New street and redevelopment for Dublin ?
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Arnotts in New York-style plan for city centre
Arnotts in New York-style plan for city centre
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http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1532910&issue_id=13463A MASSIVE redevelopment of Dublin city centre, spearheaded by Arnotts, who have carefully built up a massive land-bank beside the Liffey, will begin early in the new year.
A planning application for a New York-style development that will transform the Henry Street, Middle Abbey Street and Liffey street areas will be lodged in January or February.
The plan may put forward a proposal for a brand new street which will link Middle Abbey Street with Henry Street, to fundamentally alter the geography of Dublin city centre.
Arnotts chairman and shareholder Richard Nesbitt declined to comment but plans for a development of several acres is nearing completion. The mix of retail units with a hotel, bars and restaurants will echo New York’s Columbus Circle which includes the Time Warner Centre and the five-star Mandarin Hotel.
The Arnotts development will stretch from Upper Liffey Street as far as Penneys on Middle Abbey Street and as far as the GPO arcade on Henry Street.
The Arnotts plan combined with the continuing redevelopment of the Ilac centre and the rejuvenation of Roche’s Stores will radically change the city streetscape.
In another high-profile acquisition on O’Connell Street, Shelbourne Developments recently bought Findlater House on the junction of Cathal Brugha Street.
The four-year face-lift of O’Connell Street, which has caused grief for motorists and pedestrians, will be completed in the spring, some months ahead of schedule.
Mr Nesbitt recently admitted that Arnotts, which was taken back into private ownership for €233m just two years ago, had ambitious plans for a redevelopment of its flagship store and the surrounding area which will take some years to complete.
“We plan to develop the sort of world-class retailing that you would expect for the centre of a capital city,” Mr Nesbitt said.
It is likely some of the property will be used by Arnotts and some leased or sold to other retailers. It is understood that acquiring the property and land portfolio has been more expensive than the €100m originally suggested by some experts.
A number of the properties acquired by Arnotts in recent times have already been put in use as satellite stores from the main flagship store.
Arnotts paid around €26m for Independent House on Abbey Street two years ago and recently completed a deal to acquire another important part of the jigsaw.
It is understood that Arnotts has paid well over €11m for the building currently occupied by Chapters bookstore on Middle Abbey Street.
Arnotts has acquired or has an option to acquire some buildings in the GPO arcade and a number of other properties in the Henry Street and Middle Abbey Street areas.
Jerome Reilly
Whats a ‘New York’ style development. Will it be ‘a stunning new development’ full of ‘luxury’ retail units and offering a ‘unique retail experience’ to the shoppers of Dublin. Honestly hyperbole knows no bounds these days.
My smart remarks aside the plan sounds very interesting. I noticed Arnotts already have a bargain shop in GPO arcade. The redevelopment of the Abbey street area in particular would be ver welcome. The construction of Luas was a bit if a missed opportunity to redefine the street and make it into a more pleaseing thoroughfare. Likewise for Liffey Street.
It will be very interesting to see what plans Arnotts come up with for this major site. This whole area is indeed being radically altered. Anyone see the film on RTE2 last night about Moore Street in 1974. What a grim place! All those vacant lots pre-Ilac centre. It really highlights how low things went and how much they have improved.
Though I’d have to say I thought exactly the opposite walking down there the other day under the Ilac canopy – what a monument to human failure that whole stretch is, built with such hope an optimism in the early 80s but now nothing but a decaying pile of grim concrete and grotty brickwork, the traders’ storage units a crude and unkempt backdrop to what could be a lively and pleasant market street. It’s only in hindsight you see that the workability of the Ilac in relation to Moore St depended almost entirely on the usual ‘blinding newness’ ploy – most of which wore away inside 5 minutes.
But yes, the marketing babble aside on the Arnotts proposals, it sounds like a very exciting scheme from an urban improvement perspective; it sounds like a great opportunity to finally address the hole in the bucket that is Liffey St Upper, and the deadness of Middle Abbey St – what could be two fine spaces, Abbey St in particular.
You’d wonder if Arnotts wanted Penneys too – what a foothold that would give them in the north city centre.
Indeed it’s possible they did, as a revamp of the whole BHS store as per Mary St was apparently planned two years ago now, but seems to have been put on hold…….Interesting about the acquisition of the Chapters building. It would be a shame to see it disappear – a decent shop where for once the staff know what they’re about 🙁
“A MASSIVE redevelopment of Dublin city centre”
I think this story is being exaggerated – Arnott’s could not be gaining that much extra space above what they already have just by buying up the remaining smaller shops on the block. A new street might be good to break up the length of Middle Abbey Street and energise it a bit, but not just to generate more and more shopping…
Will be interesting to see the plan. Watch out for the obligatory ‘tower element’.
