Smithfield, Dublin

Its an interesting idea but will the chimney take the weight and how will one get up?

A similar idea was mooted a few years back to save the cooling tower in Tullamore, but in this case the chimney was to have a glass top for veiwing and painted to look like a pint of Guinness.

As a former site engineer at Smithfield I can tell you that, yes, there’s going to be a viewing platform on top of that chimney. It’ll be all glass, and there will be a lift to get to the top. The view must be spectacular up there, but knowing who’s building it I wouldn’t risk my life going up……

Duq

I work quite close to the new square at Smithfield, and I am not impressed. I think it should stretch back to Blackhall place, creating a real plaza and a remarkable vista. Dublin doesn’t have a real plaza, and is in dire need of one. Take a walk around the area, and particularly around the corner to Blackhall, and you’ll see what I mean.

Nice idea, but you’re really talking about a form of ethnic cleansing, moving an entire community elsewhere. Neither fair nor tolerable in this day and age. A hundred years ago or more, it would have been easy.

Scale wise, it would be horrific, the length os Smithfield stretching as far as the Law Society would be huge, worthy of a militaristic regime.

The old photos of Blackhall Place with the two terraces either side framing the Law Society are a real eye opener – they led the space scale and a certain dignity which is now all gone.

[This message has been edited by Paul Clerkin (edited 29 April 2000).]

I think that both of you are making valid points as I too feel that Dublin needs a plaza or central gathering area. Central
Bank was one for the youth of Dublin but was considered by the employees of the building to be hazardous. Now the young people attempt to gather in other sqaures in Temple Bar that are designed almost purely for the tourist trade (squares surrounded by expensive shops and restaurants that young people cant afford to). In other cities like Civic Centre in San Fransisco or the Fontana di Trevie in Rome (well from there to the icecream shop on the corner of one of the adjoining streets!!).

Smithfield would be perhaps an ideal location for a meeting area but perhaps it would do would take away the areas identity and historical relenvence in Dublin.

What about the finest public space of them all in Dublin – College Green? A parliament building and a university facing one another across a grand, chaotic, ordered, kind of multi-symmetrical space is almost Hellenic, yet Georgian… and higgledy-piggledy.

And what do we do with it? Send 40,000 cars a day through it. Will I be 10 years buried before this space is treated with anything more than contempt? Does anyone out there realise the importance of this space? It is Dublin’s drawing room.

I have to say i agree about College Green, it is a fine space and has great potential, but unfortunately has all that bloody traffic rushing through it every day. The fact that College Green is one of the cities main arteries means that even a reduction in the number of traffic lanes is highly unlikely. By the way, those trees around Grattan’s statue are a big mistake, they cover up half of trinity college, the statue itself and serve only to clutter up the whole space (not that i have anything against trees of course, just put them in the right place!)

[This message has been edited by Peter FitzPatrick (edited 03 May 2000).]

I think that the so called finest public space that you are talking about is not actually a fine sapce. It is the buildings around College Green that make it so prominant. It will not be until they make the centre of Dublin completly pedestrianised that they would be able to make this area a meeting square. Dame Street and West Morland Street are two of the busiest roads in the city centre and to try to pedestrianise this area would be near impossible. The disruption that it would cause around the rest of the city would be incredible. The road network in Dublin is not near satisfactory. Definitly a jumble of interconnecting routes leading everywhere!!
In my opinion, if it was possible it would be great to make at least some of the area car free giving inhabitants and visitors to the city a haven free of polution, both chemical and noise, and make it a much more pleasent place to be. If you are interested in fighting the domination of cars in cities, you might be interested in a march that is happening on the 27th of May. if you want more information Ill mail it to you! Fight for the right for our feet to use the streets again!!!!

I remember reading a nutty idea in the late 1980’s in the Irish Independant Property section about how they were going to put the roads into tunnels under College Green and pedestrianising the area. I personaly think that if the public transport infrastructure was in place that there shouldn’t be a need for any traffic (except buses taxis and emergency vehicles) between the canals in Dublin, but because the Government (local and national) get ferried in by Chauffer driven Merc (except for the occasional photo opportunity) there is no incentive for them to do so. Also the fact that they listen to the whinging car lobby all the time. The one thing I noticed in London was when you pressed the button to cross the road the lights changed to suit you almost instantly whether it was in the “city” or the main shopping areas, why we have to wait up to 110 seconds to cross each side of college green is ludicrous.

Rory W

Oh yeah, if we had Smithfield turned into a square as far as the law society it would look bloody awful, you can almost see the tanks and the pictures of Chairman Mao…..

I definitely think College Green should be made a pedestrian space. The Bank of Ireland and Trinity College West front are very important buildings, but their gravity cannot be appreciated. This could be a popular tourist space. I think access from Dame Street could be a good idea, so without encouraging through traffic, the area stay bustling.
As for Blackhall Place, I can’t say I know the area too well, but I know the Law Society headquarters and that deserves more attention. What happened with the Central Bank was a disgrace, but that’s what happens when you have so many nightclubs nearby.

Smithfield should have been extended to the river….. removing one apartment block would have sorted that….

Re: Smithfield

Too much talk about extending and increasing the overall area of Smithfield!!.

The real problem here is that the works carried out to date eg; monumental lighting standards, subdivision of the public square by a myriad of bollards and slip roads not to mention the poor standard of finish (eg; galvanised folded plate on the standards and hard cement grouting to the re-laid cobbles) have caused a disimprovement in what was a very intact urban space, not to mention the removal of horse troughs without replacement.

I live and work in a building overlooking the square and am not at all happy that the ‘revitalised’ square is all that its cracked up to be.

Granted the intentions of all concerned were good but the result are all too typical of the ‘architecturalisation’ of existing urban space. Resulting in monumental ‘pomp and splendour’which really achieves little.

However if you think that the footprint and lauout / design of the elements within the square are the only problem think again.

Horan Keoghan Ryan and Simon J Kelly architects have submitted planning applications fro two of the the most aggressively overscaled and ill conceived schemes to have been seen in the centre city for the west side of the square, elements include a 24 storey tower, an eight / nine storey ‘museum’ six, seven and eight storey apartment blocks, a 10 storey office building.

Overall impact upon the square, not to mention the skyline of the city will be disastrous, overshadowing of the square will occur for most of the day from mid afternoon, the three storey scale of Queen street will be overwhelmed and the existing Heritage Homes Distillery development on he opposite side of the square will be of ‘toytown’ scale by comparison.

If you want to see a really ‘greedy’ schem and weep, don’t miss this one!!!.

Large civic spaces, can work!!!
Travelling throughout the South of France, I was fortunate enough to see beautiful, well planned towns. French planners have a vision, a grand design. Why not think bold in Dublin.
Smithfield square could extend to the Law society. I’m sure our French couterparts wouldn’t be afraid of such a challenge.

The trick is to engage the human element and to enable access. e.g. (Underground carparking beneth the square; Improved public transport; Walkways and lighting to the market areas; Tax incentives to open retail and entertainment outlets. Clustering of activities.

Why not copy the French?

The Smithfield Plaza design won a shared first prize in the competion held for “European Public Urban Space”. The competition is organized by the Centre de Cultura Contemporània de Barcelona and L’Institut Francais d’Architecture; and the prize-ceremony is to-day in Barcelona. For more information go to http://www.cccb.org/ingles/cccb.htm and see the other winning project (from Spain) and the honorable mention project also from Spain.

Any images of new scheme on other side of square

Actually I witnessed a design flaw last saturday night… there was a small fire opposite the Smithfield Village development, but the fire brigade couldnt get their engines to that side of the plaze and had to run hoses across the entire width of the square…. pretty poor

Smithfield now is perhaps sparse and minimalistic but come on it is a vast improvement on what was there before.It is a public urban space so it’s hard landscaping deserves to be somewhat grandiose with a hint of OTT. When the Duffy Bros side is redeveloped it will enclose it’s ‘openess’ Substantial building height is required here in relation to the width of the square.When the whole scheme is finished the area will settle down and with the addition of some appropriate street furniture, sculpture etc… and the influx of people the ‘Red Square’ feel will soon dissappear.To add, but why replace the anachronistic horse troughs especially if they consisted of mere concrete baths…. would’nt they be somewhat misplaced. Oh maybe they could be planted with flowers by the hanging basket society… a sculpture of a horse by a competent artist could be more apt to sum up it’s social history.

Just plodding through there this morning and saw that the locals had ‘Smithfield Market Community say NO to High Rise’ notices in their windows. Here we go again. How is it that greater architectural issues can now be dictated by people who stick multicoloured crazy paving on the front of their homes, install garish PVC mock Georgian windows, erect these things called ‘Porches’ on the front of their doorstep and usually have a front garden that constitutes weeds or blanket tarmacadam and all en mass. Now come on we all know the auld story of ah! but they’re the true Dubs, the working class…. and all that, but plainly speaking the notion of ‘Taste’ is seriously lacking.It made sound snobbish I know, and not too PC, but there is an element of truth there. It was blinkered ignorant viewpoints that got inner city Dublin into such an impoverished mess years ago. Let’s reverse that please and make ‘Civics’ a serious part of our education today, so that architectural issues can be validly argued about by everyone, and not the usual scenario of the aimless flock been led by the lost shepherd. This is after all the information age, there are libraries their for everyone. Also, I wonder are the corpo houses there to get a make-over as they look a bit of an eyesore; the ‘scorched earth’ brick is too dark, looks awful and looks cheap, typical of Dublin Corporation inner city housing of one time…. but God bless ’em, sure was’nt that all they could muster under the guidence of Frank Feeley.

I havent noticed those posters, but then I’m not paying much attention at the moment.

Now that I live down there, I still think the Plaza design is pretty poor!

Have you ever payed it much attention? Smithfield I remember was once just a car park before with a few trees and uneven cobble stones… nothing special! Dotted here and there were ramshackle fruit markets and it once starred in a film with Richard Burton as the Berlin Wall in ‘The Spy who came in from the Cold’ It held a horse fayre every Sunday of every month that had every ‘rag taggle gypsio’ character type selling any auld well past it mistreated nag. The ISPCA had many instances of grossly mistreated horses and evidence of unjustifid cruelty. Had you visited you would have noticed and felt the sinister atmosphere of shady deals. OK for the Middle Ages but not 2000 AD. It is currently unfinished, work is in progress,but however when complete it will be as popular as Temple Bar and no one will once think of ‘it’s poor design’ or bleak feel. Too drunk probably!

Yes I have to agree, If the locals had their way down there in Smithfield we would have more of the same Vera Duckworth style housing. So I hope for everybodys sake the locals don`t get their way on this one.

Amusing, to say the least to read the comments regarding ‘locals’ in respect of their quite legitimate objection to the proposed developments on the west side of the square.

I happen to be one of those locals who will have to live with the consequences of development on the west side of the square and as a practising architect with ‘some’ understanding of design and urbanism I think that their vision of the consequences of this development is far more prescient than that of the majority of commentators on this web page.

As to vera duckworth design standards and crazy paved cladding, would anyone care to point out to me the offending dwelling. I’ve been living here for six years and I’ve never seen anything of the kind, so, some of the corporation houses sport pvc tudorbethan sashes, certainly no more offensive, and in my humble opinion a lot more harmless than a double block of eight, nine, ten and twenty three stories.

Now I have no doubt that some twit will become offended that I am basically saying “I’m an architect, as a result I know better than you poor ignorant laymen and I believe the west side development to be a dreadful mistake” (incidentally this is actually pretty much what I am thinking upon reading this web page) however bear in mind that this is exactly the kind of nonsense that I am at present reading on this page from the dafter commentators vis a vis their superior knowledge re: design and urbanism as opposed to that of some very nice, well meaning and community spirited people who happen to be my neighbours.

In short, talk nonsense if you wish, but for heavens sakes cut out the snobbery!!!!!.

Firstly,

I think it is too early to judge the merits or not of the Smithfield Plaza ensemble. They shouldn’t have had the grand opening so soon after its initial completion because I think peoples’ expectations of this newly created area are a little high. So far, its all a little dull and grey. But it could change. The view from the Chimney shows that there’s little in the immediate area to hold peoples’ interest unless they live there or are interested in Whiskey distilling. I think it is petentially a very pleasant residential area; for the newly arrived ‘gentry’ that are buying the fancy apartments. Some civic ocassions could conceivably be given a good stage by Smithfield. Otherwise, its too far from the really central parts of the city, where we should be first concentrating regeneration project [from a civic perspective].

Secondly, I think the locals are enjoying the ability to object about “something” – high rise in this case. Its natural for a community to want a degree of power. They have been consulted little thus far about Smithfield. However, I dont think the planners are thinking of setting high rise precedants in the area. The one tower that is planned is very much a landmark – and will only have one apartment on each floor. I think they wont succeed in halting this. It is far too pretty and intrudes on very few.

Thirdly, College Green should be dug up, tunnels laid, and then totally pedestrianised. It would undoubtedly become the heart of Dublin and would complement O’Connell Street on the one hand and Stephens Green on the other.

JK, are you terrified of the use of height in building schemes? Eight or nine storeys is the norm for a European city standard.The square is wide enough for such. One sees such commonly abroad. It will not become a canyon. The proposed new tower will act as a ‘marker’ for Smithfield. Anyway what would you propose; more of the same ‘nice’ little corpo style houses,ZZZzzzzzz! all one and two storeys high dotted along.It’s the big time now. No more pokey little ‘builder’ designed buildings. It looks like that the years of neglect and poverty have played havoc on the locals psyche. Such changes are too radical to cope with. The decades of dereliction have all of a sudden gave way to the proliferation of brand new appartment schemes springing up, bringing people back into the city whether they’d be yuppies,guppies, students etc….. but the inner city locals have in some way developed a seige mentality and want to protect their little ‘ghettos’ This is manifested in part on the attacks on tourists and foreigners and the ‘keep out’ syndrome. But what must be understood is that Dublin city is public property belonging to all.It must develop in a ‘city’ like way and to develop it’s international image.If not it will remain a provincial town and remain looking like one too. Locals interests are important of course but in every instance a handful of people should not hinder what is best for the whole of the city’s interest. Everybody is jumping on the band wagon now rejecting building schemes just because of height. The demolition balls will always swing to level such, as in the past.

Hi JK, the Smithfield design shared first prize in international competion….that can’t be bad despite the homegrown criticism. You’re an architect, done anything of note you’d care to mention.

Indeed true, the years of poverty, neglect and isolation have produced a somewhat under seige mentality in people in these cases with a willingness to hang on to what little they have,no matter how blighted,and opposed to change which could be for the better in most circumstances. The Irish mentality believing that wealth is bad and poverty is good,still prevails.

The problem with any kind of civic development in Dublin does not lie with the architects or with the planners. It is the mentality of Dublin as a city. If a local residential group does not want development in their existing community, then nothing will happen. Its like a cancerous tumour being left on the body because it doesnt want to go. I am not calling impoverished people a cancer, I am merely stating that decisions should be made for made for the sake of the whole city. That is 100 percent pro-democracy. A local residential group should not have the power to undermine the potential amenity of a whole city. If we want Smithfield to be increased or the Calatrava bridges to be built, then it is time that decisions are made by intelligent educated people, to benefit the whole city and not by whinging Councillers with their own perverse agendas.Dublin is dying on its feet because of mob rule.

P.S. Should a forum be set up for the demonisation of Mary MacAlese. When I saw the elevation of her ‘statly residence’ I was ill. Rory Quinn, do something for the love of god. Were an international discrace.

True, true, very true, one can mention too that not only is one of Calatrava’s splendid bridges in jeopardy but the whole O’Connell Street redevelopment plan also, due to a ‘minorities ‘ objection over traffic flow. Why live in a bleedin city if you don’t want put up with city life and the hustle and bustle that goes with it.

http://www.independent.ie/2000/249/d10c.shtml

DUBLIN County Council’s Central Area committee
last night condemned the “high-handed” behaviour of
the city manager in granting planning permission to a
£126m development in the Smithfield area.

An emergency motion agreed last night said the
manager should have addressed the serious concerns
expressed by the local community and councillors at
the Central Area Committee and the HARP
monitoring committee. He also failed to await the
outcome of the Urban Height and Density study
which is due to report shortly.

Well that’s just so predictable (as No Nonsense Brigade has already stated). See Ciaran Cuffe is in there objecting again, the bollocks, he’s just canvassing for votes.Imagine a £120 million development refused for one of the most deprived areas of the city; a case of cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face. Ah! **** them I say, build hundreds of Vera Duckworth style social housing, sure that will pass the planning board no hassle, and the area will always be an unaspiring slum. I’m off to live in Paris. I pity poor city manager John Fitzgerald what a great man of vision, too bad he has no support.

Here’a what part of the report said , ‘The Markets Area Community Resource Organisation described the planned development as “highly intrusive visually” adding that it would “seriously injure the
residential, community and visual amenity of this historic part of the city”. Historic ? there is hardly anything historic left standing, community and visual amenity? the place as it stands now is one huge eyesore, residential? a handful of homes. This is ludicrous! A case of beggars being choosers.

But no one in government, local or national will ever stand up to these people. Its like those people that delay the demolition of tower blocks by staying put. No one ever stands up to them.

As Spock said in Star Trek 2 “the needs of the few outnumber the needs of the many”.

Rory W

Sorry that was “the needs of the many out number the needs of the few”.

Hey long day at work!!

Rory W

In response to JK I wish he would step into the 21st century and wake up to what good architecture is all about. This development will liven up a city which otherwise has a bland skyline. Look at Munich for example where blocks of five and six storey bildings are broken up by well designed taller buildings of 10-20 storeys this makes for a very exciting mix.

Does anybody have any pictures of the new development?? or have the small minded ‘locals’ burnt every existing picture…i thought it was odd that there was no picture included with an article on the development in todays indo. The new development sounds great, would be nice if we could see what its going to look like though!!

Interesting comments !!, however the point remains that no one on this web page has given a coherent or intelligent critique stating why this development should be allowed to proceed.

Planning permission should not be granted just because a developer is willing to spend a lot of money (and the sums we are talking about are HUGE!) that would give rise to a situation where planning permissions would be granted to the highest bidder.

Secondly, and once again, some of the pre-conceptions arising on this page about the locals are, frankly, astounding. Crime is minimal in the area, the majority of people in the area are in employment and are certainly not ignorant, (is it ignorant to take an interest in your city, to monitor planning applications, to visit the planning desk daily, to learn how to read plans and technical drawings, to come to grips with the language of density, development plans, high rise studies et al). I wonder how many of the contributors to this web page have taken the same trouble in order to familiarise themselves with this development.

As to the notion of locals being anti development, that is risible. For years local community groups have been lobbying Dublin Corporation for the implementation of the masterplan which eventually became the HARP Plan.

Why should Dublin follow the model and pattern of development of Munich, Frankfurt, New York, Shanghai and whatever city is demolishing more and building higher, faster and more densely than its rivals, that way lies dereliction, infrastructural disaster and cities which are uninhabitable.

As to the lack of ‘historic’ fabric. Has anybody actually looked at an OS map, development plan, or even taken a good walk around the area???. If they had they would notice a strong core of untidy, gap toothed but still intact 18th century Dublin. 1 church dating from the 10th century, three 18th century churches, an entire 18th century asylum by Francis Johnson, an 18th century fever hospital by the same architect, four public houses originally taverns dating from the 17th 18th and 19th centuries, the 1770’s Blew Coat School, a market square dating from 1640, a half intact 1640’s main Street (Queen Street) a large number of list 1 and 2 18th century houses, a high street (stoneybatter) dating from the 9th century – the list goes on!!

As to my own credentials, would two Special Mentions in the AAi’s the same number in he RIAI’s, four magazine profiles a slew of serious and I should add modern built work convince???

Take the trouble to find out about the people and area. I get the strong impression that the ignorance lies on the side of soem of the web site commentators supporting this development for the vaguest of reasons.

And once again, without re-iterating, cut out the neo fascistic drivel. Learn to look, analyse, consider and think. Architecture is not about surface and height. It is about the shaping of the built environment. Think long and hard about a development of this height made up largely of warren like rabbit hutch apartments, a few super pubs, a budget hotel and some dodgy office useage, all of such enormity that even the developers admit that it would overshadow most of Smithfield for the greater part of the year. This type of development does no credit to any city – if you want to look at the consequences of this type of thing look at Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow. Smithfield needs development on its west side, but not these developments.

And finally, where were you all 7 years ago when this community forced Dublin Corporation to look into the revitalisation of Smithfield, insisted upon the preparation of a masterplan, demanded proper policing, safe street lighting, organised play areas and instituted one of the most sucessful adult education courses in the inner city.

Less nonsense PLEASE, and more intelligent debate. Persuade me that you are right, give reasons for your arguments – In short grow up!!!

