MK
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I thought so, but seeing as everyone was speaking of aluminium, I presumed my information was incorrect.
Which is it?Fion,
Cheap apartments are never a solution to the housing problem. Who said that it was???
In my opinion, the real housing crisis, i.e. the homeless & those below the poverty line, will never be the realm of the developer. What developer builds houses for those who cant afford them?
The National Building Agency have been designing and building some of the finest housing projects in Ireland for the past 30 years & still do today. The NBA provides homes for the homeless & the poverty stricken.Fion, as Im sure you know, all creativity that improves life and advances mankind can make money. What in the name of god do you think every single company in the world does. Is the motor car not an innovative machine, or the car, or the aeroplane?
Have you never heard of a wealthy inventor?
However, a developer will not nurture innovation, if it does not make a profit. Very few developers will give an architect the scope to try groundbreaking soical housing experiments on their time & money. The developers want a quick buck.Regulations are in place concerning minimum sizes of bedrooms etc., but the minimun and what is comfortable are two different things for the comfy educated middle classes who wish to buy the apartments.
Nobody should accept mediocrity, housing doesnt have to be mediocre, it just has to be taken out of the hands of the greedy developer.
In Post War Britain & Ireland(WW2), almost all architects and planners worked for their respective state bodies. It was a time when architects felt the common cause and wished to do the right thing. In this period, responsible, cost effective housing and planning was achieved. This can still happen today, if young designers & developers can stop paying lip service to good housing & design and instead forfeit their high wages to work for state bodies. Now we will see how easy it is to give up your wealth & chances of the quick buck.I think that there is a tendancy to quote figures from thin air in this debate.
RIAI dont even have professional recognition in this country, lest any power over the planning process, or building regs.
People need to live somewhere, and your own property will cost the same as renting.
Why do you expect cheap apartments?Dublin, & Ireland is growing at a tremendous rate & we are one of the worlds largest centres for the worlds fastest growing industry, computers.
To rent in Ireland doesnt usually make sense, as a long term lease is difficult to obtain.
Also, if a developer builds with the regulations, how can anyone tell make them do otherwise.
You cant create legislation to force people to build bigger bedrooms at the same cost, because you say so. Get real, you cant force someone into a non-profit enterprise.
If people want quality accomodation, they must be willing to pay the big money, QEDI agree, these apartments are merely a temporary infill.
The housing being built now corresponds to the baby boom of the lata 60s, early 70s.
As this demand for housing drops, & it will, the demand for these shoddily built apartments will diminish and a new better quality regeneration will supply the housing to those who no longer want low quality.
This turnaround is even becoming apparant today, so dont fret, you dont have to buy property if you dont want to.This forum isnt about you and your tastes, its about sub-standard buildings in Ireland.
The use of th term’nouveau riche’ implicitly implies lack of taste!
To discuss this topic rationally, we must broaden our perspective views, as Spinoza said, the best perspective is from eternity.
One more thing, KMarx was a socialist, classifying people was completely at odds to his ideals.Again you you nouveau riche as a term to describe these people. If you are in the market to buy property in Dublin, maybe you would realises that everyone needs a home, nouveau riche, gentry, working classes, proleteriets,artists, intellectuals, etc.etc, blah, blah.
It is naieve to condescend on one portion of society when we are all to blame.
Is jealousy the source of this grudge. Realise that people who earn money from nothing are far more accomplished than those whinging about them. New money, so what, maybe they lack ‘taste’, but they dont lack hard work and determination.
They problem lies with the developers, architects & planners. Dont blame the product on the consumer. I have spent many years in dindgy flats, but it was all I could get.
The same applies today. Prices are too high for any reasonable quality. Let us not question the lifestyles of others here. The issues are with the people who build the apartments, not those who buy them.
When a person buys a car and it turns out faulty, do you blame the consumer?, no, the manufacturer or the vendor? yes.
Wise up a little eh![This message has been edited by MK (edited 06 October 2000).]
KMarx,
Nouveau Riche is a term used in a class snobbery system, it is not an indication of stupidity.
The ‘nouveau riche’ deserve all the credit in the world from making it in the world when they once had nothing.
People need to live, and they need apartments to live in.
Would you rather live in an apartment and pay rent, or live in an apartment & pay the morgage, they both cost the same.
Bad housing represents the socio-economic crisis of our times, need outstrips demand, it does not represent stupidity. Stupid people do not have money to buy expensive but badly built apartments. The people who can afford apartments KNOW THE VALUE OF THEIR MONEY, and see the investment worth it.99% less energy is utilised when recycling aluminium, as opposed to the original extraction process from bauxite.
If Dublin corporation were to recycle all the aluminium cans from their bins & streets, this would be an achievable eco-friendly method of building the spire.
Its also quite symbolic.
A symbol of prosperity & beauty, rising up from the pile of rubbish which it is created fromNo more on this subject.
The Spire should be built.
Dara Holohan, may I congradulate you on your wise words, and you must be the new messiah of the planning world. We need more open minded, well educated Planners, not the territorial minded types.(Northside vs Southside, do intelligent people really care about that, I doubt it).
