theblimp
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I wonder what bearing, if any, last night’s Evening Echo story about a marquee-type ‘venue’ at the Landfill site will have on HH’s plans for the Docklands. I understand planning there is either through or imminent. Can’t see the CCC supporting 2 similar-size structures, but what do I know!!
Kite – memory is fading me here on this one, but I was strongly under the impression that the original terms of the OCP/McC Devs Mahon Point deal was that if OCP didn’t build the ‘Trade Centre’ then they would have to pay the penalty fee AND the land would revert to CCC ownership. CCC have backtracked now and said it was just the penalty fee …. however I do remember reading that it was an ‘AND’, not an ‘OR’ way back in Nav. House!!!
As for CCC equity in HH’s centre in the Dockland’s, I was also always under the impression that this was to be the case. However I’m pretty sure you’ll find that the ‘deal’ done has resulted in NO equity being taken by CCC – ‘Here ya go, poor impoverished HH, just take the money’!!!!! 😮
With regard to the location of that bridge, I do indeed seem to recall some talk (way back) of a bridge running south from the ‘Skew Bridge’ in the road by Tivoli (when it jumps over the rail-line). Perhaps this is where they’re talking about.
Yes the plan was for heavy commercial traffic to leave the city docks, but there has always been a desire to retain access for leisure, navy, small cruise, tallships, etc. etc. – therefore this would have to be taken into account with any new bridge
With regard to the waterbus concept, while I think it’s a wonderful idea, I feel that one of the biggest probs is going to be the speed restriction from Blackrock Castle in to the quays. Anyone who’s every come up-river by boat will testify that it takes quite some time to complete that leg of the journey within the speed limit. I can’t see the rowing clubs allowing a new waterbus service gaining a special dispensation here. Also remember that this speed limit is speed over water, NOT speed over ground. So while the limit is (I think) 5 knots, if you’re up against a 3-knot tidal stream, you’re only making good 2 knots over ground …… casual walking pace 🙁
“Yes that was the one with the great colour job.”
I remember driving around the back of the airport that day heading for Kinsale when I met a huge bunch of ‘spotters’. I asked them what the deal was and they told me about the imminent arrival of the Quantas 747. I remembered something about this from the previous day’s paper concerning the passengers onboard being from many of Oz’s great vineyards on a promotional tour, so I asked the spotter was it the ‘wine’ one. Reply was “naw boy, ’tis all different colours”. You couldn’t make it up !
radioactiveman – matters between Munster Ag. and CCC are still ongoing with the ‘compensation’ element to be addressed in a few weeks time. As such I think it’s only right that I not comment publicly on the questions you raised – at least not until such time as the above matter is completed.
Radioactiveman – probably very similar, we’ve been working on this for quite a while now. We kept our heads down during the CPO as we didn’t wish to be involved in the process, but it is possible that an early version of our plans for the site were utilised by the Munster Agricultural Society to show that there was in fact some movement on the site.
Agree with both points about the Cork County Board – yes it would be great / yes, it’s highly unlikely. What we had hoped for was the opening of a discussion on same. Pairc Ui Chaoimh has a long history of major assistance from the city and the Munster Ag. – we feel that it’s only fair for a discussion on municipal useage to entered into in advance of more assistance from public funds.