There was no forum or net 7 years ago. Im not a bigot & I doubt many on this page are. I for one, do not dispute the fact for one moment that dodgy high rise hotels, apts etc. Should not be built. Yes these local residential groups have rallied together admirably. To what end ?. Dublin is a supposed municipal city. One decision should involve all, affect all. Yes I have dealt with groups of inner city people in the past & as idealistic as JK seems to be (he has the laurels to prove it, AAI or IFA, whoever he is affiliated with seems to think he’s hot stuff), the sometimes can be extremely resistant to change. The insular nature of these communities is due to a deep distrust of power and its abuse, and only through change can this cycle be broken. JK has a vast knowledge of inner city history. I dont, but in the spirit of all true Dubs (which Im not), I will debate loudly & in a beligerent and agressive manner about something into which I have little insight and absolutely no concrete facts. I’ll wander of the point of the initial debate and insult people & presume my insight is greater than theirs.

It’ll never happen, you know. They’re only playing games. Monopoly, for real.

The tall part of the scheme, the 23-storey apartment tower, is merely a stalking horse. It will never be built. Nobody could be mad enough – let alone ‘afford’ – to build an elaborate structural system so high and install lifts, escape stairs, etc, simply to support a single, ‘tiny’ apartment on each floor plate. Everyone knows that. Ask any engineer.

Dublin Corporation are merely trying to flush out the hustlers, by putting it up to them. When it comes to urban design and architecture, these guys only ever say: that’s nice – now, can we get some more? As sure as eggs are eggs, they’ll be back with a proposal to fatten the tower, or take it out entirely in return for an extra storey all over the site.

They’re trying to play the old ‘setting a new height precedent’ game. But those bad old days, when legalistic interpretations of the planning acts held more sway than design judgements, are fast coming to an end. The Corporation is getting ahead of the game and decisions are now being made on the basis of architectural and urban design criteria. That’s what all the references to Sienna and San Gimignano here are about. It’s not about height per se, no more than Ian Ritchies’s spike has any chance of setting a new height limit for city-centre developers to exploit.

Good on you, John Fitzgerald, for calling their bluff!

Hi JK, but you still have’nt stated what should replace the proposed scheme. What would you and the locals like to see there instead. Maybe your own architectural firm had proposed a plan which was refused just like that bloke Miceal O Nualain and the Monument of light debacle. I’ve seen the proposed plans and the design looks quite similar to contemporary schemes being built in Europe ie the Potsdamer Platz in Berlin. So what is wrong looking to European cities for examples; they seem to get it right in most cases. They have centries of experience in urban design. Any attempts by us Irish at such in the past have always been ham fisted. To look at what’s there now well McGarry Ni Eanigh attempts at reconstructing the urban square was quite noble and honest,and Fusano Properties are merely trying to evoke a 21st century version of the Piazza san Marco and St. Mark’s bell tower in Venice with their scheme which includes the 23 storey tower. I could bet you anything that the tower will be refused permission and the height of the scheme will be dramatically reduced. I bet too that a quite unimposing, unimpressive scheme with sub-urban qualities will be built and then all will be right with the world. The architect who can devise a plan to hide ‘shadows’ within city scapes will be a rich man. Oh by the way I happen to be from Smithfield, born and bred in the place, The Cobblestone and Bo Derrols are my locals,(maybe I’ve seen you there) and to add I think it’s great to see all this redevelopment, too bad the rest of my kind can’t see it that way. If you’d voice your opinion which is opposite to their’s you’d be shot down such is the cliques that exist.

What’s wrong with a few super pubs, a budget hotel, offices and appartments.No doubt there will be shops too. What do you want……? Would a 5 star Hilton Hotel be more appropriate, I doubt it in that area ,I suppose ‘super pubs’ will attract the yuppie drunks, the appartments and offices will bring about people and traffic congestion…. Oh yeah! the sun sets in the west so the shadows will be cast in the evening across the square, by then the area will be coming alive with the night life. Anyway, What do you want to see there? Please tell us JK…..

Leave poor JK alone.

Why is it that any plans for any kind of poxy high rise building in Dublin are immediately shot down by an taisce and scared locals as if the devil himself was the architect….the proposed building is not even that bloody tall, the square is large and can take the impact of the proposed building. Rounding such a large square with nothing but 4 story featureless crap would be awful. The proposed building is mildly radical and has already met with such extreme opposition no wonder nearly every new development in dublin is pathetically mediocre. As previously mentioned any shadows cast on to the square will have a small impact due to the sun setting in the west. Does everything built in dublin have to be so bloody boring….i am waiting to hear what jk suggests should be built on the west side of the square.

[This message has been edited by Peter FitzPatrick (edited 07 September 2000).]

OK, Colours to the Mast and all that!.

What I would LIKE to see happen on that particular site is:

A 5 storey scheme with the 5th floor recessed to form a long planted terrace at that level.

A decent sized new boulevard to link through to the Blue Coat School (the link proposed is extremely narrow and actually aligns at a cant towards Marmion Court Flats, such an axial link would finally give the Square a proper Civic relationship with one of the finest pieces of Architecture in the country.

Absolutely right about the tower, it is of course a ‘stalking horse’ however I would have no major problem with it provided that the design was more crystalline to take advantage of he light (did you know that the reason that Weichert used faceted polished steel on the Bow lane elevation to the Distillery project was to refract winter sunlight into shadowey Bow Lane? – works very well and glass would achieve an even better ecffect with the tower).

My wish list would also include the relocation of the Abbey theatre which needs a new home anyway, a third of the current underground parking provision which would in any case only succeed in drawing more traffic into the area, also a group of architects producing a unified composition (eg: the old lags such as Paul Keogh, Niall McCullogh, Valerie Mulvin etc, mixedin with a few of the younger more talented and dynamic crowd such – Grainne Hassett, Niall Mclaughlin etc) as opposed to the ‘hackitects’who have made such a greedy mess of this site.

As to hotels sure stick one in but don’t cater to the lowest common denominator (actually the tower migh be more suitable as a hotel), shops – yes, starter units for business, – yes, offices – yes, apartments – yes (but decent sized, with three bedrooms and a minimum living area of say 750sqft, pubs, fine but no larger than 1500sq ft.

Finally, a developer with a little more vision than that currently on display (has anybody twigged yet the involvement of Zoe Developments I wonder??)

PS don’t worry too much about ‘leaving poor JK alone’ – I am allowed to switch this machine off I my delicatee sensibilities are offended.

Cheerio and have a chew over that!!

I agree with JK on the missed opportunity of forming a link with the Blue coat school.
Also as an Architect who has lived in the area for about 7 years I would be worried about Zoe having any involvement with the scheme as they have not served the area well with their previous developments.
The current design leaves a lot to be desired regardless of the height issue (I Agree that the apartment block is a stalking horse, in addition the proposed childrens museum/Wax museum is only to satisfy the “Civic use” requirement for increased density/height)

Aren’t there enough Hotels in Dublin at this stage. Both budget and 5 star (especially dont build a Hilton – they’re really boring and crappy). I agree with JK’s comments about the apartment sizes, sounds great – I want one, but put the apartments in the tower. Far more interesting to live somewhere like that than have a hotel loking over you. The resty of the scheme seems fine to me, I don’t know what the complaints are about. I can see a day when they start pulling down some of the Zoe developments stuff that was only built there recently.

Viva la revolution

Rory W

Does anyone know what the plan is regarding the Marmion Court Flats. Are they to be renovated, or demolished? They are pretty grim looking, but I must admit to liking the
graffiti. What’s the plan for Blackhall Street?

PS The new Law Society building is fantastic. Marvellous combination of stone and aluminium, (not sure whether its aluminium or not). Excellent. Really lifts the Street.

Most of the surrounding buildings are very grey and dark. Given that the Irish climate is also grey, that makes for a dull environment. These mew materials indroduce a new tone, and liven up an otherwise monochrome street.

Does anyone know if that building that had the fire on Sunday afternoon is listed? Four storey brick facade three doors from the Cobblestone pub?

To be honest I have no idea, perhaps James Kelly could answer this???

But I did get this

Is that the one that looks like someone is restoring it?

No 80 North King Street is List 2 on Dublin Corporations Current Development Plan. It dates (Lower half) from the early part of the 18th Century and upper parts from approx 1830. List 2 allows demolition only in ‘exceptional’ circumstances. Arson is suspected, needless to say Dublin Corporation are refusing to use their powers under new listed building legislation to force the owners to repair the damage, roof it and make it secure, they have instead limited the preservation of the building to propping and temporary works for the sole purpose of allowing the street to be re-opened on Thursday.

By the way the building being restored is no 81 next door.

james

Well i saw the fire, and it was well started on different levels at the back before there was any sign of the Fire Brigade – that looked dodgy itself…..

The West side site is a real opportunity to
complete the Plaza but I have to agree with JK and say that the current proposal
lacks imagination and social purpose, an
altruistic concern so many Irish people
have pushed to one side now that they do
have the money to spend. As for the huge
lamp standards, what is an appropriate response from the west side site??? Perhaps
a Dublin version of the “Ramblas” could yet
be created.

Is this debate over???

The new Law Society building is a badly
proportioned piece of work not deserving
the aforementioned plaudits…

Why is new Dublin architecture so restrained
and lacking authenticity??? It always seems
like a poor man’s version of our superior
European contemporaries.

What does everybody think of the recent spate of burning buildings in Smithfield.

Approx 3 months ago two of the oldest buildings on the North Square of Smithfield Plaza were burnt down. The Green Party got a preservation order that prevented them being knocked down completely.[1]

Then a week ago Smithfield is once again blocked off because the building NEXT DOOR has also burnt.

This smells too much of coincidence to me. How strongly are these cases investigated? I presume that these buildings are being burnt down to shortcut the process to get permission to demolish these buildings, making way for ‘progress’

Regards
Shane

[1] A week later another building along the north quays also went up in smoke

Did these two just not collapse one night?

“Approx 3 months ago two of the oldest buildings on the North Square of Smithfield Plaza were burnt down. The Green Party got a preservation order that prevented them being knocked down completely.[1]”

Re: the two ‘early’ buildings:

Yes they were the two earliest structures remaining on Smithfield slightly older than our own building which was built in 1730.

Originally they were a single house four bays wide, with a pair of gables to the third floorwhich were removed during 19th century alterations which also split the original building into two.

No they did’nt burn down. The rear wall of one of the two buildings was mysteriously ‘pulled out’ one weekend which weakened both buildings to such an extent that they became structurally unstable thereby necessitating the demolition and facade retention works carried out by Dublin Corporation.

As to the second building no 80 – on the night of the fire two weeks ago I was informed by the fire officer present that the fire had been set ‘professionally’.

As to investigation – the Corporation does not regard it as their responsibility and as none of these buildings was insured no forensics investigation has followed.

Regards

JK

JK, the fired building, I live in the apartments nearby and was watching the fire from the roof, long before the Fire Brigade turned up there was flames on different levels, flames that seemed like smalle seperate fire… it seemed to me that the fire had been set deliberately….

Paul

You are almost certainly right about the cause of the fire in no 80 being malicious. My only caveat is that on very rare occassions it is possible for a fire at a lower – say – ground level to cause a series of smaller fires at higher level as a result of hot gases rising and upon being trapped under soffits, furniture and horizontal surfaces, to spontaneously erupt. However if yo uare certain that you witnessed a number of spontaneous fires at the same time I would suggest that you contact the fire officer in Phibsboro Fire Station, Dublin Corporations Conservation Officer and the Gardai in the Bridewell as this information would be of use to them.

JK

Admittedly I was a bit scant on details, but the coincidence was too much for my stomach to bare. I would love to see the perpetrators prosecuted, for criminal damage/arson and endangering life, and whatever is appropriate.

In my dreams,
Shane

I agree with mr. carr on the law society building – and looking at it, i believe it will wear very badly….

this is the building planned for the duffy site on smithfield….

thanks Paul for the picture of the Duffy site. I notice the artists impression tells
a few lies about the shadows cast onto
Smithfield. The lamp standards themselves cast shadows half way up the Smithfield village before sunset so imagination what these 6-8 storey blocks might do???

I’d say its intended to be morning or early afternoon, the eastern faces are lit by sunlight in the drawing…..

Mr Jim Keogan, project manager for the HARP (Historic Area Rejuvenation Project) IAP, said an events manager had just been appointed to arrange a series of “compatible events” in Smithfield, including major concerts from next spring. He said 12 events had already been booked for the new civic space and the corporation was also hoping to develop a market there. The traditional monthly Smithfield horse fair had been accommodated, with much improved management.

the hearings are tues / wed / thurs this week in The Gresham Hotel…..

Hi,

Anybody know what firm designed the new(er) Smithfield market development. Contact details would be a bonus 😉

Pedro.

The development’s webpage is at:-
http://www.smithfield-market.com

Nothin on the architects there – thanks anyway.

i think it’s Horan Keoghan Ryan, who are working with a danish urban design firm, and an english architecture practise. i can’t remember the names of the foreign offices though :confused

http://www.hkr.ie/smithfield_page1.htm

It was HKR alright. Only scant detail on this link though.

JJ

This development is all but complete now.
A particularly interesting feature after they topped out the tower is an almost Byzantine style mosaic around the top floor. Well worth taking a picture if anyone has a camera.

that mosaic is terrible. not a big fan of the central tower. it looks like a brick wearing a discoloured graduation hat.

The tower couldn’t really be called a tower it is only 2 or 3 storeys taller than the other buildings, I am dissapointed by this development it looks ok but you would have hoped for something a little better. I’ll post a photo tomorrow if no-one else does in the meantime.

It is a tower: ie a structure whose height is taller than its diameter. But then again most buildings are.
There’s not much point in speaking of disappointment because it looks exactly like the plans that appeared in all the newspapers and on the developer’s website.
Considering the many developments have managed to look far worse than the architect’s drawings over the years, this is an improvement of sorts.

It may not be a “tower” when viewed from Smithfield, but from the top of Stoneybatter/Prussia St it dominates. The development as a whole screams high quality and money, but in a corporate “good taste” kind of way. Certainly far worse has gone into far more affluent areas.

I see what you are saying and I agree that much worse has gone in to more valuable sites that is why I said it was ok, the one detail in it that annoys me is the copper element at the top it is like sw101 said the top of a graduation hat and I think it has an unfinished appearance.

My biggest concern with this type of development is the Section 23 status.
I think the entry level one-bed apartment for Smithfield Market, overlooking the redeveloped city council housing at Blackhall Place, cost in the region of E365,000.
This rules out the vast majority of first-time buyers, and any first-timers with that kind of cash probably wouldn’t buy in Smithfield anyway.
I went in to their sales office one time and the only people there appeared to be middle-aged investors. Even though I’m familiar with how much property tends to be in Dublin, I was still flabbergasted at the prices being asked for in Smithfield.
When you have this constant transitional population, especially beside city council housing (which although brand new already looks badly maintained) – the buildings always get run down very quickly. You see the same thing right along Parnell Street.
The owners don’t care because they get their rent regardless and the tenants don’t care either because it’s just a temporary arrangement.
I think Section 23 was acceptable to drag Parnell Street out of the mire it was in. But by the time Smithfield Market came on stream, the tax relief were completely unnecessary.

My biggest concern with this type of development is the Section 23 status.

Absolutely. These development tax breaks have far outlived their usefulness and are now actually damaging the country. The reason a one bed can fetch 370k is simply because an investor (who already owns a number of investment properties) can probably recoup about 150k of the purchase price against tax. This is perverse; the general exchequer loses out to the tune of 150k while owner occupiers are priced out of the market. Another property based tax relief – section 48 – is causing traditional costal villages and holiday areas to be engulfed in barely utilised holiday home housing estates. Tax breaks are an extremely crude instrument compared to grant aid. At least with the latter each proposal can be vetted. No matter how shite or nasty the development is, the exchequer ends up subsidising it (through foregoing tax) as long as some very basic conditions are met. At least with a grant scheme, the criteria can be tuned from year to year. The sooner these tax breaks are dispensed with the better.

I agree that Smithfield didn’t need tax breaks as the Collins Barricks development & Jameson Distillery Scheme had already lifted the area up, there is a very funny thread on http://www.p45.net about smithfield a sort of humorous attempt at a gentrification indicator rating, and it safe enough to assume the Smithfield scored quite well if one moves the childrens Court.

I do however think that Section 23 still has a very valid role to play in eliminating urban decay as it does take much of the risk out of developments that could only be considered marginal. The key is definitely to ensure that areas selected require the extra push, what is required is to stop drawing lines on maps and start offering site specific incentives, surely if the government can afford to forgo significant revenue they can afford to adequately assess what specific sites could most benefit from the overall objective which is I believe called ‘Urban Renewal’.

Couldn’t agree more Thomond Park.
I think the issue with Smithfield Market is that when this area was put into the urban renewal pot initially in the late 1980s (I think), it was precisely as you described it – marginal.
However, by the time, this development was approved just a couple of years ago, It was always going to be incredibly lucrative. There was absolutely no risk involved in this.
It wasn’t just Collins Barracks and the other side of Smithfield either that lifted the area.
Almost the entirety of Stoneybatter/Manor Street had already been gentrified. North Brunswick Street had been almost entirely redeveloped and the Luas line was practically laid.
It was a complete no-brainer for the developers.
I agree that Section 23 type incentives shouldn’t be thrown out entirely.
They are a good way to get the ball rolling. But very strict reviewable time limits and conditions should be adopted in future so that developers can’t cash in on the risk that was taken by somebody else years earlier.

Every aspect of section 23 you are defending TP could be achieved far more efficiently and more transparently by having an urban renewal grant fund set aside every year.

People seem to think that tax breaks don’t cost anything. The reality is that whether you forego 100m of income or get the 100m and hand it out again, the net result is the exact same. At least if you collect it and hand it out you can be selective when you’re handing it out and you tune the criteria as you go along. Tax relief is an extremely crude, inefficient and market-distorting way of subsidising marginal development. Invariably the money ends up supporting inappropriate schemes or encouraging economic activity which wasn’t envisaged or having bad side effects. The latter include, in this case for example, pricing owner-occupiers out of the market and effectively allowing landlords join that select group (including artists and lifestock breaders) who are exempt from income tax.

Tax breaks are also Enron-like from a budgeting point of view. Basically you are incurring costs (the loss of future tax revenue) without having to account for it at all.

Smithfield is unrecognisable now from the way it was 10 yaers ago. Is this not the result of tax relief and the Luas?

Private cash was invested in the area that otherwise might have gone abroad. Had the reliefs not been available, the individuals might have found other ways to rearrange their tax affairs to pay less.

Whether it is worth keeping these incentives now is another question. The tax incentives raise the price of property in the area, so investors end up overpaying compared to similar property in a non-incentive area.

The real winner is someone like Duffy’s scrapyard that owned the development land before the tax status was announced.

I think we all agree that Smithfield is a better place now. But using a sledgehammer to break down a door is not the only way to go.
Smithfield was already unrecognisable before the Smithfield Market scheme got underway.
Just as a for instance. At the new scheme … “Underground parking spaces are available to purchase for €40,000. Maintenance fees are expected to be in the region of €1,500 for one-bed apartments, €1,700 for two-beds and €2,000 for three-beds.”
Why on earth give tax relief to a developer who knows they can get E40k for a car parking space.
The site was so lucrative by the end of the urban renewal project that the Section 23 benefits were tantamount to a free government giveaway.
I’d say the developers will come out with more cash than Charlie Duffy at the end of this. He was served with a tax bill for nearly E20 million by the Criminal Assets Bureau in part because of this deal.
Part of the reason he was so slow to sell all those years is that he knew it would have given him an obvious asset that the Revenue could target for years of failing to make tax returns.

I’m not so sure Jim, property is a fixed asset that goes on beyond the lifespan of the tax-breaks unlike bloodstock, at the end of the ten-year period of the relief or the finance period on the asset; the income from the property becomes taxable. If the asset is transfered it is subject to CGT Capital Gains Tax and everyone employed in the design, construction, disposal and management pays tax. As the Tribunals have shown many very wealthy people in Ireland have very sophisticated ways of both avoiding and evading tax, at least with a properly refined Section 23 incentive scheme the money remains in the Country and will acheive an objective that most Local Authorities want to acheive but don’t have the funds to implement them.

The grant fund scheme is a good idea but it has one fatal flaw it is a pro-cyclical idea or at times when demand is highest ie at times of economic strength governments have the resources to implement these schemes but conversely when the economy is weak these schemes are always amongst the first programmes cut. Tax relief in contrast allows the government to relax regulations in recession and attract private individuals to borrow private money to raise demand in the labour intensive construction industry. The revenues are lost over a ten year period over which typically the fiscal position should be healthy for at least 6-7 years.

Private cash was invested in the area that otherwise might have gone abroad.

This is an often repeated claim but I’ve never heard an argument towards why this might happen. If anything, you’re more likely to get doubly screwed by tax if you derive some of your income from foreign investments.

Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that there are 200 units in the new development in Smithfield with an average value of 400K. Assume a 90% qualifying cost yielding a total of 72 million worth of section 23 allowance which will be drawn down over the next few years by the landlords.

If you had designated that 72 million of grant aid was available for apartment construction in Smithfield then at the very worst you could achieve the same result (lining the pockets of the builders/landowners) without biasing the market in favour of rental use for the property. If you had any imagination you could apply a host of conditions on that particular development in order to qualify for the grant aid.

