Liberty Hall redevelopment

Where did you hear this from crestfield. And what do you think is the likeliest outcome.

A booklet has become availible, perhaps you might get a copy at Liberty Hall. I think that A and B are unliklely given the booklet emphasis on the cost and the fact that the building’s present limitations would still remain.

it would be really depressing if they knocked liberty hall, its one of the defining buildings of dublin, it looks really well and in my opinion, dublin can use all the highrise it gets. crest do you know if they redevloped, whether its replacement would be high rise? presumably it would as it is a small site.

excuse the slightly unprofessional editing 😀

Even though I have a sneaking liking for Liberty Hall, I do like the “without” image. I would imagine that they will just sell up and move and leave the headaches to some developer. Having been up in the tower, it is incredibly pokey inside.

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

Even though I have a sneaking liking for Liberty Hall, I do like the “without” image. I would imagine that they will just sell up and move and leave the headaches to some developer. Having been up in the tower, it is incredibly pokey inside.

i went to one of the top floors to visit some enforcement office, the majority of the space available seems to be used up by cores and corridors.

Yes, it’s a mess inside. Amazing how little fits into it

🙂 How do you attach photos on this?

I always wanted todo this…

type in [img]then%20paste%20in%20the%20url%20of%20the%20image,%20it%20should%20be%20something%20like%20http://www.kfjefdvk.com/skfjv.jpg,%20then%20close%20it%20with[/img]

Thought I might root out someof my old Photoshop jobs… what could have been built if developers had their way.

🙂

God, that looks awful!!! I wouldn’t mind Liberty Hall and that monstrosity, O’Connell Bridge House both coming down. High rise should be concentrated at Heuston and in the Docklands.

Great images as always Morlan – Liberty Hall looks much more Japanesey there 🙂

Must also admit to a strange liking for Liberty Hall – though only because of how iconic it is at this stage, and how it’s still the city’s tallest building and is the original and best (or worst).

Paradoxically, the utterly ridiculous views of it next to the Custom House are also quite appealing – they have become intrinsically linked, from cartoon mock-ups of the city in adverts, to postcards, to documentaries, to simply familar views walking along the quays – they’ve grown into each other.

50/50 for knocking it.

beautiful! excellent, i wish they had their way 🙁 dublin needs to grow taller, high rise mixed with the old style building is uniqe and looks really nice, aesthetics aside, dublin really needs high density planning to solve alot of problems – namely congestion, commuting times and sprawl. Now that the docklands oppertunity has been wasted, are there any other sites in the innnercity suitable for a high rise cluster?

really nice pics btw

We’ve been looking at Liberty Hall/ O’Connell Bridge House for so long now I think their complete absence would always look like gap in the skyline, at least until the next generation grows up.
Personally, I like the bookending effect they have on the view east and without them, the city would peter out very unimpressively into the sea. But I think they are the worst 1960s tat they should both be knocked and replaced with well-designed blocks at least as tall.
Better still would have been to have a high rise cluster down the docks – a lost opportunity indeed.

it great news that something is going to happen with liberty hall maybee if teh redevelopment is done well it will have a knock on effect for the rest of eden quay

Knock the damned thing!

If the entire block including the Liberty Hall Theatre were knocked, they could potentially get back the floorspace lost from its demolition and replacement with a six-storey block. The present site is a dreadfully inefficient use of land – the liberty Theatre having only two storeys at present. The building will be missed just like the huge gas tower at sir john rogerson’s quay, but then again…. maybe not….The Customs House is adversely affected by Liberty Hall’s proximity. Compared to losses such as the Metropole and Pillar and the Fitzwilliam Street Terrace, Liberty Hall would be insignificant.

given the height.. i suppose if it was to be knocked down something equally tall would be built… as far as obscuring the custom house i think the loop line bridge is the biggest offender and needs to be tackled

Surely from an architectural perspective the whole point of even considering the knocking of Liberty Hall would be to restore the skyline of the area and reassert the dominance of the Custom House on the riverscape?

Any desire for the retention of Liberty Hall is surely just a deep-rooted fondness for the building as an icon of 1960s modernisation with most people rather than an architectural one?!
Knocking the State’s relatively inoffensive first ‘skyscaper’ only to replace it with another tall building right next to one of Europe’s most significant neoclassical structures would be sheer lunacy.

If it goes it goes.

If it goes what replaces will be taller because its floors are so small from floor to ceiling due to the absence of raised access floors and deeply suspended ceilings etc. Georges Quay is 5 storeys lower but yet is only 3m lower in overall height.

I say knock it and build a 90 storey version on Bond Road keeping the exact proportions so that it looks the same size from O’Connell Bridge.

🙂

Though there is potential to fit more space, if not quite match the existing floor area of the tower, on the site as a whole if one includes the theatre.

What would be the practical implications of knocking Liberty Hall and building another tower in its place?
Would the precendent set be factored into consideration by DCC? If it went to appeal (very likely methinks), how would APB view the proposal, not least it being next to the Custom House?
Would they evaluate the scheme entirely objectively, or factor in the precedent?

An ‘interesting’ state of affairs would arise to say the least if a building that would never in a million years get planning permission today if proposed for the first time on this site were to sail through the process on such grounds.

It would be ‘the grey area’ application of all time.

On the one hand you have a precedent for 16 storeys with an established commercial use and a long established occupier, on the other hand you have the Custom House which in todays planning set up would be protected if the application were considered De Novo.

I am going to cop out horribly on this and suggest that it should be reclad and an angular extension should start at the eighth floor and be built at gentle slope over the ‘to be demolished shops’ on Eden Quay with the slope ending in line with the established building line of the ‘Seamans Building’

Therebye tidying up the mess at that end of Eden Quay and masking the dreadful rear elevation of the VHI building on Abbey St

Another disaster that, and a scheme of a vintage that cannot remotely cling on to 60s brutalist planning as any form of excuse.

I genuinely believe that the architects of the 1960’s genuinely believed that they were in a new paradigm and that brutalist architecture was the ultimate expression of man’s conquering technology to deliver functionality to the masses, Liberty Hall in that context is quite a soft expression with its proportioned plinth and crown. It could almost be described as a modern building that was compromised by Victorian influences represented by the copper crown and less impressive plinth.

No such excuses for the VHI that was cynical penny pinching; not that the VHI have been doing much of that with their premiums lately.

brutalist architecture was the ultimate expression of man’s conquering technology to deliver functionality to the masses

Prettiness in architecture is a bourgeois concept, comrade The masses merely care about functionality.

I hope that if they do knock it something of equal hight is built on that site, possibly taller. Dublin certainly does need all the tall buildings it can get. To knock it and build a 6 storey box in it’s place would be a nightmare. I think that this country is very slow to build highrises. There are even delays with Alto Vetro and Montevetro which proves my point. Build them right now I say. Don’t waste time and allow them to slip through. Look at what happened to the proposed Southbank Tower. To be honest though I do hate Montevetro. It’s not one bit tasty at all. 🙂

‘Dublin needs all the tall buildings it can gat’ – eh, maybe so, but in the right context an location – with that mentality – tall at any cost – we would not have the georgian city we have today!!!

Sorry. Don’t get me wrong. I am not saying tall at any cost. I really do agree with proper context/location. I am simply saying that we should have some skyscrapers as part of Dublin and of course in the right location. We should also speed up the process of going to construction. I am not for skyscrapers everywhere and all over the place. As for Liberty Hall, I think it would be a shame to remove this building as it has been part of the skyline for 40 years. Replacing it with a lowrise building would dramatically change that area. If they knock Liberty Hall and build a nice efficient building in it’s place to the same height I’ll be happy. Something clean and fresh there would be nice. Even a clean up of the existing Liberty Hall. I know people say it impacts on the Custom House but I think our Loop Line Bridge is to blame there. 😉

I’d prefer all tall buildings to be to the East of the loop line bridge.

The spot I’d like to see most of them go up in would be near Dublin Port and along the coast.

i’d Like to see a building around 20 storeys , which is an average skyscraper in ‘irish terms” and i like the new liberty hall to match the Georges quay building too. its stupid to build a low rise building on the site , as there is plenty of high desity in that area , not to mention all the artriel routes, land values, public transport and the new tara st project (if that ever gets started)

i remember tara street being approved years ago and i must say i like the look of the plans. i also wish that they’d speed things up there and go to construction. it is taking a long time to start erection work on tara street. i just hope that tara street doesn’t slip through the net like the southbank tower did.

As far as I am aware, Tara Street will not be going ahead in the foreseable future as CIE has lost the nerve to close the station to built ontop of it.

The recent Dart Closures would have been the perfect opportunity, something tells me that the commuter is a little weary of closures at this point and Tara St would be the first weekday closures I can ever remember. All services terminating in Connolly and Pearse would make life very difficult for those living and working in suburbs on opposing sides of the city and one really has to wonder would the congestion costs significantly outweigh the capital gain.

A complete redesign leaving the station intact but 100% coverage away from the station with a public open space (interlinked deck) on top of the station and a cantelevered section over the station could be kind of funky.

ah, that’s a pitty. i quite like the proposal that was approved. knocking hawkin’s house would also have made tara street look extra nice.

And the recent ‘revamp’ of the station pretty much hammers the nail in the coffin it would seem.
Can’t say I’m not pleased – the Tara St proposal, though architecturally ‘worthy’ as I recall, would have been yet another mid-rise pile adding insult to injury to the low-rise nature of the city core. Matt Talbot is the line as far as I’m concerned, it ought not to be breached for anything!

See Siptu’s PR wheels were in full motion today, what with that piece in the Times and RTÉ’s ‘and finally’ (well second last) report on the Nine. The options are pretty much as Crestfield outlined above.
I’m guessing they won’t want to move so it’ll be a toss-up between refurbishment and rebuild…
A decision is due in the autumn.

@Graham Hickey wrote:

Matt Talbot is the line as far as I’m concerned, it ought not to be breached for anything!

Definitely. And even at that, you need a buffer zone for the Custom House.

Liberty Hall should be refurbished. It is a well known anchor landmark. If it is to be knocked down it will add to the fact of Dublin becoming a city of transient architecture. Here today, gone tomorrow, nothing of value. A great city always has a permanant stock of buildings accumulated over time which add to its identity.

Knock it down (and make it fall on the VHI building). Then rebuild and move the Abbey into new Theatre/Office building. Might save Georges Dock from destruction. 🙂

The tower footprint is very small, and as others have correctly said, the central service core makes for very little useful space on each of the floors. Likewise the glazing made the rooms initially very hot.

I could see, barely, the logic of keeping part of the site for the meeting hall when the original tower was built.
Mass meetings (usually of striking busworkers), if I recall correctly had to be held somewhere back then but what, exactly, is the point of keeping the hall now. A non performing asset?

I understand the hall was only recently refurbished, which makes a hard decision about redeveloping it unlikely.

Any sign of the “Helga” in the Custom House Docks?

Would announcing their review be a bit of a kiteflying exercise to see what developers come knocking with offers?

I would think so Paul. They’re testing the market.
They’re also testing the internal market, to see if the workers they’re supposed to be representing would revolt if Siptu sold Liberty Hall for 30 pieces of silver. Or the Marxist equivalent thereof.
(They should give the proceeds of the sale to Joe Higgins, and the other working class heroes who exposed the Gama scandal while Siptu looked the other way)

I believe that knocking the building would be a big mistake for SIPTU as they presently occupy one of the most disingtive landmark buildings in the county not to mention the associations with Connolly, Larkin and the ICA.

From what I have been told by a SIPTU offical, Liberty Hall is a protected structure (I stand corrected if this is untrue). If it isnt it should be, as in historical terms, not architectural, it is a symbol of the first era of confidance in the new Irish state. Busaras may take the honour of being the first building in the city centre to built in the international style but Liberty is by far more recognisible (even if it isnt a good example). That is why reclading would surfice.

Personnally I dont think it impacts negitivly on the Custom House, as Beresford Place allows a enough space for the CH to hold its own. Liberty isnt awarked in shape nor incredibly wide. Looking down river at the CH the hall dosnt effect it at all. To demolish this building is to destroy a symbol of the birth of modern Ireland, when Sean Lemass and T.K. Witaker draged us into the 60s.

Agreed that it little affects the Custom House from the west, but from the east it really does look ridiculous I think.
I’d like to see renderings of the city and Custom House without it next door to make any sort of judgement on its absence.
It’s difficult nowdays to genuinely despise this view all the same – in 1965 it was offensive, in 2005 it’s more humourous 🙂

Overall though yes, it is an iconic structure on a number of levels, and is not what most people could describe as an ‘ugly’ building. Certainly I’ve always liked it, particularly when viewed from the west rising up over the quays, marking the bend in the river and reflecting the late afternoon sun, often dazzlingly lit while dark clouds loom behind. And the roof is still as distinctive as ever, even if it is a contrivance of sorts.
The notion of knocking it purely for a ‘better’ building is simply detestable.

A present crestfield it is not a protected structure.

Right…..

Let them knock it down (Please let them knock it down!) However, i will be the first person to admit that one of my favourite images of Dublin is looking towards the Customs House from the Halfpenny Bridge…its nice..Liberty Hall dominance (?) included….but it could be a whole lot better. Now they have the opportunity…

So, they need to get rid of it but replace it with something stunning. The same height, or taller, that compliments the forementioned image that hopefully will sometime soon in the future include a fantastic structure over Tara Street too. Im thinking along the lines of looking at St.Pauls in London from the Southbank, with the Swiss RE and Tower 42 in sight also….great! Old and modern, creating a fantastic and instantly recognisable view…

The mistake with Liberty Hall is that it looks like something from the 60’s…there are many towers around the world (if you could call LH a tower) that were built in the 60’s, but dont necessarily look like a building of the 60’s. It doesnt have to be ahead of its time….but it needs to be impressively transcient, retaining modernity whatever its age.. We dont want kids in 30 years time to say “that looks like it was built in the 00’s”…we want them to say “wow, that looks awesome”….oblivious to its age cause its not apparent.

Cool.

Oh and incorporate the wavy roof design somewhere in the new design. I think the roof is the only part people kinda like….so use that as its “branding” almost….Keep the “Liberty Hall” brand going….just update and impress….

Cheers

Is not that the equivalant of knocking a Georgian townhouse and retaining the doorcase in the new structure?!

The very appeal of Liberty Hall (well what appeal it has) is that it DOES look of its age – it looks like a 1960s ‘progressive’ structure, the tallest building ever to have been built in the State and an icon of its age.
Under no circumstances should it be demolished to make way for a ‘timeless’ glazed cylinder; if the building has any worth at all it is this very ‘heritage value’ that makes it stand out from the crowd and forces one to think twice about a Dublin without it.

I know it is daft but it would be cool to see the origninal Liberty Hall rebuilt. .. . ..

@ConK wrote:

I know it is daft but it would be cool to see the origninal Liberty Hall rebuilt. .. . ..

A two storey building on that site – er no

i agree. we don’t need another box. a 2 storey building on that site, even a 6 storey building would be a disaster. dublin would look completely different. libertty hall is one of dublin’s defining buildings. i think we should keep anything that goes on that site tall. liberty hall has been part of dublin for 40 years or so and that is a long time. i am very use to it as it has been around for all of my life.

Agreed. Please don’t let them knock Liberty Hall. I bet you anything they will knock it though. Knocking Liberty Hall would be like knocking the Empire State. Empire State is a defining building of New York just like Liberty Hall is a defining building of Dublin. Although Empire State is way better. They should treat Liberty Hall as they are treating Cork County Hall. It has been around for a long time yes and needs to continue to be around. I like Liberty Hall.

TTTTTTTTIIIIIIIIIIIIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMBBBBBBBBBEEEEERRRRRRRRRRR!!!

Knock it, redevelop it, better it.

Y’all make it sound stunning! Its a glass (maybe even perspex) box with some waves on top….das it!

Like it or, Liberty Hall has matured into an iconic structure of Dublin. It certainly stands up better than other structures of it’s era and as such should be sensitively redeveloped. County Hall in Cork was gutted stripped and comprehensively altered despite protected status which screams of hypocrisy. When is an “old” building old? The building stock of Dublin worthy of preservation does not stop circa 1910.
In any case the removal of Lib Hall and redevelopment of the site to a lower (say 5+1) strucutre would actually worsen the effect of O’Connell Bridge house when viewing the Liffey from the West.

@electrolyte wrote:

TTTTTTTTIIIIIIIIIIIIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMBBBBBBBBBEEEEERRRRRRRRRRR!!!

Knock it, redevelop it, better it.

Y’all make it sound stunning! Its a glass (maybe even perspex) box with some waves on top….das it!

It’s certainly not stunning but it has been around a long time and I think that is an important fact. I can’t imagine Dublin without it. It does need plenty of work mind. Drag it into the 21st century I say and keep it tall. 🙂

Personally I’d like to see the whole thing restored to it’s original 60s (pre-bomb) look.

Try thinking of it in this light – Imagine if some victorians said, “sod this – lets put victorian buildings around Merrion Square” – there would be no physical record of the Georgian buildings to look at. Fast forward a few centuries we are looking to get rid of liberty hall (and a few seek to get rid of O’Connell Bridge House) – by doing this we would lose two of the defining buildings of Dublin – like it or not these two 60s buildings are worthy of preservation, purely so that future generations can see these defining buildings.

I’m not an apologist for these buildings and there is plenty of others (Hawkins House, Clanwilliam Court etc) that I’d be delighted to see rid of, as well as most of the legoland crap apartment complexes that have been built in the last 15-20 years.

By all means knock the crap but keep the buildings that define the city.

I’m with Rory – if it is to be kept and upgraded – try and bright back the clarity of the original exterior design – there’s no reason why it couldn’t look very smart again.

for such an inspiring and central location imagine something like renzo piano’s nytimes tower in place of the current yoke. wishful thinking but surely we can do better than this 60’s relic and as for the wavy bits…..come on lads…

i don’t like the green piece of lego on top of liberty hall. it spoils it. when plans came about to build liberty hall back in the sixties was it built according to plan or was it meant to be any different?

As one planner described Liberty Hall it is a bit like any classical building in that it has detailing at both ground level and at the top. I would hate to see the building without this detailing.

Has anything come of proposals to dispose of / redevelop the building or was it merely an idea being floated?

I’d like to see it being redeveloped. I would hate for them to get rid of it altogether and put a box in it’s place. A fresh new Liberty Hall would look nice.

The Liberty Hall should definitely be given a make over….not a botcher contemporary makeover but a restoration job of how it once looked instead. I saw it on ‘Reeling in the Years ‘one evening on the telly when it was first built back in the 60’s and it looked superb. It was a great complimentary building for Scotts Busaras which should be fully restored too. Contemporary makeovers can sometimes ruin buildings, faithful restoration should always be an option.

Many people forget about the context of Liberty Hall in relation to Busaras and I’m sure it was designed with that in mind but that the relationship has been largely altered by the addition of the Irish Life Centre in the 1970’s.

A restoration of Liberty Hall would be desirable but I would have concerns that the original glazing would be difficult to replace given the trend towards lower energy consumption aided by reflective or heavily tinted glass to reduce direct sunlight and consequently air-con requirement.

One thing that has always struck me about liberty hall is the way that people rarely complain about its outdated appearance vis a vis commercial buildings; I wonder is this a subconscious conclusion that because it is a union building it is therefore suited to having a dated context?

I think Liberty Hall should be demolished and all within the complex and rebuild it much higher. There is a huge landbank there besides the central tower piercing the sky above Dublin in two. I say build it up to about 25 storeys with a gorgeous restaurant, gift shop and viewing platform on the top. As well as that rebuild, they could literally put message boards on the side, they could make money on it. People could log on to a website, write a message, have it passed through moderators to make sure its not something slanderous/libellous and pay a fee for it. It could give us some sort of public space in the air for Dublin and give Dublin the air of a hyber-modern Asian megacity.

@Cathal Dunne wrote:

It could give us some sort of public space in the air for Dublin and give Dublin the air of a hyber-modern Asian megacity.

Dublin wouldn’t have the air of a hypermodern asian megacity if you plonked it down in the middle of Hong Kong – what needs to be done is to clean the bejasus out of the place and stop tolerating the filth, drugs and general scumminess of the city (BTW: I love Dublin but it really is getting worse and resembles somewhere like Sheffield – in fact I felt safer going out the last time I was in Sheffield).

As for Liberty hall – restore it

@Rory W wrote:

Dublin wouldn’t have the air of a hypermodern asian megacity if you plonked it down in the middle of Hong Kong – what needs to be done is to clean the bejasus out of the place and stop tolerating the filth, drugs and general scumminess of the city (BTW: I love Dublin but it really is getting worse and resembles somewhere like Sheffield – in fact I felt safer going out the last time I was in Sheffield).

As for Liberty hall – restore it

Spot on Rory,

Here in Paris, even some of the more dodgy council Projects or “Cités” often look tidier than most Dublin streets, but hey, I guess Dirty Dublin simply has a reputation to defend!
Liberty Hall just needs revamping, there are many other buildings in the city that need to be tore down, and I’m thinking especially of new tacky apartment blocks!
Has anyone seen the new apartment block on the site of the old Leinster cinema on Dolphins Barn? It’s about 9 stories high and appears as though it was made of red bricks recuperated from the demolished Fatima Mansion flats down the road from where it stands, it looks dreadful! :

From today’s IT

Should union be at liberty to pull down Hall?

To be, or not to be: that is the stark question hanging over Dublin’s iconic Liberty Hall, writes Frank McDonald , Environment Editor.

LIBERTY Hall occupies a special place in the consciousness of Dublin. Love it or loathe it, the city’s first “skyscraper” was – and still is – the icon of an earlier era, when Dublin was emerging from the pervasive gloom of the 1950s into a period of relative prosperity and hope for the future.

More than four decades after it was officially opened as the proud new headquarters of the Irish Transport and General Workers Union, and despite all the talk and plans to build higher elsewhere, it retains its status as the tallest building in Dublin with 17 storeys that rise to a height of 60 metres (198 feet).

While it was being built in the early 1960s, Dubliners watched with a mixture of awe and excitement as the reinforced concrete structure rose up from Eden Quay. And when it was finally finished in 1965, Liberty Hall was hailed as a “crystal tower” and an “inspiring monument” for Irish trade unionism.

Some commentators were bowled over. “Under the changing skies of our climate – at night lighted up, or in the daytime – it always looks handsome,” said a gushing review in the Irish Builder. “When seen against a blue sky with white clouds sailing over, it has a gossamer quality as charming as a Japanese print scene.”

It lost that quality after a bomb exploded outside the building in 1972. Windows were given a reflective shatterproof coating that took away the transparency it once had while security considerations led to the closure of its observation deck. Mosaic cladding on the edge of each floor also fell into decay and has since disappeared.

Last October, after SIPTU announced that the demolition and replacement of Liberty Hall was being seriously considered, nearly 2,000 people from many parts of Ireland availed of the Architecture Foundation’s Open House weekend to see its interior for themselves and enjoy views of Dublin from the penthouse level.

Antoinette O’Neill, co-ordinator of Open House, said many visitors were shocked by the idea that the city’s tallest building could be lost. “What the huge turnout showed, I think, is that people see Liberty Hall not just as SIPTU’s headquarters, but also as something that belongs to them. So there is this sense of public ownership.”

Desmond Rea O’Kelly, the structural engineer-architect who designed it, was quite overwhelmed by the response: “They were so enthusiastic that I got the impression they were going to get banners and have a protest march there and then.” And naturally, he is upset by the proposal to demolish his magnum opus.

“We all have our vanities, which are hard to suppress,” he said. “One of the other things I also regret very much is that Oisín Kelly’s great sculpture of the young man and the older man admiring their work was never put up outside Liberty Hall.” Ironically, they ended up outside the few-feet-higher Cork County Hall.

Now aged 83, O’Kelly revealed that his inspiration for Liberty Hall was Frank Lloyd Wright’s headquarters for Johnson Wax in Wisconsin.

But he denied that the wavy roof of his tower, with its striped undercroft, was a conscious deference to Busáras. As for its fate, he simply said: “Would they kindly leave it alone till I’m gone.”

For SIPTU, however, it is little more than jaded, dysfunctional office space. The real problem is that its service core – lifts, stairs, toilets, etc – occupies 40 per cent of the 289sq m (3,111sq ft) floorplate at each level, leaving room for relatively pokey offices around the outer edges laid out along quadrangular corridors.

Thus, re-cladding the tower would not solve the “gross-to-net” floor ratio problem. And since the union has resolved to remain on its historic site, all sorts of alternative options – such as converting the building to residential use, with perhaps two L-shaped apartments per floor – have been ruled out of consideration.

SIPTU may be sentimental about the site, but it clearly has no affection for what stands there. After all, it demolished the original Liberty Hall, which had been restored after being shelled during the 1916 Rising, to make way for the present building; it was from there that the rebels formed up to march to the GPO.

Now, the union is planning to demolish its successor. Joe O’Flynn, its Cork-born general secretary, conceded that the 17-storey tower has an iconic status. “Huge consideration was given to this and, as a national organisation, we have a huge responsibility to ensure that the heritage of the site is respected.”

He stressed that SIPTU had no intention of building an eight-storey “square box” simply to maximise the value of this prime city centre site. The development of offices and other facilities which the union had in mind would include a new tower that “should be as elegant as Liberty Hall and become as iconic in time”.

SIPTU needs about 5,000sq m (53,820sq ft) of offices, according to Joe O’Flynn. However, to make the project viable, it would include a further 4,000sq m (43,050sq ft) for commercial letting, as well as space for the union’s college and a hall to replace the existing one, which was renovated only a few years ago.

But any new tower on the site would obviously be more substantial than the existing building. If it is to have a floorplate of, say, 600sq m (6,458sq ft), it would inevitably need to be taller to achieve an appropriate “slenderness ratio”. At a minimum, therefore, it would rise to 87.5 metres – nearly 50 per cent higher.

A design brief for an architectural competition to find such a replacement is now being finalised, and the intention is to advertise it in the EU’s Official Journal. From the expressions of interest, a SIPTU-dominated jury would select a shortlist of entrants for interview and, finally, an architect would be chosen.

Veteran Dublin architect Brian Hogan, who is advising the union, described Liberty Hall as a more high-profile case of older office blocks becoming obsolete: “They have a shorter and shorter lifespan these days. I’ve seen buildings I’ve worked on myself being demolished, but I don’t have strong sentimental views.”

When Liberty Hall was designed in 1958, the ITGWU was organised in small branches for which cellular office space was quite adequate; it was not the corporate body that SIPTU has become. “The original building was replaced in the 1960s, but time has moved on and we need to meet the requirements of the age.”

It will be a matter for Dublin City Council’s planners to decide, or perhaps even the councillors themselves. With the much less prominent Bank of Ireland in Baggot Street in the process of being made a protected structure, the fate of Liberty Hall needs careful consideration and much more public debate.

© 2007 The Irish Times

@Peter FitzPatrick wrote:

From today’s IT

any pics from when it was built?

no just a current pic in todays paper … pics of the original with the transparent glazing are fairly hard to come by … think i came across one in an old capuchin annual will have a look to see if i can route it out…

Sometimes irish sentimentality is truly bewildering
I am sure some of the same people who ‘love’ it now are the same people who would oppose any similar building being constructed elsewhere in the city!
It doesn’t look good, the roof looks terrible and i dont think it has any heritage value whatsover, other than
when peolpe feel sentimental

i was looking up at this today and it looks awful with all the broken windows, it almost looks condemned, i say tear it down first and then spend some time and effort with the replacement

They say in the article that the new tower element would have to be at least 24 floors high to be worth their while.
What do you guys think about that? It would never get PP surely. They did say that a fat 8 story block would not be an option which is good news.

I say keep Liberty Hall!

@lostexpectation wrote:

any pics from when it was built?

@Morlan wrote:

They say in the article that the new tower element would have to be at least 24 floors high to be worth their while.
What do you guys think about that? It would never get PP surely. They did say that a fat 8 story block would not be an option which is good news.

I say keep Liberty Hall!

8 storeys would be an option? Are you mad? No, we need a 25 storey block here IMO. We have to get over this pahtetic argument against highrise because as a Capital city we have been left behind and a couple of 100m + towers in docklands is not going to change that. IMO a 30 storey tower would look well there.

darkman, read my post again.

There is no way that they should be allowed built 20+ stories so close to the Custom House – none at all….. In fact I would go so far as to say they should continue the parapet line of the other buildings on this quay if they pull down Liberty Hall.

Paul, unfortunately unless they do something with the rail bridge the sightlines of the Custom House are already ruined

Has a consensus emerged on whether Liberty Hall should go at all?

@jdivision wrote:

Paul, unfortunately unless they do something with the rail bridge the sightlines of the Custom House are already ruined

The image is interesting in that it shows views of the north Dublin hills prior to development of the Irish Life Centre and that the loopline had no advertising hoardings at least as late mid 1960’s

I thought about this on the way to work this morning; I couldn’t think of any reason why converting a 60m tower into a 90-120m would do any harm. Then it hit me the shodow analysis test may prove that it would have an effect as the tower is due west of the Custom House which may result in shadowing of the Custom House. An independent shadow analysis would sort this out.

One aspect of SIPTU’s argument for replacement that disturbs me is their assertion that it is jaded office space and that they have a right of equivelence to new third or fourth generation space to be paid for by an additional quantum of development. My view on this is that the building must in circumstances where it is owner occupied be considered to be a landlord’s void i.e. the landlord must decide whether they wish to invest to bring the specification up to contemporary norms to attract a tenant on passing income streams.

Why should SIPTU have the planning rules bent so that they can have free offices?

Has a consensus emerged on whether Liberty Hall should go at all?

Sounds like a good idea for an archiseek poll?

I’d be very strongly against getting rid of it at this stage but it certainly needs to be refreshed – preferably restored to it’s original “transparent” form. Whatever your opinions on it, it’s unarguably a Dublin icon and I’m not in favour of iconoclasm. It’s not like we have a large heritage of interesting buildings from that era.

Given its iconic status, you’d imagine that there would be robust arguments for it’s removal in terms of aesthetics. Going on the contents of this thread, all I can find are expressions of personal dislike without any attempt to justify the dislike.

One of the arguments for its replacement amusingly acknowledges its status; paraphrasing from memory: “we want to replace it with something that will acquire similar iconic status after 40 years”. So Liberty Hall is built and is viewed with wonder by Dubliners but shortly afterwards becomes the building everyone loves to say they hate. Then after 30 years of being hated, just as its iconic status is becoming established, knock it down and replace it with a building which will be hated for 40 years before it reaches the status of the current building. :rolleyes:

Especially in it “transparent” form, the building is quite “light” and elegant. The contrast with O’Connell Bridge House is stark and I wouldn’t have any problem with the removal of the latter. Since the primary reason for knocking it is to increase the floor area, its replacement is guaranteed to be heavier and bulkier.