On the grapevine…
I was chatting to a Senior exec in Arnotts who told me all about this prior to the news being revealed in the Indo. What they told me was quite dramatic…
According to the info I got, the 1960s block fronting onto Henry Street would be demolished and replaced by a street linking Abbey Street. The teneants they are seeking for this development include many US retailers who have never been to Europe before. The intention is to break from the British imported High Street which is repeated ad nauseum throughout Ireland and replace it with stores that will make Henry Street the ultimate shopping destination. The assembled site is much bigger than you may think – it means that on the block surrounded by O’Connell, Henry, Abbey and Liffey Streets, the only major tenants are Pennys, Easons and the GPO – with preactically everything else now in the posession of Arnotts.
Other pointers to the development:
The Car park is to be demolished – all car parking to be replaced to basement level for the entire site.
Arnotts will be redeveloped completely into one of the worlds largest department stores (at present in the top 5 of Britain and Ireland).I think the new street is a great idea – Henry Street suffers from having few steets feeding into it, as opposed to Grafton Street. The plan would undoubtedly spread the city centre from its current dominant Grafton St/O’Connell Street/Henry Street axis.
@J. Seerski wrote:
On the grapevine…
I was chatting to a Senior exec in Arnotts who told me all about this prior to the news being revealed in the Indo. What they told me was quite dramatic…
According to the info I got, the 1960s block fronting onto Henry Street would be demolished and replaced by a street linking Abbey Street. The teneants they are seeking for this development include many US retailers who have never been to Europe before. The intention is to break from the British imported High Street which is repeated ad nauseum throughout Ireland and replace it with stores that will make Henry Street the ultimate shopping destination. The assembled site is much bigger than you may think – it means that on the block surrounded by O’Connell, Henry, Abbey and Liffey Streets, the only major tenants are Pennys, Easons and the GPO – with preactically everything else now in the posession of Arnotts.
Other pointers to the development:
The Car park is to be demolished – all car parking to be replaced to basement level for the entire site.
Arnotts will be redeveloped completely into one of the worlds largest department stores (at present in the top 5 of Britain and Ireland).I think the new street is a great idea – Henry Street suffers from having few steets feeding into it, as opposed to Grafton Street. The plan would undoubtedly spread the city centre from its current dominant Grafton St/O’Connell Street/Henry Street axis.
this sounds excellent not only do we get a new street … a major redevelopment but the demolistion of one of the ugliest buildings in the city
Got this the other day if it’s of any help – from the Roches smoking area balcony on the fourth floor. Great views of the city from up there – pity it’s wasted on manky smokers:
That’s the 1960s part in question Maskhadov.
Great stuff J. Seerski – yes they’ve been pursuing a rigourous acquistion programme for some time now; every so often in the Property pages you’d read of another unit on Henry St being snapped up by them. It seems they own pretty much every building along Henry St at this stage.
I don’t really see the point of punching through to create a new street though – sure Liffey St is only about 5/6 units further up! And it will involve a demolition of a large part of their flagship 1990s extension, only finished 6 years ago! Also building a new street merely consumes what would otherwise be valuable floorspace :confused:
But the opportunities are great – that British high street rubbish on the corner of Henry/Liffey St can be demolished (ever notice how crappy UK High St heritage architecture seeps in over here via UK stores like H. Samuel and Pamela Scott and Clarks on Grafton St?), as well as make Liffey St into an actual street for once, and hopefully spur on the improvement of M&S across the way.
Also, if a street is to be built through, without a doubt it affords the best opportunity ever to reinstate the last two bays and end tower that were demolished from the original building, forming the perfect corner for a new street, while restoring the Victorian composition as originally built.
The Henry St area is already the best shopping location in Dublin – Grafton St/St. Stephen’s Green just cannot compete at this stage. Were Hodges Figgis and other good stores not on the southside, the place would have little at all to offer on the retail front.
A vastly upscaled Arnotts coupled with the new Roches, Penneys, Ilac, Jervis and potential Carlton development pulls one heck of a punch for the Northside.Well I would say one reason for builing a new street would be the added bonus of having (a) a corner building and (b) an enormous stretch of street frontage which would not be possible.
