The Abbey Theatre – should it stay or should it go

Just heard that Sile De Valera, of the well known family, is considering three options relating to the Abbey Theatre.

Option one – minor refurbish
Option two – new theatre on a green field site.

Option three- demolish and rebuild on the same site.
It is said that she favours the latter!. Well that takes the biscuit as the site is too restrictive. Poor old Michael Scott, who fought Ernest Blyth to find that he would not move from the present site, leading to the present design which is so constricted. First the Ritz Cinema goes, next the Abbey. And Scott was an Abbey actor too.

There’s no point in redeveloping there unless they get the couple of building behind it. But then no doubt An Taisce will be shouting about vernacular buildings of Abbey Street.

Mind you, I’ve never been that impressed by the Abbey Theatre anyways. It’s a poor enough brick box by Ronnie Tallon.

I hear that they still have the facade of the original stacked up somewhere. If they need to build another auditorium thye could put it behind that, in an Ark-style design. But they should alter the brick box if necessary, because buildings are there to last, not to replace when they become slightly inconvient.

Is it true that originally, the Scott building was intended to occupy the whole block right down to the river and that the sites couldn’t be assembled or something?

How feasible would this be today – not necessarily at this site, but maybe further down river? Wouldn’t the National Theatre sit very nicely with the National Courts of Justice, the Corpo headquarters and the Custom House, as part of Dublin’s riverine frontispiece?!

I think it was Daithi Hanly who has the facade in his garden.

Yes there were plans to build two theatres for the Abbey with stages back to back, on an expanded site running out to the river. A removable wall would have allowed both to join together with the audience at either end. However site accumulating skills were not as developed then as they are now.

The original facade is in the garden of former Dublin City arcitect Daithi Hanly, who has been trying for many years to get it restored.

I must say that if the interior of the Abbey was better, more spacious and less cinema-like, then the poor exterior could be accepted. However, the whole thing is not at all what a National Theatre should be. It would be impressive if it was of the rank of a small independent theatre company or a town hall or municipal theatre, but as the country’s most important venue for staging Drama, it falls short of its players’ reputation.

Ive spent many pleasant, often memorable nights in the current Abbey & Peacock and would be slightly sad to see it go. But I would prefer that it was totally rebuilt on an enlarged site, for the sake of national pride and the fostering of Dramatic Arts. The current edifice seems to have no lasting architectural importance.

For viitors to this site who have not been to this building:

http://www.abbeytheatre.ie/images/history2.jpg
The Abbey as seen from the corner of Abbey St. looking down Marlborough St.

http://www.abbeytheatre.ie/images/abbeyplans.gif
Cross section plan from front to rear of building.

http://www.iued.uni-heidelberg.de/platform/ilr/images/01_abbey.jpg
Frontal view from Marlborough St.

http://www.abbeytheatre.ie/images/oldabbey.jpg
The old Abbey, before the 1951 inferno.

Style-wise is’nt it a pity that we are over a hundred years on from times when we could probably have something like Garnier’s notable opera house in Paris gracing the Liffey. Such imperial building styles of times then conveyed the sense of the ‘national’To rebuild the old Abbey today would be perhaps anachronistic and as it was such a small and modest building. Maybe as already said it’s old facade could be incorporated into a new design either on the exterior or interior…..how about putting it within a glass atrium. Sad to think that Scott had his chance and blew it.His product amounting to a featureless concrete block which dated badly. However we will probably get something resembling the new Project Art’s Theatre which is a fine modern building but would’nt evoke a sense of the ‘national’, especially when one thinks of Yeats, Lady Gregory, ‘republican rebellions’ etc…. and times of old and the grand. Now, that would be a challenge for an architect. (Come to think of it the national theatre in London on the banks of the Thames is a hideous 60’s mass too.)

Would this be the death knell for Michael Scott’s Abbey theatre? It was always a bit of a cost-paring brick box, but would it now be demolished?

Well if they do it why not build a landmark ‘state of the art’ high tech muti-purpose theatre and they could reconstruct the old original Abbey facade within a glass atrium. Sounds good?