I remember about 10 or 15 years ago trying to argue with friends that what Dublin needed was a SECOND liberty hall across the river on Tara Street. 😀 The idea appealed to my contrarian nature given that at the time expressing hatred of Liberty Hall was even more popular than it is now.

I say knock the damn thing down, a lone tall building looks so provincial, tall buildings need a background of another few tall buildings, that’s been it’s downfall, nothing wrong with the thing itself, just its isolated location.

While we’re at it, bulldoze that monstrosity next to it, the hidious “Irish life mall”, it just screams 80’s sadness from every brick, god, things were bad back then, what….

In an ideal world liberty hall would be levelled and 4 or 5 story building replace it

The loop line underground, with the glory of the customs house fully exposed to rest of the inner city area

Then with the docklands developed into a 21st century fully functional high rise 20, 30 ,even 40 story mini city.
The liffey would be lined with buildings increasing in height all the way to the mouth
This would draw your eye right down to the poolbeg chimneys, (which would no longer be there of course)
with the new city/ old city contrast spectacular
Alas as this did not happen(thank you DDDA and nimbys) i still need my high rise fix
so a taller improved liberty hall will have to do.

I disagree about the Irish Life Centre: it’s not a bad piece of design, just the crude concrete base doesn’t sit well with the dressed brick upper facades, and the tinted glazing is too dark and faintly sleazy for today’s chic tastes. And the copper roofing has aged to a pukey yellowish green that’d remind you of disconcerting stains on an old sofa, rather than a more typical, even green patina. Perhaps it needs more time.

There is no way that a taller tower will be permitted on the Liberty Hall site next to the Custom House, save perhaps an extra 2-3 storeys. Its impact would simply be too great. The slenderness ratio will also have to be retained, so there’s little scope for lateral expansion either – in fact this aspect is even more important than height given the level of impact of additional bulk or volume. So both additional height and width would be necessary in a rebuild, and simply would not be acceptable on such a sensitive site.

One option perhaps could be to sink the theatre underground (part of the complex is already below ground level), and make use of the space it currently occupies, with the potential for a minor setback from the quay parapet. It is a tiny site though.

Ken Finlay Collection

I think it’s largely acknowledged at this stage that the only reason Liberty Hall is acceptable today on that site (and on an already smaller scale then anything proposed) is because of its heritage value. It and the Custom House have become odd bedfellows in a by-now familiar vista that would otherwise be entirely inappropriate on an objective basis. Even to visitors it is clearly an icon of its age and of interest in that respect – for good or bad as they may perceive it. As the state’s first ‘skyscaper’ it has so much heritage value attached, and also because of its association with Ireland’s first post-independence boom.

To knock it down and replace it with a more arrogant tower you not only increase the impact on the neighbouring Custom House and surrounding area, you also lose something of heritage value, and indeed thirdly even the option to restore the quayline and primacy of the Custom House as a next best solution. You lose on all fronts.

Good point jimg on the icon front 😉

The old Liberty Hall that got a few sticking plasters after 1916 – it survived up until the tower was built.

I think it would be a pity if it got the chop, its been there for a generation and I can’t help but like it.

Aesthetically, its cheap and nasty look is mainly due to the windows, A fresh set of windows can’t be that expensive in the scheme of things. Either bring back the original transparent look, or make the reflective windows shinier and sleeker (the mirror style isn’t bad in itself, its the lack of uniformity that makes it look crap).

Compared to Hawkins House, Liberty Hall is the frickin Taj Mahal.

Design competition to replace Liberty Hall

Redevelopment Siptu is to opt for an architectural competition to design a replacement for its headquarters, although it will be a few years yet before Liberty Hall faces the wrecker’s ball, writes Gretchen Friemann

Debate over Liberty Hall’s planned demolition is likely to intensify over the next two weeks when Siptu advertises an architectural competition to design a replacement for the iconic tower.

A large scale heritage centre and a performing arts space are among the features that architects will have to include in their proposal for a new skyscraper.

A notice announcing the competition is due to be published in the EU Official Journal by the end of next week.

Although any decision regarding the 16-storey building’s fate must be taken in conjunction with the planning authorities, the move brings Liberty Hall’s date with the wrecker’s ball ever closer.

However, Siptu’s general secretary, Joe O’Flynn, claims the architectural competition will “realise the very best design” for the union’s next headquarters and insists the new skyscraper will “over time become equally as iconic” as the existing 1960s tower.

The organisation hopes that a comprehensive heritage centre – covering the birth of the labour movement in the early 20th century to the formation of Siptu from the merger of the ITGWU and the FWUI unions in 1990 – will prove to be one of the building’s most popular attractions.

According to O’Flynn, the exhibition will explore the turbulent periods of the 1913 Lockout and the 1916 Rising, as well as provide in-depth analysis of the union’s founding fathers, Jim Larkin and James Connolly.

Siptu expects the widespread interest in the labour movement and its rich history in the foundation of the State will ensure the venture is self-financing, and “can wash its own face”, as one source close to the design process of the new headquarters put it.

The redeveloped site will also include a 200-seat performing arts space, which will double as a theatre and a lecture hall for the heritage centre.

O’Flynn was keen to emphasise the tower’s green credentials, claiming it will be a “zero-energy building” with the latest modern technologies.

However, he also indicated that Siptu would not be embarking on a joint venture with a developer and said the union would prefer to maintain control of the project by contracting out the building work.

The advertisement for the architectural competition will stipulate a large number of design requirements although it will not specify how high the new tower should be.

However, O’Flynn said that if there is sufficient public interest in the design brief for Liberty Hall’s replacement, Siptu will consider publishing a booklet on the architectural requirements.

One thing is certain though, the demolition of the city’s first skyscraper is going to be a long drawn out process.

A decision on the design will not be taken until the end of the year at the earliest and construction on the new tower is likely to be delayed until 2011.

© 2007 The Irish Times

So they are planning a shiny new ‘skyscraper’ to replace this iconic (:confused: ) 1960’s structure
I’m prepared to be bored silly with endless setbacks and changes, anti high rise protests……and so on

the thing is, it’s such a good site (yet small site) that a replacement need not be enormous to be an iconic replacement – witness how the current 13 stories are a symbol of Dublin

the site needs only a good design to work – its not about excessive height or overindulgent “design” but a thoughtul site orientated medium height tower could really work here – odds on Irish winner becuase local knowledge and respect will be more important that any ” international iconic” style design here.

we could end up with a reasonable height replacement with reflective elements for the river; podium height that respect both the railway and the custom house yet provide an exclaimation point from o’connell bridge without breaking 15/17 stories

I always envisioned a ‘transamerica pyramid’ syle building to replace liberty hall, it would look sooo right on that site and would cut down on the ‘blocky’ look of liberty hall in order to reduce a shadow effect over the customs house and neighbouring streets. With that i reckon it could go 20 or more stories and still look inconspicuous but at the same time sleek and eyecatching. The tip of the pyramid could be lit up to mirror the spire and retain the feeling of liberty hall…green perhaps, or does the city centre have enough neon green? And only a meter or so..

@paul h wrote:

it will be a “zero-energy building”

Are Siptu just going to be very lazy then?

@Rory W wrote:

Are Siptu just going to be very lazy then?

Digging the heels in is a fairly energy intensive activity.

Carbon Neutral is the way the business is going. A leading London fund has informed all its managers that all shopping centres in their portfolio are to be carbon neutral by 2010 are they will lose their instructions.

Shopping centres are probably the least energy efficient of any development class.

On Liberty Hall as inefficient as it is the carbon footprint of a replacement would be huge in the absense of green concrete being the industry norm.

As their nearest neighbour spends millions telling reuse, recycle.

This story has a long way to run.

So were stuck with the tattered old façade for another 5 years.

Well, I think one of the problems with liberty hall, is that it is horizontally striped, which as any fashion enthusiast would tell, you, makes it look fatter. A similar sized building, with vertical stripes, a la, the empire state building, would probably look more sleek and graceful, and be more inconspicuous.

@Morlan wrote:

So were stuck with the tattered old façade for another 5 years.

Only if they isolate removal of the existing city icon to replace it with another new similar building.

If the existing building were reclad attractively they could be on site within six months. There is nothing to preclude the owners increasing scale on the Eden Quay section of the site to a more appropriate scale.

Agree on the vertical cladding in common with subtle cladding designs has less impact.

If this site was virgin territory, only a lunatic would build a high-rise tower in front of the Custom House, so why is that being discussed now as if it’s a done deal? This is the same city that has a collective heart attack every time someone suggests anything taller than a bungalow within 10 miles of a Georgian.
CPOs don’t seem to be a problem when it comes to motorways and sports stadiums. Why can’t the council do a swap with SIPTU and take over the site? Why can’t its future be based on aesthetics and heritage instead of whether some union official has enough desk space for his mousepad? It’s mind-boggling that what’s built on one of the most visually sensitive sites in the country is in the hands of the trade union that happens to own it, and made a hames of it 40 years ago.
As it stands, Liberty Hall only makes sense as a 1960s tower, its presence on the skyline tells the story of Ireland in its first boom decade. Love it or hate it, it’s Dublin’s most evocative building of the 20th century. The only justification for knocking it would be to replace it with a low-rise and restore the line of sight to the Custom House. Even then I think it would take a generation to get over the shock of not seeing it.
I don’t think a taller, more “tasteful” tower can be built on this site. I have absolutely no faith in the planners delivering it.
I’m afraid the worst possible outcome is the most likely – a fat, ugly 10-storey compromise that people will be scratching their heads over in 2047.

If this site was virgin territory, only a lunatic would build a high-rise tower in front of the Custom House, so why is that being discussed now as if it’s a done deal? This is the same city that has a collective heart attack every time someone suggests anything taller than a bungalow within 10 miles of a Georgian.
CPOs don’t seem to be a problem when it comes to motorways and sports stadiums. Why can’t the council do a swap with SIPTU and take over the site? Why can’t its future be based on aesthetics and heritage instead of whether some union official has enough desk space for his mousepad? It’s mind-boggling that what’s built on one of the most visually sensitive sites in the country is in the hands of the trade union that happens to own it, and made a hames of it 40 years ago.
As it stands, Liberty Hall only makes sense as a 1960s tower, its presence on the skyline tells the story of Ireland in its first boom decade. Love it or hate it, it’s Dublin’s most evocative building of the 20th century. The only justification for knocking it would be to replace it with a low-rise and restore the line of sight to the Custom House. Even then I think it would take a generation to get over the shock of not seeing it.
I don’t think a taller, more “tasteful” tower can be built on this site. I have absolutely no faith in the planners delivering it.
I’m afraid the worst possible outcome is the most likely – a fat, ugly 10-storey compromise that people will be scratching their heads over in 2047.

The biggest problem with Custom House sight-lines is the Loop Line Bridge, so if you want to get exercised over something, there’s your target.

No arguing against the negative impacts of the historic Loopline inheritance.

However two wrongs do not make a right and Liberty Hall in its present incarnation detracts much focus from the Loopline and is although inappropriately sited it has become part of the furniture.

@fergalr wrote:

The biggest problem with Custom House sight-lines is the Loop Line Bridge, so if you want to get exercised over something, there’s your target.

In an ideal world…
But at least the loopline is a major piece of infrastructure, not a privately-owned stand alone building. And noboby’s proposing to replace it with something potentially uglier.

I’m a film student making a documentary on the present Liberty Hall, I have some archive film and some photos from IAA but if anyone has images (even postcards) or suggestions of where to get some it would be much appreciated. I’m especially interested in anything before the glass was changed after the car bomb in 1972.

Todays Irish times,

Liberty Hall, which has been open since 1965, is scheduled to be demolished in 2009 and its replacement completed 18 months later.
Photograph: Bryan O’Brien

A shortlist of six architects firms has been drawn up to design a replacement for Liberty Hall in the centre of Dublin.

The winning candidate will be chosen at the end of this month after 34 architects firms expressed an interest in the project.

Last year Siptu announced that it wants to replace its headquarters, which was once the highest building in Ireland.

The building brief for the plan envisages a tower which will double the floor space from about 5,500 square metres to 11,000 square metres. That target could be achieved by building slightly higher than the present 16 stories while also building out.

The current Liberty Hall takes up only 40 per cent of the footprint of the site.

There are plans for an auditorium, a sky deck cafe and a union heritage centre.

Opened in 1965, Liberty Hall has been a controversial building since its inception and has now outlasted its usefulness.

Siptu advertised internationally in August and the initial list was whittled down from 34 to six last week.

A team of three consultant architects and two senior Siptu officials, general secretary Joe O’Flynn and the president Jack O’Connor, will decide the winning firm after interviews later this month.

The winner will be put to the union’s national executive committee for approval next month.

The design stage will only begin after the winning bid is chosen.

Consultant architect Brian Hogan said: “Siptu would much prefer to appoint an architect on the basis of his past work, his experience and his reputation.”

Mr Hogan said the trade union would work with that architect from the beginning “looking at the options available so that the union feels that it owns the concept”.

Siptu hopes to have planning permission secured in the middle of next year.

All going to plan, Liberty Hall will be demolished in 2009 and the project will be completed 18 months after that.

No figure has been given by Siptu for the cost of replacing Liberty Hall, but the union envisages 4,000 square metres (or about 40 per cent of the total floor space) will be left for commercial development to help pay for it.

Mr O’Flynn said Siptu would consider a commercial partner for the project, but only if it was felt that one was needed.

“A number of commercial interests have visited us and spoken to us about getting involved in the project, but we have decided that all of the initial preparation will be done directly by ourselves, “he added.

“The preferred option is to complete the project by ourselves.”

© 2007 The Irish Times

any one know the short list???

this is dreadful. Liberty Hall is an icon and better than anything new in the docklands or elsewhere

Ah its feckin ugly!!!! One of the worst eyesores in Dublin. Not quite as bad as Hawkins House, thank god but ugly all the same. At least Liberty and Hawkins will be finally laid to rest!!! If they had done some sort or renovation, it “may” have looked nice but as it is, it’s just a low/medium rise 1960’s ugly piece of crap with horrible floor space utiliaztion. Can’t wait for the new plans to come to fruition. 😀

Even if you hate Liberty Hall, the brief is for a building TWICE THE SIZE! They know they won’t be allowed go much higher so that means pretty much twice as bulky. You’d want to have a lot of faith in SIPTU to think a fat, 20-storey noughties version of Liberty Hall is going to be any kind of improvement…

Yep I really can’t imagine the socialist/trade union movement being up to the task of providing the outstanding architectual landmark that should be required to remotely justify a building of this size on the site.

Oh wouldn’t it be nice if liberty hall could be cpo’d, flattened to the height of its Eden quay neighbours, and SIPTU packed off down to the docklands or somewhere…

JoePublic: they will never leave, this was the site of their HQ during the glory days of the great lockout and the neither king nor kaiser photo!

I will certainly miss this building.

I don’t think the majority of Dubliners will miss this hideous monstrosity (I’ve never heard anyone have a kind word for it except on this board).

I just hope what we get instead isn’t worse. Let’s hope the planners are up to the task of sending SIPTU back to the drawing board as many times as are necessary to get a design of the required standard. The required standard being extraordinary, giving the impact this building will have.

@notjim wrote:

I will certainly miss this building.

Sad to see it go too & quite worried about this as Andrew mentioned …

“the plan envisages a tower which will double the floor space from about 5,500 square metres to 11,000 square metres”

So are we looking at Central Bank proportions here !?

