Dublin Port – Feasible or not?
- This topic has 100 replies, 41 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
i think the issue about the graphics is a silly one and shouldnt be discussed. Of course they just jumped a load of high rises on the docks. It is only designed to give an idea to people. The PD’s as a political party dont have access to a lot of graphical artists.
When i read these stories they are both exciting and sad. Exciting that something like this could go ahead but sad because of the ar$e ways planning in the country. No other country in the world would have built the port tunnel and then started to discuss moving the port within a few months of the tunnel opening.
It’s NOT feasible.
Dublin port is much larger, compact, and more complicated than Helsinki port. It’s well over twice the size as Helsinki Port.
Dublin
Helsinki
About 40% of Helsinki Port is open space for 40ft containers. The rest is taken up with large factories and warehouses. Relocating these facilities wouldn’t be all that difficult.
Dublin port is a different story. A lot of the port has discharging facilities for oil, chemicals and petroleum with an intricate network of pipe lines. There’s also a slight matter of a large power plant and Dublin’s state-of-the-art sewage plant. There’s is no way these could be relocated. The costs of relocating these facilities would be astronomical.
Also bear in mind that the Dublin Port Company is in the planning stages of reclaiming 21 hectares of land in order to expand the port.
Progressive Democrats – nice try, but no cigar.
@Morlan wrote:
It’s NOT feasible.
About 40% of Helsinki Port is open space for 40ft containers. The rest is taken up with large factories and warehouses. Relocating these facilities wouldn’t be all that difficult.
Dublin port is a different story. A lot of the port has discharging facilities for oil, chemicals and petroleum with an intricate network of pipe lines. There’s also a slight matter of a large power plant and Dublin’s state-of-the-art sewage plant. There’s is no way these could be relocated. The costs of relocating these facilities would be astronomical.
Also bear in mind that the Dublin Port Company is in the planning stages of reclaiming 21 hectares of land in order to expand the port.
Progressive Democrats – nice try, but no cigar.
The cost of relocation would be high YES but the benefits would be also ASTRONOMICAL. A proper evaluation of relocating the port should be undertaken by a professional body or some committe.
They are about to apply for more space for the port but that doesnt mean it should be given the green light. They can say no and start to move certain parts out of the port.
Anything is possible providing there is the political will
“political will”.. that’s the problem.
Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s a great idea and I’d love to see it happen, but realistically, our government wouldn’t have to balls to undertake such a large project.
I agree about that part Morlan.
We live in a pathetic country who couldnt plan a piss up in a brewery let along any major peice of infastructure of signifance.
Our society has completely failed at infastructure and all we ever mastered is endless meaningless chat and soundbites. Any other northern european nation would be pressing on with these projects and would have started to move the port a decade ago.
Ireland is far from perfect but there’s no need to brand it as pathetic. a decade ago we couldn’t afford to move the port, or do a lot of things. I’m proud to be Irish, even if we have shite infastructure!
Correct Boyler, i too am proud to be Irish and cannot stand the anti Irish, aren’t we crap, other countries are so much better vitriole that springs forth on this suite every few posts.
This country’s principal acheivement is that it has survived the malevolance of its neighbours and its isolated position on the western seaboard of Europe.
On the subject of infrastructure this country is unrecognisable from that of ten or twenty years ago. Back then we had no cash for big projects unless you took it from the schools, the hospitals or the 250,000 unemployed. Anybody who cannot see the acheivements in the intervening period is blind or bigoted.
Guess you don’t travel outside of Dublin that often. Try a nice weekend break in the north west when you get a chance – you will love the drive.
actually i go west more often – and now i have motorway to beyond mullingar – suppose though you wouldn’t consider that progress.
@dodger wrote:
actually i go west more often – and now i have motorway to beyond mullingar – suppose though you wouldn’t consider that progress.
It is progress – the new 50km nearly doubles the number of km of motorway per million in inhabitants in Ireland. Not bad. However, as Ali G would say – ‘keep it real’. Let us put this progress in context. In 1999 we had 22km of motorway per million inhabitants – this is after 5 years of the Celtic tiger and 80 years of political independence and relative stability. In 1999, Germany – 54 years after the total devastation of virtually all of its infrastructure – mustered some 138 km of motorway per million inhabitants. Lets compare Ireland and Austria – countries of nearly the exact same land area. In 1999, we enjoyed no fewer than 94km of motorway while Austria boasted some 1613 km of motorway. Of course, lest we forget, Austria also had to recover from the second world war in the meantime, and still managed to build much of its motorway network across one of the most physically challenging landscapes in western and central europe. After over a decade of rapid economic growth, we should be very proud of this particular stretch of motorway – it is a testament to what the Irish nation can do given the resources – namely 50km of motorway across a landscape that is as flat and unchallenging as could be.