It is not listed in the Dublin City Development plan (1999)

Yes the present building is awful but the wider sonsideration must be given to the fact that it is one less cultural institution on the Northside. Surely this will impact on the O’Connell Street renewal!

Its a pity that there wasn’t a site on O’Connell Street for it.

the irish times on saturday suggested that the calton site might be a possibility.

It seems their ‘designer mall’ plan isn’t working out so far

seems like a better plan than moving southside. I’d sacrifice the nice waterfront location for helping out the rejuvination of o’connell st.

Would be brilliant on the Carlton site, reusing that magnificent facade. It would also help add life to the street, theatre goers, people going to the bars in the theatre, and perhaps build one or two good restaurants in the development.

I know the Abbey has many proplems, but a relocation to the south of the river will be very unpopular. I have no sentimental attachment to the present site, but I want the Abbey to stay on the northside of the Liffey. The O’Connell St area badly needs a cultural revival to match the fine plans to rebuild the Street’s image; at the moment it is a mess of fast food places, tacky shops, and miserable commuters. This part of the city has rapidly deteriorated while the southside has flourished. This is why the Abbey must stay. It should be possible to make major modifications and increase space, even if it means completely rebuilding on the present site. Or a move to the old Carlton would be great. RTE radio’s arts programme recently featured a discussion about the move. One person interviewed talked about the undesirable elements in the Abbey St area, and the proplems she has getting there from the southside! Thus, will the move to the south be a triumph for D4 snobbery? I wonder.

Who the hell wants to wander away down to the Grand Canal Docks… they think they have problems with tickets sales now… wait until they move away down there…

o’connell street is the nations’s main street (as the corpo likes to tell us) therefore the national theatre should be on it

Maybe then they should stay at the present site (but that is not to heed what B..B..Bertie said ……..man of cultural opinion …….me arse!)
Demolish that present pile and rebuild anew!

Or on the other hand if one considers that the present site is quite small and inadequate perhaps it would be a good idea to move to a new location as suggested.
A new high tech state of the art facility could be built overlooking the Liffey …..a landmark for Dublin city evoking the likes of the Sydney Opera House.
To construct or redesign a new theatre on the present site would be constricted by height and form limitations….. whereas a new spacious site down the docks would offer endless limitations. Think if the likes of the internationally renowned architect Frank Ghery (whom we discussed before)were to design the new theatre….what a plus for Dublin.
By the way the new proposed location is not that far from the city centre either, the city’s core is not that big and once we have a proper transport service.
Besides what has the present site to offer besides sentimental memories and an atrocious building designed by Scott which dates from 1966, (the original building was very small too ‘hence the fire’ ). The old ‘Abbey’ of Casey, Yeats and Co exists in name alone.
To add B..B.. Bertie Ahern ‘man of culture me arse’ should stop uttering his ‘pandering to the joe soap public’ vote catching remarks. As for Sile de Valera she seems more comfortable amongst the bogs.
The national theatre is for all the people of the nation.

[This message has been edited by GregF (edited 14 February 2001).]

This is good news.

Dublin Corporation has made a Compulsory Purchase Order for the former Carlton Cinema in Upper O’Connell Street, an adjoining site that has been derelict since the Pope’s visit to Ireland in 1979 and other properties in the vicinity. This long-threatened action is being taken following the failure of the Carlton Group to proceed with plans for a major shopping and entertainment centre for which planning permission was granted by An Bord Pleanála in August 1999. One of the most intriguing possibilities for this pivotal site is that the Abbey Theatre might relocate there.

Ah ‘Jasus’ will they forever do something with this site…………….how long do they need…..It’s a prime location…..what a fiasco!

Let’s hope then that they’ll do a good job designing this one…… so as it will not have to be replaced in another 36 years time….as like the present disaster. €100 million is a generous amount to build something decent. And let’s hope it is of a generous scale…less of that small pokey architecture, with low ceilings, endless walls and corridors and no light…..trademarks of Irish 20th century architecture.