Mounting an external lift shaft on the north east corner would free up substantial floor space …

@ake wrote:

this is dreadful. Liberty Hall is an icon and better than anything new in the docklands or elsewhere

Sort of agree with you on this one, I quite like the towers there at Ulster Bank / Tara St station, but otherwise most of the ‘high rise’ in the area is just crap.
I quite like Alto Vetro though, it’s interesting that they even bothered with a “high rise” on such a small plot.

What planning permission is needed for this?
Is the plan to knock and clear the site – and then gain permission for the new build?
Or is permission needed to knock it in the first place?
Anyone know?

well you can be assured that several different types of planning permission will be required, because it’s unofficially part of irish law that politicians should be bribed as many times as possible for each project.

You need planning permission to demolish buildings.

We’ll live to regret destroying our 60s architetural heritage. There’s practically nothing going to be left in a few years. Hawkings house will be gone, Liberty hall will be gone and the county hall in Cork is as good as gone.

Shame really. I dont know what the finished building will be like, but I have the feeling that it will hardly be as good as Liberty Hall.

cork county hall gone? sure it was only done up a few years ago.

A photo of the original building before the glass was changed and the mosaics covered over

sorry about that its a bit big but I can not work out how to undo it!

Excellent Paddy, I’ve often looked high and low for a good image of Liberty Hall in its original state … and you’ve one in colour no less !

Can I ask where you got it from & if you’ve any more to add ? a shot from further back would be great.

The original glazing changes its appearance entirely, lovely crisp lines.
It’s really worthy of retention & a restore/refurb, head & shoulders above its 60’s sisters, O’Connell & Hawkins.

@Peter FitzPatrick wrote:

Can I ask where you got it from & if you’ve any more to add ? a shot from further back would be great.

There’s this one from earlier in the thread

thanks, i’m familiar with that one alright morlan … I had a lovely shot, taken from a capuchin annual i think, of the original building against the setting sun, could never find the damn thing though when i went looking. Thats the first decent colour shot i’ve seen.

While the B&W photo makes it look ok, the old colour photo clearly shows it to be the ugly building that we all know and love (to hate). I can clearly see now why they ‘tried’ to make it look better with the changes to the windows etc…

I’m afraid I have to say I look forward to having it replaced. But big question is, with what and will the replacement be as bad or even worse. :rolleyes:

Ah the Liberty Hall will be missed . It’s looks good from down the quays looking up the river. The new 14 storey structure down Pearse Street kinda pays homage to it. I hope a new replacement will be just as much a landmark.

I don’t really buy the argument about it looking much better than Hawkin’s house. Yes it’s not as ugly as Hawkins house, but it is FAR more visible from many places in the city.

Oh how good it will be to see the wrecking ball come in…

I remember reading that the footprint of the tower is one quarter of the site. If they built at a uniform height on the whole site at a reasonably low height (maybe 6 storeys plus obligatory setback?) could they achieve their goal of increasing the square footage? I’m not against highrise, but this just was never the place for it – wouldn’t it be great if this mistake could be corrected.

Can’t agree weehamster & joe …

The original glazing gave it a lightness of touch, the reflective stuff (added only after a number of the original’s were blown out) can look ok from a distance but is just tack up close.

There is no comparison between liberty hall & hawkins.
The former is proportionate & reasonably slender with extensive glazing reducing its impact while the latter is cumbersome & bloated with shocking integration at street level, creating an acre of dead space.

Either way, both are to come down in the coming years, i doubt liberty’s replacement will be any better.

There’s no way the replacement will be less obtrusive.

@Paddy wrote:

Todays Irish times,

The building brief for the plan envisages a tower which will double the floor space from about 5,500 square metres to 11,000 square metres. That target could be achieved by building slightly higher than the present 16 stories while also building out.

© 2007 The Irish Times

Yeah but exactly how much higher are they talking, 20 stories 25 maybe.im happy to see the back of it and how can you say its replacement wont be much better?its old and dilapated and needs to come down

they’ll double the area by building to the same height but over the entire site

Here’s an off-the-cuff calculation with these assumptions: liberty hall is 16 stories, remaining buildings are 4 stories, liberty hall takes up one quarter of the site area. Maybe these assumptions are faulty.

Current site therefore has 28 (16 + 3×4) liberty hall ‘units’. By building an 8 storey ugly box they could have 32 (4×8) liberty hall units, plus savings on the service core (which I understand is one of the big problems in the current layout).

So the question is which is worse: a new 8 storey ugly square box, the current 16 storey ugly rectangular box, or a new 16 storey fatter ugly rectangular box.

🙂

I have to agree with Peter Fitzpatrick, I think its such a different building now from the original design. I got the images from the Architect Desmond Rea O’Kelly,his wife took them. I just finishing a documentary film I made about the building. I also noticed how hard it is to come across images of it in its original state, funny for a building that is so prominent. I’d love to see that shot you were talking about Peter if you ever dig it out or if any one else has any images I would appreciate if you would pass them on.
For me it is a simple elegant design that has been allowed to fall into an awful state, I think if it were restored or if more people saw it as it was it would be more loved. I agree that we will regret knocking these buildings that have not been given a chance to age properly while been maintained. Its only 40 years old!
I too am not so hopeful for the new building, the beauty of Liberty Hall is that it does only occupy a small portion of the site and is not greedy in the skyline, imagine the bulk of the whole site going up to the same height.

an unusual prediction of the future in a fish tank in crumlin hospital!

!

Heheh – thanks for those Paddy 😀

Well from what I’ve gathered from this saga from the start is that Siptu simply will not countenance a non-impacting structure on this site. Their ego if anything is greater now than it was in 1965; the driving force behind this proposal is ‘a building for the 21st century’ (yawn), as much as it is the commercial benefits. They want a tower at all costs.

As such, it seems likely that a similarly-scaled tower will be proposed, maybe a couple of storeys taller and slightly wider that the current arrangement. The crucial point is the reference to ‘tower’ in the article; it’s hard to know if the accommodation of the stated floorspace in a tower rather than a tower plus other buildings was just an interpretation on the part of the journalist.

There’s no way that a Central Bank-like structure will get approval, nor should it. Similarly a substantially taller tower on the site will not pass either. It seems a high density of maybe seven storeys across the rest of the site is being depended on to justify a barely-larger tower. Which if the case, would make justification for the current tower’s demolition all the more dubious.

A couple of shots of how lovely it looked a few hours ago in the soft evening sun.

It always makes for a charmingly whimsical point of interest on the skyline – I don’t understand how someone could be offended by it, even if just not a fan. But offensive it is not.

So what’s the likelihood of a quiet little listing proposal being slipped into City Hall? I don’t think this should be allowed go without at least a public debate on the matter. Frankly it’s not Siptu’s decision to pull the building down. It belongs to the city.

Now its demise is imminent, should Liberty Hall be listed for preservation?

i have 10 photoshop mockups that lead to my 2 key concepts however im not releasing them yet… :p

go on shamrockmetro I’d be keen to see them

@shamrockmetro wrote:

i have 10 photoshop mockups that lead to my 2 key concepts however im not releasing them yet… :p

Single issue candidates will be the death of this country.

no bridge?
no liberty hall?
no ifsc ??

here is the low rez one!

but i have a strange feeling we will get a new liberty hall

@Pepsi wrote:

cork county hall gone? sure it was only done up a few years ago.

I said it was as good as gone. Shay Healy’s Louvers took away what made it a sixties biulding – the concrete crosses that were all over the building.

Wow – interesting view shamrockmetro. The Custom House looks so, well, Venetian! Lazily sunning itself along the waters’ edge. Why do I get the impression it’s larger-scaled than it should be though?

Psssing Liberty Hall this evening was the first time it really stood out to me as a Sixties building. Being so familar, it’s easy just to accept it as ‘Liberty Hall’ rather than ‘1960’s skyscraper’, which the latter is to any outside observer. Very few other cities have a singular lack of tall buildings in their centre with a distinctive exception of 1960’s design relative to the impact that Liberty Hall has on the small skyline of Dublin. It’s so clearly of it’s time that it must be a joy to stumble upon for the first time, and fully restored we ought to be able to appreciate that too.

Interpreting it in that way makes you see it in an entirely different light, and it becomes a fascinating piece of built heritage as much as all the usual suspects. In fact, people should make an effort to go out and have a good look at with this in mind – I don’t think we’ve quite copped on to the fact that there’s a 17-storey 1960’s tower slap bang in the middle of Dublin! What a freak development, and equally what a freak survivor.

Let’s list this building, and look back in twenty years time when the city is liberally peppered with mediocre 32-storey buildings and be able to still look up at the prototype, the original. And there’s little doubt in my mind that it will be the only tower that people will hold a true affection for.

@GrahamH wrote:

Wow – interesting view shamrockmetro. The Custom House looks so, well, Venetian! Lazily sunning itself along the waters’ edge. Why do I get the impression it’s larger-scaled than it should be though?

Psssing Liberty Hall this evening was the first time it really stood out to me as a Sixties building. Being so familar, it’s easy just to accept it as ‘Liberty Hall’ rather than ‘1960’s skyscraper’, which the latter is to any outside observer. Very few other cities have a singular lack of tall buildings in their centre with a distinctive exception of 1960’s design relative to the impact that Liberty Hall has on the small skyline of Dublin. It’s so clearly of it’s time that it must be a joy to stumble upon for the first time, and fully restored we ought to be able to appreciate that too.

Interpreting it in that way makes you see it in an entirely different light, and it becomes a fascinating piece of built heritage as much as all the usual suspects. In fact, people should make an effort to go out and have a good look at with this in mind – I don’t think we’ve quite copped on to the fact that there’s a 17-storey 1960’s tower slap bang in the middle of Dublin! What a freak development, and equally what a freak survivor.

Let’s list this building, and look back in twenty years time when the city is liberally peppered with mediocre 32-storey buildings and be able to still look up at the prototype, the original. And there’s little doubt in my mind that it will be the only tower that people will hold a true affection for.

What an absolutely brilliant post!

Im sure there are some posters on archiseek that if liberty hall was not threatened they would look at it with disgust and use it as an example of why there should be no high rise built anywhere
But now because it is threatened there is a new found love , it is absolutely baffling to me

No new found love with me, I’ve always liked it … whereas I wouldn’t mind seeing the back of O’Connell Bridge House, Hawkins, Apollo & friends … its in a different league imo.

I hope this is true…

Gilroy McMahon have been chosen as architects for the redevelopment of Liberty Hall.

They have been picked from a shortlist by the executive council of the Siptu trade union, which owns the building. An invitation for expressions of interest attracted 34 architectural practices across European, Siptu says.

A short list of six practices were then selected for interview.

Announcing the appointment, SIPTU General Secretary, Joe O’Flynn said he hoped the replacement building for Liberty Hall will become as familiar a part of the Dublin skyline as the existing building when it is completed in about four years.

“SIPTU is conscious of the union’s place in the community and will be mindful of that in developing the project.

“This venture will preserve the union’s long association with the current historical site and its commitment to the struggle for workers rights from its foundation in 1909 to its role in advancing the cause of exploited workers in modern Ireland to securing positive change for workers through Social Partnership,” he said.

The interview panel comprised; Joan O’Connor former President of the RIAI and Director Interactive Project Managers Ltd., Pat Cooney, Head Architect OPW, John O’Connor Architect and County Manager of Fingal County Council, Jack O’Connor, SIPTU General President and Joe O’Flynn, SIPTU General Secretary.

im going to appeal it…

with a better design…

hmmm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/73039906@N00/1969700636/

tivoli 😀

Anyone else see the Liberty Hall feature on City Channel last night ? only got the last 5 minutes, showed Liberty in a positive light & discussed its likely demise … Paddy (who posted a few pages back i think) was also interviewed about his film & efforts to stir up some support for this old lady.

Nice to see it get some attention, though with an overiding sense that demolition is really a fait accompli.

I find it hard to imagine Dublin without it 🙁
(yeah yeah i know its sentimental & i don’t give a shite!)

I don’t about this project…
I think a mega tower above connolly aligned with talbot st might be a bitter option or somewhere else

@missarchi wrote:

I don’t about this project…
I think a mega tower above connolly aligned with talbot st might be a bitter option or somewhere else

well that’s up to your usual standard

‘Liberty Hall’ a Protected Structure, I dunno about that. Despite some peoples misguided affection, I cant see a rationale to argue for its preservation on Architectural grounds as you could with the BOI HQ. The only basis for its statutory preservation would be on Historical grounds. On that interesting to a note a similar debate in Sydney in the 1990’s regarding AMP Tower on Circular Quay. A curtain wall 60’s office block granted heritage status by reason of the fact it was Sydney’s first permitted Skyscraper. See link below.

http://www.sydneyarchitecture.com/ROC/QUA11.htm

But thats only relevant in the context of the monoliths its facilitated and that now surround it. Hard to make a similar case for Liberty Hall.

My view, tear it down and lets get a 21st century ‘iconic’ building here.

@Westie wrote:

Despite some peoples misguided affection, I cant see a rationale to argue for its preservation on Architectural grounds as you could with the BOI HQ.

Whatever about the latter, affection cannot be misguided. If people like it, they like it.

@Peter Fitz wrote:

Whatever about the latter, affection cannot be misguided. If people like it, they like it.

Why do people like it ?. Just because its been there for 40 odd years. Its a bug bearer I have with Dubliners and I think indicative of many of the problems Dublin faces. Its not that people love LIberty Hall, its that they really just dont like change, they’d prefer to retain an ugly 60.’s eyesore than risk replacing it with something new and innovative. Only in Dublin could people possibly have a cultural affection for two overbearing nondescript chimney stacks which ruin an otherwise stunning bay area. I think this ‘Dublin in the rare oul times’ attitude shows a lack of self-confidence and is at the root of why we have no iconic 21st century architecture in this city, why the high rise debate is so contentious, why the docklands (the best opportunity we had to go crazy architecturally) look like something from an IKEA flatpack and why planning generally in this city is soooo frustrating.

I feel much better after that vent 😉

KNOCK IT!! And replace it with a modern high rise building:D

@Westie wrote:

Why do people like it ?. Just because its been there for 40 odd years. Its a bug bearer I have with Dubliners and I think indicative of many of the problems Dublin faces. Its not that people love LIberty Hall, its that they really just dont like change, they’d prefer to retain an ugly 60.’s eyesore than risk replacing it with something new and innovative. Only in Dublin could people possibly have a cultural affection for two overbearing nondescript chimney stacks which ruin an otherwise stunning bay area. I think this ‘Dublin in the rare oul times’ attitude shows a lack of self-confidence and is at the root of why we have no iconic 21st century architecture in this city, why the high rise debate is so contentious, why the docklands (the best opportunity we had to go crazy architecturally) look like something from an IKEA flatpack and why planning generally in this city is soooo frustrating.

I feel much better after that vent

Whats not to like? its a simple structure, decent proportions, clean lined & originally fairly light in appearance given its size. Overall I think its a decent representative of its time & deserves to be appropriately refurbished & retained.

Failure to maintain any structure other than solid glass over its lifetime will generally leave it looking like crap.

You needn’t worry Westie, i doubt i represent the view of the majority,

I disagree Westie. Completely. Far from people not liking change, most of the recent recladding and rectifying of 1960s and particularly 1970s horrors across the city of late has been thoroughly welcomed. These have been improving redevelopments of urban infill and (generally) have contributed significantly to the design qualities and wider image of the city. While representative of their time, the former structures generally had little architectural merit or cultural meaning – they are generally painlessly replaced.

