Maskhadov
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THis thread is about relocating the Port. I wont get bogged down and answer another question on Irish history.
This was (and is, despite some contextualising debate) about the PD’s proposal on Dublin port. I provided some thoughts on the attitude to infrastructural development in the Republic.
My point was the problem was related to the Irish pysche. We were a post conial nation and it took us a while to get going.
The billions upon billions we received from the EU (and still do!!!) does not qualify as help? As regards Northern Ireland, I ams till waiting to here how it affected the Republic’s economy. Ya, it may have detered some investment in the border counties, it may have cost the army, the guards, and the prison service some extra money, but we rae not talking about major amounts of the nation’s resources. You could cross the border at Blacklion during the height of the troubles and there would have been about 5 Irish soldiers and three gardai there at any one time. There was never a major secuirty operation of any prolonged duration that brought the Republic’s economy to the brink of collapse or anywhere near it.
The money we recieved from the EU will all be paid back, starting in the next few years. We recieved approximately €40bn for infastructure projects (which we spent far better and more efficeiently than anyone else) while at the same time we handed out €40bn in fisheries to Spain and the rest of them. We could have simply declared the waters as Irish and refused access.
The troubles in the north were effectively our cold war in the south. If the country started to move it would have been very destablising. A lot of people wanted a 32 county republic before progress began. Looking back at history in hindsight is a completely different angle than being there and your ignorance is astounding.
In short, ireland wasnt a nice place to live back then, we had massive emmigration, we had a society based on the catholic church which was rotten to the core and corrupt. We had high unemployment and little natural resources. There was no such thing as foreign direct investment. Up until recently the idea of a small country existing was highly questionable. Only large countries could exist. A point you dont even mention.
We were a country who faced 500 years of war, famine and other problem while the continental countries had 500 years of peace and stability (largely) and the nation state. To compare Ireland with a 500 year old nation state is a pathetic sham and your arguement is false.
I do not know how to respond to this. The British Government (not ‘the English’) probably resourced the building of NI’s motorwayS through British tax payers money (that would include taxes paid by workers in NI). What building company physically built the motorways, I do not know. I am sure though that a load of English workers did not pile into a ship to come to build it – local labourers probably contributed a great deal. I could be corrected on that if someone knows a great deal about the building of NI’s motorways.
English / British. Dont get pedantic. The fact of the matter is that the north could NOT sustain itself and all that money came from British tax payers in England and the north sea oil. The north did nothing for itself. Its still €8bn short each year today. A failed state. Actually building the motorways is nothing. All the expertise came from England and there is no skill in manual labour. That point is absolutely irrelevant
!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anglo-saxon government in england. Time to do a bit of research on the cultural, ethnic and political history of our closest neighbour.
Go and do some research of your own and you will find out that although England is a mutli ethnic country. Those in power do not reflect this !!
! Words fail me. I think you are toothing the micky out of me now.
No Im not. You’ve lost the plot on your rant.
Personally I dont think that any Anglo Saxons invaded this island. I think there was defintely some natural migration between the two isles but apart from the plantations (which were those scotish lunatics) we largely escaped the Anglo Saxons:)
I think as the archaeologists continue to dig they will find that we did do a large amount of trade with our nearest neighbour, even during the Roman Empire.
infastructure is not the real issue.
The real issue Is to do with the national charachter and national pyhce. We changed a great deal in the early 1990’s and trying to compare Pre 1990’s with Post 1990’s is not valid.
Pre 1990’s we had a large number of issues to sort out. We werent helped by anyone really and had one hand tied behind our back with emmigration and the north.
You have a selective memory of history. The english built that motorway in the north. Not anyone from northern ireland. So they didnt make any progress themselves. They never progressed an inch.
The north got on so well because the anglo saxon government in england decided to pump the north with millions and millions to try and show up the new state in the south. they ridculed anything related to Ireland. Be it the name “Eire” (which we cant use anymore because of all the baggage associcated with it) or the punt which the english regularly tooth the mick out of.
You need a reality check PDLL, some parts of your posts are a nonsense.
Of course the conflicts in Ireland werent of the same scale as that in Germany but you have to factor in population size. The vast majority of people in northern ireland knew somone who died in the conflict. The entire island was affected and it did hold the entire island back. You cant not recognise the problems that plagued this island for decades.