Just one final quick matter, and it’s by way of illustrating the consequences of not having ‘experience’ dictate the brief and manage the submissions (and not a dig at the HH proposal)
Those that have today’s (Wed.) Examiner – have a look at the site plan for the HH proposal. Many concerts and shows can have in excess of 12 artic trucks requiring back-stage parking. Where do they go on this sitemap? Furthermore imagine a large exhibition being held there tomorrow. You could have in excess of 100 stands at this show and each one has a crew in at least one van looking to park alongside the centre so that they can ‘load-in’ and ‘build’ their stands. How easy would it be in that site? (again, I’m just asking the questions so don’t flame me for it 😮 )
On a very final, related, matter – the chosen operator for the HH centre is ‘Live Nation’ (formerly Clear Channel). I personally have a few problems with this – namely:
1. Live Nation are primarily a concert promoter/concert venue company – they don’t have strengths in Conference and Exhibition activity. While the concerts grab the headlines, it’s the conferences and exhibitions that make the ‘bread and butter’ which keeps such a centre viable
2. Live Nation tend to prefer to move concert activity outdoors during the Summer to maximise returns – this could leave Cork with a pretty poor range of activity from May to Sept each year
3. Live Nation are heavily involved with the redevelopment of the Point in Dublin. Some could argue that by holding the only other major venue in the country they’ve created something of a monopoly, or a ‘blocking’ move.Again, just my thoughts. To any one who still thinks it’s envy, sour grapes or anything similar can I offer that if I really felt this way I’d be running to the papers, not archiseek. I’m putting the points here because I feel I’m talking to people who have a genuine interest in development matters in Cork. I’m not going to change anything about the result, but I might be able to provide some others with a better insight into things.
radioactiveman – I hope I didn’t give the impression that I was connected in any way to the Munster Agricutural Society, because neither I nor our submitting group are. Therefore I can’t really comment on the prior actions, or inactions, of same. We identified the Showgrounds site as the optimum one for our proposal and suggested (in our submission) that instead of seeking the monetary investment from City Hall, we investigate some mechanism whereby we gained a lease to the land once the CPO was completed. It was, and remains, our position that the City would be far better served with our plans for that site, than the stated plans for a public park.
Yes, we did wait the three weeks for one very real reason – we expected that there would be a substantial brief forthcoming and we would have to tailor any submission accordingly. We already had our design and our research done, but the submission itself would have to suit the brief criteria. To be honest the actual criteria were amazingly vague (this being part of the reason why I’m now concerned about the entire process). I don’t really think that was laziness on our part, more ‘prudence’ I would have thought
Sorry Spinal Tap, if it came across as bitter in any way then it read different to what was meant.
Hand on heart, if the deal was that we could build it but I could never make a cent out of it, I wouldn’t be bothered. Over five years of thorough research has given me an insight into this sector and I genuinely believe that mistakes were made in this process. Ones that will, very sadly, mean that we have all missed an opportunity.
I’m neither bitter, nor angry …. just sad and frustrated.
“How many big shows even in London sell 10,000+ seats ?”
mmm …. pretty much all of them! (02 Arena / Wembley Arena / etc.). Likewise with Birmingham, Manchester and a whole lot more.
In any case that’s not the point I was making – Belfast has, and Dublin will soon have, 10,000+ seating capacity venues. Here in Cork we have a similar catchment (draw an arc 1.5-2hrs from Cork), although 10,000 may be a little too large so 8,000 would (in my opinion) be an ideal max (although it needs to scaleback without looking like a half-empty barn)
Jaysus, don’t misunderstand me … I’m not against one being built…that’s why we submitted a proposal for a suitably sized one. My concern is over the entire process that selected HH as the ‘preferred’ choice. This concern was then compounded by the manner in which last night’s proceedings were conducted.
You can agree with me, or disagree with me … that’s fine, but I can assure you that there’s a lot more to come into the mix over the coming weeks and months which will shine some clearer light on how these things have been skewed.
“In the U.S. we would build these things and if its a good design and in demand by the community they were the people who determined its ultimate success.”
True, but only in so far as they would probably be built to suit an actual requirement. WHO has determined that the 4,000 seats is the right amount for Cork – similarly who knows if our belief that 8,000 seats is correct? The ‘proper’ way would have been to bring in experienced professionals to create a full and detailed brief (i.e.- you need 7,000 seats, mixed capacity of 10,000, supporting 350-bed hotel, etc. etc.) and then use this as the basis for all submissions. This wasn’t done. The councillors, to be fair to them, don’t know how these facilities work so had little choice than to accept the recommendations of a committee who had little knowledge/experience of what the city actually needs. ‘We need an events centre. We’ve got an events centre. Now, on to the next problem’ ….. and we end up with a facility that nobody knows is suitable or not. I believe it isn’t… but only time will tell.Agreed Pug – if we’d been part of what we felt was an open and transparent procedure we wouldn’t have any problem with the result.
