wrote:

      it wouldnt surprise me but wouldnt that involve O’ Flynns spending an awful lot of money revamping the insides of the tower? Unless they market it as a luxury aparthotel or something. Would be very unlikely to happen i would have thought. Why not just drop the prices and sell the whole thing off?

      thats what i thought when i heard it initially, haven’t heard any further details since. thanks for feedback

    • #780528
      rofbp
      Participant

      From the City Development Plan 2009-2015:
      http://www.corkcity.ie/media/Volume%201%20-%20Written%20Statement_opt.pdf
      page 160

      “Policy 13.15 City Centre Tourism
      The City Council will continue to support and develop the city centre’s tourist economy and work closely with tourism
      agencies to develop strategies that build on the City’s tourist appeal.
      13.41 To develop the City Centre’s range of hotels the City Council will support the upgrade of the
      existing hotel accommodation base where appropriate and encourage the development of medium to large
      hotels outside of the fine grain of the historic core in accessible and attractive locations close to the City
      Centre. In order to provide a level of direction to the market, the City Council has identified potential
      locations where hotel applications would be favourably considered. These provide the opportunity to
      combine waterfront locations, mixed use developments, and active frontages at ground floor level as well as
      expanding the quality hotel base in the City Centre:
      �� Albert Quay / Eglinton Street block.
      �� Sullivan’s Quay
      �� Copley Street/South Terrace”

      would fit with the theory, but isn’t proof one way or the other

    • #780529
      Pug
      Participant

      Elysian as an aparthotel might not be so far fetched after all

      http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/property/2009/0709/1224250305547.html

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