Anyway, let the spire be built as a symbol of these times. Do those against the spire want more Po Mo spew. We have all learn our lesson from postmodernism, & the lesson is ” NEVER TRY TO MAKE A PASTISCHE MOCKERY OF TIMES GONE BY, MOVE FORWARD”.Sorry GCC,
I reread & my mistake, indeed changes must be made from the top, we need our leadership to lead by example, but all we seem to get is the opposite. Most people see what our leaders do, and then know that by doing the exact opposite, they will be ethically correctSorry GCC,
I reread & my mistake, indeed changes must be made from the top, we need our leadership to lead by example, but all we seem to get is the opposite. Most people see what our leaders do, and then know that by doing the exact opposite, they will be ethically correctArchitectural isuues do not mean that you make a beeline for the mayline. Design is nearly all discussion and refinement of an idea. In solving the problem of traffic and polluted air, the magic pen will not suffice. Design is debate and discussion.
What do you think separates great designers from the mediocre. Its their ability to discuss problems concerning design on their deepest level, not gloss over the top.
In architecture, to solve difficult problems, all avenues must be explored.
A new bollard or bus shelter will not make a car free Dublin, maybe a prettier Dublin(which is a good thing), but not a car free Dublin. Bjorn, do young Sweedes like grimy Dublin like our Students like to visit Asia, go once, be amazed & invigorated by what you seen, then leave & return to your better, fairer world.
Grimy Dublin may be a romantic fantasy for 6 months, but something has to be done to clean it up. Large scale public opinion must be swayed, a government with the balls to make radical changes, even at their own political detriment, must do so, transport must be provided.
Also, I would like to apologise for the personal insults. I had a certain dread that the debate was going to turn very silly, & all that was being discussed in a constructive manner was going to be lost in a sea of nonsense, as has happened before on this site.Ray, your a drama queen, a sensationalist & I presume an all round panic merchant of a pessimestic diposition. I have no intention of getting involved in a mud(adobe, not adobi) slinging match with someone of questionable intellect. The title of this debate is ‘Car Free Cities’ & you seem a little off the mark. Cross pollination between subjects is always inevitable sometimes a great thing, but your alarmist nature takes it to the extreme. We are trying to discuss one aspect of urbanism & how to improve it, with respect to automotive traffic.
How pointless it is to discuss the possibility of car free cities whilst also pondering all other aspects of the worlds problems. Small steps in any better direction are a far greater addition to mankind than your fatalist nonsense.
Basically, grow up and try to contribute in a positive manner so we can all benefit, or else, **** offThe resentment is not unwarranted, if people cant get over their own selfish desires on this issue, then the change will never come about. Thank you for the brief synopsis of the Irish Automotive Post War Psychology.
So what!
Is our intellect so restrained that we are not aware of the damage and inconvenience we cause each other. People who buy cars are not (I hope not) inncoent children. If everyone is so aware of the damage caused to cities like LA of Athens, then why continue down that same path. It does not make any sense and that is irrefutable.
Also, Im not looking for the ever elusive Nirvana, no need to turn into a drama queen over that, all we need is a small concerted effort from everyone.
The government, we elect them, there not omnipotent beings, if they are incompetant, dont elect them again, write to you local TD or the relevant Minister, (for Transport par example). The government represent US, they reflect what we are willing to tolerate. Their power stems from what we let them have.The use of public transport does not automatically mean that you are banned from owning your Audi quattro. It does not mean that all those who want to help our enviornment can never drive again. What it does mean is that less fossil fuels will be used, air will be cleaner and the impending demise of our global biosphere will remain at bay a little longer. Could you please try and use a little more grey matter before ranting about the right to own a car. Earning the right to own a car, very commendable, how about the rights of our childern to live in beautiful clean cities, without car crazed rednecks insisting on bringing their inefficient expendable toys everywhere they go, burning fuel & poisoning our skies. Its quite strange that a nation that has been so dependant on the land for so many generations, now has no regard for that self same land.
Also, all those planning to write in about ineffective public transport or the absolute necessity of using their cars daily, please dont. There are always exceptions to the rule and compromises will have to be made by all if we are to achieve a better enviornment for all.We might be going a little of the point here in our mutual disregard for the above.
The question is, how can we reduce traffic in Dublin. Make it a pedestrian friendly city?
Will there be more cycle lanes?
Can a citywide ban of even and odd registration No.s on every other day be implemented.
Can we teach our young go-getters to respect the enviornment & each other?
Is it possible for us (anyone who gives a damn) to improve our cities & the air we breathe. I dont want to hear verbal masturbation, just constructive & possible suggestions to a better urban enviornment.The original is dead & gone.
This pastishe mock up is pointless. Its now some form of directionless arch. It seems as if it has been landed from Jupiter beside the new apartment building. This is a prime example of how the old has been decontextualised by the new. Money badly spentI also made a quick visit to p45.com, what a bunch of shitwits. Immature, cocieted and ill educated. These are the type of people I have aspired not to be. They say they dont want to take the bus with the proletariats. They are the ****ing proles, the proles of 2000AD. Working for the ‘boss’, trying to get a raise, shafting collegues & all the time, making someone they dont even know, extremely rich. The only difference with these plonkers is that in 1984 (the book), the proles knew who they were, these guys dont realise they are.