But as I said above in times of recession the government wouldn’t have the money to do this, the EU rules on grant aid are clear ‘urban renewal is to be implemented only where a definitive case of market failure exists’

This is an often repeated claim but I’ve never heard an argument towards why this might happen. If anything, you’re more likely to get doubly screwed by tax if you derive some of your income from foreign investments.

plenty of jurisdictions are happy to invest money without disclosing details to your home tax authorities – so long as they believe that you are not a criminal. Try Switzerland.

Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that there are 200 units in the new development in Smithfield with an average value of 400K. Assume a 90% qualifying cost yielding a total of 72 million worth of section 23 allowance which will be drawn down over the next few years by the landlords.

in this case, the relief would be 42% of 72million or 30.24million. The rest of the money (41.76million) is private cash.

If you had any imagination you could apply a host of conditions on that particular development in order to qualify for the grant aid.

Any number of conditions may be attached to tax relief – I don’t understand your point here.

plenty of jurisdictions are happy to invest money without disclosing details to your home tax authorities – so long as they believe that you are not a criminal. Try Switzerland.

Sure, if you’re prepared to ignore the laws of the land and risk the repercussions, there are lots of ways of increasing your wealth (including robbing post offices). What’s your point here? Because it might be possible for people to break the law and evade paying tax we should give them tax relief as a pre-emptive measure?

You are correct about that it would be only 44% of the 72 million foregone in tax revenue.

Any number of conditions may be attached to tax relief – I don’t understand your point here.

That’s not the case. Section 23 is a very blunt instrument; the authorities cannot apply stipulations on a site by site basis, for example.

TP, the anti-cyclical argument is an interesting one but I’m not fully convinced by it. The EU/ECB has belatedly recongnised that the government borrowing cap is a bad idea and that governments (currently Germany and France) should be allowed to borrow in a downturn in order to increase the money in the economy according to classic Keynesian economic theory. A significant factor for the government using inefficient tax incentive schemes and PPPs to boost capital investment in the country was in order to keep debt off the books to meet the ECB’s criteria. That pressure is now gone. Anyway, It is always better to have the option available to to cut spending on areas that don’t need it. In a recession, for example, the government could quickly respond to the fact that no more holiday homes are needed and cut that budget, diverting the spending into activities which would boost economic activity.

can anyone give an example of good architecture that has come about from the implemtation of tax breaks other than this comercial speck shit?

On many levels, this is a very good ‘regeneration’ development, one of the best Dublin has yet received – as was acknowledged by a UK urban design expert in the paper last week. It fulfils many objectives of good urbanism: it’s permeable; provides quality public space; the materials and finishing are good; it creates new vistas; the tower is a landmark in itself but is still subordinate to the main landmark of Smithfield (the chimney); the apartments appear to be well-designed and spacious. But it must be said that it is an extremely bulky development, and it probably should not have been quite so bulky.

It is at least one third bigger (and heading for twice as big in places) than the development on the east side of the square (‘Chief O’Neill’s’). How did it end up so much bigger? There was only about 4 year’s difference between the planning of the two …

The scale of this development begs the question: In order to obtain a development of this quality, a development that compares favourably with the urban qualities of earlier Dublin (which I think it does), is it a given that we have to accept a significant increase in scale in the central area? Can a large site like this not be developed within the general scale of the area? Is it unviable? How come it was done on the east side only a short time earlier?

Granted an area like Smithfield was less ‘intact’ as a historic district and so less sensitive scale-wise than most of the rest of the central area, but still there is a sense of the scale of the area being totally overwhelmed.

There are a couple of hanger-on Georgian houses on the west side of Queen Street; the one on the left (probably originally 4 stories but now cut down to 2 – may be reconstructed to full height eventually) and the two white ones beyond that (all 3 being protected structures). You could not say that the new development is respectful of scale of these houses.

[align=center:2zjimk47]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[/align:2zjimk47]

Just looking at Smithfield generally, its architectural coherence as an urban square is frankly a mess. While the two main developments on the east and west sides are individually of high urban design quality, they are considerably out of scale with one another. Then most of the rest of the square is made up of a knackery mix of leftover bits and pieces and bad ‘80s & ‘90s stuff.

At the top end (above) there’s one nicely-restored Georgian house on the extreme left. Then a potentially-charming but appallingly-dilapidated terrace of typical Dublin buildings in the middle. Then on the right is what I think is one of the worst buildings in Dublin; a 1990s red brick apartment block which is not only architecturally dismal in itself but commits the heinous crime of pushing a rounded corner into a square defined by right angle corners (a la Lavitt’s Quay in Cork). Then there’s the poor oul ‘80s Corpo housing along the side which doesn’t seem to quite know what to be doing with itself within the ‘brave new’ Smithfield …

The street furniture in the foreground is not holding up too well – many of the stainless steel bollards are bent and kinked.

The containment of the south end of the square is similarly messy. There’s this non-descript office block on the east side (more suited to Amiens Street or Grand Canal Street I think). The row of trees on the left fills in the line of the square where the Irish Distillers building is set way back (is this area going to be built on at some stage?).

Across the bottom is the back of the poxy Georgian-pastiche development on Arran Quay.

Near the bottom on the west side is this dreary 4-storey ‘80s building which had 2 floors added on top recently (why?! – shouldn’t it just have been demolished?).

I hope the architectural coherence of Smithfield can be improved from hereon in.

Smithfield was the subject of a lot of discussion on the forum in the past, but not much lately (a quick ‘Smithfield’ search throws up many old threads). It would be good to get it back on the agenda!

I think Smithfield looks great. I just wish that the buildings on the right and the very end could be knocked down and built in line with the new development. We have enough of Georgian in the city.

@Devin wrote:

More of the above please. I love this type of meandering pedstrianised precinct-a haven from vehicles and noise. The rest of the square is really shown up by this development, as is the appaling dross that was erected during the 90’s. This development feels quite continental to me.

I think smithfield is a wonderful area but somehow lacks soul, they should organise many more events there and a more regular basis. At the moment the place just looks like a big empty car park

@Maskhadov wrote:

I think Smithfield looks great. I just wish that the buildings on the right and the very end could be knocked down and built in line with the new development.

Yes Maskhadov, they should be demolished, but you can’t say that because it’s not PC! You’re meant to say something like ‘the retention of the existing community in Smithfield is a vital element in the ongoing evolution and rebirth of the square blah-de-blah …’ !

Oh what to do! The houses so clearly don’t fit but it’s not like you can say they were a mistake on social grounds and should be redeveloped … Obviously the community should stay, but the houses definitely need to be redeveloped. Anyone any ideas how this might happen??

A nice rainy view 🙂 :

@Maskhadov wrote:

I think Smithfield looks great. I just wish that the buildings on the right and the very end could be knocked down and built in line with the new development. We have enough of Georgian in the city.

😮 Something needs knocking !!, i would agree with you Maskhadov, but for city planners to allow the left and right of your photoghaph to live in “harmony” is a joke?

@Devin wrote:

Yes Maskhadov, they should be demolished, but you can’t say that because it’s not PC! You’re meant to say something like ‘the retention of the existing community in Smithfield is a vital element in the ongoing evolution and rebirth of the square blah-de-blah …’ !

Oh what to do! The houses so clearly don’t fit but it’s not like you can say they were a mistake on social grounds and should be redeveloped … Obviously the community should stay, but the houses definitely need to be redeveloped. Anyone any ideas how this might happen??

Devin, would you be of the same view if the houses were Georgian and of a similar scale to these?

Re: The side of Smithfield opposite Smithfield Markets, there is planning application in (not sure if it’s been approved or not) to significantly increase the scale on that side of the street – particularly at Chief O’Neills which frankly is a hole.

I like the Winged Gas lamps and i like the new buildings to the west side but don’t think they work so close to each other. The lamps lose their importance due to the height and proximity of the buildings and the buildings also lose out lost behind the sails. They should be further apart in my opinion. As everyone says though, there seems to be a huge lack of unity in the whole square.

@Bago wrote:

I like the Winged Gas lamps and i like the new buildings to the west side but don’t think they work so close to each other. The lamps lose their importance due to the height and proximity of the buildings and the buildings also lose out lost behind the sails. They should be further apart in my opinion. As everyone says though, there seems to be a huge lack of unity in the whole square.

well that’s not the developer’s fault. that’s McGarry NiEanaigh’s who positioned the masts very far over to that edge of the square.

The buildings at the North End (Cobblestone included) are all going to be demolished from what I’ve heard.
I think there’s a huge difficulty with the “City Council” houses as it’s a much larger estate than it looks at first. There’s a lot more houses right in behind and a good few of them have fallen into the hands of “private owners”. Not surprising considering the going price is a scarcely believable E485,000.
http://www.propertyshop.ie/printID.asp?id=164618

If I had 485k I’d buy one tmrrw just to keep you undergrad dribblers orf my property!. Seriously if there is any redevelopment of the corpo gaffs the residents deserve to be lavishly recompensed. They were the only pple who wanted to live there in the 80’s and were lucky not to have their gaffs demolished during the Inner Tangent Relief Road debacle. Smithfield is a real microcosm of the last 40 years of development in the city. It’s a real living, breathing neighbourhood, not some wet dream plaything.

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

well that’s not the developer’s fault. that’s McGarry NiEanaigh’s who positioned the masts very far over to that edge of the square.

I don’t think they anticipated how big the west side scheme was going to be. It’s interesting to remember that when lamp brazier scheme was first proposed, the images of it circulated were of a b&w 1950s picture of the square with the new scheme superimposed over it, showing mostly 3 storey buildings in the background on the west side. But the HKR scheme is now about 3 times bigger than those buildings.

@phil wrote:

Devin, would you be of the same view if the houses were Georgian and of a similar scale to these?

If they were as out of place as these Council houses are, then yes. But it depends on a number of things. The thing about Smithfield is that the first big redevelopment on the east side (Chief O’Neill’s) still respected the existing scale of the square – any 3 storey buildings did not seem dwarfed. But then the west side (Smithfield Market) went so much bigger that it made everything else look ridiculous. But it has to be said that the architectural quality of those houses is fairly poor by today’s standards anyway, regardless of their scale. I’m not scoffing at them; I’m just saying that they badly don’t fit.

I think the Corpo houses are kinda fun – they bring all the po-faced planned-within-an-inch-of-its-life development back down to earth :). But yes, agreed that they are out of context and they do interrupt on things, but I can’t see what can be done about them if most are privately owned. At least they’re three storey…

Some great images there (how did you get up so high for the wide?!). I’d tend to side on the demolition side of things regarding the northern terrace. You really have to see it in real life to note just how out of context it is, not that the pics don’t do it anyway. Saying that, it is a difficult case as it would be a shame to wipe away the area’s past which would be my concern, rather than wiping away a few old buildings. But the two-storeys really are so very lack-lustre in such a prominent location; it’s difficult to fight their corner, especially given the many examples of similar stock in the vicinity of the square – it’s not as if they’re the last ones standing. Perhaps a full facade stripping of all that muck could bring them out well.

The western side’s height is very refreshing I think – the disparity between this and the opposite side isn’t as great to make it preposterous – just a little awkward, but overall it works very well I think. And there really is so little left of original streetscapes of merit in the area that there’s no point compromising height in new development here – if anything the contrast with what is left is quite pleasant. The issue of massing is different to that of height, and if this can be addressed in the sensitive areas where new development meets existing grain, then everything ought to integrate a lot better.

Love the curved street: a format we seemed to have left behind in the 1770s and forgotton all about. The standard of design and materials is also commendable, though agreed with niallig that this cannot make up for the certain lack of soul that’s there at present – perhaps it will improve with time. There’s so many areas in Dublin like this now that are brand-spanking new with high quality buildings and public spaces, yet they just feel like white elephants without a soul about. They probably all just need time to grow up.

Surely this is a big joke?!

And as for Beaux Lane House’s adolescent sibling – sure don’t they grow up so fast altogether….

zz

I just thought it was strange that you emmedietly selected these buildings as oppossed to the four that seem to have been allowed to fall into serious disprepair as can be seen in your image below. I also don’t see why it should be expected that the people living in these homes should suddenly have to change the way they live and the types of homes that they live in due to the scale of the buildings opposite them.

@Devin wrote:

The best thing they could do with Smithfield would be to get rid of every single thing that sticks out of the ground in the square – lampposts, signs, the stainless steel bollards and even the feature “Nuremburg Rally” gas lights. The latter in particular are responsible for most of the lopsidedness; the difference in building heights on both sides isn’t as significant as it seems. Without them the large chimney and setbacks on the eastern side would provide some sort of counter balance. Also these features – especially the bollards – create visual “lines” across the square which are ugly and arbitrary and break up the potential “squareness” of the space. After that, they should ensure a uniform paving scheme for the entire square – getting rid of the eastern “road” – for example by extending the cobbling to cover the entire space.

There isn’t much you can do with the mishmash of buildings but for me that’s part of the square’s appeal. I’d hate to see the Cobblestone go I have to say – it’s a great pub and one of the few reasons why “outsiders” visit the area at night.

On the subject of the braziers, the bases of them are unbelievably tatty, dirty and defaced by vandalism.
I think they’re very attractive from a distance but when you actually walk by them, they look awful like the base of some kind of derelict ESB substation.
On the rare occasions when they are lit, two of them aren’t working and haven’t for the longest time, which really just about sums up the City Council.
Also, I know people have raised issues about the quality of the cobbling on the square but there’s a big patch that has been tarmaced over, which has made it unimaginably worse.

In some of the side streets off Smithfield you can still see the beautiful quality of setting/cobbling that Smithfield had before its setts were taken up and relaid circa 2000, like Haymarket, or Red Cow Lane (below).

Regarding the terrace of four in disrepair, it’s difficult to know what to do because they are quite bad – the two in the middle are just a front wall! Still (if restored) they would be a reminder of what so much of Dublin was once like. The one on the left supposedly still retains some features of note internally. All four are protected structures. If you wanted to demolish them you would probably have to go through the process of having them removed from the RPS first. It would probably be permitted in the case of the middle two, but not necessarily the other two.

There was a nice ambience of old Dublin at the top of Smithfield. When this pub (top picture) was demolished in 2003, I think it damaged that ambience. The pub – Bo Derrol’s – (a non-PS) was originally to have been retained within the big west side development, but they snuck in a demolition application at the last minute, with a report written by a “Conservation Architect” (who specialises in writing off old buildings – some of you will know him) saying the building wasn’t worth keeping and the Council went for it.

It was quite a good quality 19th century building, normally the type of building you would retain and repair. And it could have been easily kept within the huge site – it was just greediness that they wanted to get rid of it.

It was a nice old building alright and it was extremely sneaky how they went about getting it demolished…
However in fairness, the replacement has a certain elegance – it’s a good example of a modern “grain” building as in it dosent scream too loudly for attention in the streetscape…
Quite nicely proportioned opes as well!
Still I agree that sheer greed was the driving force behind this particular corner of the development.

I was actually walking around up there for the first time on Friday (after being dumped in Smithfield off the Luas because of the riots) and it’s definitely a very impressive development in general. The emphasis seems to be on quality materials and detailing which is a welcome change. Theres great permeability through the blocks, even though some of the lanes in the middle are potentially a bit grim if retailers turn their backs on them like the new “fresh” store (otherwise pretty exemplary for a supermarket) does.
It’s also quite eerie at the moment with so much emptiness – these lovely streets with absolutely nothing and noone on them. Definitely worth experiencing before tacky signage starts to colonize the place!
An awful lot will depend on the mix of retailers. If they get the balance right it has the potential to be a whole new shopping hub for the city, eventually connecting across to the new Markets area. If they can’t attract at least one or two destination retailers (im thinking Borders Books, Virgin Megastore, NikeTown, etc) then i’d see them having huge difficulty in making it a viable and vibrant place to travel to to from the city core to shop.

Previous thread about one of the buildings at the top of the square…

https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=377

@BTH wrote:

It was a nice old building alright and it was extremely sneaky how they went about getting it demolished…
However in fairness, the replacement has a certain elegance – it’s a good example of a modern “grain” building as in it dosent scream too loudly for attention in the streetscape…
Quite nicely proportioned opes as well!
Still I agree that sheer greed was the driving force behind this particular corner of the development.

I was actually walking around up there for the first time on Friday (after being dumped in Smithfield off the Luas because of the riots) and it’s definitely a very impressive development in general. The emphasis seems to be on quality materials and detailing which is a welcome change. Theres great permeability through the blocks, even though some of the lanes in the middle are potentially a bit grim if retailers turn their backs on them like the new “fresh” store (otherwise pretty exemplary for a supermarket) does.
It’s also quite eerie at the moment with so much emptiness – these lovely streets with absolutely nothing and noone on them. Definitely worth experiencing before tacky signage starts to colonize the place!
An awful lot will depend on the mix of retailers. If they get the balance right it has the potential to be a whole new shopping hub for the city, eventually connecting across to the new Markets area. If they can’t attract at least one or two destination retailers (im thinking Borders Books, Virgin Megastore, NikeTown, etc) then i’d see them having huge difficulty in making it a viable and vibrant place to travel to to from the city core to shop.

Be nice if there was a bit of evening life there as well. The whole north side is pretty quite a night except for where Temple bar has spilled over the hay-penny bridge.

Most of these apartments are being let to transient twenty-somethings with no connection or interest in the future of Smithfield – this certainly won’t help to improve the atmosphere…after all of this developement, the square still looks scuffy with little cohesion visually or in terms of the surrounding community

Most of these apartments are being let to transient twenty-somethings with no connection or interest in the future of Smithfield – this certainly won’t help to improve the atmosphere…after all of this developement, the square still looks scuffy with little cohesion visually or in terms of the surrounding community

it’s all been driven by tax breaks so that’s what happens

@BTH wrote:

An awful lot will depend on the mix of retailers. If they get the balance right it has the potential to be a whole new shopping hub for the city, eventually connecting across to the new Markets area. If they can’t attract at least one or two destination retailers (im thinking Borders Books, Virgin Megastore, NikeTown, etc) then i’d see them having huge difficulty in making it a viable and vibrant place to travel to to from the city core to shop.

From an interview I did with Simon Kelly (one of the developers of Smithfield Market):
“We see Fresh as the catalyst for the whole Smithfield estate, where you go because there’s good stores on offer and it’s different to other areas. There’ll be a Thomas Reads pub, a Starbucks, a few health shops and an O’Brien’s sandwich bar there too. We want to bring something a bit different,” he said.

“That’s why we control all of the retail we developed in Smithfield.

“Over the investment cycle it will pay you, if you take in some of the people who aren’t as strong but who bring customers. If you just go for the highest rent and the most boring brands, there will be nothing in the end.”

@jdivision wrote:

it’s different to other areas. There’ll be a Thomas Reads pub, a Starbucks, a few health shops and an O’Brien’s sandwich bar there too. We want to bring something a bit different,

That all sounds pretty generic to me…

And as for Fresh… I went in there the other night to get some parsley. It took three (very helpful) shop assistants to establish between them what parsely was. And no, they didn’t have any.

There are already two excellent destination retailers just off the square – Little Italy (http://www.littleitalyltd.com/) and Kish Fish (http://www.kishfish.ie) – but neither have been incorporated into the new retail plans. Fresh’s fish comes from Wrights of Howth (and seems to just lie there rotting all day from what I can see). And while there is some crossover between Little Italy’s range and Fresh’s, the difference in price is striking. A tin of premium Cirio tomatoes costing 99c in the former, retails for e1.79 in the latter.

The Smithfield development has all the character and genuineness of an airport. It’s all about fleecing yuppies who don’t know better, while quietly sidelining the actual culture of the area.

I wouldn’t be too cynical about this development. While I would be critical of some aspects of it – namely the sheer scale of it and the scorched earth policy in regard to any remaining historic buildings on site (by contrast the development on the opposite side of the square retained and incorporated a plethora of historic buildings and other structures) – I would give it a chance. If Fresh’s fish is not selling yet it’s probably because people don’t know about it yet – It only opened the other week after all. Smithfield has been ‘about to happen’ for so long now that I am dying to see if it actually will happen, if this new development will provide the critical mass to create a vibrant area.

[align=center:36xizl4f]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~[/align:36xizl4f]

Good picture of the fire in No. 80 King Street in that linked thread, Paul. I suppose there’s not much left inside it now!
The ‘accidental’ fire in a historic building – such a tiresome stunt. Another happened recently on the top two floors of an Aungier Street house, the one that used to be the hat shop, Coyle’s.

This picture is from 2000, at the time the two small ones were being demolished behind the facades:
.

this might not be popular but personally i would knock down all the above buildings and build them in line with the new buildings

@Maskhadov wrote:

this might not be popular but personally i would knock down all the above buildings and build them in line with the new buildings

It is a shame that they have fallen into such disrepair and I really do not know what will become of them. If they are restored it would merely be an act of facadism as that seems to be all that is left of them.

Having said that, No.81 North King Street (The building to the left of the above photo) has been undergoing a very successful restoration these last few years and James Kelly is to be commended as it will probably be all that will stay of the old Smithfield. I somehow get the feeling that the scale of this building is more appropriate for the space as a whole, but too late now.

Does anybody know if this building was part of a terrace as it seems to have a fairly established gable?