This is far from the only stretch built in this period. There was a time that our friends across the border would mock our roads – not any more. Driving from Dublin to Belfast quickly proves that.
Within ten years we’ll have motorway / dual carriageway from Dublin to Cork and Galway. Perhaps this isn’t quick enough for you and perhaps we’re not the industrial powerhouse of Europe that Germany was but one thing we are not and that is pathetic. We are a country will full employment and working flat our in terms of infrastructure.
@dodger wrote:
Within ten years we’ll have motorway / dual carriageway from Dublin to Cork and Galway. Perhaps this isn’t quick enough for you and perhaps we’re not the industrial powerhouse of Europe that Germany was but one thing we are not and that is pathetic. We are a country will full employment and working flat our in terms of infrastructure.
We will wait and see with regards to the completion of a motorway netwrok across Ireland. Given the standoff that we witnessd at the southern part of the M50 and the nearly twenty year wait to have the relief road through Sligo built, I think we need to pace ourselves a little bit on this one.
Perhaps, a comparison with Germany and Austria was a bad idea – maybe a comparison with the other traditional ‘poor men’ of Europe would be more appropriate. Consider, for example, Spain. In 1999, it had 8,257 km of motorway, that means it ranked highest among all EU countries with some 186 km of motorway per million inhabitants. Puts Ireland’s 22 km per million inhabitants somewhat in the shade. With regard to Ireland being ‘pathetic’, it depends on what you are referring to. In terms of road-building, we are pathetic. The above figures clearly show that we are not really up there with the Romans in this department. Our rail infrastructure is not exactly first class either. Mind you, neither is our national bus netrwork, Dublin’s public transport, and so on.
How much of Spain/Austria etc’s planning and CPO regulations hark back to the days of dictators running the show?
I presume this is a rhetorical question as it would be difficult for me to present an analysis of the history of these countries’ planning laws. I am not negating your suggestion, however, that certain political ideologies may have had an implicit influence on some of the planning laws in these countries.
Lets consider then two countries that are not and have not been run by dictatorships (at least not since the invention of the motorcar): Belgium and France:
Belgium (1999): 1682km; 165km per million inhabitants
France (1999): 9303km; 142 km per million inhabitants
The facts are inescapable. For a country that has one of the highest dependencies on the motorized vehicle in the world, is it not ironic that we have one of lowest rates of motorways per km in the EU? Encapsulates everything about Ireland, if you ask me.
But too be fair in France in particular if they want to build a motorway through your house they will do so without any of the “niceties” that go on over here. Blame deValera for giving too much leeway in the Constitution to NIMBYs if needs be
Returning to a point made above with regard to the PD’s utopian vision of Dublin harbour. If such a plan was ever to get beyond the stage of a two page flyer, the Port Tunnel would not necessarily be a dead loss. Indeed, it could be capitalised on quite nicely. If a ‘mini-Manhatten’ was constructed in the docklands, direct access to the airport would obviously be a huge attraction to companies that would wish to locate in the area. In that regard, it could provide a nice incentive to such companies. It would also provide an opportunity to plan a new port that could be modelled on rail transport rather than motor transport. It could also offer a huge qualitative change in the lives of Dubliners in terms of rescuing the city’s relationship with the seascape (somewhat like the development of an open green area as a public amenity on the site of the old land-fill dump in the Claddagh in Galway). The PD’s plan might seem like pie-in-the-sky at first glance, but it is a very good idea.
Some good points above but what I feel is missing is that it needs to be said that the Irish as a race are a tremendously resiliant and creative society in all respects bar one. We continue to elect morons who promise much and deliver little.
This particular proposal takes the biscuit as does Tom Morrisey in general; this idea was discussed on boards earlier in the summer and the above points were made by different contributors; the clear consensus was that it is an extremely worthy objective to provide a high density mixed use regeneration project in what is now an exclusively industrial / distribution area.
Much of the area on the Northern is sufficiently far away from all the important heritage areas to merit real consideration free from conservation grounds.
What the real problem is and the PDs knew before they published was that this would be SOUTH WHARF PLC all over again and that there would be virtually nothing coming to Dublin Port to pay for the new port as virtually all the plots are held on 99 year leases with an average of 50 to 60 years unexpired. Which as any property advisor will tell you any freehold with a leasehold of over 20 years in place has a virtual nil value.
To compound this untruth Tom Morrisey as coalition partner failed to deliver the interconnector to the docklands until 2015 which if the NDP delays are bourne out should arrive in a timeframe of approximately 2025-28.