By contrast, Liberty Hall, and indeed the Poolbeg Chimneys, are very much iconic structures, and in a way that structures often touted as iconic rarely are. They embody significances – and it is all about significance – that go beyond the ordinary. These range from acting as instantly recognisable icons of Dublin, to being representations of their time in terms of 1) architectural/engineering form and design, 2) cultural aspirations, and 3) economic progress and development, as well as forming part of an established and often loved townscape and/or landscape. It is the combination of these elements in such concentrations that lend these structures, and buildings like them, their special status.

I fail to understand how the retention of Liberty Hall (a concept in itself I do no consider an arbitary one) can be deemed to exhibit a lack of self-confidence. Indeed the very notion of such is ever so slightly farcial in the context of the biggest chance this state has ever had to express itself in a modern idiom, which has so dismally failed in terms of ambition, lies directly adjacent to Liberty Hall – in fact the tower positively heralds the very arrival of what could have been. And yet it is this very building – one of the few structures in the city that really was ambitious for its age, if rudely positioned – that is claimed to lack all self-confidence by its retention.

If anything, Liberty Hall can stand smug and ever-confident on the preeminent site in the city, overlooking the acres of this ‘progress’ these cutting-edge times have the ability to bring us. Perhaps the desire to knock Liberty Hall stems from this very embarrassment of its supremity over the very development that was supposed to usurp it.

Unless more building would be going up in the surrounding area, its pointless to put something bigger in its place.

Using the theatre as well as liberty hall is the only way to get a good building in there, something to be proad of. The space is too small to stick anything good unless other buildings nearby complemented it.

Whats Tara street station going to look like? Thats the big question. Somethings going ontop of it, so whatever that looks like that will help determin what Liberty hall’s future state should be. If anything it should stay similar or simply stay.

One idea could be to use the theatre site to build something along side it that connects too its western face. Completly alter the tower, but keep most of it. Difficult and mad, and could look like frankenstein’s monster, but its just an idea.

If irish life was visable in the sky line it would be so bad either, but its squat and brown. A nice design, but it needs a good lick of paint and more plants.

Oh and please, if Tara Street is going up up and away. Please could they take down DOHC. Thats just awful. Even nestled between 4 and 5 story buidlings that concrete legoblock is just awful. And that building behind it is no better.

@Denton wrote:

Unless more building would be going up in the surrounding area, its pointless to put something bigger in its place.

Using the theatre as well as liberty hall is the only way to get a good building in there, something to be proad of. The space is too small to stick anything good unless other buildings nearby complemented it.

Whats Tara street station going to look like? Thats the big question. Somethings going ontop of it, so whatever that looks like that will help determin what Liberty hall’s future state should be. If anything it should stay similar or simply stay.

One idea could be to use the theatre site to build something along side it that connects too its western face. Completly alter the tower, but keep most of it. Difficult and mad, and could look like frankenstein’s monster, but its just an idea.

If irish life was visable in the sky line it would be so bad either, but its squat and brown. A nice design, but it needs a good lick of paint and more plants.

Oh and please, if Tara Street is going up up and away. Please could they take down DOHC. Thats just awful. Even nestled between 4 and 5 story buidlings that concrete legoblock is just awful. And that building behind it is no better.

Liberty hall is a total monstrosity that contributes a huge amount to the rundown feel of Dublin from O’Connell Bridge. Both that and that Heineken building should be torn down, the bridge should be refurbished, and all that revolting signage either side of O’Connell Street should be removed.

The area of liberty hall should be returned to the same scale as the surrounding buildings, perhaps it could be a perfect location for a new Abbey Theatre, perhaps still attached to the old abbey theatre so that it retains an element of authenticity. Siptu should be given a plot of land on the docklands and be told they can build 30 storeys if they want to. This is all common sense and nobody could possibly disagree.

Quite like this shot posted by GrahamH on another thread.

Obviously don’t agree Shane. However if we are to get some sort of bloated replacement, i would prefer to see the quay line reinstated. It could have made a good location for the new Abbey though, pivotal corner site with river frontage & near enough to the original too !

All dream stuff though, siptu always unlikely to give up that site & both decisions long since made. Will be very interested to see what Gilroy McMahon come up with.

i’m betting my money on these options

a) the clearest smoothest most transparent building money can buy and maybe bricks to the quay line 😉

http://www.flickr.com/photos/misterrad/113251567/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/laserbub/245173760/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lazyjones/2625194548/

(except clear)

the big question is will the floor plate get bigger… the site is just so tight mabye there are talking with Irish life?
And will there be some green cooper in the mix… and the green stuff;)

@shanekeane wrote:

Liberty hall is a total monstrosity that contributes a huge amount to the rundown feel of Dublin from O’Connell Bridge. Both that and that Heineken building should be torn down, the bridge should be refurbished, and all that revolting signage either side of O’Connell Street should be removed.

The area of liberty hall should be returned to the same scale as the surrounding buildings, perhaps it could be a perfect location for a new Abbey Theatre, perhaps still attached to the old abbey theatre so that it retains an element of authenticity. Siptu should be given a plot of land on the docklands and be told they can build 30 storeys if they want to. This is all common sense and nobody could possibly disagree.

It’s not common sense and I disagree.

Both O’Connell Bridge House and Liberty Hall should be preserved, love them or hate them they are part of what makes Dublin ‘Dublin’. Liberty Hall should be refurbished to the original spec and then it wouldn’t look rundown at all. Siptu will always want to retain a presence on a historical site rather than be fecked off down the docks.

And quite why the abbey theatre should move to a smaller narrower site is beyond me.

being from a far away place O’Connell bridge house stinks and so do some of the departments in it…

while I respect liberty halls position it is dated and questionable…

A few years ago you might say I lost a job to these objectors of tall buildings what strikes me is if you have enough power you seem to be able to do what you want in this city… in some cases its good in some cases its bad…

Rory while I take your point its like saying joepublic can build as high as anyone else in the city and knock down anything they want equal planning… but the planning is not equal and fair… this is what is sad…

the truth is bridge house and liberty hall are not unique buildings worthy now of indefinite preservation and that’s why they are looking at knocking it down and starting fresh… it’s plain and simple…

buildings must stand the test of time!!!

@missarchi wrote:

being from a far away place O’Connell bridge house stinks and so do some of the departments in it…

while I respect liberty halls position it is dated and questionable…

A few years ago you might say I lost a job to these objectors of tall buildings what strikes me is if you have enough power you seem to be able to do what you want in this city… in some cases its good in some cases its bad…

Rory while I take your point its like saying joepublic can build as high as anyone else in the city and knock down anything they want equal planning… but the planning is not equal and fair… this is what is sad…

the truth is bridge house and liberty hall are not unique buildings worthy now of indefinite preservation and that’s why they are looking at knocking it down and starting fresh… it’s plain and simple…

buildings must stand the test of time!!!

What departments are in O’Connell Bridge House? The CSO used to be there but I think it’s all commercially let now. Just because something is dated doesn’t mean it’s not worthy of restoration/preservation as examples of 1960s architecture – sure get rid of Hawkins House, Apollo House etc but I believe that Liberty Hall and O’Connell Bridge house are worth keeping as they are unique in a Dublin context. They were built pre the planning act so that’s why they are taller than others built since then.

You may not like them but I think keep them, if not then in 40 years time well be proposing the demolition of their replacements and one of the charms of Dublin is it’s mixture of buildings. Otherwise we’ll end up with Georgian and then ultra modern with nothing inbetween

Buildings ony become truly iconic when they become emblematic of an era/ place/ event. The poolbeg stacks and liberty house are certainly emblems of Dublin so I definiteley think they should be retained.

The renovation and adaptation of buildings is also poised to become one of the biggest sustainability issues over the next few years. This idea that a buildings utility is exhausted after a mere forty/fifty years is ridiculous. The destruction of buildings such as liberty hall is a needless waste of time, resources, money and energy.

We would be much better served by imaginative ideas for adaptation than just wiping the slate clean and starting over.

reddy: absolutely – however, some of our younger colleagues have a memory span of three weeks and can’t wait for a city of high-rises and glass fronts; so cool, man.

@johnglas wrote:

reddy: absolutely – however, some of our younger colleagues have a memory span of three weeks and can’t wait for a city of high-rises and glass fronts; so cool, man.

Totally agree and there is no better example of a building representing a particular era both at the time and as a symbol of modernity for the next 30 plus years.

It is shocking that this building which only needs an internal refurb and external recladding is facing the chop; you could understand if this was a property play but its a frickin union imitating those they caricature.

Get it listed

I am going to be really basic and silly by saying I love the green wavey metallic top of Liberty Hall. All Liberty Hall needs is a good spruce up and recladding. And some fancy nice lights at night time for the green wavey top.

@Peter Fitz wrote:

Whats not to like? its a simple structure, decent proportions, clean lined & originally fairly light in appearance given its size. Overall I think its a decent representative of its time & deserves to be appropriately refurbished & retained.

Failure to maintain any structure other than solid glass over its lifetime will generally leave it looking like crap.

You needn’t worry Westie, i doubt i represent the view of the majority,

it seems to me that nobody but nobody thinks that this building should be left like it is. what about if we returned to it to how it looked in the sixties? im guessing nobody’s in favour of that either. i’ll tell you why, because it’s an ugly building which might be made acceptable by being completely redone in a modern style. the problem is that if it’s redone, it’s no longer a representative of its time. so we might as well pull it down because it ruins the quays and because the city centre belongs to everybody, not just to fans of short lived architectural styles, and making it a pleasant, aesthetically pleasing place to live in is for the benefit of most people. the very centre of dublin and of ireland is o’connell bridge and i think it says a lot about this country that almost every direction you look in you see a new monstrosity.

@shanekeane wrote:

it seems to me that nobody but nobody thinks that this building should be left like it is. what about if we returned to it to how it looked in the sixties? im guessing nobody’s in favour of that either. i’ll tell you why, because it’s an ugly building which might be made acceptable by being completely redone in a modern style. the problem is that if it’s redone, it’s no longer a representative of its time. so we might as well pull it down because it ruins the quays and because the city centre belongs to everybody, not just to fans of short lived architectural styles, and making it a pleasant, aesthetically pleasing place to live in is for the benefit of most people. the very centre of dublin and of ireland is o’connell bridge and i think it says a lot about this country that almost every direction you look in you see a new monstrosity.

No it should be returned to how it looked in the 60’s – what you see now is a bastardised version of the original, following the bombing in 1973 the windows were replaced with horrible reflective glass (loosing the original transparency) which is now flaking, the mosaic has been plastered over, the lighting scheme for the building was repaired once in the 1990s (and the roof looked great).

In essence the building has not been maintained, if it were refurbished to original spec it would look great. Reopen the observation platform on the roof which was closed due to the troubles (which are over for 10 years now) and make Liberty Hall great again.

When I think of how glass can either age or reinvigorate a building I think of this. Built in the 1970s and still works today
http://www.fosterandpartners.com/Projects/0102/Default.aspx

Hi all – long time reader, first time poster.
Not sure if anyone here has spent any time working in Liberty Hall. I have – and it’s a lousy place to work. Most of the floor space is taken up by the lift shafts, and the offices are very cramped. It’s not a great place to spend any time in at all. The staff working there had to be moved out because the electricity cabling went awry a couple of years ago, and I believe the basement flooded as well. It’s not really fit for purpose any more.

Because it’s such an iconic building, my preference is to have it redesiged, looking the more or less the same externally, perhaps with a couple more stories, but to have a modern and sophisticated approach to the interior design and infrastructure of the building, and then dismantle the existing one and build the new design.

i think if handled properly it could be Dublin’s answer to The gherkin building

@Pot Noodle wrote:

i think if handled properly it could be Dublin’s answer to The gherkin building

just look at the comments Dunne has received for his diamond!
its going to end in tears…

anyway I hope they release the design soon it will be the talk of the town!

liberty hall reminds me of that dark lone scraper in paris with the fastest lifts!
I would bet the central bank has the strongest core in Ireland…

@tomcosgrave wrote:

Hi all – long time reader, first time poster.
Not sure if anyone here has spent any time working in Liberty Hall. I have – and it’s a lousy place to work. Most of the floor space is taken up by the lift shafts, and the offices are very cramped. It’s not a great place to spend any time in at all. The staff working there had to be moved out because the electricity cabling went awry a couple of years ago, and I believe the basement flooded as well. It’s not really fit for purpose any more.

Commercial landlords will refit every 15-20 years renewing all mechanical and electrical services; I do sympathise with you having to put up with those conditions but it is felt that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is not the solution.

Think Treasury building on Grand Canal Street where the interiors were replaced and cladding replaced but all based around the original structure and it didn’t even have a cute roof!!

To demolish Liberty Hall would be an injustice. It is an iconic building in Dublin and should be kept. It’s not perfect, but it symbolises the time and i don’t think it’s that bad looking

@missarchi wrote:

i’m betting my money on these options

a) the clearest smoothest most transparent building money can buy and maybe bricks to the quay line 😉

http://www.flickr.com/photos/misterrad/113251567/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/laserbub/245173760/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lazyjones/2625194548/

(except clear)

the big question is will the floor plate get bigger… the site is just so tight mabye there are talking with Irish life?
And will there be some green cooper in the mix… and the green stuff;)

i like the herald
Sun building one the best

For all you lovers of Liberty, I Goes Up Liberty Hall 😀

If we were talking about retaining Liberty hall as an object for posterity or as a symbol of Dublin obviously it is a given that it should be retained and refurbished under the auspices of another Organisation. I do however feel it needs to be undelined that the structure of the building -i.e. the rc core- takes up 50% of the floorplate. No amount of “refitting” or “modernisation” will alter this fact.

In a similar vein, This means that the building – no matter how much money you spend on making it “look” better – or even bringing it back to it’s original appearance- will make it WORK better in as much as what SIPTU need from the structure: more floorspace and less segmentation and hierarchy in their offices. Put simply; the building does not work and cannot be made to work for its users. Surely the discourse should take this into account rather than focusing entirely upon aesthetics…

because siptu need a 14 story building?… or another highrise if the demolish this one.

Surely the discourse should take this into account rather than focusing entirely upon aesthetics…

If you don’t like the building just say so. The modern utility of a building is not that significant when it comes to discussing whether an iconic building should be preserved. If it were you could use it as a justification to knock pretty much every single building over 40 years old in the city. I mean why keep all those Georgian buildings when they are obviously not that usable as modern offices or as modern dwellings?

Property slump saves Liberty Hall
The Sunday Tribune

The country’s largest trade union, Siptu, has become the latest victim of the property slump and has decided to postpone plans to demolish and redevelop its landmark Liberty Hall headquarters in Dublin. After considering whether to sell what was Ireland’s first ‘skyscraper’, the union finally decided to redevelop the historic 16-storey building and replace it with an 11,000 square-metre development which will be the national headquarters of Siptu. It will also include commercial office space, which the union hopes to lease to defray the cost of the development. The development also includes a roof-level viewing platform and cafe, a large underground heritage centre relating to the rise of organised labour and national independence, and a 250-seat auditorium and public amenity space . Demolition of the adjoining theatre was supposed to start last July but the property slump meant the prospect of the union leasing offices in the new development disappeared. The global credit crunch also ensured that Siptu had little chance of getting a loan for such a costly development. In addition, the union’s centenary is next year and senior Siptu officials felt that it would be better to be at home for the event rather than scattered throughout the capital while its birthplace was being demolished.

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2008/nov/02/property-slump-saves-liberty-hall/

More great news for tireless archiseekers, isn’t it great that all we’ve been asking for over the last few years we’re finally getting?