Corner buildings tend to be more valuable and attract a higher premium – bizarre but true – Im sure a property economist would agree. Arnotts re-instating its missing tower would enhance the prominence of the building – as well as correcting an architectural imbalance. Also, a corner tower would also add to the buildings prominence.
As for the building only being extended less than ten years ago, the nature of the business seems to suggest that tearing down and re-building will be a constant feature in retail from now on.
The intention of Arnotts seem to be not only to expand the store, but act as a landlord for new chosen tenants to enhance the value and image of the area, with subsequent impact on the value of Arnotts itself. It is my understanding that the new street would consist of new stand-alone units, with Arnotts being the landlord. It is interesting that Arnotts are doing what should have been done by Dublin Corporation – namely exercising strict controls over what type of store should open at certain loactions. Not only will this improve the tenant quality of the area, but will be in Arnotts long-term commercial interest.
In a simialr way, it always baffled me why Clerys never exploited its frontage on Earl Place – a windswept strecth only yards from O’Connell Street – it has enormous potential for development yet it lies as a service depot, a complete waste of space. In a way its similar to Clarendon Street, however there the former service area for Brown Thomas has become a shopping street in its own right.
According to the info I got, the 1960s block fronting onto Henry Street would be demolished…
Grrrr! I knew the ’60s bit on Henry Street would be first to go in a new Arnotts development 😡
You can’t beat a bit of ’60s curtain walling!! 🙂
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On a related note, here are the Middle Abbey Street buildings demolished in the mid-‘90s during the last big Arnotts redevelopment, including the Lighthouse Cinema, precursor of the IFC (now IFI). The bit of a building on the extreme left is the current Chapters bookshop, and the bit of blank wall on the extreme right is part of the Adelphi Cinema, which currently forms the entrance to Arnotts’ car park:
it would look amazing if arnotts was rebuilt to look like the image on there bags with towers and all…
@Graham Hickey wrote:
Also, if a street is to be built through, without a doubt it affords the best opportunity ever to reinstate the last two bays and end tower that were demolished from the original building, forming the perfect corner for a new street, while restoring the Victorian composition as originally built..
Graham, i think there is only the end tower missing, there are five bays between the central tower and the 60s block which mirrors the other side and the image here
https://archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=8597&postcount=10
Sorry, you’re right – got mixed up with the highlighted three bays you drew out on the ‘bag picture’ in the other thread. Yes only the end tower is missing.
The central one should be rebuilt too as part of these proposed works.
Indeed it’s very disappointing Arnotts did nothing at all to their main facade as part of the late 90s extending; they spent nearly €60 million doubling the size of the store, which was a vast sum at the time, yet did nothing to their flagship exterior save some minor works around the main entrance.They really ought to make an effort in opening up their upper windows like Clerys have done to make the facade less dead and improve the store’s interaction with the outside world, as much as retailers hate doing this.
The facade could be spectacularly floodlit, and the glum brickwork cleaned up. There’s lots of bits and pieces tacked on about the place that could do with removal too.And as much as the canopy has become something of a landmark, and has attractive bronze banding, were it to be removed it would reveal the magnificent original display windows with carved limestone dressings and Arnott & Co lettering. The canopy also seperates the ‘consumer world’ that is ground level from the upper facade in the worst way possible.
A vast, grand, turn-of-the-century building would suddenly emerge in the middle of Dublin were it to be removed.In this pic taken through the dirty windows of Roches (don’t think they factored in the fact they wouldn’t be able to clean the exterior of that restaurant) – you can see how grand the windows are, and how they’re crudely cut in two by the canopy, not to mention the highly elaborate entrance surround:
What!? Classic Christmas crap – where would we be without them? Well, Henry St might actually be navigable, but that’s beside the point – you won’t get a selection box cheaper anywhere else, although the reasons behind that are perhaps best left undisturbed…
Here’s the Arnotts central tower as taken just after 1916 – also not forgetting that the still-standing left-hand pavilion’s mini tower is now missing too:
And here’s an image from Google Earth that I’ve attempted to put some shape on, displaying the mammoth scale of what Arnotts now appear to own.
White: Site Arnotts appear to now own.
Red: Current store.
Green: Original Victorian building.
Blue: Penneys/BHS Building
Yellow: Easons
Orange: Proposed Street?