Should it happen yes
Will it happen probably not as I’m sure McDowell will veto it just like then incinerator on NIMBY grounds.
Thomond Park wrote:I feel is missing is that it needs to be said that the Irish as a race are a tremendously resiliant and creative society in all respects bar one. We continue to elect morons who promise much and deliver little.Quote:I agree, Thomond Park. However, I would also argue that we are also too quick and willing to listen to the hype thrown out by both the Government and the cultural and political commentators that generate the stuff we consume through the media. I will get back to this point in a minute.The point Thomand Park made, however, is – to my mind at least – indicative of one of the other problems which we face, namely a post-colonial mentality. Thomand Park says that one of our weaknesses is that ‘we continue to elect morons who promise much and deliver little’. True, yet we live in a democracy that enjoys largely free and fair elections. Therefore, it could be reasonably argued that you get what you vote for – in essence, if we vote for morons, we deserve what we get and are, by extention, morons ourselves. In a democracy, the government represents the collective will of the majority, therefore the majority of Irish people must be somewhat moronic, politically at least. If we argue against this, it suggests that we do not have a government that represents the people and, therefore, we live under some form of dodgy non-democratic political regime (perhaps if it was a dictatorship we would have better infrastructure as noted above). To project the blame unto the government without recognising that it is us who have put those people in power is a very post-colonial view of governmental power. It distances the electorate from the elected and heaps all the blame on the latter without recognising that the latter gets its authority from the former.
We have had how many freely elected governments since independence – 20? – I am only guessing. Fair enough, in the early days of the state it was probably more important to have a government composed of our own without any concern for the quality of the people involved. We have had plenty of time however to sort out our priorities, to know the type of people we want to govern us, to get rid of the back-door cowboys. Therefore, if we have a government of morons today, it is either because the electorate is moronic or we just don’t care. We cannot blame the government for this.
The other element I believe which is a factor is what I mentioned above – we are too willing to believe the hype and the spin. Further up this thread, I contrasted the motorway infrastructure in Ireland with that in German and Austria. The counter-argument was that we should not compare Ireland to the industrial powerhouses of Europe. Fair enough. However, you cannot have it both ways. We endlessly talk about Ireland’s economic success – its growth, its wealth, its progress, its outstripping other EU economies. Yet if one points to a deficiency in the country, we argue how can we compare Ireland to Germany. Oddly enough, we are happy to compare Ireland’s favourable employment rates with those of Germany when it supports the hype around the Celtic Tiger. In short, we seem to have lost the run of ourselves in all of this talk about the Celtic Tiger. We have lost our hold on reality. As de Saussure would have said, there is an imbalance between the signified and the signifier. This cannot be blamed solely on the morons in Leinster House. Yes, they give us the stick (the economic figures, the political hype), but it is our journalists, our cultural commentators, our estate agents, our property developers, our car salesmen, our mortgage advisors, who take that stick and run as fast as they can with it waving it vigorously. These people are of course not elected by us, but they do raise our expectations. We are made believe that we are one of the most prosperous countries in Europe, that we have euros oozing out of every pore in our bodies, so is it any wonder why we question why our infrastructure is still extremely limited in comparison to those countries we have allegedly outstripped? (believe me, Europeans do wonder when they arrive here awaiting a land of milk and honey). If we have high expectations, it is because we have been led to believe that we are nothing short of an economic miracle, yet when you probe that miracle to see just what it is made of, we are told that you cannot compare us to the industrial powerhouses of Europe. Best not delve too deeply then – just believe the hype, put the sun roof down on your BMW coupe, cruise along our national primary routes and feel the overgrown encroaching brambles scratch your forehead.
PDLL, you have to compare like with like. In terms of economic success we compare very favourably to the likes of Germany but only over the last 10 years, in terms of infrasturture we currently compare poorly. But this is partly a chicken and egg debate. We have acheived an astonishing economic turnaround and are now working on the infrastructure. If we had built motorways in the 70’s and 80’s there is a chance the tiger would never have arrived. It was McSharry’s cutbacks that kickstaarted the economy not a cash splurge. Instead of constantly moaning can’t we at least concede that we are moving in the right direction and can’t we give the politicians and planners the time they require.
I also don’t agree with the notion that we elect morons any more than other nations.
This is not to say that mistakes have not been made – the M3 route is a travesty – but given prosperity didn’t reach us until 10 years ago i don’t feel we’re doing too bad.
Finally if you really want to know how europe did so well within a short period after the war – it was the Marshall plan and not anything the German’s or French did.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