I mean liberty hall, dontcha just love it.

Now once that white-elephant metro north gets the chop, we can retire the board, job well done :rolleyes:

I thought the union would be the one ready for a rainy day:mad:
and buck the trend… Still the plans have not been posted anywhere…
maybe a wait and see. If metro or dart underground get the chop it
will be the nail in the coffin for Ireland…

@missarchi wrote:

If metro or dart underground get the chop it
will be the nail in the coffin for Ireland…

I’ll be with you on the first plane to Oz when it happens Missarchi

I quite like Liberty Hall.

Not too keen on demolishing it actually – lots of emotive stuff in my head about it being the thrusting icon of the working classes at a time when we had nothing – also it seems about right in terms of height.

I know its terribly inefficient etc, but I would like to see it refurbished. Should be a protected structure in my view.

Anyway, what is it with Siptu and capitalism – reminds me of the ols ditty “the working class can kiss me arse, I’ve got the foreman’s job at last”?

I grow old, I grow old,
Shall I wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled?

I’ll be with you on the first plane to Oz when it happens Missarchi

That would be the one at the end of the Yellow Brick Road, presumably…

besides im just curious what the proposal was has any one seen it? I still think its the wrong place…

I’m interviewing the VP of SIPTU on Mon, with luck, (on something entirely unrelated) so I will ask on Archiseek’s behalf 😉

Dublin city is reflected in the dirty windows of Liberty Hall – poorly.

If the building stays, they should at least think about re-glazing. Appearances are important – DC’s tallest building should at least look clean and well maintained. (Busaras is filthy too, but I digress..)

Those rickety, uneven windows have always been Liberty’s downfall, IMO. The architectural equivalent to crooked teeth. 🙂 And now half of them are broken too!

Contrast Liberty Hall with the Irish Life buildings. You might not like them, but at least the windows are straight. Some fresh glass would make a huge difference to LH, if she’s sticking around for the next while.

forgive my slowness, but from my reading of that article that status of liberty hall is rather ambiguous! Is the demolition simply postponed, is there now plans to refurb the present building or will it be left as the filthy eyesore that it is?

@donalbarry7 wrote:

forgive my slowness, but from my reading of that article that status of liberty hall is rather ambiguous! Is the demolition simply postponed, is there now plans to refurb the present building or will it be left as the filthy eyesore that it is?

From the mouth of SIPTU V.P Brendan Hayes…

They plan to stay on site and there will be a finalised design signed off on probably in the first quarter of 2009. The whole existing structure is to be knocked and the new tower will be marginally taller and will extend somewhat over the current theatre – although he said overshadowing other buildings is a constraint. The site of the theatre is to be reworked as an auditorium cum civic space.

thanks for that, sounds like a plan!

I’m confussed, are they not slightly worried that if the knock this building and apply for a new, taller one, that every tom dick and harry who hated the original one will have their objections at the ready.

Like what Labours Mary Freehill said about the Georges Quay Master Plan “To allow a 22-storey building opposite the finest Gandon building in Dublin is absolute madness”

Would the same sort of objection not apply to a new ‘slightly taller’ Liberty Hall?

@MurrayMints wrote:

if they knock this building and apply for a new, taller one, that every tom dick and harry who hated the original one will have their objections at the ready.

The building isn´t going anywhere until they have secured planning permission for the new one. People will have plenty of time to sumbit their objections before anything goes ahead.

Liberty Hall to be twice the size (fatter). In for planning in March http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0113/1231738220108.html

nice.

approved?

Not submitted afaik, very close to being dropped due to economic environment

Pity. I would’ve thought this one would be more likely that the speculative office towers down the quays.

If they are the only tennants and as a TU their income stream from membership is as good as guarenteed in times like this then I see no real reason not to proceed with it. An architectural competition would be great.

there’s not going to be a competition

I would like to see the new liberty hall design. it does need to be fatter if you want to call it like that. The building at present does seem to be a bit daft or too narrow or something. The footprint of the site is wasted. Something better has to be built here.

Why does it have to be so tall?

Do they really need all the space?

The floor space is tiny inside.The lift shaft and stairs take up a hugh amount of space.
Demolish it,build something more in keeping with the area such as a four /five story building with a decent design (Georgian or neo Classical facade)NO more crap Industrial estate office type buildings that have ruined Dublin over the last 40 years!Especially along the quays.
Plenty of empty/unfinished office buildings down the docklands they could move into!

@Satrastar wrote:

Why does it have to be so tall?

Do they really need all the space?

siptu have phallic issues

@mud hut! wrote:

The floor space is tiny inside.The lift shaft and stairs take up a hugh amount of space.
Demolish it,build something more in keeping with the area such as a four /five story building with a decent design (Georgian or neo Classical facade)NO more crap Industrial estate office type buildings that have ruined Dublin over the last 40 years!Especially along the quays.
Plenty of empty/unfinished office buildings down the docklands they could move into!

anybody got a floor plan to see how much space is used up by the core?

ah it should stay, its unique, a great example of its type, nevermind its inefficiencies, as with any listed building its worth keeping,

if this were commerical company that built it they’d just moved elsewhere and build a new place,but siptu will say they don’t have enough money and they want to keep their site.

@lostexpectation wrote:

anybody got a floor plan to see how much space is used up by the core?

One narrow office around each corner. Maybe ten feet of office space plus corridor. From experience.

I was watching foreign correspondent by chance and they had a show about the north and I noticed these tall buildings in the back round they look very similar to Liberty Hall with the wave roof does anyone know the buildings I’m talking about I think they where social housing or something around the 60’s 70’s?

liberty hall getting a interactive light exhibit for dublin theatre festival
http://www.daft.ie/playhouse/

should be interesting… be better if they have 1 minute each for top 10?
Is it projection or LED inside or out?

led inside it looks like

photos of test
http://www.flickr.com/photos/playhousedublin/

Looks great, amazing.

Looks brilliant, they should keep it in some form.

The multi-colourred pictures are brilliant. I agree it should be kept, at least its just a bit different.

Looks fantastic should definitely be kept on. The lighting on the spire during Irelands European presidency should also have been reinstated on a permanant basis

http://www.flickr.com/photos/moli516/434196461/

Is there some competition for these lights?
Is this testing?

@Highrise wrote:

Looks fantastic should definitely be kept on. The lighting on the spire during Irelands European presidency should also have been reinstated on a permanant basis

http://www.flickr.com/photos/moli516/434196461/

That was a sort of traveling installation, it moved around different cities. It did look amazing, I could see it from my gaff in Meath!

That lighting exhibition looks fantastic. It illustrates to me the value of retaining Liberty Hall as it is rather than demolishing it as others would like. Liberty Hall could also have themed lighting a la the Empire State Building.

I still think liberty should be rebuilt or at least given a major refurb. If you get a look at it close it looks like the building is ill, its very worn looking.

Those pictures of Liberty Hall are fantastic. Unfortunately the building itself is bizarrely designed and I can’t imagine many benefits accruing to SIPTU to keep it. I think a major facelift is in order but I’ve never had a problem with its height or design. The roof, described before as “flippant”, does contrast nicely with the Custom House dome – and the two buildings have formed an endearing Laurel and Hardy partnership over the last few decades.

knock it!!!!
and put the core next to the lane… in the middle of the building but on the outside edge
You cannot seriously think of keeping it… but having said that…
(I’m really hoping the fire consultant doesn’t go all crazy and make a core half the size of the building) The success of this whole thing will depend on how small they can get the stairs and how few elevators ect they have oh and a performance based disabled refuge…

Then there is the facade…

But I don’t think they even consider a lodge until the station is sorted…

the custom house is hardly the most efficient building or the most utilised are you going to knock that no, neither should you knock liberty hall

It’s called aging well…
I know if I had the choice of a building that was built to last hundreds of years or 50 and I had to demolish and rebuild all the time I know which one I would choose…
Why do you think the banks always own some of the longest lasting buildings after government? (maybe they have the money for good maintenance)

No doubt Liberty Hall is over utilised.

Speaking of liberty –
I reckon the most “over utilised” building in Dublin is located alongside The Royal Canal. Its always in the news for this very reason.

It may not be efficient in its current form, hence its imminent demolision.

However it was built to last in the 19th century and while I’ve never been in it, I have been told its interior is inescapable.

It has aged well and the banks are welcome to it.
In fact, I’d love to see some of our top bankers reside there for a spell.

Let them sing jingle jangle to each other there.

I agree we should put them in a glass box together and watch the fireworks from the bridge…
Give them both the same job to do and they can review each others work…

video of led animation on liberty hall
http://bit.ly/41Rm6

background of tech inside liberty hall
http://www.thebubble.ie/xhtml/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=199&Itemid=115

make your anims for display at
http://playhouse.daft.ie/create
playhousefan =password

these play house guys seem like scanner fans…;)

New Liberty Hall unveiled
http://two.archiseek.com/archives/7075

that looks like f all squared to me…

oh dear, all that waiting…. Not inspiring so far. Maybe more detail will follow..

If I was a betting man I would say it will be granted by DCC and shot down by An Bord Pleanala.

If the tara street redevelopment goes ahead, it could do wonders for the east city centre. Although playhouse has grown on me like some sort of parasitic fungus

I think it would be wonderful if the Liberty Hall was demolished along with its immediate neighbour and the Irish Life buildings across the road, and replaced with (comparatively low rise) some really original pieces of architecture.

It would also be great if SIPTU went out of existence.

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

New Liberty Hall unveiled
http://two.archiseek.com/archives/7075

the current building is far nicer – and should be a protected structure imho.

I agree that DCC will probably grant and ABP overturn (hopefully).

I had a feeling this was on the cards a week after a decision on the site across the river.
I thought the emphasis would be in the facades not form.
Sticking with a plain box would have been the best option.
I can’t tell Wether this is now 3 buildings or 1 it does have a Lloyd’s feel about it which is ironic?

And yet another fine example that most Irish architects do not have any imagination 😎

BTW, I bet you this wont get permission because of the extra 24m, not beside the customs 😉

I saw a previous proposal for the Liberty Hall site by Gilroy McMahon and it was alot more imaginative. It was made up of 2 curved undulating profiles.

That is bloody awful. I cant believe this is the best they could do. And I had to listen to the complete shite that some lad from siptu was using to describe the reasoning for going ahead with this redevelopment, he was describing it as a sign of confidence in the economy.

no comment.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1008/breaking62.htm

Jesus the new one is a hodgepodge of random geometries, heights, textures and materials, far inferior to the current one which should just be re clad imho.

I think the design is a little too square and boxy. We have come a long way in architectural technology, surely something more daring and origional could be built? I do however like the sound of the public elements such as the skydeck/cafe/exhibition space. The arrangement of the the ground floor areas also sounds interesting based on Frank MacDonalds description in the IT.

Personally I like the current Liberty Hall. I know, it doesn’t work as office space any more. But as a mid-1960s structre it ain’t that bad. Unfortunately it is thrown together with all the dross for the later 1960s and 1970s. I would demolish Hawkins House, Apollo House, O’Connell Bridge House and all of the 4/5 storey pastiche crap on Mount St before Liberty Hall!

Inevitably I think this will draw the ire of the anti hi-rise brigade, which oes exist despite what some posters say. They will see this as an opportuinity to erase a tall building from Dublin forever. I predict an avalanche of objections to ABP who are very ill disposed to anything which breaks parapit height or anything thats not squat and blocky! Either floors will be shaved off or it will be refused. When we could only get a handfull of multi storey buildings in the docklands where the skyline and Georgian Dublin are not considerations this new building within the “historic” core has little hope!

C

there is nothing more tedious than the obsession in this country of classifying any tall building with regard to its height in relation to Liberty Hall.

At least this proposal, if it goes ahead, will give any new proposed buildings another 24m to play with

It’s fairly bland, isn’t it, looks like an unfortunate compromise solution.. All that glazing with the presumable intention of making it invisible (seeing as the architect brings up “translucent” and “transparent”) and the extra forms stuck onto it just seem arbitrary.

what happened to shorter and fatter?

the only comment in the IT article is that the current liberty hall is not unique? what other liberty hall type buildings do we have?
and its not efficient, well customs house isn’t efficient are we going to knock that.

check out the playhouse lights turned on from inside the building

http://playhouse.daft.ie/blog/how-it-works/

good vid of the display in town http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ1G5j0SWgM

@weehamster wrote:

And yet another fine example that most Irish architects do not have any imagination 😎

BTW, I bet you this wont get permission because of the extra 24m, not beside the customs 😉

how mundane 🙁

@weehamster wrote:

And yet another fine example that most Irish architects do not have any imagination 😎

BTW, I bet you this wont get permission because of the extra 24m, not beside the customs 😉

True, but ah sure bless ’em….Bless ’em all. It’s the best they can do.

The likes of this should only be expected. No Gherkins here.

In comparison, the original building is streamline and light with it’s little funny hat that makes it kinda cute. The newer proposal is more blockier, bulkier, robust as if the original Liberty Hall grew up and put on a few stone in weight.

Still I suppose, it continues the role of the landmark here.

True, I bet the cranks will be crying about the height.

is there real world built example of this type of building it looks like the point village tower

Oh dear.

I see that the Gravity Bar from the Guinness Hop Store takes a ride down the Liffey to perch on the top of this new scenic wonder.

@dc3 wrote:

Oh dear.

I see that the Gravity Bar from the Guinness Hop Store takes a ride down the Liffey to perch on the top of this new scenic wonder.

Thats gravity for you!

The ballsbridge tower could have found a new home here…. it would have been better than this at least, no?
Is this really the best Ireland’s RIAI gold medal 2001-03 winners can do. Feck me pink.
Are they actually demolishing the current one, I only ask because in some of those renders, it kinda just looks like the old got a new layer wraped round the north and east sides and the gravity bar stuck on top for good measure…. might be an option?
For what its worth, I think it should be taller to compensate for the loss of slenderness.

why are there no head on views published is it even worse from that aspect?

http://www.design21c.com/conversation-market/imagine

something like this would be far more appropriate…more interesting design, focuses on sustainability…and the view of the building itself is far more indicative of what’s actually planned. I hate how new building proposals have been presented over the past few years. The approach in the link is far more insightful as to what is being proposed. Visual explanations are worth a thousand words as they say!

do you think people are going to chain themselves to the building?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/1010/1224256337683.html

ok so frank mcnally doesn’t like liberty hall, its not revisionist to say a lot of people liked to it

im not from dublin so i suppose i dont know the true landmark effect for everyone else but shouldnt the building replacing this ‘iconic building’ be at least double the height of the current one to symbolise what was and is now going to be the true building of dublin? at the proposed height its bound to be surpassed in dublin city by other buildings and everyone will think..it just isnt the same! build the next one high enough so that people wont complain about it. its the best location possible, i dont think 5 extra floors or whatever it is will justify such a building to be demolished, am i the only peoson who thinks this?
if you replace it go all out like!

A few flaws in your logic there D-A-V-E.
“at the proposed height its bound to be surpassed in dublin city by other buildings”:
ah, not likley to happen, I mean its not like no one has thought of it, build a tall building, seems logical enough, other cities can do it, not a reason in itself, but certinaly not a reason not to. But then the proposal always seem to mysteriously vanish off the radar…. into some black hole for tall buildings.
This one I really don’t get:
“at least double the height of the current one to symbolise what was and is now going to be the true building of dublin?”
So it should be taller to symbolise the fact that its the tallest building?? (I thought my slenderness ratio argument was pushing it)
“build the next one high enough so that people wont complain about it”
Have you read any of these threads on highrise (or indeed anything), everyone complains about everything! (myself included)
“if you replace it go all out like!”
Are you from Cork?