I don’t know if there were any consistent terraces around there; it seems to mostly just a higgledy-piggledy variety of heights, widths and shapes – a bit like the Quays (were).

There’s an old stone underpass archway between No. 80 and No. 81, which you can see in the 1950s picture below. It’s obscured now by a big used car sales fascia. You can still see the uprights of the arch (see below) – it’s in the ‘Gibbsian’ style. If the buildings are to kept, this sign should be redesigned to show the arch.
.

Perhaps if the area is incapable of supporting either Fresh Fish or Italianate Pasta outlets some consideration could be given to a leaseback arrangement with Charlie Duffy who operated a very popular and efficient Breakers Yard in Smithfield up until the day of reckoning.
They shifted poor oul Charlie out to a souless industrial unit on the Long Miler where he still manages to turn a cent keeping Irelands wheels turning.
Surely Car Breakers yards have aesthetic reghts too…and another thing !…with Dublin City Councils predisposition for allocating Car space in EVERY commercial or resedential development it approves perhaps a Breakers Yard IS actually more in keeping with the intrinsic cultural ethos of Smithfield,or indeed any other DCC area…..;)

Yes Alek I agree the area is being sterilised. The planners would tell you that those kind of concerns (like Duffy’s) are “not a long-term sustainable use for the area” but they were definitely part of the character of that part of town.
Then there’s the horse fair …..

hang on a second ! of course the place has very little atmosphere , it’s only just finished and almost no shops have move in yet !

Consider that it took 6 months between starbucks reported as “opening soon” in the times and them actually doing so at the harcourt tram station. Things can take time. I think it is far too early to dismiss the area as a failure.

On an aesthetic level , the square is large enough to accomodate all the different sides to the square. I feel that the old distellery is very poor and ,aside from the facade, has worn badly. The new buildings have the right bulk in my opinion, and fit in well the viking ship pylons.

If temple bar was too successfull and the ifsc not sufficiently , this looks to get it just right to my mind.

I like the Fusano properties development. I remember all the hoo-haa about the proposal when it was first mooted and the objections to the tower. Looking at the finished product, I think it looks quite well overall . The Corpo housing scheme at the corner is bloody awful however. The remnnants of buildings, ie the Cobblestone pub and the 3 other sites should be demolished (bar the tall Georgian house) at the end of the square and a contemporary eye catching focal point building should be added I think. It would frame the square. Pity Bo- Derrels pub was demolished that was around here too but the replacement is’nt bad. Overall Smithfield looks good and is getting better. Well done to the HARP for rejuvenating this whole area of the city , ie North King Street etc…It was once a national disgrace.

I took a walk around Smithfield yesterday and thought the new development was great.

The area is a sucess.. it will just take time for people and shops to move in. The old buildings look terrible though.

Just to add, I think a bronze sculpture of horses somewhere in the square would be an attractive feature, in honour of the horse fair.

Shouldn’t that be pi-balled ponies to give an authentic feel as opposed to a homogenised rose tinted view of the past; Perry Ogden has an excellent collection of pictures taken in the late 1990’s of some of the characters of the market

aye …a couple of old nags grouped together would suffice as an attraction. It could be a funny piece of sculpture. It doesn’t have to be idealistic or too serious. Something to be propped up on when having a photo taken.

@GregF wrote:

I like the Fusano properties development. I remember all the hoo-haa about the proposal when it was first mooted and the objections to the tower.

Wern’t they going for 23 storeys at first? As far as l remember it was taken down in height not because a high building was deemed innapropriate for the area but because the chimney was already the established landmark of Smithfield and it would have been taller than that.

@Devin wrote:

Wern’t they going for 23 storeys at first? As far as l remember it was taken down in height not because a high building was deemed innapropriate for the area but because the chimney was already the established landmark of Smithfield and it would have been taller than that.

Not sure whether it was 23 storeys or not but yeah, it was turned down because it would have detracted from the tower. There’s a story that’s related to the tower and other side of the square in The Sunday Business Post on Sunday

@jdivision wrote:

Re: The side of Smithfield opposite Smithfield Markets, there is planning application in (not sure if it’s been approved or not) to significantly increase the scale on that side of the street – particularly at Chief O’Neills which frankly is a hole.

That planning app was approved by DCC but has just been refused by ABP: http://www.pleanala.ie/data1/searchdetails.asp?id=3270769&caseno=215643

The plan was to increase the height of the drum-shaped function room of the hotel from 2 storeys to 9 storeys, which would have looked something like this (below). Problem was, there were apartments just a few feet away across the laneway and the residents unsurprisingly went beserk at how much light etc. would be blocked, and put several appeals in.

I think an increase in height of the main part of the hotel was also sought (perhaps different Ref. No.)
.

Is it known what if any prosecutions occured in this case?

On a separate if oddly non-connected note, does anyone know when the tall flame torchs in S. were last lit? :confused:

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/revamped-smithfield-becoming-ghost-town-after-businesses-shut-1686949.html

Revamped Smithfield ‘becoming ghost town’ after businesses shut
Colin O’Riordan/ Evening Herald

Smithfield is in danger of becoming a “ghost town” due to the number of businesses closing down, a councillor has warned.

Last year, the much acclaimed Lighthouse Cinema opened its doors in the area. A science museum and a bookies also opened up, while the Motor Tax office relocated there.

Thomas Read closed its doors in the area as its parent group, which owns a chain of pubs and restaurants throughout the city, struggles to survive.

A new Spar supermarket recently shut down, just four weeks after it opened. Another convenience store has also shut its doors. However, the Fresh supermarket still appears to be thriving in the area.

Last week, a case came to the Commercial Court concerning a legal action for re-possession of a €10m property in the area, following allegations of non-payment of rent.

The sub-tenants of the company being sued — Redquartz Smithfield Ltd — are the Lighthouse Cinema and Fresh supermarket,

Cllr Burke said the Smithfield Horse Market was hurting the area, but there was little that Dublin City Council could do about it, thanks to ancient city laws.

Councillors, the DSPCA and a number of parties have hit out at the market.
“Dublin City Council’s hands are tied in relation to this, due to an ancient law,” Cllr Burke said.

“We need the support of the Government — a change of legislation is required.”

what science museum,have the horse sellers been offered other areas?

even with more apartments and shopfronts to the square its still a ghosttown?

Most of the retail units were never occupied in the first place so the shopfronts to the square have been empty for years now, except a few which are struggling to survive.

There is a whole DCC Markets Area Development Plan, I dont think the area will reach it’s potential until this plan takes affect. But this doesn’t mean the retail shouldn’t have been built, course it should.

http://www.dublincity.ie/Planning/OtherDevelopmentPlans/FrameworkDevelopmentPlans/Pages/CityMarkets.aspx

Smithfield has always been a ghost town to me.

Its strange that they blame the horse fair. Cities need those kind of events to maintain some life and character.

‘What Science museum?’ was my thought too.
I do like the Lighthouse though – very nice space.

“DCC’s hand are tied”… in the same way that they couldnt complete the repaving…or enforce the derelcit sites act….or maintain the existing square

I agree with Stephen, sounds more like DCC are sitting on their hands.
Surely the Development Framework plan which falls under Central Government Legislation can be used to move this horse market if they do desire.

They’re not going to be able to rent these shop spaces because if there isn’t critical mass to support a pub/Spar, what chance does any other business have? Simple solution for me is to rent them out as artist’s studios, until things pick up.

They had rental agreements in place on a number of the units. However, the retailers are refusing to move in as the units are double height and they don’t want to pay the additional costs such as heating that involves. The developers went back and tried to put mezzanines or convert the top half into offices making the units single storey but DCC in their wisdom said no. So now the units are empty and with the downturn many of those who had agreed to open are probably reassessing their options.

@jdivision wrote:

They had rental agreements in place on a number of the units. However, the retailers are refusing to move in as the units are double height and they don’t want to pay the additional costs such as heating that involves. The developers went back and tried to put mezzanines or convert the top half into offices making the units single storey but DCC in their wisdom said no. So now the units are empty and with the downturn many of those who had agreed to open are probably reassessing their options.

In fairness jdivision, DCC probably got tired of all the change-of-uses sought by the developers, and possibly viewed such requests through that prism – ie no emigration museum, no legal museum, no craft centre, or sculpture centre – all of which were scheduled but never happened 🙁

The light house is a gem in an otherwise now somewhat intimidating ghost town.

hutton, as far as I know the cultural use was always the subject of discussion between both parties and nothing was ever decided for definite until the lighthouse was agreed upon. I could be wrong. Having said all that, the idea of putting the wax works in there was always a dreadful one.
At the same time, the council should have asked to see the agreements in principle with the retailers, looked at the reasons for their reticence and granted permission accordingly. There’s a whole swathe of empty retail units around the city that have been unoccupied for years.

@jdivision wrote:

There’s a whole swathe of empty retail units around the city that have been unoccupied for years.

This issue has been on my mind for some time – the UK Local Govt Assoc has also identified it as issue, with some suggestions – see below.

Re Wax Museum – where so would you put it?

The allocation of an over-sized step-down methadone clinic that was going to permit last year to HSE, and albeit located on Queen Street, really smacked (no pun intended) of the developers/ owners desperate for rent – and signs on as to poor Paddy Kelly going to the wall… I wonder if the wax museum suggestion was also a sign of desperation?

On empty shops: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7840421.stm

if there not enough people living around there now to make enough footfall?

Think Burke is over-stating the problem cause by the horse-fair.

I lived around that area for a few years, and it was not a huge problem (one saturday a fortnight I think).

Other than the horse manure deposited it was not really a problem…in fact it was one of the few days you had any life in the area – there were tourists taking photographs, etc.

There was a bit of a skanger element of hangers-on, but it was not that bad..I didn’t feel threatened anyway- there was always plenty of coppers about.

it is the sort of thing there would be loads of nostalgia about 20 years after it going.

The fair is on first Sunday of every month.
Not going to get into an argument on the pros and cons of it. However, it should be noted that almost every pub in Smithfield and Stoneybatter area feels the need to shut their doors and only allow regulars in that day.

@hutton wrote:

Re Wax Museum – where so would you put it?
…. signs on as to poor Paddy Kelly going to the wall… I wonder if the wax museum suggestion was also a sign of desperation?

I think they came up with the waxwork idea because Kelly’s son and Donie Cassidy redeveloped the old wax works site and were looking for somewhere to put the things afterwards. It wouldn’t bother me if they never saw the light of day again, they never impressed me. If you had to have a venue, is the old church on Essex Quay in Temple Bar in use now or still vacant? Maybe there? http://ireland.archiseek.com/buildings_ireland/dublin/southcity/templebar/essex_quay/church_lge.html

Speaking of ghost towns, have you seen what a ghost town Mayor Street / IFSC extension has become while Luas is being put in? Most businesses have decided to shut up and it’s gone sooo quiet.

@Devin wrote:

Speaking of ghost towns, have you seen what a ghost town Mayor Street / IFSC extension has become while Luas is being put in? Most businesses have decided to shut up and it’s gone sooo quiet.

I think the IFSC/Mayor Street qualifies more as a wasteland, to be a ghost town would suggest it was once a town.

@Devin wrote:

Speaking of ghost towns, have you seen what a ghost town Mayor Street / IFSC extension has become while Luas is being put in? Most businesses have decided to shut up and it’s gone sooo quiet.

I work in the IFSC and don’t recall any businesses having shut down along Mayor Street apart from a menswear shop that was quickly replaced by a new beauty salon.. If anything the numbers have increased (The old Excise bar has been turned into three thriving restaurant/food businesses) and 2 bookies have also opened.

I think it was the weekend when I passed. Ely and Excise Bar were both closed, and very little was open on Mayor Square. The place was dead. Maybe it’s different during the week. It’s temporary of course, during Luas works..

2 bookies have opened!

god it’s almost like Wall St 😉

While they’re trying to figure out what to do with Smithfield, could they not stick in a few pockets of trees and the odd bench.

And when we’re on the subject of prolonged inaction, does anyone know what the master plan might be for the last remaining fragments of the last early houses on Smithfield? or are they just hoping they fall in on themselves before anyone notices that they’re gone!

Last I heard was the criminal assets bureau were involved in some way with those properties. CAB are usually quick to get this kind of thing on the open market but i presume there is some sort of legal challenge blocking the way

@gunter wrote:

could they not stick in a few pockets of trees and the odd bench.

agghhhhhhhh! don’t encourage them, ‘pockets of trees’ is as far as the collective imagination of the city council stretches, college green anyone ?

a considered planting scheme please, by a landscape design practice and preferably some firm other than mitchell 😉

@Peter Fitz wrote:

agghhhhhhhh! . . . . a considered planting scheme please, by a landscape design practice . . .

That sounds like six hundred quid for the trees and ten grand in consultancy fees, a competitive tender process and two years of dithering!

Could they not just get out the google-earth view, splodge on a few tree until it looks right, print it off as a map and send someone round to B&Q.

They could even fix the paving on Haymarket with the cobbles they’d take out!

@gunter wrote:

Could they not just get out the google-earth view, splodge on a few tree until it looks right, print it off as a map and send someone round to B&Q.

Fine in principle, but it didn’t exactly work for Plaza del Robocop on Dame Street.

You’d think it’d be hard to get the random placing of planters wrong, but DCC found a way!

@gunter wrote:

splodge on a few trees until it looks right, print it off as a map and send someone round to B&Q.

you see the word ‘splodge’ kind of embodies DCC’s planting policy for me & i just don’t trust them to decide what looks right !!!

once a tree goes in, assuming it lasts by accident or design for 20 years, aquring a level of gravitas in the process, its likely to remain part of the street scape for the next 50 years+ with obvious potential to significantly alter the appearance of the street / space.

so a little hotch-potch patch-up job in a visual ‘wasteland’ like smithfield could come to be emblematic of the space and should not be undertaken on a whim! :p

One of the lesser entries for the 1991 Smithfield competition just envisaged a bit of in-fill, trees and a market!

It’s too late for the in-fill, but we could still have a few trees and a market, what’s wrong with that?

@gunter wrote:

It’s too late for the in-fill, but we could still have a few trees and a market, what’s wrong with that?

If you’re just talking trees in planters, fine – and a decent market would be great … but if trees are to be ground planted, and not just in a formally laid out space like smithfield but on any city street, you have to plan !!! obviously the addition of trees will completely change the appearance of the space in time, block facades, sight lines, create vistas etc.

again, ‘sure just plant a few trees’ sums up DCC’s hotch potch approach to the public realm and its just not on.

OK, forget about the trees, can we get some tumbleweed ?

@gunter wrote:

OK, forget about the trees, can we get some tumbleweed ?

I believe there’s plenty drifting about the docklands 😉

old newspaper cutting of Smithfield (April ’97) . . . before redevelopment.

Interesting caption!

The way I remember it, apart from the monthly horse fair, the fruit & veg market illustrated was just a spill-out from the market sheds and stores along the west side of Smithfield and was mostly a Saturday morning thing.

But, even with this limited use, and accepting that there may have been an architectural deficit, little urban enclosure, and no towering gas braziers, the space ‘worked’!

It can’t be rocket science to just stick a open-air market into Smithfield at weekends and just see what happens!

The Meeting House Square market in Temple Bar is fine if you don’t mind paying €4.50 for a loaf of bread, but it too small and too arty to really satisfy. The Marlay Park and Peoples’ Park, DunLaoghaire markets have their charms but are too far out to make a contribution to the city, and are equally arty and over-priced, IMO.

Is there any reason why a city the size of Dublin couldn’t have half a dozen decent unpretentious open air markets within the city centre area, enlivening dead spaces and drawing people into the ghost areas of the city centre?

Why would Smithfield and Newmarket not be the obvious places to start?

http://www.dublincity.ie/SiteCollectionDocuments/markets_area_framework_plan.pdf

The plan is for an indoor public market, and the Stallholders of the Temple Bar market have already been consulted about this and expressed a willingness to move to Smithfield once the market is available.

I prefer DCC’s plan, in the mean time Smithfield square IS ALREADY available to artisan stallholders fruit&veg alike but it seems the stallholders are not interested. Wonder why!?

@gunter wrote:

old newspaper cutting of Smithfield (April ’97) . . . before redevelopment.

Interesting caption!

The way I remember it, apart from the monthly horse fair, the fruit & veg market illustrated was just a spill-out from the market sheds and stores along the west side of Smithfield and was mostly a Saturday morning thing.

But, even with this limited use, and accepting that there may have been an architectural deficit, little urban enclosure, and no towering gas braziers, the space ‘worked’!

It can’t be rocket science to just stick a open-air market into Smithfield at weekends and just see what happens!

The Meeting House Square market in Temple Bar is fine if you don’t mind paying €4.50 for a loaf of bread, but it too small and too arty to really satisfy. The Marlay Park and Peoples’ Park, DunLaoghaire markets have their charms but are too far out to make a contribution to the city, and are equally arty and over-priced, IMO.

Is there any reason why a city the size of Dublin couldn’t have half a dozen decent unpretentious open air markets within the city centre area, enlivening dead spaces and drawing people into the ghost areas of the city centre?

Why would Smithfield and Newmarket not be the obvious places to start?

jasus! wasteland or not, I prefere it the way it is now. Judging by the picture, it was an absolute kip

@cgcsb wrote:

jasus! . . . it was an absolute kip

I don’t know, you could get some good stuff there!

. . . and if you spent €4.50 you’d come home with more than a feckin loaf of herbal bread

It was a great veggie market – a real loss to the area.

Yes Smithfield is a wasteland, lived there for 2 years 2005-2007. In fact me and my mates were among the first people to move into the Smithfield Market apartments. Couldn’t wait to leave by the end.

Problems
– Far too much retail space provided considering the area is not a major destination. The amount of basement parking aims for thousands upon thousands of shoppers which never materialised.
– Major ASB problem in the area. I witnessed many assults and muggings in my time there. Very unsafe at night. Cops were busting skangers practically on a daily basis.
– Alcoholic treatment centre brings many drunks to the seating area at the south of the square near the Luas.
– Criminal Court brought lots of gougers to the square during the day, though only during working hours of course
– Still a large amount of dereliction, including on the square itself.
– Poor finish to the area – cobblestones not reset down near the Luas and just tarmaced over, braziers never lit anymore, lots of litter.
– Horse market. This is more of a neutral though, as although it brought vast quantities of droppings and litter and noise into the area, I know that it’s a tourist draw, and it was only once a month.
– Celtic Tiger feel to the new buildings. Reads was very swanky and expensive, same for Fresh, and the gym under the hotel. Nothing for anyone on a budget that’s for sure. Gentrification in its purest form.

Pluses
– Lighthouse cinema: only opened recently but was very impressed, lovely place.
– Jameson distillery is worth a look.
– Cobblestone pub is a gem
– Close to pleasant Stoneybatter area
– Luas is a godsend
– Square and braziers are impressive

@pippin101 wrote:

– Close to pleasant Stoneybatter area

i.e. close to somewhere else!

Seeing the positive, the New York Times’ take on Smithfield (April 26th 2009)

http://travel.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/travel/26surfacing.html?ref=travel

Folk should’nt get too sentimental for the old market or horse fair. The thing is, that there is an architectural backdrop there now, and it’s just a matter of filling it with people. Getting a bit of human life into the place is the priority now like down the docks.

I suppose folks living there in the new appartments are crippled with mortgages or rent and are only going from bed to work. I dunno how the Council and local business folk cant initiate something to attract folk out of their appartments/cells. The Ice Skating and Chinese New Year festival are the sort of thing to give the place a lift. How about live open air music, jigs and reels etc… in conjunction with the Cobblestone could be a weekly feature….bring back the market but make it like the one in Temple Bar, with an international flavour as well. Hang up flags and buntings. A Horse Fair too but get the Irish Equistrian crowd and the moneybags Horse Racing crowd and a few toffs involved to share their knowledge. Make it weekly or montly etc….Get the Gardai involved as well to keep an eye on the druggies, skangers and half wits. It seems to be a main feature of Irish society today, as there are hundreds of such unfortunate people, homeless teenagers and children abandoned by their parents throughout the city centre, and very prominent along from Wood Quay to Aston Quay.

Regarding the tree planting to soften the place, but I’d be on for that, but with the trees planted in containers so that they could be moved about or removed when required. A few flower containers as well to liven the grey concrete. Jaypers, it’s not too big a deal really.

Moore Street is the exact opposite, a bustling market street full of folk from around the world but with an awful architectural backdrop of dereliction and squalor.

@GregF wrote:

I suppose folks living there in the new appartments are crippled with mortgages or rent and are only going from bed to work.

This is definitely not the case, these apartments were all Section 23, and only suitable for developers. All the occupants are tennants. Perhaps more owner occupied designed units would benefit the area in future.
The main reson people rent here is bacause the area is beside the city center, and so they dont go from work to bed to work. They spend more time in the city centre as a result.

@GregF wrote:

I dunno how the Council and local business folk cant initiate something to attract folk out of their appartments/cells. The Ice Skating and Chinese New Year festival are the sort of thing to give the place a lift. How about live open air music, jigs and reels etc… in conjunction with the Cobblestone could be a weekly feature….bring back the market but make it like the one in Temple Bar, with an international flavour as well. Hang up flags and buntings.

