cork docklands

Well, which is it? It’s great to have a choice of venues, or one is all Cork needs?;)

Honestly, I think one may be enough for the forseeable future, but I’d rather leave it open and let the market decide what Cork can sustain. It will now be more difficult for a second consortium to come forward with a second proposal, as they’d be competing for events against a (effectively) subsidised competitor; regardless of the merits of their design or location.

The point remains – why was the HH selected, and why the secrecy over the selection process? Those questions are anything but indicative of a clear and open process.

I’m very happy with the choice of location; but I’m concerned about the 8m invested; and angry about the secrecy over the selection.

@theblimp wrote:

Not quite as wonderful as all that, I believe. I was connected to one of the other submissions and we raised BIG concerns about the manner in which the process was managed – e.g.: sent initial letter to City Management (CM) on 1st June looking for clarification on criteria under which submissions should be lodged. Many follow-up phonecalls and THREE weeks later we received a reply. This reply came on a Thursday and the submission had to be in for the following Monday (4 days, including a weekend). A request for an extension was denied.

You seem to be suggesting to us that between the date you submitted a letter to city management and the date they replied, you did no work on your submission, because you didn’t know what ‘criteria’ you should lodge it under!!
Its this sort of lazy attitude which has meant the showground site has remained next to useless for decades. Maybe if the Munster Agricultural Society had got off their backsides and proposed something like this for their site BEFORE they were scared into it by CCC, then it wouldn’t have been neccessary to compulsarily purchase the site to open it up to public access.
It takes a private backer to do this, because clearly voluntatary bodies couldn’t muster up the cop on to do so. Even the GAA, who are to be commended on their work with Croke Park have been slow to redevelop Pairc Ui Chaoimh. But then, I seem to recall the Munster Ag Society having something to do with that delay too!!!

Just one final quick matter, and it’s by way of illustrating the consequences of not having ‘experience’ dictate the brief and manage the submissions (and not a dig at the HH proposal)

Those that have today’s (Wed.) Examiner – have a look at the site plan for the HH proposal. Many concerts and shows can have in excess of 12 artic trucks requiring back-stage parking. Where do they go on this sitemap? Furthermore imagine a large exhibition being held there tomorrow. You could have in excess of 100 stands at this show and each one has a crew in at least one van looking to park alongside the centre so that they can ‘load-in’ and ‘build’ their stands. How easy would it be in that site? (again, I’m just asking the questions so don’t flame me for it 😮 )

On a very final, related, matter – the chosen operator for the HH centre is ‘Live Nation’ (formerly Clear Channel). I personally have a few problems with this – namely:
1. Live Nation are primarily a concert promoter/concert venue company – they don’t have strengths in Conference and Exhibition activity. While the concerts grab the headlines, it’s the conferences and exhibitions that make the ‘bread and butter’ which keeps such a centre viable
2. Live Nation tend to prefer to move concert activity outdoors during the Summer to maximise returns – this could leave Cork with a pretty poor range of activity from May to Sept each year
3. Live Nation are heavily involved with the redevelopment of the Point in Dublin. Some could argue that by holding the only other major venue in the country they’ve created something of a monopoly, or a ‘blocking’ move.

Again, just my thoughts. To any one who still thinks it’s envy, sour grapes or anything similar can I offer that if I really felt this way I’d be running to the papers, not archiseek. I’m putting the points here because I feel I’m talking to people who have a genuine interest in development matters in Cork. I’m not going to change anything about the result, but I might be able to provide some others with a better insight into things.

Radioactiveman – There should be 3 brief attachments. Hope they explain things a little better

Wasn’t that the same plan that was mentioned during the recent An Bord Pleanala hearings regarding the compulsary purchase order of the Showgrounds? As far as I was aware, it was put forward as a reason not to allow the CPO to go through. Although i cant remember a waterpark in that plan.

**Edit**

From ‘Developments in Cork’ Thread (16th March 2007):

And a reply from theblimp, when asked who was behind the venture (16th March 2007):
“No, not HH – it was a new grouping that were going to do it by way of some kind of arrangement with MAS – hence the inclusion of a MAS structure on site. Perhaps the fact that it wasn’t one of the ‘established few’ worked against them? I do know, however, that a LOT of work had been done on it. Architects were london-based and there were/are proprietary rights over the roof design which gave it significant advantages over traditional methods”

So, while not having any direct relationship with MAS, it would have clearly been to this groups advantage had Showgrounds stayed in MAS control rather than reverting back to CCC. With MAS’ track record, can you blame CCC for being weary of thiese plans at the ABP hearings?
And then to see a warmed up version, without the MAS arena, but including a waterpark being proposed, must have raised a few eyebrows. How much research had been done on the need/demand for a waterpark in the City?

@Leesider wrote:

I am afraid to say we would be waiting a long long time for any plan with the municipal stadium to go through

Which is a crying shame, since it’s the one key ambition that most of us have for the docklands. A modern, municipal stadium which could be used by Cork GAA, Cork City and Munster (for big ties which won’t fit even in the new Thomond) could use.

I find it a tad ironic that the council object to the showgrounds being so under-used and underdeveloped; while Pairc Ui Chaoimh is an sadly under-used eyesore yet they’re going to great lengths to accommodate them. But, if the stadium remains GAA only, it will continue to be under-used surely?

@theblimp wrote:

Radioactiveman – probably very similar, we’ve been working on this for quite a while now. We kept our heads down during the CPO as we didn’t wish to be involved in the process, but it is possible that an early version of our plans for the site were utilised by the Munster Agricultural Society to show that there was in fact some movement on the site.

Thanks for the images and clarification blimp.

In the same vein, at the time of the ABP hearings,
(a) had any formal agreement (or indeed negotiations) been entered into between MAS and this new grouping?
(b) had the grouping given permission for MAS to use this plan during the hearings?

Just to add my tuppence worth. theBlimp’s plan looks great but given they don’t own the land and given Frank Murphy’s continued presence on this earth you can’t blame the Council for having doubts about short term deliverability. I think the Howard plan is good enough and hopefully the other components of the theBlimp’s plan will follow in time.

I couldn’t agree more with the posts about Pairc Ui Caoimh. It is every bit as underused (and every bit as much an eyesore) as the Showgrounds. Council should buy it off the GAA and make it a municipal venue. Alternatively facilitate the GAA expansion if they propose a proper upgrade / rebuild but STRICTLY on the basis that they open it up a la Croke Park (ie. for good rent). Me doubts any of this will happen in Franky Baby’s time but then again if Ian Paisley and Martin McGuiness………….

Finally, whatever about the merits of the Howard plan, Monday night was a PR disaster. As a lawyer it offends my sense of due process. I must admit though that every now and again someone taking the bull by the horns to deliver something quickly is needed. Jury is out on Joe Gavin but at least he is not doing a Jack Higgins on it and talking as he did on his retirement about how someone should do something to revive the docklands…er…em.. that would have been your job Jack, wouldn’t it? In fairness to Joe, after the Dublin job passed him by he has really knuckled down instead of mopping into his beer. Pity he does all of this from his home in Galway mind!

I notice in theblimps earlier post that their concert hall had sloping seats from the stage upwards. What exactly are we standing on? Some kind of terraced thing? Surely thats dangerous at a rock concert. What the Howard Holdings proposal has is a layout very like the Marquee, with seating only at the further reaches and a large floor for standing on.

Does anyone know how much longer Emperor Gavin will remain as City Manager ? I understand that it is usually 7 years plus a possible 3 years extension, but I can’t remember when he started.