Provision has been made for a corner tower rebuild 🙂
You can clearly see what a coup it would be to acquire the Penneys site with access to O’Connell Street, but as they can name their price I wouldn’t bank on a sale any time soon…
You can also see just how close any proposed street would be to Liffey St (think I have it running through the Chapters building :eek:) – particularly pointless I would have thought if Arnotts owned all of Liffey St anyway, including two prominent corners.
Also an 80s aerial image that offers a different viewpoint (red Arnotts site, blue Penneys):
http://www.fantasyjackpalance.comInteresting to see the central dome part under construction (the black roofed part), and the scale of the Independent building and printing works, as well as the lovely buildings Devin posted earlier – never saw them before :(, and the Adelphi cinema (apparently there were 2300 seats in that shed :eek:).
All of this a far cry from the small beginnings of the Victorian Arnotts facing Henry St on the far left.
There’s great views to be had of that rear elevation from the upper floors looking through the glass dome.Just on a point of interest, the Lighthouse didn’t turn in to the Irish Film Institute.
That is an entirely separate state-sponsored venture.
The Lighthouse owners were looking for another site, at the time of the last Arnotts redevelopment, but with the tight margins they were operating on couldn’t find somewhere appropriate.
Last I heard, they are going to reopen in the new Smithfield development, the West Side.
Apologies for going off the point.
As regards Chapters, I wonder have Arnotts promised them premises in the new street of shops that they are going to create.
Although, they are over three floors and need a fairly sizable shop floor. You could see them move directly across the street.Ok right – but I meant it loosely as well – Light house were the precursor in spirit to the IFC. Glad to hear they might be back.
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@Graham Hickey wrote:
Yes only the end tower is missing [the ‘bag picture’]
The central one should be rebuilt too as part of these proposed works.This is funny: In the book Lost Dublin, a 1949 newspaper piece is quoted, describing the removal of the central tower, which it was claimed ‘served no useful purpose. Its style accorded with no know known style of architecture, it was utterly useless from a utility point of view, and was always regarded as a piece of misconceived Victorian decoration’ 😀 . Interesting question though]have[/I] to be done), should the central tower with its domed roofs & viewing gallery be reconstructed as well, and should the small domed roofs be put back on the terminating towers, and should the missing egg-urned parapet balustrade along the whole front be reinstated?
Here’s what will have to be replicated at the west end of the facade – any takers?!
Excluding the lovely Office shoeshop building, all of the buildings from Arnotts down to the Liffey Street corner are utter rubbish (above). Do Arnotts definitely have all of these? – Great! Can’t wait to see them go – mid-‘80s tat!
The only one of perhaps any interest is the white-painted one 2nd from the corner. It probably dates to the original 18th century layout of Henry Street, but has an Edwardian orange brick refacing, now painted. It’s probably heavily altered and featureless inside as well. You couldn’t get worked up about it.There’a great view of that Office shoeshop building from the Roches restaurant – it looks like a cardboard cut-out you’re so high up! Alas the windows are just too dirty up there to get any decent image of it.
Its style accorded with no know known style of architecture
You can say that again :D. A most bizarre yoke that doesn’t even seem to be derived from Islamic architecture as is perhaps initially suggested. Indeed the entire Arnotts building is very strange – the central parts of the wings are standard enough, but the use of towers and pinnacles and crenellations and all the rest of it is quite bizarre.
A big masculine Edwardian-style building with Eastern fancy bits stuck on top!The terminating towers should definitely be reroofed as a matter of necessity – the building must be more clearly demarcated in that red brick streetscape. The central tower would certainly be more contentious, not least as consideration for the building ought to be just as important today as in 1896 or 1949.
I’d like to see it rebuilt, though it is difficult to make out its impact without seeing the colourings and textures of the materials used in the above depictions. Similarly the view above simply does not exist, so that doesn’t really count as any sort of credible indicator.It will also have the Jervis plant room to compete with :rolleyes:
Green: Original Victorian building.
Orange: Proposed Street?
… You can also see just how close any proposed street would be to Liffey St …
Would it not be better to have the new street run to the other side (east) of the original building? At the Abbey Street end it would probably then come out at the Adelphi cinema – where the cars now go in! – don’t know about that …
Another question is raised, though, in relation to the new street running either immediately to the west or east of the original building: Will the facade of the relevant terminating tower facing the new street need to mirror that of Henry Street? If it doesn’t, it’s going to look like a fake tack-on with no volume. If it does, the building still won’t be symmetrical because the other end will be terraced into an adjoining building. Gaahh!!
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