All of these things have been tried and happen all the time, including the buntings. Perhaps you didn’t know because nobody attents the events?
There are food markets and international markets on here all the time, but only ppl that live in Smithfield or pass through are aware of this.
A marketing campaign may be needed similar to the way the Docklands Authority markets that area.

The whole area needs to be rebranded and marketed properly. The council should be empowered to do this like the DDDA.

I used to work in Stoneybatter and when I first started working around there it was so drab and depressing. Even so, I used to like the fruit and vegetable market in Smithfield and there was a man selling plants outside it everyday – plenty of people browsing all the time (but not pretentious yuppy types obviously). I agree that the new apartment development was gentrification in it’s purest form and the cafes and the supermarket Fresh were clearly aimed at well-healed types. As someone working locally, though, I really appreciated the new seating area beside the supermarket as there was nowhere clean to sit and eat lunch before. I also agree that the events hosted there now are not being properly promoted – I used to just stumble across these things on my way to and from work, I wouldn’t have realised anything was happening there otherwise and it’s so handy to get to, as a venue, from the city centre.
I wish they would restore those old (18th century?) buildings too. Can’t believe we had the whole celtic tiger thing and they are still derelict. What a shame.

From DCC website:
Dublin City Council are delighted to announce a new and exciting selection of outdoor markets in city centre locations the first of which is the Friday market at Smithfield.
Located in an attractive tree lined area close to the Luas line the market offers a fine selection of foods with an international flavour as well as jewellery and beauty products. There is also a seated picnic area.

Hours of business: Friday 11.00am-6.00pm

there is also another indoor market on Sundays:
http://www.irishfarmersmarkets.ie/smithfield.html

@ac1976 wrote:

. . . . the Friday market at Smithfield, located in an attractive tree lined area . . . offers a fine selection of foods with an international flavour . . . there is also a seated picnic area.

Hours of business: Friday 11.00am-6.00pm

So you’re suggesting that if a person were to go down there tomorrow, say for example, they would find Smithfield thronged with the sounds and smells of a lively market in full swing!

That sounds like a challenge!

. . . will bring camera and a fiver, and report back in due course.:)

That market, so far, is an absolute joke. For the past three Fridays I have passed by the sum total of two stalls that sell expensive bread and pastries. Passing by after work at around 5:30 have I already missed the ‘rush hour’? Anyway at that time they look very lonely indeed. They dont even trade on the square – instead they’re somewhat hidden under the group of trees next to the luas stop, presumably as this is the only space that might offer any potential to drum up some trade from the luas stop. What genius thought of the Friday afternoon slot anyway? People with jobs dont have the free time and people without jobs dont have the money.

DCC and DoEHLG: Take note of what the British Government are doing at the moment to inject life into their rapidly deteriorating high streets – ie relaxing change of use planning laws and providing micro-finance initiatives for the development of temporary community facilities in vacant retail units. Alas, this sort of proactive planning is alien to our culture but it is exactly whats required to save Smithfield. Could even become a highly innovative form of planned de-gentrification in Ireland! Im sure the arty types up in Stoneybatter and would be delighted to take on the programming of all the empty units. A handful of art studios/workshop/performance spaces would enliven the place no end. The presence of new social groupings on the square might even encourage the working class kids and the yuppy residents to interact a bit more and reduce some of the latent tension that exists when they cross paths.

@ac1976 wrote:

From DCC website:
Dublin City Council are delighted to announce a new and exciting selection of outdoor markets in city centre locations the first of which is the Friday market at Smithfield.
Located in an attractive tree lined area close to the Luas line the market offers a fine selection of foods with an international flavour as well as jewellery and beauty products. There is also a seated picnic area.

Hours of business: Friday 11.00am-6.00pm

there is also another indoor market on Sundays:
http://www.irishfarmersmarkets.ie/smithfield.html

I know a lot of people are unemployed these days but I don’t really understand the economic sense of putting on a market between 11am and 6pm on a Friday

with regard to the “irish farmers market” on the sunday, stalls include

Soul Bakery Bread
Cabbage Patch Vegitables (sic)
Speciality Cakes & Breads
Olives & Organic Cheeses,
Nuts and Sweets
Crafts, Paintings, Photographs
Jewellery
Multicultural Foods

farming’s certainly diversified these days

Oh, the grow your own bungalow stall must have pulled out at short notice.

I just moved away from the Smithfield area recently, having lived there for over two years and walking around there a few weeks ago, I really felt that the area is dying, – with the closure of the two Spars and Thomas Reids, and the huge amount of empty buildings, it has a really desolate air about it lately

Dublin City Council needs to actually clean the area regularly, it’s a kip, especially at the weekends. It’s also full of knackers, and given the fact that there actually isn’t any reason for people to go down there (except maybe for the Lighthouse but they need to promote themselves more I think), it’s no surprise that’s its struggling.

The Friday market would be a good idea if it was on at the weekend, and if it was actually value for money – pastries for 5 euro? No thanks!

so what the eta for the other market area?

Am doing an article for this week’s Tribune about Smithfield: its success or failures. If anybody has any thoughts in particular they want aired, you can pm me or post here.

You should at least mention the dreadful public domain at the bottom of the square. It was never even attempted to make an effort down there. Pretty disgraceful when you consider that the main public transport connection to the square is at this end.
in fact thats surely a key failure of the area, the lack of permeability of public transport

@kefu wrote:

Am doing an article for this week’s Tribune about Smithfield: its success or failures. If anybody has any thoughts in particular they want aired, you can pm me or post here.

I will look forward to reading your article.
I think it will be interesting to know what people think sucess to be!

Clearly the Developers and the Council had some vision of sucess, but even if they had achieved what they wanted (the developers mostly have) is that really sucess?

I actually think that the whole problem with Smithfield is that the visions (and there are more than one) for the development of the area are flawed. Not just because the Council and Developers have diverging interests, but because the plans never really contained anything in them that would achieve what residents and dubliners would concider sucess.

As a Dubliner I think Smithfield is a wasteland, I don’t want to live there, and the only reason I ever go there is to go to the Lighthouse Cinema, and secretly I am hoping that the Cinema either moves or a rival opens up in either a village in the city or the city center itself.

I would like to see Smithfield as a sucessful urban village but to achieve that you need an authority similar to the DDDA with a clear focus, they have achieved great things in the docklands even if the vision is a bit sterile.

I think some of the posts about Smithfield are far too negative; it’s not perfect, but needs to be seen as ‘work in progress’ rather than as a fully-functioning urban village (a complex phenomenon in any case). To describe it as a wasteland seems especially bizarre given the amount of recent intervention . OK, it’s a big empty open space framed by architecture of varying scale and quality; it has had an attempted commercial input which has not all flourished (and we are in the middle of a recession); and some people seem wedded to a vision of this area that imbues the previous range of uses – fruit/horse market particularly – with a ridiculous veneer of nostalgia.
The glass is actually half (or three-quarters) full. Build it and they will come – eventually. It’s a great urban space waiting to happen, and happen it will. But it won’t happen if people are determined not to go there just to prove a point.

Thats a fair point johnglas but you cant deny that the energy with which the area was originally developed has long gone.

There is some nice feature architecture there (the zinc stacks of the Distillery building for example, and Smithfield Market is a very well put together scheme) but the private investment in the area wont continue unless concerted public efforts area made and for me that means tackling the public domain, tackling its conectivity and relevance to the wider city, and targetiing the remaining vacant sites (including the very large one between Church Street and the square. I note a planning application here for new hoardings and further archaeological digs so it seems this gap will remain for a while yet.

The trend towards anti social behaviour in the area is also quite pronouced with groups of druggies etc regularly congregating. God only knows what the toruists in the Maldron and Park hotels think of it all. Its really not very pleasant. I think the location of the Chidren’s Court here was also a big mistake in hindsight. The open space in front of it makes it much more likely for people to linger about before and after. I think the Court should be moved (apologies to all those kids who commit crimes).

The wider context also needs to be considered. The Markets, which never even got off the drawing board, must surely rate as a priority for regeneration. Even the markets building whcih was restored a few years back is falling into disrepair again. Likewise streets such as Church Street and Blackhall Place/ Manor Street and the stretch of Luas.

Hi Kefu,

• StephenC has a good point about lack of permeability by public transport – in particular the unreformed Dublin Bus routes via Stoneybatter still adhere to tramway routes from the 1930s, by going from the city centre up the quays and across a bridge onto Blackhall Place. To my mind it seems logical that with the redevelopment of Smithfield, some of these should have been rerouted by North King and Church Streets and via Fr. Matthew Bridge – hence delivering services to SF, rather than bypassing.
• Separately from what I understand, the developers rented out a massive “step-down” space out to the HSE for addicts, in the block adjoining the motor tax offices. I suspect they rented out in desperation for some kind of revenue, however my understanding is that the facility is far larger than purely that for local needs. Smithfield was already providing home to the children’s court and also the probation service – yet the cumulative effect of all of these in the one place, in the absence of living commercial space, has really made it a no-go area.
• Finally the tower, now closed for over two years, and the tall lamps unused, are really the final straw in terms of sending out all the wrong signals of dereliction and closure. These gave a sense of vibrancy that could be attractive to parents and their children, and while there may be issues about burning gas, there must be some inexpensive way to rehabilitate. Instead, idle and empty, these past attractions seem to compliment the stained and tatty awnings for the closed Park Hotel and convenience stores.

On the upside, in my opinion the Dice Bar and the Cobblestone pub continue to be successful, and imo Dice Bar has done more for regeneration of that area than the Luas – which imo has been counter-productive thru having been over-engineered and anti-pedestrian and anti-cyclist – please note the “no pedestrian” signs and barriers erected by Luas on pavements at Benburb and Church Streets – madness!

Thanks for all the responses. Not sure how much I will be able to fit in as have spoken to quite a few of the businesses in the area as well. Hopefully, it will give a fair picture otherwise.

@johnglas wrote:

I think some of the posts about Smithfield are far too negative . . . . and some people seem wedded to a vision of this area that imbues the previous range of uses – fruit/horse market particularly – with a ridiculous veneer of nostalgia.

I’m not letting you away with that johnglas, this is not about nostalgia. Smithfield was laid out and built as a market space and despite all the dereliction and decay it still retained vestiges of this market use until the planning authorities chose, in the late 1990s, to allow the total demolition and redevelopment of the west side. This killed off any connection with the 17th century origins of the urban space and erased all the subsequent layers. Continuity of use and fabric was thrown away. The place is not ‘Smithfield’ any more, now it’s just ‘Sandyford with cobblestones’, (as was stated on one of these threads before).

You’d be familiar with the Grass Market in Edinburgh! Similar size, shape, and origins to Smithfield. For sure it has more that it’s fair share of dodgy late 20th century apartment and hotel developments, but imagine if it was cleansed of any remaining structures from it’s original phase of construction, would it’s essential character survive?

I don’t think it would.

@johnglas wrote:

The glass is actually half (or three-quarters) full. Build it and they will come – eventually. It’s a great urban space waiting to happen, and happen it will. But it won’t happen if people are determined not to go there just to prove a point.

It’s not about letting time take it’s course and eventually it’ll all sort itself out, Smithfield as a legible 17th & 18th century development is gone and it’s soutside contemporary, Newmarket (in the Liberties) will follow it, if we don’t attempt to learn the lessons.

@StephenC wrote:

I think the location of the Chidren’s Court here was also a big mistake in hindsight. The open space in front of it makes it much more likely for people to linger about before and after. I think the Court should be moved (apologies to all those kids who commit crimes).

I understand the reasons for saying that, but it really would be an indictment of planning failure and civic decline if a minor judicial function like a children’s court couldn’t be located on the edge of a significant civic space because the attendants were impairing other uses of the space!

Whatever about the Post-Modern tendancies in the architecture of the Children’s Court, if only the philosophy of ‘urban repair’ had prevailed, Smithfield could have been a showcase for urban regeneration!

On the subject of dodgy planning; what was the idea of letting the new Church St. office block barge into the the vista of St Michan’s tower from Smithfield?

gunter: my point about the fruit market (in particular) was not about its existence, but where it operated from – I remember thrown-together warehouses, but perhaps I’m wrong – and the fact it was largely wholesale (and hence van- and lorry-dependant), with only a secondary retail element. I have no problem at all with that vast space being devoted to market use, but it should be a continental-style market rather than just cobbled together. (And the Markets are perfect for a proper indoor market along the lines of the English Market in Cork.) The horse market is more problematical, but it can sink or swim according to popular appeal.
You know well that I’m not for ‘just letting it happen’; there needs to be active promotion, management and design (do. for Newmarket), but any progress needs to build on what’s there not on some ‘might have been’, with additional investment as appropriate (agreed the Church St block is a howler). Everything is so S(not)NAFU at the moment that we’re looking at everything from the bottom of an empty glass at the end of a very long binge. That’s not normal.

PS The Grassmarket is famous for drugs, hoors and booze and it’s largely taken up with carparking; I love it!

I think one of the biggest issues is that the redevelopment of the plaza area is unfinished – the liffey end of the plaza was left untouched until the luas line was completed and then… nothing. The whole thing is a lopsided mess and the derelict space left over after the luas was put through makes the whole thing a failure.

Of course the main question must be (outside of the Lighthouse, Cobblestone or Dice Bar) why would I want to leave the CBD? Where’s the draw elements etc

They were never quite sure what to do with Dublin’s Smithfield. Markets, concerts, ice rink and so on. In the end its just a wide open space that does not work. Was there on a Saturday evening at 5.30 when City centre 10 minutes away was packed. You would think there would some life in the area. Not at all. All that were around were a few drunks and a couple of people crossing the square on route to town.

But the new Lighthouse Cinema is great.

There’s a current planning application (Reg. no. 3045/09) in for the old Tully’s Tiles premises, 56 – 58 Smithfield and 1 – 6 Haymarket.

pic of model in the planning lobby.

Looks like Smithfield will be getting an uncomplicated, seven storey, square, office block, that’ll really liven things up!

Until Tully’s Tiles extended their corner premises in the early 1980s, with a blank concrete warehouse, this was the site of three splendid former ‘Dutch Billys’, including one of the tallest in Dublin, no. 4 Haymarket 😡

a 1950s aerial view from the south with the rear of 4,5 & 6 Haymarket outlined in red.

Smithfield is a complete failure. I lived there in 2001. Even then most of the commerical space was empty. In fact the space opposite the chimney has been empty since it was built, despite the fact that it faces onto the sq.

What happened to using the space as a concert venue, there’s a control box at the south end of the sq built especially for concerts.

The area will continue to decline when the criminal courts move to parkgate street dragging much of the day trade away. The siting of the new courts was a huge mistake and should never have been allowed. It should have been kept in the ‘legal quarter’. The site of the new offices, the Kings building, or the brown field site beside it should have been used.

I would tend to side with johnglas’s argument that Smithfield is a work in progress, the only problem being that the ‘work’ halted some years ago and is unlikely to pick up again for the foreseeable future. The loss of the original fabric of this, one of the most ancient planned quarters of the city, is deeply regrettable (Franc Myles’ storytelling regarding the contents of its former inhabitants’ cesspits being particularly illuminating), but we must not let that drag down what we currently have (whatever that may be), while also allowing this history to inform the future use of the square.

Two issues stand out for me, other than the many mentioned above which I’d broadly concur with. Firstly, the new Markets, when/if/ever they open, will act as the critical link between the city core and Smithfield. Frankly, the long-term health of Smithfield is almost entirely dependent on this project; in the interim, I agree an open air market is the way to go to get bodies over there. An urban quarter, however attractive, cannot sustain itself in isolation from its regional setting within a city. If Smithfield presented the most beautiful and vibrant urban scene in Dublin, it would still require connectivity with the centre to achieve its maximum potential. The Markets is the critical link between Capel Street and Smithfield to revitalise the area, while also acting as a draw in itself with knock-on effects for Smithfield. (And agreed Stephen the results of the recent restoration of the main building are sadly fading already).

The other, related, problem as I see it is that Smithfield is completely disconnected from the south side of the Liffey – constituting at least a third of its catchment area. All focus is always placed on the east-west movement dilemma, but north-south connectivity from the commercial and residential zone of Dame Street, Christchurch, Cornmarket and the wider Liberties is an absolute disaster. I won’t go near Smithfield, in spite of it being a cobblestone’s throw across the water, because it is a nightmare to get to. The traffic management of the quays, coupled with the headwrecker that is the environs of the Four Courts, makes this a no-go area for southsiders. A number of the quay junctions don’t even have pedestrian crossings, never mind the chemical lung-filling, minute-plus waits at every set of lights one encounters. It couldn’t be made less attractive if it was tried. Even for myself, as an ardent battler against the tides of the ‘public’ realm in this city (and with plenty of visual stimulation en route), I just refuse to go over there from the south side. It’s just not worth the stress of it all. Thus, for most people I can only imagine that it’s northside access only, and Luas or nothing.

Hi Graham, I thought you were a northsider!

But anyway, you make very good and interesting points but I am wondering…
you describe the ridiculous unpleasantness of travelling to and around Smithfield (on foot) and its a great point, however, why would you want to travel there in the first place?
To buy some bananas?…. I think not.
I mean even if it was pedestrian friendly and well connected what reason would anyone have to travel there? There is no draw..unless you are seeking drug or alcohol dependance treatment, a drivers license, a fight or a day in court.

Well this is only too true. Aside from The Lighthouse, there really is no draw for the average citizen. But this is because Smithfield is a work in progress; as things stand it’s a residential area, which by definition is somewhere an outsider has no reason to frequent. The odd bewildered tourist has greater cause to attend than locals, and if shown what they were in for from the outset, they wouldn’t bother either. For citizens there are no cultural draws. There is no retail of note. There are no services. There are few commercial/office uses. Therefore there are no people. But this can change if the square and its hinterlands can be resolved in the longer term (though how the suburban housing on the eastern side can be ‘managed’ is beyond me – it should never have been permitted).

In the interim, a market is definitely the way to go. It could be an especially vibrant spot on designated summer nights, with a special evening market with a festival-like atmosphere, the cinema, al fresco eating and drinking – a real night out in a neat package. It can’t be that difficult to cobble together with a bit of guidance from the planning authority.

@ac1976 wrote:

I thought you were a northsider!

I’m neither! I’m omnipresent 🙂

@hutton wrote:

ie no emigration museum, no legal museum, no craft centre, or sculpture centre – all of which were scheduled but never happened 🙁

emigration museum? legal museum? sculpture centre…

*drooool*

Droool?…sounds like the most bnoring load of old tripe. Who on earth would visit a Legal Museum?

@StephenC wrote:

Droool?…sounds like the most bnoring load of old tripe. Who on earth would visit a Legal Museum?

Exactly, I believe the current plan is to locate the Legal Museum in Kilmainham Court House which is adjacent to Kilmainham Jail.
It closed last year and I guess the OPW need something to use it for, the interior is largely original (although in disrepair). The only reason people would visit it would be as part of another attraction and to see a restored Victorian Court House, I’m sure it would add something to the experience there, but as an attraction by itself would be very limited.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0803/kilmainham.html

I guess we might xpect this to open in 2016 as part of the centinary of the 1916 Rising, no rush for the moment.

Does anyone know what they plan on doing with the Special Criminal Court Building after it moves to the new Courts Complex at Parkgate Street?

With the right exhibits a law museum could be a big draw. You could stretch from the tribal law of Celtic Ireland to modern Irish law with landmark artifacts or documents on display.

Could easily be the most boring museum in the world too of course.

How about an ‘Outlaw’ museum?

How big would that have to be?

How about bringing back public hanging?

Hang the bankers! Hang em high!

Maybe just have public stocks in Smithfield, put a few developers or Taoisigh in them.
It might generate the economic boost that the fruit markets need to survive?
It would draw massive crowds to Smithfield.
It would give the public a sense of satisfaction with the justice system.

A narrow plank could also be put across the Liffey at the bottom of Smithfield and criminals could be made to walk it; a solution to the North/South divide in that area with crowds on both sides of the river shaking the plank!

Would that solve most of Smithfields problems?!?

Perhaps when the Heuston plan is complete and those developments planned for around Collins Barracks are finished the crowds will be pulled west enough for Smithfield to see some interest.

.. Please nobody tell me the Collins Barracks area developments have been cancelled..

Of course! whatever it was. Everything’s been cancelled…didn’t you get the memo?

From today’s Irish Times….

DUBLIN CITY Council is to undertake a multimillion euro project to finally complete Smithfield Plaza, 10 years after it was originally constructed.

However, it said there are no funds for the planned relocation of Smithfield horse fair.
The large open plaza was built in 1999 at a cost of £3.5 million as the centre piece of the regeneration of the run-down northwest inner city area. However, the southern end of the plaza, through which the Luas line now runs, was never finished and remains a jumble of concrete, tarmac and cobblestones. The plaza has been vastly under-utilised, and is probably best known for its annual ice-skating rink and the monthly horse market, which has been condemned by the Dublin Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (DSPCA).

The council is seeking about €2 million in EU funding, which will be matched by council funds, for the project which it hopes to complete by December 2010. It will be completed at a later date if EU funding is not forthcoming.