I dont want to get bogged down in Irish history. At the end of the day its all behind us and we cant change any of it. What we can change is the future and adopt a more can do approach like other nations. The port can be relocated without too much hullabaloo if there is political will.
Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
I remain unconvinced whether the port will actually be relocated in a reasonable timescale, I also doubt wether the government has the balls to press ahead with the Tuskar tunnel, Shannon deep port and HSR in this country. Even some of the pressure groups dont seem to have the stomach to campagin for these 4 major projects.
You only have to look to China to see what can be achieved in such a short period of time. They went from bog to high rise in just a matter of a few decades. Were just mucking around with semi-d’s. The PD’s came about the shake the political establishment. I dont think they have been radical enough but if they were to press ahead with the relocation of Dublin Port then I would gladly vote for them.
I am very intrested in the history of ireland. There may have well been anglo saxons in dublin but they could have been limited to a very small number. I think there is DNA proof to show that Irish people are very far from being anywhere related to the anglo saxons.
I think were somewhere in the middle. Yes after 1922 we didn’t do a whole pile and struggled for many decades but we had an awful lot of things to sort out.
We weren’t getting the full island which a major psychological barrier to get over.
We were a post colonial nation who had to start from scratch. It takes a long time for a nation to build up expertise itself in all areas that it’s involved in.
There were other factors; Britain and Ireland were not at ease with the separation and the trade war didn’t help things. Neither did the civil war for that matter.
Throw in more instability during the Second World War and missing out on the Marshall plan afterwards and then political and social upheaval in the north during the 60’s which destabilized the island.
On top of all that you had huge emigration where the best of your population got up and left. Considering all that you have a nation which did alright.
We did miss manage the economy for decades and it took us a long time to get it right (and plan a year ahead like the Americans were doing for years and years).
I don’t know how any of this is particularly relevant to relocating the Dublin Port. The only points which I have are
The individual has too many rights in Irish law and the collective good of the nation doesn’t supercede the individual enough.
Brian Boru kicked out all the Vikings back in the 11th century and we haven’t been able to plan anything since. However I think we have learnt a great deal in the last decade and we can achieve world class infrastructure if we put our minds to it and adopt best international practice and a can do approach.
Personally I would like to see the Critical Infrastructure Bill being put through the D
@Tuborg wrote:
Munchins house is that horrific concrete and plastic structure that has “welcomed” visitors to the city over the shannon bridge for far too long(think since the late 60s), thankfully its going to be demolished in august,i was getting worried they were going to reclad it!, first it was meant to go in 2003 then 2004 but now its finally goin to bite the dust!
I’ve also enclosed a few pics of the savoy cinema thats going to be demolished shortly to make way for a new hotel and retail development,i think everyone will agree it’ll be no loss!, the only interesting part of the site is the former bedford row maternity hospital that was used as an office supplies store for the last 10 years or so
Have they knocked it down yet ???
I agree about that part Morlan.
We live in a pathetic country who couldnt plan a piss up in a brewery let along any major peice of infastructure of signifance.
Our society has completely failed at infastructure and all we ever mastered is endless meaningless chat and soundbites. Any other northern european nation would be pressing on with these projects and would have started to move the port a decade ago.
@Morlan wrote:
It’s NOT feasible.
About 40% of Helsinki Port is open space for 40ft containers. The rest is taken up with large factories and warehouses. Relocating these facilities wouldn’t be all that difficult.
Dublin port is a different story. A lot of the port has discharging facilities for oil, chemicals and petroleum with an intricate network of pipe lines. There’s also a slight matter of a large power plant and Dublin’s state-of-the-art sewage plant. There’s is no way these could be relocated. The costs of relocating these facilities would be astronomical.
Also bear in mind that the Dublin Port Company is in the planning stages of reclaiming 21 hectares of land in order to expand the port.
Progressive Democrats – nice try, but no cigar.
The cost of relocation would be high YES but the benefits would be also ASTRONOMICAL. A proper evaluation of relocating the port should be undertaken by a professional body or some committe.
They are about to apply for more space for the port but that doesnt mean it should be given the green light. They can say no and start to move certain parts out of the port.
Anything is possible providing there is the political will
i think the issue about the graphics is a silly one and shouldnt be discussed. Of course they just jumped a load of high rises on the docks. It is only designed to give an idea to people. The PD’s as a political party dont have access to a lot of graphical artists.
