New Dublin City Development Plan

I understand that the Plan will go on display on 21st Dec just before beark for Christmas.

Forgive my ignorance but will the plan revise or alter the Framework Development Plans?

Are we to expect specific new buildings in the plan? And if so what kind? Simple office blocks and shopping centres or perhaps art centres, galleries, hospitals etc.?

Hmmm not really Yixian. The Development Plan is a strategic plan for the whole city area for the next 6 years. Best look at the current plan to get an idea. I understand the new plan will not be hugely different to whats currently in place.
The Framework Plans are non-statutory plans prepared by DCC for certain areas. They are seperate to the City Plan although they are usually referred to in the City Plan and are indicated on the zoning map etc.

Yixian, the construction cost of high rise buildings are prohibitive and therefore few if any will be built over next few years. Montevetro is the last of them I suspect.

@jdivision wrote:

Yixian, the construction cost of high rise buildings are prohibitive and therefore few if any will be built over next few years. Montevetro is the last of them I suspect.

+ 1

Of what I have seen, the draft plan is disappointing, incorrect on basic assessments, and represents a retrograde departure. There are remarkably basic flaws contained within. I am still going through it and will comment further at a later date.

In the meantime, to return to Yixian’s original query, it must be realised local authorities don’t drive/ develop shopping centres etc – commercial realities within the capitalist framework do that… However if and where a local authority designates additional extra space for high rise at a time when there is no demand (20% vacancy of offices at present), this creates an unrealiseable “hope value” on the sites occupied by lower-lying buildings. Result: more dereliction.

In the context of NAMA, too effectively bestow vertical rezoning at areas where too much money was paid for sites, there is a serious danger that such unrealiseable high-rise designation will increase the paper value of these holdings before the properties are cashed in with NAMA.

Result the state is rezoning lands that they are then to effectively acquire, inevitably at a higher price then is currently justifiable; buildings currently in situ (e.g. Thomas St) will become further derelict as the building’s return cannot match the unreal “hope value” placed thereon.

Hence one very concerning aspect of the DCC proposed development plan is this “Frankenstein Clause”, where a previously killed-off high rise plan is back from the dead in a context of 15,000 empty domestic units and 20% commercial vacancy, and is most likely to lead to widescale dereliction and the state paying too much money to developers via NAMA

Do we really want a derelict city centre with excessive state money now to be paid to speculators who paid too much at the height of the bertie bubble? 😡

Well, Dublin is still growing and if there are no new high rises the only alternative is sprawl, more and more sprawl 🙁

@Yixian wrote:

Well, Dublin is still growing and if there are no new high rises the only alternative is sprawl, more and more sprawl 🙁

Dublin isn’t growing at present – the city centre is declining by way of much increased vacancy.

High density without high rise is the alternative to high rise – city centre of Paris has this.

Hence sprawl is not the only alternative to high rise.

However if the city’s authorities effectively incentivise dereliction, that will make the city centre less attractive and drive more people into sprawlburbia 🙁

If you want to stop sprawl, then the real challenge is to prevent adjacent but competing local authority areas from granting sub-standard planning consents in their pursuit of development levies and rates bases. To do this the powers currently vested in the councils of these areas must be scrapped, and instead vested in one strong regional authority for the Dublin area. We shall see whether this happens with the planned new elected Dublin Lord Mayor – but I’m not holding my breath.

Summary: high density without high rise is what should currently be planned for, amalgamate the Dublin area L.A.s, and don’t crayon mark city centre areas for high rises that aren’t going to be built, as we’ll just end up paying too much money to speculators via NAMA and a derelict city centre.

Bear in mind what jdivision has already written, and that there’s nothing whatsoever to stop already allowed high rise (U2 tower) from going ahead… except for the commercial realities, that is 😉

Bang on the money Hutton. Central Paris has a density three times greater than central London. Both cities are primarily low rise. However the street life and activity (cafe on every corner) is far greater in Paris – primarily due to the higher urban density. Meanwhile Dublin still has so much under developed land within the canal ring. For example compare the quality urban environment and density of areas around wicklow / Grafton st or Temple Bar with the dead and toothless streets betweencook street and Oliver Bond flats.

Hutton i also agree with you in regard to the Local Authority factor. Sprawl was primarily generated by commuter / suburban local authorities chasing as much development as possible for they’re own district so that the rate intake/ planning contributions would increase.

Sandyford is a perfect case in point. It should never have developed as it did over the last 15 years. But the Local council was having financial problems and ended up promoting extensive development in Sandyford. This was a carefull attempt to increase the amount of income generated from rates. Many other foolish suburban decisions.

@jdivision wrote:

Yixian, the construction cost of high rise buildings are prohibitive and therefore few if any will be built over next few years. Montevetro is the last of them I suspect.

Can someone give an idea of the build cost of a high rise building? Let’s say a 5 storey building versus a 20 storey building with the same footprint, and hence 4 times the space. If the 5 storey building costs €X, could you not build the 20 storey for €4X or less?

@JoePublic wrote:

Can someone give an idea of the build cost of a high rise building? Let’s say a 5 storey building versus a 20 storey building with the same footprint, and hence 4 times the space. If the 5 storey building costs €X, could you not build the 20 storey for €4X or less?

I’m not at liberty:p depends how quickly you can jump

Bruce Shaw construction index probably has something on it.

The amendments to the Draft Development Plan can now be viewed and a public consultation period has begun. Its interesting to see how few of the public submissions made to the draft plan were taken up by the City Council.

Dublin City Development Plan