In addition to finishing the plaza it intends to provide water, drainage and power facilities on the existing space to support events and markets. It also plans to plant trees and other greenery and to provide children’s amenities on the space.

The Smithfield horse market drew attention last Sunday after an injured horse was sold to an 11-year-old boy for €8. The DSPCA has said the sale of neglected and sick animals at the market is endemic and the organisation has campaigned for the closure of the market for several years.

The council has also long sought the removal of the fair, but has been blocked by an ancient market right of horse traders to hold their sales on the land. The council did temporarily ban the fair in 2002 after a horse bolted and ran on to the quays, where it crashed into a car occupied by a woman and a child. However, the traders returned to the plaza, citing their market right.

The council has received legal advice that it could only close the fair, and extinguish the market right, if it provided a suitable alternative site. It had identified a site in the Ballymun/Finglas area, which it had begun assessing early last year. It now emerges that the council has to abandon plans for this site because of a lack of funds.

“We would have required capital funding to acquire the site, to construct the facilities, and to build things like running areas and car parking, and we would have needed funding to run the site, and in the current climate it couldn’t be done,” Charlie Lowe, manager of the central area of the city, said.

The council was still determined to remove the fair from Smithfield and was now seeking an “alternative legal remedy” for extinguishing the market right.

“The whole thing is a complete mess, but it was the local authority that allowed the market right all those years ago and it behoves the local authority to come up with a remedy… It’s on our desk and we have to deal with it.”

In the meantime, the council intends to press ahead with the completion of the plaza between Haymarket and Aran Street West and the improvement of the current facilities of the plaza.

Two words…… AT LAST!

Also what about this horsemarket lark….cant they pass a Byelaw to prohibit the market. Or request an Act of the Oireachtas. There must be some way to extingush the market right.

@StephenC wrote:

Also what about this horsemarket lark….cant they pass a Byelaw to prohibit the market. Or request an Act of the Oireachtas. There must be some way to extingush the market right.

Sure what’s 1000 years of history….:rolleyes: Have you any idea how many tourists come and see this, it needs promoting (and true, policing) – it’s just a shame tourists have no reason to remain in Smithfield after the horse fair..

“The whole thing is a complete mess, but it was the local authority that allowed the market right all those years ago and it behoves the local authority to come up with a remedy… It’s on our desk and we have to deal with it.”

Not sure if they mean the Horse Market or Smithfield is a mess?

I really welcome them sorting out Smithfield, but what the hell is going to cost €4m to provide “water, drainage and power facilities on the existing space” and plant a few trees??

Presumably there is already water available through the mains, power runs to the lights, and last time I checked the drains sort of worked.

My fear will be that this will be an excuse to dig up the cobble setts again, remove them on the pretext of ‘drainage’ and create another crap ‘urban plaza’ like the one on Dame Street, full of concrete ‘planters’.

What’s really needed is to take the land off Jameson or whoever currently being used as a cut rate surface car park and turn that into Smithfield’s Garden Square – there’s passive overlooking and CCTV at the Luas stop if they open up the railings, plenty of mature trees there already to get the thing rolling. (and get the rest of the cars off the square for good – there’s a massive underground public carpark that is half empty under Smithfield Market)

Opposite, they should never have given Danniger permission to knock the ESB substation and give that over to an Arts organisation as was originally promised. Then sort out “The Hole”, and the strip of land that was CPO’d as part of the Luas works and is now a litter trap and a source of revenue for Pat Egan’s crappy IPA posters.

I hope to God there’s a consultation/planning process before they make it worse…

Just a further thought about the Horse Fair, if they have to move it – why not to the Liberties? – Newmarket would be appropriate I would think…and give Bord Failté a call…

Speaking of Smithfield, ‘Bow St’, a film showing at The Joinery on Arbour Hill at the moment is well worth seeing.
http://someblindalleys.com/index.php/tag/the-joinery/

@Smithfield Resi wrote:

Just a further thought about the Horse Fair, if they have to move it – why not to the Liberties? – Newmarket would be appropriate I would think…and give Bord Failté a call…

The horse market is an extremely depressing, cruel affair not suited to any central Dubln location and should be closed down on animal welfare groounds alone.

The animal welfare issues can be dealt with by adequate supervision of the fair. Isn’t it better to have a central location to do this and check on the welfare of the animals in the process rather than scouting the country to find abuses?

@Smithfield Resi wrote:

The animal welfare issues can be dealt with by adequate supervision of the fair. Isn’t it better to have a central location to do this and check on the welfare of the animals in the process rather than scouting the country to find abuses?

I personally feel the vast majority of people attending the fair have no business owning a horse. If it was motor vehicles people were trading in a similar manner or condition the whole thing would have been closed down years ago.
I see your point about controlling the process but I think it’s a ‘tradition’ worth letting go of. It’s a pitiful sight not worthy of any touristy dressing up. That’s my urban, wooly liberal take on it.

Back on topic though- the city is lacking a decent equestrian themed piece of public art and Smithfield is the ideal spot for such a potentially gargantuanly scaled folly. let’s keep the real ponies where they can be properly cared for by capable owners.

I agree with tommyt, Smithfield Resi…the horse fair is a sham. Its a disgrace to allow it to continue because of some legal nicety. 1,000 years of history or not. If its necessary to continue a horsefair then it should be at a proper modern facility, just like a mart. And why on earth is it needed in the centre of a city! I cant imagine any tourists being interested in seeing 11 y/o boys being sold malnourised, poorly treated horses.

On the issue of the plans to finsih the square… I totally agree that €4m is a big budget. I would be interesrted to see the plans as well and I imagine a public consultation will take place. Another big site not to be forgotten is the triangular site bounded by Church Street and the Square. What is the story with this site?

Recently granted permission to demolish the derelict structures on the site and contineu seemingly endless archaeological excavations.
link here

Moving the Children’s Court would be one means of removing knackers from the area. It’s one of the most menacing parts of Dublin at any time of the day or night. Not in the same Looney Tunes/Night of the Living Dead sense as Eden Quay… but still bad.

There’s precisely four reasons to visit Smithfield at present.

1 – If you’re a minor being arraigned on a criminal charge.

2 – If you’re a tourist doing the Jameson tour.

3 – If you’re a cinephile going to the Lighthouse.

Or

4 – If you’re going to the lovely Fresh supermarket.

One side of the square is luxury apartments. One side is derelict. One side has three storey Corporation(?) houses – and is mostly derelict – and one side is cut off from the rest by a road and Luas line and is mostly officey stuff in any case.

There are cars strewn about the square. There’s no seating worth mentioning. There’s no attractions particularly worth listing. The only attractions for a local are the moderately pricey supermarket and an up market cinema.

Abject failure for any urban space.

The family law courts are there too, so throw in

5. Marital breakdown

Oh just though of another, the Motor office where u go to get your Driving license.

6. Drivers license applications.

so your saying it needs a good cleanse

I think the Children’s Court is a problem here. Too much space to hang around in before/after hearings.
I also think the area needs more apartments and more of a family focus.
These large preipheral squares rarely work successfully in my opinion. It just too difficult to create enough activity outside city centre.

@StephenC wrote:

I think the Children’s Court is a problem here. Too much space to hang around in before/after hearings.
I also think the area needs more apartments and more of a family focus.
These large preipheral squares rarely work successfully in my opinion. It just too difficult to create enough activity outside city centre.

Smithfield isn’t as peripheral as you might think. The “legal quarter” is all around it, the Luas runs through it and the Guinness Brewery, Collins Barracks, the Phoenix Park and some great old suburbs like Phibsboro are right beside it.

The quays are at their most pleasant from the Four Courts up to Hueston. It’s a sedate part of town, to be sure. But sedate is good. Smithfield needs to be given a point and an immediate hinterland. It has precisely the same problem as O’Connell Street; it’s a crossroads to other points with very little to commend it on its own merits.

Smithfield on ‘Culture Night’ last Friday . . . . a hub of inactivity, but well lit!

Tut – keeping the rabble at bay was the Smithfield culture event.

I used to live in Smithfield 15 yrs ago. It has certainly improved since then. The horse fair is occasional and I only noticed it on a couple of occasions. It makes the area more interesting although the more ISPCA type policing the better. The children’s court has to go somewhere and many of the attendees are locals.

Not every area has to be a tourist destination. The population has increased greatly with plenty more private tenants. Population and transport links create a market for more facilities. The planners can be blamed for allowing development that is unsuitable for families and resulting in a narrow demographic of young working tenant residents. This leaves the area quiet during the day.

I preferred living there to temple bar where the noise was too much at night.

To improve smithfield in the future, I would like to see new accommodation suitable for families (large 2/3 bed apartments that overlook green enclosed common play areas, segregated from cars).

In immediate proximity of Smithfield is the Bolton Street area which also suffers from dereliction. The students of third year in Bolton Street spent the year addressing the problem by shifting the proposed site for DIT Grangegorman towards the city to create an urban campus serving the student population and the community.
They have a book launch and exhibition at the end of October but you can see some of the work online.

http://three.dublinschoolofarchitecture.com

@Michae1 wrote:

In immediate proximity of Smithfield is the Bolton Street area which also suffers from dereliction. The students of third year in Bolton Street spent the year addressing the problem by shifting the proposed site for DIT Grangegorman towards the city to create an urban campus serving the student population and the community.
They have a book launch and exhibition at the end of October but you can see some of the work online.

http://three.dublinschoolofarchitecture.com

Very impressive Michael.

Is it simply an exercise or do you consider it a viable alternative to the MRY Plan for DIT/HSE at Grangegorman?

Bolton Street, should use their immersion in gritty urbanism to their advantage instead of following UCD into starchitect gazing.

There might be token zany shapes, but is this not 1970s planning?

Do we want Church Street to go underground at Constitution Hill?
Is there someone out there who thinks tunnel portals are not one of the most damaging things you can put in an urban context?
Do we need more grass in the city centre?

All of this stuff has been tried before and it’s incredibly destructive of real urbanism. We need to learn how to mend the city, not replace it with Sandyford.

I don’t want to be discouraging.

@Michae1 wrote:

In immediate proximity of Smithfield is the Bolton Street area which also suffers from dereliction. The students of third year in Bolton Street spent the year addressing the problem by shifting the proposed site for DIT Grangegorman towards the city to create an urban campus serving the student population and the community.
They have a book launch and exhibition at the end of October but you can see some of the work online.

http://three.dublinschoolofarchitecture.com

To be honest I wasn’t too enamoured with this. The forensic level of analysis is welcome but I find calling a decent, functional urban neighbourhood with organically diversifying uses a ‘wasteland’ to be irritatingly bourgeois.
On one level there is talk of Kreuzberg and its invigorating squatter counterculture then we get a fairly typical city ‘fix’ based on dated ideas of urban renewal.
Don’t mean to piss on anyone’s chips and I appreciate the huge amount of work a student has to put into such a project but it’s analysing urban renewal from a very narrow prism, yet demonstrating an overreach regarding what architecture can deliver for real communities.

@StephenC wrote:

I agree with tommyt, Smithfield Resi…the horse fair is a sham. Its a disgrace to allow it to continue because of some legal nicety. 1,000 years of history or not. If its necessary to continue a horsefair then it should be at a proper modern facility, just like a mart. And why on earth is it needed in the centre of a city!

On the other hand why should it be moved to down the road from where I live (as planned). It’s always been there, why move it? I agree on the welfare front but also believe that a centralised location should facilitate, rather than inhibit it.

Smithfield Plaza to be completed
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1015/1224256691498.html

anyone know what the completed plazza will look like?

No matter what it looks like, without more to *do* there a la the Lighthouse, it won’t be seen.

Can’t understand why they don’t have a good, top quality, daily covered market a la Granville Island Market up there permanently.

Droool?…sounds like the most bnoring load of old tripe. Who on earth would visit a Legal Museum?

Perhaps….perhaps Not….

One of the best visits I ever made was to the Museum of Irish Music and Culture which had a brief existence in The Chief O Neill`s complex.

It was IMO the best interactive and informative exposition of Irish Music to be found in this City.
Sadly,it died a death due to all of the Smithfield Factors so accurately depicted in this thread.
The final nail in it`s coffin came when the Museum`s creators were asked to “Funk it up” and consider allowing it to be used as a Nightclub in order to stimulate night-trade income.

In the current economic and social climate it is debatable whether Smithfield can in fact be saved from the Sandyford effect…ie: demolition and the return of the land to largely agrarian purposes…. 😉

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8310910.stm

Can’t help but feel like Smithfield is the ideal location for a southbank type area in Dublin, but in order to do that it’s going to take more than just posh lamps, rather actual things to do and buildings of substance like the above.

There is a path of vacancy all the way from Smithfield to the fruitmarket: The aforementioned land beside the Luas line bring us down to Church St, then jink north through the large vacant site behind the Bridewell Garda station and that virtually brings you to Greek Street (need a bit of the District Court car park to get through to Greek St). There, the unattractive River house on Chancery Street is awaiting demolition. That backs onto the demolished fish market.
Presumably all this will be Namaed in the next few months and surely someone with vision (not me) can imagine some way of better connecting up Smithfield with Capel St/Henry St area so that it isn’t as desolate as it is now?
I’m having trouble viewing the Bolton St. students’ proposal but it looks a bit more radical than just redeveloping these existing vacant lots in some coherent way.

Hi All,

Does anyone know where I can find details of the Smithfield Sq redevelopment online?

I know the proposed plans and some pictures are on display in a window in one of the empty units in the Sq itself but does anyone where this information can be found online?

Thanks

Maybe smithfield needs a permenant ferris wheel!

Do a search on the City Council’s planning search page for Smithfield Public Realm Enhancement. Its an application at present.

@Bago wrote:

Maybe smithfield needs a permenant ferris wheel!

don’t go puttin’ ideas in their head :rolleyes:

@Quillber wrote:

don’t go puttin’ ideas in their head :rolleyes:

And the liffey cable car could run like a bicycle chain between the smithfield and point depot ferris wheels.

DCC granted themselves permission for the refurbishment / completion of the square – Search%20Criteria%20>%204569/09. Check out the number of 3rd party submissions to it in ‘view documents’ … lot of interest. But no appeal right since it’s a Part 8 application. As can be seen in the photo below, work has just started at the top of the square. Some greenery is being put in.

There seems to be no formal copy of the ‘Smithfield Quarter Enhancement Scheme’ available online, but there’s a scanned copy of it here in the documentation with that planning app. – http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00294646.pdf

Nice to see that the Scheme is drawing attention to the significance of the surviving old streetscape at the top of Smithfield (Cobblestone pub etc.) Section 2.0 seeks to “identify, understand and conserve the smaller and finer grain of the earlier C17th/C18th building typologies with their long linear arrangement of the building plots which are embodied in the street-fronted structures at the north end of the Square/North King Street … This historic streetscape is of huge historical and architectural import as it provides the original scale to the C18th market place.”

And speaking of that very streetscape, this horror proposal for Nos. 82-83 North King Street was granted permission by Dublin City Council (never!) last year, appealed by An Taisce and has now been overturned by the Bord – http://pleanala.ie/casenum/235886.htm

It was for a replacement infill building on the site of No. 82, demolition and facade retention of the early-20th century Delaney’s pub at No. 83 (which is Georgian behind the facade), then uniting the two under a whopping Supervalu-Portlaoise mansard roof wiping out pitched roofs and chimney stacks to No. 83. If you look through the drawings, it was actually not a bad scheme in terms of accommodation provision, with a design around a courtyard, but as a vision of how to develop historic streetscape grain, it was fairly horrific stuff.

The streetscape here really is of value and needs careful repair and infill, maintaining existing qualities. So much of this kind of thing was lost – on the Quays and elsewhere – that we should carefully cherish remaining areas. They are the essence of urban Dublin. The restoration of No. 81 by architects for their offices stands as an example of what can be done.

The Cobblestone pub ought to put some effort into the presentation of their building. It’s in an awful state with painted brick and mismatched half-PVC / half-sash windows and lack of upkeep. Suppose they think because they’re a ‘cool old kip’ pub it’s ok to look like that …. a bit of conservation work wouldn’t go astray.

Devin – my (failing) memory tells me there was a scheme for the cobblestone to move out 5/6 years ago and the corner to be redeveloped…..

Can’t find any recent planning application for it …. maybe it was a mooted scheme published somewhere that never went to planning?

Some limited works to Smithfield taking place then. I suppose it is August and even in these straightened times the builders have their traditional holidays.

I see there is also an application for works to the former Chief O’Neills. The plan appears to provide for the reopening of the hotel as “tourist accommodation” which is welcome. The application has been granted 2741/10

The terrace at the top of the square is a big challenge for both owners and the city. A revolving fund would be a very practical way of restoring these buildings to their former glory. DCC’s abysmal attitude to the site shouldn’t come as a surprise….these buildings have been decaying for years.

Don’t suppose they plan to complete the other end of the square in any kind of coherent fashion as part of these works?

This is the point of the works. Check out the plans in Devin’s link.

There’s been alot more progression since that picture was taken.
Every single paving slab and cobblestone has been removed from that area.

From what I’ve read, they paln to put a new dublin bikes bike stand and a childrens play area there.
Its the southern end of the square that needs the most work.
I wonder if they’ll start on that after the northern end is completed.

Smithfield in 2000. The McGarry NiEanaigh remaking of the square has been done but the west side is not yet developed.

A couple from the same time – during the dig on the site… apols for the crappy digital – top of the range at the time

Nice. I was still on neg at the time :”>

Some more pics of the buildings at the top corner:

It was was totally unecessary to demolish that Victorian pub, Bo Derrols. It was just runaway boom excess. A corner historic building like that should be an asset in your scheme. If the Thomas Reads had opened there instead of where it did, it would probably be still open, Thomas Read’s other problems notwithstanding. I new some new sports type bar has opened where it was.

If ya heard developer Paddy Kelly in the paper recently, jaysus your heart would bleed … his indignation about people’s feelings toward Smithfield ……. which in any case is more about Smithfield generally than what he built.

The cement-rendered one to the right of the pub was an early building – the tell-tale corner chimney breast was visible through the shop window ….. mass bulldozing around here.

As they were coming down, 2003 direction:

more from the archaeological dig

Great record. Don’t think ANYTHING there was kept, was it? any pits or anything ..

A warehouse on the Queen Street side:

Thanks a lot for those pics guys. a timely reminder of what was lost.

Incidently, I’m not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere but life is definitely coming back into Smithfield. The vacant commercial premises are slowly being taken over by artists. Several spaces along the western side have had temporary art events. At least 3 of them are (semi?) permanent. There are daily life drawing classes at Studio 54, graphic design classes at Block T Cultural Centre (the run down ‘Chinatown’ building/formerly Tullys Tiles) to name but a few. I passed by an alcohol-free disco one night two that looked interesting in another vacant retail unit. Theres some drama group in another one. The lighthouse cinema seems to be busy at least the odd few times ive been there recently. I’ve heard that Chief O’Neills Hotel is going to re-open as a hostel. Anyone else heard this? And finally, Thomas Reads has re-opened under a new name – presumably new owner as well seeing as they no longer exist as a going concern.

So…three cheers for the recession!!!…the Smithfield ‘cultural quarter’ can now finally bear fruit 🙂

Thanks for those pics. Looks like some quite nice building were actually lost, better in fact then alot of the 18/19th century dross that is currently listed!

Just looking through the thread, it seems that the dreams of a European style piazza are just as far off as when I read about them in a Times supplement when I was in school circa 1997!!

TBH, I actually wouldn’t have minded the 23 storey tower, if it meant a more dense footprint and the retention of a couple of those buildings…..rather then the squat 13 storey slab and all the 8 storey monoliths we ended up with.

Also, I will be lit upon for saying this, but the childrens court does Smithfield no favours….just fills it with more reasons not to go there!

C

Observers of the cobble sett flexible vs rigid laying technique controversy may wish to amble over to Smithfield at the moment. The setts are being relaid in what I would consider to be very odd manner (set in concrete, not sure what the jointing plan is) which appears to be taking them ages..

..by contrast I have seen a Prague cobble expert lay almost the same area in a day and a half (including a stunning coat of arms set into the pavement portion).

Thanks, S Resi …. set in concrete? shudder. Even the TB rigid laying was on sand …

Smithfield Market about to rise – Georgian grain, North King Street, in the background.

Smithfield Market about to rise – Georgian grain, Queen Street, in the background.

And done.

There was a little food market at the bottom of Smithfield today. Oh, picture of urban health. Just don’t go to Winetavern Street or High Street:

more great pictures of the ‘urbicide’ that took place. (the term is valid for the time being as the place has been dead since they redeveloped it).

glad to see that friday afternoon market hasnt died a death. i still dont get the time slot though. employed people in ireland go to the pub after work on a friday and unemployed people simply cant afford the luxury of organic bread and hummus.

I meant to post this earlier

The exhibition is at ‘The Complex’, 18 – 21 Smithfield.

I have to say that the Smithfield public domain works are progressing at a snails pace. All that has been done to date is the lifting and relaying of cobbles at the northern end and some new lighting. Why is it taking so long to get some steam behind this work. The press release for the scheme stated that the works would be completed in December 2010. That must have been a typo because there is no way they will have gotten even a third of the way there by then.