When i read these stories they are both exciting and sad. Exciting that something like this could go ahead but sad because of the ar$e ways planning in the country. No other country in the world would have built the port tunnel and then started to discuss moving the port within a few months of the tunnel opening.
Dublin port will reach capacity by 2008. They will want to futher infil the area after that. I think the nation should take the brave and right decision to relocate the port out north of Dublin.
The NIMBY brigade will have a field day but at least the north dublin location can avail of the rail line that connects the whole east coast and should in theory reduce trucks on the road. This project is of national importance and a few hardliners shouldnt be allowed to stop the project.
It would mean a cleaner Dublin with hardly any trucks on the cities streets.
It would mean a major boost for the economy of Ireland and bring the house/apartment costs down in Dublin.
It would result in Dublin being a city of consequence.
It would relaunch the city as being a modern international one and the tall buildings would demonstrate a air of confidence about the nation. (i have always been a firm backer of high rises in Dublin and was just wondering where to put them).
The spin offs are endless. Fair enough the graphics need work but its a fantastic idea that captures the imagination of what the city could be like.
I just blame Brian Boru for kicking out all the northern europeans who had the genes to go ahead with projects like this (and other things like the tuskar tunnel). We will probably debate this issue for another decade before going ahead with it.
@PDLL wrote:
I was in Dublin a couple of months ago. I was thinking that things hadn’t changed so much in that time – mind you, the train service to Sligo still has a certain ‘indian-esque’ appearance.
They dont call it the calcutta express for nothing 😀
i posted this on boards.ie a while back.. the article was in the sunday tribune. The PD’s came up with it i belive.There was mixed reaction to this. It would make a mockery of the port tunnel.
The residents in Balbriggin werent happy with the whole idea
**edit
I didnt see the artists impression. Well its certainly an area for the highrises providing it was done properly. I would be all for it. I just wonder about floodingThey got it all wrong. Idiots. But then again, I didnt actually think they would put the abbey in the right place. A decent design will hopefully limit the damage.
What they should do is fix the ugly loopline bridge.
O’Connell Street overhaul due to be completed in May
Olivia KellyThe redevelopment of O’Connell Street in Dublin, which has caused huge disruption to traffic and pedestrians for the last four years, is due to be completed next May, six months ahead of schedule.
The final phase of construction, at the northern end of the street, began on April 26th this year; it was estimated it would continue for 18 months. However, the city council said the work had been accelerated and was now scheduled for earlier completion.
The first phase of the regeneration of the capital’s main street began in 2001 and was completed late last year. It involved the creation of a central plaza outside the GPO and the installation of the Spire.
This second phase comprises the area of Upper O’Connell Street from the junction of Henry Street-North Earl Street northwards to Parnell Street. It also includes the east side of Lower O’Connell Street from Abbey Street Lower southwards to Eden Quay.
Work on the section of Lower O’Connell Street will be “substantially completed” by Christmas, the council said yesterday, and Upper O’Connell Street, a larger and more complex area of redevelopment, should be finished in the early weeks of May.
The acceleration of the project was made possible in part because of good weather, Martin Kavanagh, executive manager of the council’s development department, said. “It really makes a difference to schedules.”
No major difficulties were encountered with underground services such as tele-
communication lines or water and waste service, which also helped to shorten the work.
The council now proposes to begin work on the Parnell Square improvement scheme. A public consultation project will start early in the new year. During the first phase of this project the road will be narrowed on Parnell Square North to two lanes, where a new gate to the Garden of Remembrance will be opened. Paving, lighting and tree-planting will also start.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2005/1214/534538783HM5OCONNELL.html
© The Irish Timesgood news:)
Its exactly what Im saying. We can have our traditional towns in the centre with a more structure approach outside it. Just because it is structured or grided, it doesnt have to be boring. Architects can design exciting and unique buildings on a grid type system.
It doesnt even need to be a grid type system either , just a more organised top down approach from one agency. There is an awful sprawl, ribbon development and other nasty things outside the centre with a lot of irish towns.
We could take care of all that if a political decision was made to try to put order with future expansion of our towns. We are facing a few decades of growth and I personally belive that we should try to develop our towns in a managed structured way.
With all the bypasses we are building throughout the country, it is a perfect oppurtunity to go about planning.