The site is to be the same size and believe that the size of the floor is the major problem with the existing theatre.

The same size! ….well then it will not succeed…unless it will be like the Tardis.
The idea of acquiring surrounding sites for space should be considered too….a Liffey frontage sounds appealing.

“The decision does not preclude any additional sites being purchased to extend the theatre further. However, this would involve negotiating with more than 20 landowners.”

Also a river frontage would require building over Old Abbey Street above ground level or closing the Right of Way.

Oh dear ….we will have another small mediocre theatre to look forward too…they’ll no doubt build upward however…cramming it into the small site.

Heard somthing about a new theatre on the quays (Ormond quay i think) last night on the radio. Does anybody know anything about it?

Sile De Valera was on the 6-1 news tonight – it seems herself and Bertie wanted it to remain where it is from the beginning- although with the O’Connell Street Plaza gettting closer on the horizon the old Carlton just seems like the perfect location – a vast site that would have drawn some Southside luvie money across the river…it was mentioned they were “offered” a site in the docklands…anyone know exactly where? The current location is a greasy side street – surely the sentimental attachments went with the original building ..

Originally posted by pvdz:
Heard somthing about a new theatre on the quays (Ormond quay i think) last night on the radio. Does anybody know anything about it?

A major new Liffeyside development is on the cards for Dublin 1 – complete with a new theatre/bar at basement level. Apart from the basement theatre, the scheme will includes a variety of bars, restaurants, bistros, lounges and dancing area with offices overhead. The site presently operates as Murphy’s Laughter Lounge and is fondly remembered by the older generation as the site of the Corinthian Cinema.
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=51&si=693413&issue_id=6919

Frank McDonald has a good write up today in the Irish Times about the potential of having the Abbey moved to the former Carlton Cinema site on O’Connell Street.With the ammount of land available here, Art Deco facade and all, it sounds ideal for a spacious ample theatre.
Too bad it’s not the case …..more then a case of a missed opportunity.

[This message has been edited by GregF (edited 21 February 2002).]

Regarding the use of the Carlton.

If I recall correctly the Carlton has negligible dressing rooms, no fly tower and only a very shallow stage. It might be possible to build backwad, leaving the auditorium, but I suspect that the rear wall runs up to the lane, leaving no space to push back the stage.(That is unless the lane goes too).

In all the times I was there I do not recall ever leaving at the back of the cinema, from the exits on either side of the screen, -which seem to have been true emergency exits. I vaguely recall a gents toilet behind the screen on the right, if my memory does not play tricks, but I think I am correct in saying the space beyind the screen is characteristically shallow, as in all purpose built cinemas.

It does have a very interesting art deco decorative panels on each side of the screen. Again these should be preserved. I assume they are still in place.

re: art deco decorative panels
Were they original DC3? As the cinema was subdivided into four, I assume they were removed from other parts of the building and inserted as decor? As I remember it,the interiors were fairly bland like the current Savoy.

…..the adjacent derelict site, the former Dublin County Council offices and Dr. Quirkey’s Emporium are to be included too which would yield ample space….presumbably only the facade of the Carlton would be retained…..leaving all of this space to be redeveloped…..but alas not.

Why retain the facade of the Carlton at all? Surely It would be better to start from scratch. On a site that big with such an extensive street frontage on the main street of Dublin you could make an enormous impact. The Abbey should go for something very distinctive and create a landmark for Upper O’Connell St. in the same way that the GPO or Clearys are landmark buildings for the lower part of the street. Nice and all as the Carlton is it’s a little anonymous. We should be able to include our National Theatre on the same list of civic buildings as the Custom House, the Bank of Ireland, Trinity College etc.

I wonder how wise it would be to have such an elongated facade on O Connell St.I do not believe it would help the scale of the street.

The street frontage of the adjoining site is long enough, to create a building of drama, even if it only is a shopping centre.

I also believe there is a certain irony in seeing drama, in such an undramatic, and as JOF put it, anonymous building. I do not really belive there is anything wrong with it. It could not possibly be any more ‘ananymous’ than the Abbey’s current premises.