The condition of this area of the city is truly awful. Walking around today it just struck me how poorly maintained are many of the smaller streets of this area. Most haven’t seen anything in the way of investment or even routine maintenance since the 1980s. Old style lamps rust and decay, broken pavements, poor street surfaces with many cobbles missing, poles and bollards aplenty. Its shockingly bad really. How come the City Council just continue to ignore whole swathes of the city centre.

As one walks down towards the Market area, little changes. The newly refurbished park at Chancery Place is very smart but so much of the area is decrepit. HARP is but a distance memory around here.

would be completed in December 2010

I understand they got an extension. Although the cobble relaying seems to be taking forever…should have got some central europeans in with some sand to lay a flexible base rather than all this fussing about with mortar bases.

The residents got an update from their local councillors about this. it’s now being carried out in 2 parts, first to be completed by end of 2010/start 2011 and then second part to start in mid 2011.

i’m holding judgement till it’s completed..total coin toss with the council as to how things will pan out!

smithfield represents dublins first move towards what berlin currently offers its artists and students………good things will come from the recession, will just take time!

@jinx9000 wrote:

smithfield represents dublins first move towards what berlin currently offers its artists and students………good things will come from the recession, will just take time!

I think that is more by luck than judgement…

@Smithfield Resi wrote:

I think that is more by luck than judgement…

I would take luck any day of the week over some CC attempt to artisanship an area!

There would seem to be some confusion at Smithfield about Parking…

..and yet we seem to have two new spaces…

The odd thing is that these are not accessible by car…yet they seen to require a pole…

Finished to DCC’s exacting requirements when installed on an historic (protected some might say) cobbled sett. Local artistic types have added to the dynamic appeal of these bare poles in the centre of “Dublin’s Civic Space”

Its brother also has a similar high quality of finish:

Other examples are close by;

A nice grouping here – 3 within a 4 foot circle

They nicely complement the “credit where it is due” moterway sized signage for the project

Nice reminder at the base of those who are working long hours to bring asphalt to the square..

Lots of it around…

The improvements are amazing….

Just in case you don’t know where to put the money at a 12 car parking zone

or where we put that pesky motortax office..

…it’s over here

And finally Smithfield now has a gun emplacement (to shoot at horses??)

Is there no-one watching how in excess of €2m in grant money is being spend in this shoddy fashion??

Great posts… I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at this disaster in Smithfield!

You are not being entirely fair Smithfield Resi. The car space you highlight is the old parking area which is to be replaced by a new landscaped area. The empty poles probably relate to those and are likely to be removed once works on this section commence. The tarmac lump are a result of the removal of light stands and I imagine they too will be repaired with cobbles. The work is undoubtedly shoddy looking at present but it is a work in process. Signage is a mess all over the city: I see a new post for the interminably delayed wayfinder scheme, perhaps that will negate the need for these other fingerposts. I don’t know what the “bunker” is for….all will be revealed by summer.

The notice about parking isn’t really conflicting….at the end of the day its saying that you cant park on the square and that if you do you will be clamped. No doubt some residents don’t see the square as the big civic space that it is meant to be. And sometimes our council don’t either.

The main part of the southern section of the square has been cleared of trees and cobbles ready for relaying. A notice says that works will be completed by end of summer 2011.

You are not being entirely fair Smithfield Resi. The car space you highlight is the old parking area which is to be replaced by a new landscaped area. The empty poles probably relate to those and are likely to be removed once works on this section commence.

Fair point on the car park space (I was having a bit of a dig) but the poles have been recently added – (a quick browse of Google maps confirms) and from what I can tell from the plans it is intended that the area below where the poles are located is where the landscaping will be – so I’m guessing they are staying (and there is no excuse for the concreting in of cobble setts)

I fail entirely to understand why the green is needed here. CPO of the Irish Distiller surface car park (dig them out an underground car park and create a peoples park next to the Luas would be my approach)

The tarmac lump are a result of the removal of light stands and I imagine they too will be repaired with cobbles.

I would hope so too, but DCC don’t have a good record on repair and reinstatement.

The work is undoubtedly shoddy looking at present but it is a work in process.

In process indeed, it just seems some of the work is ‘finished’ – look at the amount of redundancy in the amount of poles installed for the parking space. Roads and Traffic must have shares in the galvanised pole industry.

Signage is a mess all over the city: I see a new post for the interminably delayed wayfinder scheme, perhaps that will negate the need for these other fingerposts. I don’t know what the “bunker” is for….all will be revealed by summer.

The problem as I see it is that the solutions being offered for poor signage are to erect yet more…(is it really that hard to find a parking machine (why not some discreet brass arrows into the kerbing pointing to the nearest machine??)

The notice about parking isn’t really conflicting….at the end of the day its saying that you cant park on the square and that if you do you will be clamped. No doubt some residents don’t see the square as the big civic space that it is meant to be. And sometimes our council don’t either.

I never really got as satisfactory answer from the City architects as to why surface parking was needed at all..there’s a 1000 space car park 75m away from here under Smithfield Market. I also asked why, as 3 phase power was being put in, could these space not be reserved for electric vehicle charging (great spot next to the luas and dublinbikes stand. Whilst it was agreed that this was a great idea, the consulatation process was merely a sap to give an air of consulatation. I fear the play area will be a disaster, and take no account for what urban dwellers actually want and need from this space.

The main part of the southern section of the square has been cleared of trees and cobbles ready for relaying. A notice says that works will be completed by end of summer 2011.

They were meant to have the whole lot completed by end of Dec 2010, so had to go crying back to the EU. I have never seen cobble work proceed so slowly as they dragged out the relaying of the cobbles at the top of the square. If the rest of this work proceeds at that pace, it will be Dec 2011 before this is completed. I’m also concerned that they will take the opportunity to demolish the red brick former market police station (ESB substation) at the bottom of the square.

This square is rapidly losing any cohesive sense of a civic public space…

I cant disagree with anything you say here Smithfield Resi! Its all a load of old cobblers – if you pardon the pun.

Re poles: If I am not mistaken DCC Planners put a condition on the works specifying a restrained approach to poles and signage. I must dig that out.
Lighting: Another small but annoying point- the lightstand installed at the pedestrian crossing on N King Street is different again from anything else on the street. One of the usual galvanised steel industrial park efforts so beloved of DCC Lighting. Why? Why not use the same repros as found further down the street. Why not use the opportunity to install a consistent lighting scheme all the way up N. King Street to Church Street? I dont get it. Why doesnt anyone see these small but inportant points.

Meanwhile, back to the bigger picture – the restaurant beside the Lighthouse closes…the area is littered with empty units….”development sites” lie undeveloped and falling into ruin and dereliction….. and no one really wants to go to Smithfield. Why would they? What for? I fear for the future of the Lighthouse (it looks like such an architectural white elephant now). Yesterday was the first time I have been there when the auditorium I was in was full (and I make a point of supporting the place). Its usually got a handful of people there and is utterly devoid of atmosphere. The cafe is more like a surgery and all that empty space makes its feel even more lifeless.

Dublin city centre is falling apart in my view….and I dont know what to do about it. It seems I am not alone.

If you don’t like Fresh’s prices – potentially good news, however if you like “The Complex” a disaster.

Tesco Express put in an application for the Complex units…4176/10

(no idea how to link with 1. The new archiseek baord software or 2. With the mess that is DCC tinkering with the planning search)

i dont often like fresh’s prices but i would always choose an irish supermarket over a british one, especially one as horrible as tesco. very sad news if it happens, particularly given that (if im not mistaken) those are the corner units and some of the best positioned on the square.

Im quite surprised at how aggressively Tesco are expanding given the current retail market. Thomas Street, Fairview, Fleet Street and now Smithfield. And all in competition with Centras or Spars and the like. I suppose it is welcome to see someone take the unit and its was always to be expected that a retailer like Tesco would turn up on Smithfield Sq – surely the whole point of all those retail units. Its strange about The Complex. I thought it would develop into something more permanent but it appears to be one of those informal cultural/arts hubs that are springing up about the city but without any sense of longevity or long term purpose. Still there is LOTS of space among the units of Smithfield Market, so they can surely change to a less high profile spot.

Still given all the problems with retail in the city centre its a big leap of faith by Tesco.

Hmmm its funny rereading my comment above in light of the Urban Party event…

Anyhow…another cultural anchor of Smithfield appears to be in trouble. The Lighthouse Cinema looks set to close by all account. Their rent has been raised by 100% to €200,000. Smithfield Market (what a misnomer) owner is seeking to have the cinema company wound up.

@StephenC wrote:

Im quite surprised at how aggressively Tesco are expanding given the current retail market. Thomas Street, Fairview, Fleet Street and now Smithfield. And all in competition with Centras or Spars and the like. I suppose it is welcome to see someone take the unit and its was always to be expected that a retailer like Tesco would turn up on Smithfield Sq – surely the whole point of all those retail units. Its strange about The Complex. I thought it would develop into something more permanent but it appears to be one of those informal cultural/arts hubs that are springing up about the city but without any sense of longevity or long term purpose. Still there is LOTS of space among the units of Smithfield Market, so they can surely change to a less high profile spot.

Still given all the problems with retail in the city centre its a big leap of faith by Tesco.

Whatever peoples views about Tesco , its good that at least somebody is filling up at least some of the ample empty space. Most of the units opening onto the Square are empty and if you take a walk around the corner all of the units in the complex that open onto side streets are completely vacant.

I have to say, I don’t really share your surprise regarding the failure of Smithfield as a regeneration effort. That area of town has basically been derelict since the 60s/70s when alot of the industries there either relocated or closed. Furthermore, it was never that salubrious to start off with. Perhaps the docks, especially on the Southside had a degree of success because of their proximity to the core D2 Business District and also to upmarket areas like D4.

For 4 years I traveled through Smithfield by Luas each day. Despite the Luas line and its effect on land values, and, the biggest property boom we are ever likely to see, very little redevelopment actually occured between Capel Street and Heuston. That which did either took ages to build or wasn’t completed before the crash. Furthermore, due to the urban landscape of the area, I have heard site aquisition could be fairly difficult, resulting in several large sites being left as wastelands because individuals owning tiny slivers of land refused to sell or lodged objections. This is particularly noticable at the huge empty fenced off chasm between the Four Courts and Phoenix House.

Also, and this will sound awful, whislt the Jameson Distillery development and Smithfield Market are finished off very well, they were always basically islands of affluence surrounded by ghettos. I know thats harsh, and many of the original inhabitants of the area are really decent upstanding people but there are also alot of “scumbags”, for want of a better term. Just look at all the behavior outside the childrens court…not to mention the horse fair!! That is not going to attract anybody.

Furthermore, judging by that fact that its mostly foreigners who alight at Smithfield, I would say most of the apartment owners are investors who literally don’t care about the area because they don’t live there!

C

I think there are many issues with Smithfield, several of which we’ve chewed over before, but I think the core issue is that it doesn’t have a function.

Smithfield was conceived and built as a market square, if you take that function away, it’s hardly surprising that what’s left is just a vast emptyness.

Apparently Smithfield originally hosted a live cattle market on Mondays and Thursdays in addition to the horse fair which originally was held weekly on Thursday afternoons. That might be all a bit Dodge City for today, but you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to know that a market square needs a market.

I wouldn’t have a problem even with a flea market just to get things going. Half of gunter’s wardrobe was acquired in various flea markets, as well as the actual wardrobe, now that I think of it.

That’s the truth of it really – you can have the nicest spaces in the world but if there’s nothing happening, they’re just windswept barren areas. And in an Irish climate, no end of architectural intervention is going to make that space better used for 8 months of the year. Smithfield and Newmarket need to be turned back into markets – not just farmer’s markets but all sorts of goods, and not once a week – 4/5 days a week. They’d become a draw in themselves eventually.

From this weekend’s IT

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0409/1224294275041.html

More bad news for Smithfield:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0415/breaking33.html
An absolute disaster for this part of Dublin. The Department should step in with grant assistance for the cinema. Better to spend another €175,000 now than let the €1.75 million grants involved go to waste.

Perhaps with Fingal Co Co dispensing with the Fry Model Railway,some enterprising fellow,perhaps a foreigner,could see some benefit to relocating it to one of the many empty spaces which border the “Plaza”.?

“Also,and this will sound awful, whislt the Jameson Distillery development and Smithfield Market are finished off very well, they were always basically islands of affluence surrounded by ghettos. I know thats harsh, and many of the original inhabitants of the area are really decent upstanding people but there are also alot of “scumbags”, for want of a better term. Just look at all the behavior outside the childrens court…not to mention the horse fair!! That is not going to attract anybody.”

Thebig C sadly does have a point,which is not Smithfield specific but can be applied to many areas of Irish Life.

For sure the Luas people have a battle on their hands to reclaim their system from the clutches of a substantial number of those who see no value in respecting proiperty or other individuals rights to integrity.

No amount of Architectural innovation or flash design will make any difference in the absence of a functional social framework to support it…currrently Smithfields framework is tenuous at best and prone to sudden collapse with the usual results.

Sad yes,but it’s where we currently are and ,it would seem,where we wish to remain.

Where are the units situated that Tesco is taking? Is it taking over Fresh or opening in a new location?

The Tesco is planned for the site occupied by The Complex on the corner of the small plaza area. The Complex are being turfed out.

Thanks. That’s sort of opposite the pub?

Don’t get me started on the ‘smithfield improvements’ (is any end in sight?) but just to finish off the wind tunnel effect we now have this rather johnny come lately application from Linders. All the way through the boom without breaking ground on various now expired schemes and bkd come up with this tired nonsense for them. Vintage 2006 Office Block muck. 5.18 plot ratio and 86% site coverage on an existing site with mature trees. Just what we need in Smithfield – more empty office space. Is anyone right in the head?

http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00342318.pdf

2660/11 – observations by Monday 13th.

Frank McDonald made an interesting observation about the braziers in a recent article.
He said that aside from enormous costs, they can cause heat/singe damage to some of the higher apartments, which were built after the braziers had been put in place.
Don’t know whether that is true but he raised the point that if they are never going to be used, they should simply be taken down as they have no function.
What would people think?

they can cause heat/singe damage to some of the higher apartments

I have been on the roof closest to a brazier when the braziers were lit, they are a good 5 or 6 metres distance away. I’d be very suprised if heat damage was possible.

I think the braziers should stay, but perhaps have high power low energy LEDs installed to make beams of light shine from them. These could be easily colour keyed for various events.

Above all however Smithfield (Market) needs a feckin MARKET! Not a half ass planting (greening) scheme or a ‘strategy’. Just get a regular market in with stalls, get some toilets into the stupid block in the middle, repurpose the old ESB station back to a market official/policing office, bung a safe in it for change (and a kettle) and run the Temple Bar Market there on weekdays. Put a specialist vintage/camden lock type market in at the weekends. Add students/tourists (generator hostel opens soon).

A look along the LUAS line at the number of new veg shops will show how the area is crying out for a fruit/veg market as well to take advantage of the proximity of the wholesale market.

@Smithfield Resi wrote:

I think the braziers should stay, but perhaps have high power low energy LEDs installed to make beams of light shine from them.

like this?

On the matter of The Complex;

There was a piece in one of the papers today about the Tesco store planned for ‘The Complex’, something about not having an off-licence. I couldn’t catch it all, the guy turned the page.

A couple of weeks ago, an acquaintance attended a play in The Complex, it was some harrowing family thing that went on for two and a half hours. Not the kind of thing if you’re looking for cheering up. Apparently it was very well performed and grimly realistic, but there were only six people in the audience, and two of them left at the interval.

. . . . and yes we need a market of some kind in Smithfield, urgently.

:lolno: I was thinking more this..but you get the point.

A functioning, regular market would help enliven Smithfield and give the regeneration a new impetus. With the Grangegorman redevelopment trundling along there’s a fresh opportunity to make this area better. A flea market would be the ideal starting point as it is an easy means of bringing lots of people to the area on a semi-regular basis. Hopefully this footfall will trigger the development of small shops, cafés, restaurants etc. necessary for filling all the empty units, providing employment and an atmosphere to the area.

The horse fair has rightfully been criticised by animal welfare organisations for the questionable standards of care received by the horses. However if the market was regulated and supervised it could be beneficial from a tourism perspective as people come to watch a 400 year-old market in action.

@Smithfield Resi wrote:

If you don’t like Fresh’s prices – potentially good news, however if you like “The Complex” a disaster.

Tesco Express put in an application for the Complex units…4176/10

(no idea how to link with 1. The new archiseek baord software or 2. With the mess that is DCC tinkering with the planning search)

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=4176/10

Great. No market. No Art. No Cultural Use. No nothing. Instead we are getting a Tesco Express. :sick:

At least no off licence – interesting as apparantly according to the courts http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0212/1224289634620.html they are not fit to hold one :wtf:

@Smithfield Resi wrote:

Don’t get me started on the ‘smithfield improvements’ (is any end in sight?) but just to finish off the wind tunnel effect we now have this rather johnny come lately application from Linders. All the way through the boom without breaking ground on various now expired schemes and bkd come up with this tired nonsense for them. Vintage 2006 Office Block muck. 5.18 plot ratio and 86% site coverage on an existing site with mature trees. Just what we need in Smithfield – more empty office space. Is anyone right in the head?

http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00342318.pdf

2660/11 – observations by Monday 13th.

This tiger flashback fantasy folly was refused. Already glut of vacant office accommodation in the area in deepest recession ever … really wonder what this application was all about >_<

It required demolition of the Irish Distillers building, a respected 1970s office conversion of a non-protected late-19th century stone warehouse which is also crucial to the conservation area streetscape of Bow Street behind. David Slattery threw every insult he could muster at it but to no avail.

The Distillers site should really be left as is and interests in the area should develop their permissions for the gap sites on the opposite side of Smithfield beside Luas, which really need developing.

That Corpo scan of the proposed office block on the Distillers’ site perfectly captures the leaden qualities of the proposal.
We really are in the architectural doldrums at the moment.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

A Public Event Licence application was recently lodged for a ‘German Market’ and a seasonal public ice rink, all under the marketing umbrella of a ‘Winterwonderlands’, intended to be located on the grounds at the Royal Hospital in Kilmainham. Is there some reason, that I’m simply not understanding, why this kind of thing isn’t going into the vast emptiness of Smithfield? . . . . as it surely would if Smithfield was in any other European city.

Today I spotted 3 winos/junkies asleep on the new benches, plus a new gaggle of skateboarders enjoying the grind boxes thoughfully provided by DCC. I strolled home past the large cage of builders rubble, admiring the new ‘sandbox’ at the top of the square. God bless you DCC, God bless you.

Hot hot hot! . Seems like so long ago, haha

@gunter wrote:

That Corpo scan of the proposed office block on the Distillers’ site perfectly captures the leaden qualities of the proposal.
We really are in the architectural doldrums at the moment.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

A Public Event Licence application was recently lodged for a ‘German Market’ and a seasonal public ice rink, all under the marketing umbrella of a ‘Winterwonderlands’, intended to be located on the grounds at the Royal Hospital in Kilmainham. Is there some reason, that I’m simply not understanding, why this kind of thing isn’t going into the vast emptiness of Smithfield? .

the horses would slip. although, they’d be bratwurst in no time then so

I was looking at the IFSC event guide and note that the german xmas market isn’t there (yet). I hope this isn’t its new home because it will die a million deaths in the RHK

Smithfield 21 November 2011

http://youtu.be/xdWNEozWxqw

It looks as if no expense will be spared to kill the horse fair once and for all. The tree planters I presume will be arranged to restrict access to the centre of the square or at least what’s left of it when the building work is complete. Is there any way to find out how much all this is costing? I’ve tried the DCC website but I can’t find anything.

Some recent snaps taken down Smithfield way where the public realm works are substantially completed. Recent developments such as the reopening of The Lighthouse and the new Generator Hostel are to be welcomed. Hopefully the area can start turning the corner. There’s a long way to go though.

Some issues of course…the all important red line boundary means that this whole section remains unresolved. Quite when this (potentially attractive) lane will get some improved paving and lighting is open to question.

The view down New Church Street – smart but a little sterile perhaps. I think more trees would have helped here. The cobble setts set so firmly in cement have lost all their charm and colour in my view.

The welcome return of a little curiosity

Planting on the square to be provided by these guys….beech hedges in concrete pots. There’s loads of them…must have cost a fair packet. They are currently arranged rather haphazardly pending completion of works.

The ‘competed’ section of the square is looking a bit worse for wear in places. These bollards were unsuccessful.

The grassed terrace at the northern end of the square. The terrace of 4 Georgian houses languishes in the background.

Another one of those forgotten streets – with the attractive name Friary Avenue. The housing here is starting to look like a ghetto.

Smartened up again on the connection through to Church Street. Getting people moving through from Capel Street to Smithfield is all important. Dont get me started on those bollards though…

Presumably a NAMA property, this building has been vacant since its completion. At the very least the railing surrounding it could be removed.