@GregF wrote:

The likes of this should only be expected. No Gherkins here.

Ugh, that’s a heart-sinkingly true realisation if ever there was one.

@Yixian wrote:

Ugh, that’s a heart-sinkingly true realisation if ever there was one.

Ah Yixian, I see your spirit has finally been crushed. Welcome to the fold 😀

@spoil_sport wrote:

Are you from Cork?

Limerick City

@JoePublic wrote:

Ah Yixian, I see your spirit has finally been crushed. Welcome to the fold 😀

Forget chaining ourselves to Liberty Hall, I’m chaining myself to their diggers once it’s been demolished to prevent such a crushingly mundane structure from being erected in it’s place.

@missarchi wrote:

I was watching foreign correspondent by chance and they had a show about the north and I noticed these tall buildings in the back round they look very similar to Liberty Hall with the wave roof does anyone know the buildings I’m talking about I think they where social housing or something around the 60’s 70’s?

They are the New Lodge Road flats just off the Westlink. They used to have paintings of volunteers on the white bands above the top floor windows.

See link below.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/heartlessni/3746436111/

crack the whip 🙂

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/property/2009/1105/1224258088827.html

Lovely old atmospheric pic from Polo’s website (http://www.photopol.com)

Haven’t gotten around to writing something about its proposed replacement, or maybe its that it saps any will to respond right out of me.

Jack of all trades, master of none.

video for Underworld vs Mark Knight and D.Ramirez, played “on” Liberty Hall http://bit.ly/90evPx

you want to knock this down?

@lostexpectation wrote:

video for Underworld vs Mark Knight and D.Ramirez, played “on” Liberty Hall http://bit.ly/90evPx

you want to knock this down?

A fantastic video. Really iconic.

Was it really done live (i.e. leds within Liberty Hall) or are the graphics just using Liberty Hall as a background (excuse my ignorance of these matters).

And NO – I certainly don’t want to knock it down – I would like it to be listed – but it does need a major facelift.

That was real and live – the lighting was temporarily put onto Liberty Hall as an art project. It was fantastic. I think it should have been a permanent feature. Then I would be all for retaining Liberty Hall.
Thanks for posting the link to the video – it was great.

is there no ‘front on’ look at the south face of this new building?

its hard to decipher what it looks like

esp since plans have been delayed
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/sky-pod-liberty-hall-plan-delayed-1958941.html

@PaulC wrote:

That was real and live – the lighting was temporarily put onto Liberty Hall as an art project. It was fantastic. I think it should have been a permanent feature. Then I would be all for retaining Liberty Hall.
Thanks for posting the link to the video – it was great.

I agree 100% – I actually miss it at night now!

@lostexpectation wrote:

is there no ‘front on’ look at the south face of this new building?

its hard to decipher what it looks like

esp since plans have been delayed
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/sky-pod-liberty-hall-plan-delayed-1958941.html

that article said work was to start in 2011, when was the origional schedule?

I thought this set the benchmark/precedent? maybe it was wrong….
But this precedent has been broken again?

@spoil_sport wrote:

For what its worth, I think it should be taller to compensate for the loss of slenderness.

Do you not think it might be slenderer – to compensate for the loss of tallness?

:p

@Peter Fitz wrote:

Haven’t gotten around to writing something about its proposed replacement, or maybe its that it saps any will to respond right out of me.

My thoughts for the past two months exactly. It’s just not worth the effort.

And that’s a real shame.

Liberty hall looked fantastic at night during the theatre festival. The video for Underworld vs Mark Knight and D.Ramirez, is really good. City seems so alive with energy, vibrancy and dynamism thanks to a small solitary tower pulsating in its core (Of course the kickin dance tunes help so much as well).

I wish we could have this installation or something similar permanent in the city. It could become as famous as the sparkle effect on the Eiffel tower in Paris. Meanwhile the poolbeg chimneys should copy the sparkle effect.

And im afraid i have to agree with everyone in terms of being disapointed with the new liberty hall proposal. It adds nothing. Infact i think it would result in a considerable loss. Far worse than what we currently have. I just hope it wont proceed as proposed.

– Please be careful with this one D.C.C.planning dept!

Can’t they just snag the design from Dunne’s One Berkley Court xD

^ That, is a modern high rise.

This nonsense looks like a high rise industrial park.

2207/10

no drawings on there…

I wonder if the “curtail-age of a protected structure” (bridge) will come out…
I doubt it and we will be seeing double again :p

@missarchi wrote:

2207/10
no drawings on there…

Model in lobby of the Corpo though.

I don’t know, I just don’t see any advantage in this, . . . . . apart from helping SIPTU out.
No, I think I was right the first time, I just don’t see any advantage in this.

It’s taken us forty five years to even start to love the existing Liberty Hall, why would we want to start at square one again?

Even if it could be argued that this is the right place for a high-rise development [and I’ve never heard anyone say it is], there’s nothing particularly striking or elegant about the new version, compared with either the existing Liberty Hall or even the stalled Keogh tower at Heuston.

I’m not getting misty-eyed about Liberty Hall, I’d knock it down tomorrow if I could be sure we’d get a five/six storey replacement on the site, but assuming this isn’t on offer [without the imaginative land swap that this city is incapable of brokering] then we’re better off with the existing Liberty Hall, imo.

Its just all over the place, no matter what way I look at it … I just find my eyes straining to focus on its obscure profile – like what the hell is it trying to be? apart from an incoherent mess.

another barrel in a cube! It’s the ectomorph to the endomorph conference centre… with posture problems.

It’s a very difficult site…

The only reasonable precedent I can think of is the herald building.
The box like facade that breaks it into 4 parts slims the building.
It has old on the bottom new on top…
1 part might work very well here if the lift core/stairs could be pushed out…

Either way I always thought the profile should be square or a trapezoid…

they should CPO the site next door…

what is the plot ratio?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hrdrck/3437194550/sizes/o/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36009735@N08/3606170210/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/53898331@N00/2502961423/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26407687@N05/3413530579/sizes/o/

Any updates on this? Last I heard in the Tribune last month was:
Dublin City Council has told Siptu it will have to submit further justification for the demolition of Liberty Hall, even though it is not a protected structure.

The council has said the union will have to submit a more detailed analysis of the contribution the building has made, as well as a “more detailed exploration, including financial and economic appraisal of proposed alternative uses of the existing Liberty Hall tower, to include detailed appraisal of possible refurbishment”.

I was leafing through an obscure book I picked up in the library on the work of Dutch firm Architektengemeenschap van den Broek en Bakema when a building designed in 1956 for Het Parool newspaper made me do a double take:

Spot the difference?

It does beg the question is Irish architecture Irish?
Have leading practitioners avoided an Irish vernacular and embraced a globalized medium.
Is Europe good for Irish architecture?

@colmmac wrote:

Spot the difference?

Very interesting images; when Frank talks about Liberty Hall in DoD he makes the point on the reflective bomb film on the windows added in the 1970’s which destroyed much of the attraction of the see-through nature of the building. To use a clothing anology it changed a see through top for a shell suit; if the form of the tower wasn’t so elegent it would be a complete horror story which thankfully it isn’t; but reversing an intervention made on security grounds when the security situation is now normalised could add to both the attractiveness and the marketability of the space.

What these images do display is that it is clear that the union changed the original design quite a bit no doubt in an effort to cut budget. I would be fully supportive of DCC’s stance on quantifying the cost benefit of a refurbishment option as any project that may go ahead may suffer from the same fate as the original proposal and not be what it now purports to be. This site is far too high profile to take that risk and given that there are stalled projects such as the proposed Anglo offices within walking distance you have to ask the question could the elevated construction costs of a tall building be matched by a premium rent?

Something tells me Siptu would be better off sticking to their core business of national wage agreements and by taking a pragmatic view on their core mandate they could help create the conditions that could lead to a significant uptick in employment levels and by implication the demand for grade A office space; such a recovery would enable their membership to buy unit trust investments in Commercial Property in larger numbers and capitalise on what is now quite a discounted asset vis a vis medium term averages.

Wait till the boys on the Billy’s thread see this!:D

dutch on dutch von dutch…

I really don’t mind if they knock liberty hall but it has to better for it to be worth it!
poly vinyl plastic money can be printed… grade a people cannot be printed or bought.
Grade a office space is an illusion… like flipping burgers or team building…
complex systems cannot be audited…

Georgian irish rose fusion?
bricks, rubber mould precast, metal and glass? with timber floors to the office?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jagerjanssen/2774975397/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gherm/4018872246/

I want siptu to stay on the site…
Some sketchy ideas… in good faith
If you assume around 1000 m sq per floor…
The current proposal tower is around 69% percent efficient per floor.
Floor plate around 594 m sq.
184 m sq. of stairs lifts ect per floor
what is the size of the existing tower floor plate and how efficient is it?

option 1 no tower:

5000 metres of floor plate ground to 4th ( no set back)
1000 metres 5th/6th 50% of site
3000 metres in basement
1000 metre roof deck (500 x 2) if you want

only have a double height space for 10-20% of the site not 50%
relocate the main stair core to the west north corner of the site the secondary one to the north east corner

= 9500 m sq. with much less circulation space… 66% of what is proposed and it does not go above 6 stories + roof deck

I really want to see quality in this project…
The onerous fire requirements are going to pretty much make any towers form questionable in Ireland on a tight site like this unless they refurbish but even then its unlikely they can escape them.

it’s cringe worthy…

why don’t they want large floor plates around 800-900 m sq? they could get 4 of them almost with make less of a core and plant…
All these levels in a small floor plate tower make circulation wasteful and time consuming…
DCC could also give them some of the roads to the east

Upload of file failed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0807/1224276363274.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0809/1224276416696.html

From http://www.irishtimes.com website.

Trade union Siptu has withdrawn its planning application for the redevelopment of the iconic Liberty Hall building in Dublin due to what it described as “design issues”.

The union said today, however, it would reapply for planning permission within three months.

Siptu general secretary Joe O’Flynn said in a statement: “We have decided to withdraw the current planning application due to detailed design issues.

“While the union, its professional advisors and Dublin City Council officials have worked hard to resolve these outstanding issues, time simply ran out on us.”

He said that after “detailed consideration” it had withdrawn the application to allow it more time to resolve the matters.

Mr O’Flynn said that the union remained fully committed to proceeding with “this major project for the union and the city of Dublin as the current building is no longer fit for purpose”.

He said that out of respect for the planning process, the union would not make any further comment at this time.

Siptu lodged its planning application with Dublin City Council last February, seeking to replace Liberty Hall with a significantly taller building, topped by a “sky pod” that would give visitors panoramic views over the city and Dublin Bay.

The existing building dates from 1965.

Under the plan, the 17-storey, 60m (197ft) tall block on Eden Quay/Beresford Place would be replaced by a 20-storey tower rising to 84m (277ft).

Siptu unveiled the details of its proposed development at its centenary annual conference in October 2009, pledging that the new Liberty Hall would have a “wow factor” second to none in the capital – surpassing the Guinness Storehouse.

Designed by Gilroy McMahon Architects, who were also responsible for Croke Park, the facilities were also to include a 300-seat theatre at lower ground level, a heritage centre illustrating Siptu’s history and 15 floors of office space.

Architect Des McMahon said last February it was likely to attract 250,000 visitors annually, generating significant revenue for Siptu.

they obviously got the nod that a refusal was coming

TIM O’BRIEN: Siptu withdraws plan for Liberty Hall, The Irish Times – Saturday, February 19, 2011
Liberty Hall, designed by architect Des Rea O’Kelly, who died on Thursday and was buried today, Monday 21, was formerly the tallest office building in Ireland, rising to 59.4 metres (195 feet).

Yes, there has been surprisingly little notice of Des’s untimely passing.

The death has occurred of Desmond Rea O’Kelly of Howth, Dublin

Peacefully in the loving care of the staff of The Brymore Nursing Home. Beloved husband of the late Brenda and brother of the late Maurice and his late sister Pat. Sadly missed by his relatives and his many friends.

Date of death: Thursday, February 17, 2011

Rest In Peace

Yeah surprised at that myself Graham.

This untimely event could not be more surreal…

I wonder why the union pulled the application – are the council about to list it? were they asked to shorten it? or have they decided with the downturn to build the whole site to a uniform level ?

I suspect retention is on the cards. This application must be viewed in the broader context of Ireland’s abysmal recent record on the recognition and protection of 20th century architecture, as recently highlighted to and acknowledged by the Department of Environment by the newly formed Irish branch of DOCOMOMO. The Further Information request also centered on establishing and expanding on the building’s architectural heritage value. For the most high profile example to be lost at this stage in the game would be an embarrassment, frankly.

Yeah I suspect as much myself.

The Irish Times FINALLY printed an obituary of O’Kelly this weekend – however, it doesn’t seem to be on their website at this point in time tonight – even though it shows up in Google News, it’s presenting a 404

Approved with conditions by Dublin City Council.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0225/1224312378193.html

So what is different about the application this time round?

can anyone link to details of the problems with the building?

http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00361330.pdf this link might die

What are the floor to floors?
It would be nice to combine the two stair cores if possible.
but still have two separate stair cores…
16 meh….
You could gain 2-10 msq per a floor…

can’t edit your posts on here can you?

i thought they make a effort for atleast public sentiment to argue why the building doesn’t work as an office, then a few a paragraphs and badly photocopied photos.

It would be good to see this Liberty Hall redevelopment go ahead without slipping on a banana skin at An Bord Pleanála. While I’m sympathetic to the argument that the existing building could be refurbished (with new window glazing, updated decor, revamped street frontage etc.) that fails to address the heart of the problem which is, actually, the heart of the building. The existing Liberty Hall has a problem with the lift-shafts in the centre of the building interfering with the office space surrounding it. Unlike the flowing interiors of its counterpart across the Liffey – Montevetro – Liberty Hall has poky offices constrained by the central shaft. Redeveloping it would solve this problem and provide more effective and attractive office space. SIPTU have also mentioned the idea of centralising their offices in Dublin into Liberty Hall. That sounds like a good idea as it will save on building maintenance, rental and utility costs. Liberty Hall as it stands is too small currently to make that accommodation. Once it’s redeveloped with 50% more office-space it will.

Overall, a good decision by DCC and now hopefully the people around the corner in An Bord Pleanála wave this through if it’s appealed and Dublin can get a bigger and better Liberty Hall.

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

Yeah I suspect as much myself.

The Irish Times FINALLY printed an obituary of O’Kelly this weekend – however, it doesn’t seem to be on their website at this point in time tonight – even though it shows up in Google News, it’s presenting a 404

Its pasted on the docomomo blog:
http://docomomo.ie/2011/02/desmond-rea-okelly-obituary-irish-times/

A most unfortunate decision and one that should rightly tumble at the feet of An Bord Pleanála. Notwithstanding Liberty Hall’s architectural heritage value, this area of the city centre is not designated for high rise, and it is difficult to see how the Board can grant an application that facilitates the ad hoc redevelopment of tall buildings, especially somewhere as sensitive as the quays, never mind that the very foundations of Dublin high rise policy are based on Local Area Plans being drafted.

The problem in all of this, however, is a discreet provision that was deftly slipped into the Development Plan process in order to facilitate Siptu – indeed, the only one-off deviation from high rise policy in the document. The provision cynically attaches significance to the Liberty Hall site, not the building. How this exceptionally subjective angle on such a critically important building in the city made its way into the Plan without apparent notice by anybody is disquieting.