If the facade was stripped of all the ‘gunk’ (signs windows, canopy etc.) and was treated as a ‘blank’ canvas, I belive the building could really shine.

re: art deco decorative panels
Were they original DC3?

Yes.
You can see what they looked like in the Irish Arts Review 1998 p173.
This is an article by E Mc Aulay.

I believe they are still there but have no recent information.

So the Abbey Theatre is to be rebuilt. E100 million is to be spend on it’s reconstruction which will be up to 11 storeys high. (I can see the objections already, the Green Party are no doubt preparing a dossier.)
Let’s hope they get a big international name in to do the job; Norman Foster, Frank Ghery, Daniel Leibeskind or whoever….but I hope they just don’t settle for Scott Tallon Walker & Co.
Was’nt that 60’s featureless pile really atrocious by Scott and his associates…..the portico that was added in the 80’s however gave it some redemption, but I’m glad to see it go. Hopefully the new design will address the street better and will lead to the rejuvenation of this part of the city which is filled with nothing but tawdry looking establishments and winos. A few good auld pubs in the area however.

What wont happen – the redevelopment itself or SWT getting their mitts on it?
I must admit I am a bit sceptical of any prestige public projects going throug under the present regime in light of Bertie Bowl and Metro.

oooh the cynicism…. but I suspect you are right Paul.

The government could get Kellogs to sponsor STW for one of their cereal boxes…

public-private partnership in action!

“Let’s hope they get a big international name in to do the job; Norman Foster, Frank Ghery, Daniel Leibeskind or whoever….but I hope they just don’t settle for Scott Tallon Walker & Co. “

This thread should read “Save the City”, and perhaps we might avoid the disasterous move to elect to chose an architect via reputation rather than the response. This is why architectural competition is so important. Instead of inflated egotistic creations we might actually recieve quality architecture and perhaps surprising architecture. How will be engender an architectural culture here if we automaticaly believe that only an international signature architect will do.

Similarily limited competitions are equally problematic since it tends towards the same problem indicated above, slightly wider pool.

Obviously this does not mitigate against the problems of a poor or uninformed jury.

The reason i raise the probelm of the thread title relates to the possibility of retainign the existing site.

Both the choice of an architectural response as well as site should be thought of in relation to the city as a whole. Where should the abbey be and how it relates to the matrix of urban spaces around it is vitally important. The axis along the liffey where a series of cultural artifacts are linked is perhaps the best solution for the whole city, but to decide upon the issue soley from a property perspective will be damaging ot the potential of the national theatre.

I would be all on for extending to the waterfront too, as opposed to the Carlton, just to spread the developments around a bit.

If they did the right job, they could substantially narrow Eden Quay, which I think they should do anyway, and put in more plazas-pedestrian stuff, and have a fantastic riverside main front to the building.

I would actually have double main entrances to attract people from both sides. There is no reason why it couldn’t be some sort of world class theatre/workshop/drama museum/living -space complex that is another must-see part of coming to or living in dublin…

My sugestion is sell off the Abbey brick by brick, like London Bridge, to somewhere in America, like Las Vegas or Atlantic City. Move the Abbey Company over there too, save the Americans the trouble of trying to squeeze into Lr Abbey Street. Free up the site for another new bridge across the Liffey.

Start with a new theatre on a greenfield site, without the intellectual baggage and faded reputation of the Abbey. Indeed a good ready cash bid might get the RSC to take on a residency.

So dc3 abandon the heritage of the National Theatre – explain to me why this is a good idea? I assume once again this is a piss-take

Why are the usual (foster, leibeskind, Gerhy et al) trotted out as lets have one of their signiture buildings? Could we have something new, not just something from the cv of the global architectural royalty?

The guy who bought London Bridge thought he was buying Tower Bridge – i.e. the one everyone calls London Bridge, but isn’t…
So maybe we could sell off another theatre brick by brick (Andrews Lane perhaps – you can’t even see it from any street anyway!) hoping the Americans wouldn’t notice.