The before image from Google Maps http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Smithfield,+Dublin,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=53.348026,-6.276022&spn=0.000937,0.002411&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.59616,79.013672&oq=smithfield+dub&hnear=Smithfield,+County+Dublin,+Ireland&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=53.348026,-6.276022&panoid=XrzM6VT0X0QMIzDg9uSGvA&cbp=12,80.83,,0,5.61

what the fuck is this?

are you telling me they’ve taken up the cobbles and put down grass?

grass?

on Smithfield?

The whole gig has been to make the horse fair more difficult, create obstructons etc. Unfortunately Horses have a thing for grass.

Unfortunately this patch of grass is full of dog shit.

@gunter wrote:

what the fuck is this?

are you telling me they’ve taken up the cobbles and put down grass?

grass?

on Smithfield?

Yup. Its already looking a bit peaky. This will be battered earth by summer’s end, in much the same way as Jervis Park went. But they wont be told.

Holy crap, wasn’t this suppose to be the city’s grand open space? They had finished the bloody thing, and they change their minds. I get the whole horse fair problem, but if cobbles stones didn’t stop them grass surely won’t.

I suppose the braziers have been replaced 100 watt light bulbs from the spar shop?

Anyone know what is happening with the chimney btw? The elevator shaft seemed to be collapsing last time I was up that way.

@Service charge wrote:

Anyone know what is happening with the chimney btw? The elevator shaft seemed to be collapsing last time I was up that way.

defunct

The Generator Hostel website seems to indicate it is up and running again? It is a real shame if it isn’t.

They light them up at night but it still does little to relieve the slightly oppressive atmosphere.

I was down in Smithfield last night. There is just a small section of Haymarket to be completed (with cobbling) and some minor fixing up about the square and yet huge sections still given over to the work site. Its dragging on now just a tad. Lets just get the work finished and start building life and business in the area DCC. The newly repaved streets look great and I think the area will start to lift. Generator is a great anchor for the square and the Lighthouse is holding its own, what with another new cinema opened at Point Village.

I don’t know….some of the new paving is actually very good quality. However, what we see today really isn’t anything like the great open European Piazza we were promised.

The pace of development has been labouriously slow, what was built took extraordinarily long (thanks in part to our old friends the serial objectors) and some projects haven’t even comensed like the redevelopment of Irish distiller, the Georgian buildings at the head of the Square, the unsightly derelicting in front of the Glass House and of of course the huge excavation between Phoenix House and the Four Courts. All add an air of drabness and cessation.

Needless to say, mistakes of the past are still haunting the Square. I am speaking about the “Childrens Court” and its attendent retenue of intimidating gurriers and the toytown like 2/3 storey pastiche Council houses at the Northern end.

C

And here is another Facebook-led campaign for a public realm project…this time on that strip of wasteland beside the Luas line between Smithfield and Queen Street

http://www.facebook.com/arttunnelsmithfield

Interestingly the site is owned by the Bargaintown owner according to the blurb. The campaign is now seeking €5,000 funding to realise the garden/installation. I am sure RPA must be able to stump up something! Dice Bar and new businesses on Benburb Street are also contributing.

I think its a great idea….beats the buddelia.

I read on thejournal.ie that there’s to be 17 new stalls permitted around Town with the change in the bye-laws of Dublin City Council. Do archiseekers know if any of these are to be located in Smithfield? It would be good as it could act as a further catalyst to bringing footfall through the area and promoting a vibrant, attractive community.

Also, the Smithfield fruit market needs the cash for its long-mooted redevelopment which should begin and be completed this year. Having the Smithfield fruit market up to the same standard as the English Market in Cork in terms of being a destination for locals and tourists alike would provide another boost to the area and support cafés and restaurants in the area.

Doesnt look like Smithfield is included in this list http://www.dublincity.ie/RecreationandCulture/CasualTradingLicence/Pages/default.aspx but there is already a small market on Smithfield and its not as if there are no vacant shop units that need filling. I’m not really sure stalls will help. I think stalls need anchor shops to attract footfall.

Smithfield Fruit Market…would you call it that. I always think of the Markets area as separate from Smithfield. Preliminary works have already begun on the Market Hall. Interesting collection of images here http://www.dublincityarchitects.ie/?p=98#more-98

Public realm is a key to the success of the Markets I would think. Its is uniformly awful in this part of the city. Perhaps this might help http://dubcitybeta.wordpress.com/

@StephenC wrote:

Doesnt look like Smithfield is included in this list http://www.dublincity.ie/RecreationandCulture/CasualTradingLicence/Pages/default.aspx but there is already a small market on Smithfield and its not as if there are no vacant shop units that need filling. I’m not really sure stalls will help. I think stalls need anchor shops to attract footfall.

Well I’d certainly agree with that – anchor shops are certainly more attractive than stalls to people but given the overall slump in fortunes experienced by Dublin and Ireland it’s not likely that we’ll see too many of them, therefore we’re left with the likes of stalls to generate business. It might be a good idea also to put in a couple more Dublin Bikes stands when the next round of expansion starts with that. Incidentally, I remember reading that fastfood places and phone shops are really footfall-leeches rather than footfall generators in themselves.

Smithfield Fruit Market…would you call it that. I always think of the Markets area as separate from Smithfield. Preliminary works have already begun on the Market Hall. Interesting collection of images here http://www.dublincityarchitects.ie/?p=98#more-98

Public realm is a key to the success of the Markets I would think. Its is uniformly awful in this part of the city. Perhaps this might help http://dubcitybeta.wordpress.com/

Well the place it’s in is called Smithfield on ratemyarea.com so there’s some argument for it being called that! However, I feel the main thing is for the place to be developed, regardless of what it’s called. I’m delighted to hear that preliminary works have (finally) commenced. Hopefully they’ll be ready to go for Christmas this year. It would be another driver of business in around that part of Dublin 1.

Thanks for the link to the blog with the photos of it being built in the first place. Often with these older buildings you think of them as being a permanent feature on the landscape and forget that once, they too, were new constructions. I wonder did they have to deal with an Bord Pleanála back in their day? 🙂

The finished lower end of the plaza – nice job!!!!!!! Skateboard rats are the main activity so far.

That ‘Glass House’ office infill worked out quite well ….. apart from the lack of office tenants, lol.

Now all that’s needed is development of the two sites on the west side on each side of Luas. There were two pisstaking Tiger applications for these sites in the late noughties.

Timeline:

First off was a redevelopment of the buildings on the Smithfield / Haymarket site with a monster 9-storey block, in the centre, above. This was granted permission with no volume changes by Dublin City Council – 2776/07 – and refused outright by An Bord Pleanala on appeal – PL29N.226444. The architects were trying to do some trendy Stockholm-Barcelona building with “woven steel mesh” instead of actually trying to repair some of the damage done to the coherent historic scale of the area by Smithfield Market.

In the appeal, the applicant argued, inter alia, that the location of the site at the junction of Luas and Smithfield warranted a large building such as that proposed. The appellant argued, inter alia, that the site should be seen in the overall context of Smithfield and the appropriate thing to do here was mediate in scale between Smithfield Market to the north and the traditional city scale of the Quays to the south.

While the Haymarket site was still under appeal, a 10-storey building was lodged for the Smithfield / Coke Lane site next door to the south, on the left above – 2012/08

The Coke Lane proposal was redesigned and scaled back by the time of its approval by the City Council, then was further reduced and turned around by 180° on appeal – PL29N.232346

Following the initial Haymarket appeal refusal, a revised 7-storey block was permitted by the City Council – 3045/09 – then reduced to 6 storeys on appeal – PL29N.234398.

So the desired transition in scale between Smithfield Market and the Quays was eventually achieved in the permitted buildings. But there’s no consistency to the City Council’s decision making; they granted permission for the two successive Haymarket applications more or less without any changes, but granted a massively reduced version of the Coke Lane proposal.

I recall during the boom that when Adamstown Town Centre in west Dublin was being created, there were strict briefs by South Dublin Co. Co. which the various architects involved had to follow and they all knew exactly what type and size of building was required in each location. Yet a major Dublin-city-centre civic and historic plaza like Smithfield had no guidelines about how its remaining gap sites should be developed, about what type of buildings the City Council wanted to see there …… so you got this tomfoolery nonsense of applicants coming in with obviously ridiculous proposals out of proportion to the location, with the City Council usually just throwing permission at them ….. hopefully it’ll all be cleaned up on appeal. Crazy.

It’s all a bit much when you read the reams and reams of waffle in the new Dublin City Development Plan under headings like “shaping the city” and “spatial structure of Dublin” (just open it here and start reading anywhere). The sham that’s been called “planning” in Dublin city centre for the past decade cannot hide behind this wall of bluff.

I met a DCC planning colleague recently who is stressed out working on LAPs for areas such as Pelletstown and North Fringe…but this area (previously designated as HARP) and the Liberties must surely be the development priorities for the city as confidence returns to the construction sector. I am not talking about wholesale landbanking, demolition and shite rebuild as shown in your post exene1 but rather something approximating to regeneration that maintains and restores the essential character and quality of the area. Yet, to my knowledge the Forward Planning team in DCC don’t have this area on its radar. The Liberties has its unimplementable LAP of course (after a suggested €1m spent devising it!) but as yet there is no up to date ‘action plan’ for Smithfield. Things will just happen as they will. A h.uge amount of NAMA sites around here I’d warrant

Okay, so perhaps somewhat on the radar :eh: :eh:

DUBLIN CITY COUNCIL PLANS TO CREATE JOBS AND NEW HOMES ON VACANT SITES IN THE CITY.

BROWNFIELD REGENERATION EUROPEAN EXPERTS COME TO DUBLIN WITH EXAMPLES OF EUROPEAN BEST PRACTICE

From Monday May 21st to Thursday, 24th May, Dublin City Council will lead planning experts from eleven European countries who are in Dublin on a series of professional workshops on how best to regenerate “brownfield” lands in the City; abandoned or underused industrial and commercial facilities available for re-use, including derelict sites, sites left empty as a result of businesses moving out of premises, in-fill sites that would improve the local area if they were developed sensitively and public spaces that would benefit an area if they were regenerated. Dublin City Council is a working with partners from 11 different countries, including Northern Ireland, Spain, Italy, Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Finland, Hungary, Czech Republic and Austria, in a 3-year Interregional Cooperation Programme Interreg IVC Brownfield Convention project. The overall objective of the programme is “to improve regional policies influencing Brownfield redevelopment through transfer of best practice”.

According to John Tierney, Dublin City Manager, there are an estimated 200 or more “brownfield” sites between the canals of all different shapes and sizes “There is a necklace of underutilised sites along the LUAS Red Line alone, extending from the inner city as far out as the Naas Road”, he said, “and there are enormous opportunities for developing innovative policies on brownfield development and re-use throughout the city”.

Prominent brownfield sites in the city include CIE site opposite the Jervis Centre, the Fishmarket at Mary’s Lane, an OPW site at Hammond Lane, the former Distillers Premises, Smithfield, and the former Dulux Factory on Davitt Road. Newmarket in the Liberties is a public space in need of regeneration and one that the European experts will visit and give any insights they have, as a result of similar successfully regenerated sites in their cities. The City Manager is convinced that “the successful turnaround of brownfield sites depends on a buy–in, with the owners, with local businesses and with local people to see if there are opportunities to move ahead with improving or regenerating any of the sites”.

“With regeneration comes possibilities for increased investment in infrastructure in the city and associated job creation opportunities”, noted John Tierney. “The successful and sustainable turnaround of Brownfield sites is vital to the creation of a quality European City. This EU programme is one where Dublin can contribute to and learn from our European colleagues”.

Of special interest to Dublin is its partnership with Belfast City Council, and their recent successful experience in Brownfield regeneration, with the Titanic Quarter.

Dublin’s Lord Mayor Andrew Montague is firmly of the view that Dublin will learn from each of our E.U. partner’s successes and experiences, which will influence, and improve the City Council’s policies on tackling some of the more difficult, long-term derelict and vacant sites.

“The visit by the eleven European experts this week presents an opportunity to examine how our Brownfield lands can be integrated with surrounding local infrastructure, such as public transport, schools and public parks,” says Lord Mayor Andrew Montague. “The workshops will analyse some of Dublin’s more successful Brownfield renewal projects such as Temple Bar in the 1990’s and Dublin Docklands, which now includes a new residential quarter, and landmarks such as the Bord Gais Energy Theatre, the Samuel Beckett Bridge and Google HQ.

“Following exposure to Dublin’s Brownfield Sites, the EU partners will act as a think-tank in workshops, to set forward innovative ideas and best practice examples which could be transferred to Dublin’s study sites. As a consequence, Dublin City Council aspires to transfer the relevant data into future Brownfield regeneration projects, ultimately resulting in the creation of jobs and new homes in the city, and also reducing the pressure for unsustainable sprawl outside our city” the Lord Mayor concluded.

ENDS

For further information

Dublin City Council Press Office T. (01) 222 2107,

And reported in today’s Irish Times

COUNCIL TO ACT ON 200 DERELICT SITES

AN INITIATIVE to put some 200 vacant, abandoned or derelict sites in Dublin city back into productive use is being developed by Dublin City Council.

Planning experts from nine different European countries are in Dublin this week to advise on how best to address the capital’s growing numbers of “brownfield” sites which have become a blight on the city.

Brownfield lands – commercial and industrial sites which have fallen into disuse or become derelict – had become a major problem in the city up to the 1980s when tax incentives were introduced for their redevelopment.

Such incentives were instrumental in the renewal of Temple bar and the Dublin Docklands. The economic boom years also increased development of former industrial sites in the centre of the city.

However, the abrupt end to the boom has left a legacy of new brownfield sites as properties were bought and often demolished by developers who then ran out of money to build on the land.

City planner John O’Hara said site owners and the council needed to take a step back from the grand projects of the boom which were no longer practicable and look at realistic short and medium-term uses of the land.

“We have seen the large plots that were granted permission in the excitement of the boom that are now vacant or underused sites. In places where le grand project has fallen flat on its face everything has ground to a halt.”

The larger the site the bigger the problem posed as banks were unlikely to release substantial funds for their redevelopment. However, smaller-scale uses were an option for these sites such as “hot desking”, where sole traders and start-up businesses can rent short-term office space, or the use of vacant plots for markets or arts and events spaces.

“The idea is to keep an area buoyant, to put a space back on people’s mental map, maybe through small-scale shops or residential use. It’s not to say that all big projects are bad, but we need to kick-start the use of the land if confidence is to be restored. And that includes the confidence of the banks,” said Mr O’Hara.

The council would be approaching the owners of all 200 sites and offering to write design briefs for them, with which they can then approach banks or estate agents.

The council had fallen foul of the hubris of the boom with grand plans which were no longer achievable.

“Newmarket Square is a failure. The Liberties Local Area Plan had in mind offices and a hotel and residential development for the square. That isn’t going to happen now, at least not in the immediate future,” said Mr O’Hara.

However, he added that the square did offer opportunities for smaller more considered development, such as the Sunday flea market which had already started, and potential for collaboration with the nearby National College of Art and Design.

The square is one of the brownfield sites which the European planners will be asked to consider this week.

Other prominent locations identified as needing intervention include the former CIÉ site on Upper Abbey Street, the Fishmarket at Mary’s Lane and an Office of Public Works site at Hammond Lane.
Irish Times

I wonder if the 100 buildings at risk mentioned last week are included in this list? Or is there some overlap at least? What do you reckon our planner cousins from Europe will think of the declining quality of Dublin city centre?

Smithfield almost complete….

Still faffing around with the services pavillion thingy but otherwise the space has been returned to the city albeit now surrounded by these swanky new beech hedges in planters.

Annoyingly, you can wander about and spot plenty of small patches of tarmac or missing pavoirs in the original section. A bit of snagging wouldn’t have gone amiss.

In addition to the southern section of the square, a number of the adjoining streets such as Haymarket and New Church Avenue have been cobbled and repaved.

The scheme extends down May Lane towards the City Markets area (hopefully next on the list)

This London-style rank of pointless bollards unfortunately left in place. And that bloody fencing.

I like the new LED lights here.

The new Generator Hostel on the square was buzzing this afternoon. Seems to be doing a roaring trade. Unfortunately, tourists from the hostel are the main footfall on the square. Hopefully that will change….lots of empty shops to fill.

Tesco have just been granted permission from Dublin City Council for a new store on the square at Units 18-19…formerly The Complex. The decision awaits a final grant.

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=2461/12&theTabNo=1&backURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=1723999%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E%20%3E%20%3Ca%20href=’wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=2131484%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID:asc%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=%3Ca%20href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=1723999%3ESearch%20Criteria%3C/a%3E’%3ESearch%20Results%3C/a%3E

The off-licence of the store element was removed.

I love this ‘unambiguous’ condition

7. Security roller shutters and their casing, if installed, shall be recessed behind the perimeter glazing and shall be factory finished in a single colour to match the colour scheme of the building. Such shutters shall be of the ‘open lattice’ type and shall not be used for any form of advertising, unless authorised by a further grant of planning permission Reason: In the interests of visual amenity

Its obviously up to you guys whether to create a dreadful dead frontage at night.

Details of the proposed signage and frontage http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00370038.pdf

@StephenC wrote:

This London-style rank of pointless bollards unfortunately left in place. And that bloody fencing.

Came across a response by the City Manager to a councillor requesting the removal of this fencing:

Due to the design of the building with numerous nooks and crannies the harris fencing is preventing rough sleeping, loitering, dumping and anti-social behavior. It also allows Gardaí and security staff to see if anyone is in behind the fencing. Although its appearance is not aesthetically pleasing it is serving its function and it would be better to leave it in place until the building is occupied, than to have it removed or replaced with a hoarding.

Apparently this is the photograph that the New York Times used to depict Dublin in their 46 places to visit in 2013 travel guide.

The tag line was ‘The emerald isle reaches out with an ancestral celebration’, a reference to The Gathering, about which, more later.

Not a lot of ‘ancestral celebration’ evident in the streetscape presentation, as currently being discussed on Joe Duffy. Tourism heads might cringe at the picture choice, but this was an accident waiting to happen, they could have taken shots in Thomas Street or James Street, with the same streetscape horror show.

I saw this too on Twitter a few days back. Shocking picture to use and really unfortunate for the powers that be who like to present that I need to go I need to get away from everything’ view of the city. But you make a valid point of course.
What about that classic view of the Ha’penny Bridge…with that monstrous canopy over the door. Its been brought to the attention of so many city officials but none of them care to be frank.
Or think of The Dubline…Dublin’s emerging high quality tourist trail. Look at Dame Street. A parade of takeaways and pubs at this stage. I see a Subway going into the Londis close to College Green…the handy way of getting a fastfood operator in without needing to fuss about with planning permission. Elsewhere on the street kebabs, chinese buffets, chipshops, dubious burger bars, etc abound. You would be hard pushed to find an actual shop. I imagine the next step is less and less daytimes uses as nighttime becomes more lucrative.
All this along what should be one of the city’s premier streets.

Smithfield in 1999, two makeovers ago:

There’ll be another one in 2020.

Rationale: “The 2011 scheme is considered to have introduced a busy variety of elements and textures into the 17th century square. The current scheme sees to re-establish the original open character of the market place with a consistent, uniform treatment across the ground plane.” lolol

New shopfront being erected without permission today on Protected Structure, 4 Queen Street.

Sure this is happening everywhere now. With impunity. The Planning Department such that it remains, has totally given up on even a semblance of enforcing the planning code in the city. It is the ultimate non-department.

This fantasy in plastic on Capel Street (an ACA)

However, we must ask the question. What can be done differently. The problem is so pervasive and most businesses would now see it as an intrusion to require planning to ‘upgrade’ their premises, particularly in the current environment.

No one can agree on good design, no one can agree on what colours works and what don’t, no one can control what premises are doing on a daily basis. In most instances painters etc will be in and out before anyone has even realised. No one can control the laminated plastic industry that has grown as fast as the traditional shopfront practitioners have declined.

The planning system is a also problem. Its far too complicated and expensive to get permission for shopfront changes. It should be simpler…but with clear rules as to what you can and cannot do. The City Council’s guidelines need to be revised and made more accessible. In this age of the ubiquitous web this stuff should be all online.

@StephenC wrote:

No one can agree on good design, no one can agree on what colours work and what don’t, no one can control what premises are doing on a daily basis.

I know Stephen, all true. But one thing is for sure: poor quality is generating poor quality. The previous Gorta front, also installed without permission in the late noughties, led to the crude plastic ‘Trimmings’ shop fascia (just out of your picture on the left) being erected a year or so ago next door at 137 Capel Street, a Prot. Struc. The new gorta front is an Even Worse version of the previous one.

Likewise original 19th century shopfront consoles replaced without permission some time ago by crude oversized ‘traditional style’ ones by Ryan’s pub, 5 Queen Street, a Prot. Struc. (documented on ‘Shopfront Race to Bottom’ thread) led to the similar crude consoles erected today at 4 Queen Street. Same thing replicated across the city as you say.

While on Queen Street an honourable mention must go the Dice Bar opposite. In contrast to the crapfest of Ryan’s pub and Bargaintown, their signage is tastefully set with the historic shopfront fascia and architectural character of the overall building well maintained.