WRT Pairc Ui Chaoimh we mentioned in our submission that, at the very least, a discussion should be undretaken in relation to some mechanic bringing it inside an organisation overseeing ‘activity’ at that end of the docklands. We would have liked to engage the GAA in discussions about us designing/funding/building a 40,000+ all-seater as part of our overall development. Now however it looks like the city is going to give the GAA some of the showgrounds site (= public money since City is going to have to pay a LOT of money to Munster Agricultural Society as a result of the CPO) for nothing! If it’s municipal money then there’s an argument for a municipal stadium (ie – ALL sporting codes). Mind you this is still Cork, so I shouldn’t be too surprised. 😉
Not quite as wonderful as all that, I believe. I was connected to one of the other submissions and we raised BIG concerns about the manner in which the process was managed – e.g.: sent initial letter to City Management (CM) on 1st June looking for clarification on criteria under which submissions should be lodged. Many follow-up phonecalls and THREE weeks later we received a reply. This reply came on a Thursday and the submission had to be in for the following Monday (4 days, including a weekend). A request for an extension was denied. We submitted, expected to be called in for further discussion (‘fleshing out’) but nothing more until the media leak last week! There were only four submissions – it wouldn’t have taken a lot to bring each in for a few hours to discuss each submission thoroughly.
Hand on heart I believe that the HH proposal is too small – 4,000 seats. Our own proposal was for up to 8,000 seats PLUS a second 2,000+ seated ‘green-glens’ type arena PLUS a massive indoor waterpark. Anyway you makes yer choices…..!
Think of it this way – major show hits Ireland a few years from now. They play 10,000 seats in Belfast, then 10,000 seats in the redeveloped Point – does it make sense for them to then move everything to Cork for 4,000 seats, or would it be better to play an additional night in Belfast/Dublin before heading across to Manchester MEN Arena for the start of the next leg?
Looks ok, but …. where that new internal marina is showing by PuC, isn’t that where there’s a bloody big power station at the moment? Plus can you really see any of the Cork Developers digging up and flooding development land …. I’d love to see it, but history would tend to indicate that they’ll max out all the available land
Could be wrong, but my memory is screaming that the ‘Trade Centre’ had to be built by a certain date, or OCP would have to pay the penalty …. and .. the land would revert to CCC (despite JG’s current claims to the contrary)
2.5 acres? Probably not – footprint of building alone would prob be around 100,000 sq. ft., then add in all the backstage truck parking, circulation areas, emergency access areas, disabled parking, etc. etc.
Traffic in CCC would probably prefer people to use public transport and/or walk to the site from park&rides / city multi-storerys so that the city gets a knock-on, but 2.5 seems, to me at least, to be well short of what will be required
I’d always been under the impression that the penalty to OCP was not just the money, but they also had to hand back the land in question to CCC !!????!!
I think that the original plan by OCP was for a ‘convention’ centre and that Mary Harney (Minister for Trade at the time) agreed to support it substantially. Plan was that a bunch of Cork-based companies would display in there when other multi-nationals were coming over looking to invest. Sounded a daft idea at the time. Mary thought the same soon after and pulled out. OCP tried to re-jig the thing as an events centre but the site was too tight, too far out of town, and had too many issues concerning traffic management in the immediate area. Furthermore I understand that Clear Channel (now Live Nation – major international venue operators) took one look at the site and headed off pronto
Thanks Kite – looks like the next few months could prove ‘interesting’ for a certain cork developer!
Sadly the article shows that there may be a very dark underbelly behind a lot of what finally ‘makes the news’, and there’s absolutely nothing to indicate that such actions are limited to the past. 🙁