17.6.2
“In recognition of the national, social and cultural importance of the Liberty Hall site, the height limitations set out in the development plan may be set aside or relaxed in considering a proposal for the redevelopment of the site which will provide for the continuation of its national, historic, social and cultural status. Any such proposal will be considered against the relevant standards set out at Section 17.6.3”.

Alas, this is a problematic statement in any planning argument for retaining the building. In effect, the Board can only rely on the building’s architectural heritage value to overturn this decision.

The amenity value of the uppermost floors in the proposed new building are an undeniable asset, but one that can be accommodated in considerable style in the existing building. I think the proposed design is distinctly mediocre. Marian Finucane’s typically bland assertions on design quality this morning, comparing it to the same architects’ Croke Park, are surely a reason not to even consider it. It is not deserving of pride of place as Dublin’s signature tall building, never mind the tragic loss of a rare 1960s icon.

The planner’s report is not yet available online. It will make for interesting reading.

SIPTU, an organisation with plenty of money (don’t ye know) abandoned the building long ago. There is no excuse for it, basic maintenance. I laugh as they trumpet the virtue of their fancy new sky deck, with un-parallelled views of the city. They are currently responsible for Dublin’s original sky pavillion, and they saw fit to shut it down long ago.

Let’s remember, these people are not short of money, and where that money comes from.

So it became a trapezoid after all…
The issue with this building is it does not have old and new…
The core is dominating…
The facade is faceless but does have potential…

Your with us jake…

I remember when churches worshiped the skyline…

@GrahamH wrote:

. . . this area of the city is not designated for high-rise development . . . however . . . a discreet provision was deftly slipped into the Development Plan process in order to facilitate Siptu – indeed, the only one-off deviation from high rise policy in the document. The provision cynically attaches significance to the Liberty Hall site, not the building. How this exceptionally subjective angle on such a critically important building in the city made its way into the Plan without apparent notice by anybody is disquieting.

Although, on another level, it is almost refreshing to find out that there are people in Dublin City Council smart enough to be that devious.

Does Dublin have an emotional attachment to Liberty Hall?

Quote from that DOCOMOMO commentary:

‘Liberty Hall though was his [Desmond Rea O’Kelly’s] magnum opus, and Dubliners loved it . . . .’

Not entirely sure that that is true.

Did Liberty Hall not feature regularly in those ‘worst building in Dublin’ polls that the Evening Herald used to run on quiet news days before the arrival of the Civic Offices made the contest redundant?

Until there was talk of knocking it down, I don’t recall much talk of Liberty Hall being a great building, which seems to be the position DOCOMOMO are coming round to suggesting with their various explanations for why it never received the RIAI top award.

In fairness to the Irish branch of DOCOMOMO, they do have a tough brief, how do you celebrate modern architecture in a country which the modern movement largely passed over, without unconsciously gazing at its few mediocre monuments through the improving lens of nostalgia?

I’d keep Liberty Hall, simply because what’s proposed to replace it is infinitely worse and the planning rational for replacing it with an even bigger eyesore is deeply flawed, but my preferred option would still be what the Pivot Dublin guys came up with:

@GrahamH wrote:

A most unfortunate decision and one that should rightly tumble at the feet of An Bord Pleanála. Notwithstanding Liberty Hall’s architectural heritage value, this area of the city centre is not designated for high rise, and it is difficult to see how the Board can grant an application that facilitates the ad hoc redevelopment of tall buildings, especially somewhere as sensitive as the quays, never mind that the very foundations of Dublin high rise policy are based on Local Area Plans being drafted.

But GrahamH, while the building does have merit as an example of a school of Irish architecture, it does have a very dilapidated and shabby quality to it both at streetlevel and further up. In order for it to truly showcase the architecture of the time it was built would require a comprehensive facelift and a return to non-reflective windowpanes. SIPTU would be unwilling to go ahead with such an investment when, as they have pointed out, the building is no longer fit for purpose. It has huge electricity and heating costs which SIPTU are looking to halve with a new, modern-era office building. Liberty Hall, in its current incarnation probably suffers sick building syndrome Moreover, the building is quite poky with the central shaft reducing the effective office space of Liberty Hall. A new building would solve, or at least greatly mitigate, a lot of these problems.

As well as that, the area may not be zoned for high-rise but the existing building establishes a precedent for a tall building and the area does have a number of medium/high rise buildings such as the Ulster Bank HQ and O’Connell Bridge House so it would fit in with those buildings. Indeed, had the original plans for a 100m Ulster Bank HQ gone through it would not be the tallest building in this area and would simply be fitting into an already elevated tableau. Furthermore, even if this tall building is in some way a breach of existing guidelines then its construction will hardly usher in a wave of proposals which will turn Eden Quay into a mini-Manhattan. NIMBYS, an Taisce, a bust building sector and this city’s(and country’s) phobia about tall buildings will see to that. It is in large part thanks to these groups that Liberty Hall is indeed our signature tall building. It is a crying shame that since it was built in 1975 only two buildings – Montevetro and Millennium Tower have overtaken it in height. Had we developed the docklands like any other city Liberty Hall would probably have been out of the top 10 tallest buildings in Dublin and we wouldn’t be as interested in its redevelopment. As it stands, this Liberty Hall proposal is just about the only prospect for proper high rise in this city considering the limbo the Point Watchtower, U2 Tower, Heuston Gate and Aqua Vetro are in. Therefore we shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it.

This building could be in Saudi Arabia or New York.

@Cathal Dunne wrote:

@GrahamH wrote:

A most unfortunate decision and one that should rightly tumble at the feet of An Bord Pleanála. Notwithstanding Liberty Hall’s architectural heritage value, this area of the city centre is not designated for high rise, and it is difficult to see how the Board can grant an application that facilitates the ad hoc redevelopment of tall buildings, especially somewhere as sensitive as the quays, never mind that the very foundations of Dublin high rise policy are based on Local Area Plans being drafted.

But GrahamH, while the building does have merit as an example of a school of Irish architecture, it does have a very dilapidated and shabby quality to it both at streetlevel and further up. In order for it to truly showcase the architecture of the time it was built would require a comprehensive facelift and a return to non-reflective windowpanes. SIPTU would be unwilling to go ahead with such an investment when, as they have pointed out, the building is no longer fit for purpose. It has huge electricity and heating costs which SIPTU are looking to halve with a new, modern-era office building. Liberty Hall, in its current incarnation probably suffers sick building syndrome Moreover, the building is quite poky with the central shaft reducing the effective office space of Liberty Hall. A new building would solve, or at least greatly mitigate, a lot of these problems.

As well as that, the area may not be zoned for high-rise but the existing building establishes a precedent for a tall building and the area does have a number of medium/high rise buildings such as the Ulster Bank HQ and O’Connell Bridge House so it would fit in with those buildings. Indeed, had the original plans for a 100m Ulster Bank HQ gone through it would not be the tallest building in this area and would simply be fitting into an already elevated tableau. Furthermore, even if this tall building is in some way a breach of existing guidelines then its construction will hardly usher in a wave of proposals which will turn Eden Quay into a mini-Manhattan. NIMBYS, an Taisce, a bust building sector and this city’s(and country’s) phobia about tall buildings will see to that. It is in large part thanks to these groups that Liberty Hall is indeed our signature tall building. It is a crying shame that since it was built in 1975 only two buildings – Montevetro and Millennium Tower have overtaken it in height. Had we developed the docklands like any other city Liberty Hall would probably have been out of the top 10 tallest buildings in Dublin and we wouldn’t be as interested in its redevelopment. As it stands, this Liberty Hall proposal is just about the only prospect for proper high rise in this city considering the limbo the Point Watchtower, U2 Tower, Heuston Gate and Aqua Vetro are in. Therefore we shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss it.

Well, Heuston Gate could soon be off the agenda too. An Taisce through James Nix are pushing for a new 8 storey Childrens Hospital to be built on the Heuston Gate site. This is nothing but a cynical attempt to develop a site for which there is still planning permission for just about the only Highrise that ABP didn’t refuse. An Taisce know full well that if Heuston Gate were to be built it would set a new precedent as regards height in Dublin.

@GrahamH wrote:

A most unfortunate decision and one that should rightly tumble at the feet of An Bord Pleanála. Notwithstanding Liberty Hall’s architectural heritage value, this area of the city centre is not designated for high rise, and it is difficult to see how the Board can grant an application that facilitates the ad hoc redevelopment of tall buildings, especially somewhere as sensitive as the quays, never mind that the very foundations of Dublin high rise policy are based on Local Area Plans being drafted.

The problem in all of this, however, is a discreet provision that was deftly slipped into the Development Plan process in order to facilitate Siptu – indeed, the only one-off deviation from high rise policy in the document. The provision cynically attaches significance to the Liberty Hall site, not the building. How this exceptionally subjective angle on such a critically important building in the city made its way into the Plan without apparent notice by anybody is disquieting.

17.6.2
“In recognition of the national, social and cultural importance of the Liberty Hall site, the height limitations set out in the development plan may be set aside or relaxed in considering a proposal for the redevelopment of the site which will provide for the continuation of its national, historic, social and cultural status. Any such proposal will be considered against the relevant standards set out at Section 17.6.3”.

Alas, this is a problematic statement in any planning argument for retaining the building. In effect, the Board can only rely on the building’s architectural heritage value to overturn this decision.

The amenity value of the uppermost floors in the proposed new building are an undeniable asset, but one that can be accommodated in considerable style in the existing building. I think the proposed design is distinctly mediocre. Marian Finucane’s typically bland assertions on design quality this morning, comparing it to the same architects’ Croke Park, are surely a reason not to even consider it. It is not deserving of pride of place as Dublin’s signature tall building, never mind the tragic loss of a rare 1960s icon.

The planner’s report is not yet available online. It will make for interesting reading.

Actually, I am inclined to agree with you. I feel Liberty Hall (in its original incarnation before the 1972 bomb) was one of our finest pieces of post-war architecture. I feel it gets a bad rap based on the fact that it is the tallest and most identifiable building from a period of architectural dross. In short, its frequently blamed for the sins of Hawkins House, O’Connell Bridge House, College House, Telephone House, Apollo House etc. Furthermore, it is often cited as an example of what destroyed Georgian Dublin, when in fact that was overwhelmingly the myriad of 3/5 floor georgian pastiche low-rise crap!

However, the rub is that those now opposing reconstruction of Liberty Hall due to the historic nature and architecturally sensitive location of its site were by and large the same people who used hell fire and brimstone to prevent a highrise district in the docklands! Something which would have soaked up demand and negated most of the need to build in the more historic parts of the City. They can’t have it both ways but thats what they want!

Consequently, having seen building after building fanatically rejected purely on the grounds of height rather then architectural merit, using every disengenuous NIMBY arguement in the book , many reasonable (probably myself included) have become ever more exaperated and no just want a highrise building if only to explode this stupid myth that highrises are universally bad!

Exactly, Morlan. Hawkins House is horrendous, especially considering the beautiful Theatre Royal was thrown aside to make way for that appalling monstrosity.

Apollo House should also go in a wholesale redevelopment of the area between the Loopline Bridge, Pearse and D’Olier Streets. It is a uniquely dingy, particularly now that the Grand Canal Dock area has been revamped, the Custom House given a facelift, the Docklands development finished and O’Connell St. improved.

Hawkins and Apollo House and that building with the permanent Quinn Agnew ad for office space should be knocked. Hawkins House should have a light, glass-paned replacement of at least 20 storeys. Apollo House should be replaced by a bright-coloured brick building, again of at least 20 storeys like these ones in New York. The other buildings should be of similar style but shorter stature. Development should also be mixed use with Apollo House, in particular, divided equally between commercial, residential and retail uses. The area should also be permeated with street cafés, boutiques, restaurants, pubs, benches, cyclelanes and the like to make it an inviting place both by day and night.

Developing this area to this density, along with other elements like Liberty Hall Nua, Luas BXD, Metro North (eventually), taller buildings east of Ulster Bank HQ, the Watchtower and a revived Aqua Vetro would give Dublin a great boost and produce a skyline this city of 1.5 million and a capital city of 4.6 million deserves.

just looked again at the paddy cahill documentary and the docomomo submission the inside and working use of the building is barely shown or mentioned, more attention should be paid to the conditions of the people that have to work their, I’ve had go into stuffy cramped work space and it drives you mad, but surely there are plenty of old buildings around that could be replaced with more efficient ones, is that a reason to knock it down, was this building so badly built that its beyond repair?

shows how much there is to talk about. This has no chance of being built – you might as well try to stuff a cloud in a suitcase. Might as well just leave the grant and let it lapse rather than bother to appeal it

According to Frank McDonald in today’s paper, quote: ‘The passion is all on one side – those who want Liberty Hall to be retained as an ‘icon’ of the emergence of modern Ireland’

Leaving aside the card carrying members of DOCOMOMO, whose passion is a little bit too easily aroused in my opinion, I suspect that the bulk of the people who would be against the demolition of Liberty Hall, and its replacement by a significantly taller and bulkier version, would be people keen on seeing that a bigger mistake isn’t made now than was made in the 1960s.

Another issue I have with the current proposal is the scandalously misleading photomontage [reproduced in the McDonald article] which chooses a vantage point from where the entire streetscape of Eden Quay is obscured by foliage, conveniently concealing the jarring contrast in scale. I know they’re going to say; hey we sent out a guy to take a picture and this is what he came back with, but deep down they must know that this is a subtle misrepresentation.

What ever happens I don’t think anyone will be happy with the result…

Here is the current design:

Does anyone have any more renders, particularly renders from directly across the river? It’s hard to tell how bulky this proposal is.

Looks like Des Rea O’Kelly can rest in peace!

http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/20848347/?view=Standard

Another refusal from ABP.

So Siptu’s options
– start again, new architects, new design approach, apply for permission
– look for permission to demolish existing, redevelop later – this would force the city’s hand to either list the building or not, then SIPTU would know where they stand. Would seperate the issue of new building height and size from the emotive issue of saving Liberty Hall
– sell up and move to a new building on a new location, or become tenants somewhere else

…do the usual Irish thing…take a couple storeys off it and re-apply… :yawn:

Surprised but this has been my experience with the system…
Anything higher than 8 stories or 4 on the Liffey is in great danger of paralysis.

I think Paul hit the nail on the head…
Demolition seems inevitable…

No planning authority, not even Dublin City Council, is going to grant permission for demolition on key site like this without first approving the redevelopment. SIPTU’s window of opportunity has passed, I think it’s time to recognise that we’re stuck with the Liberty Hall we have.

Let’s hope DOCOMOMO are right and this is a masterpiece that just takes a while to grow on you.

DOCOMOMO?

Is Liberty hall a fine piece of architecture? Yes
Will it stand the test of time? I don’t think so in it’s current form.
Liberty hall should be demolished and replaced with something that matches the adjoining parapet or something Irish… Some parts could be recycled somewhere else…

Ireland doesn’t even promote Irish Architecture it’s lost a battle of quasi global modernism that has no sense of place vs 18/19th century “heritage”… Kells…

The wording of the refusal effectively sterilises this site. Demolition will never be permitted. Forget it. Move on and get used to having to look at it.

Demolition by old age or low maintenance…
It’s sad enough that the central bank is moving to the carcass of Docklands it created…

I just came across this on http://www.dublincity.ie – the Council’s reaction to the decision of the Board

http://www.dublincity.ie/Press/PressReleases/PRNovember2012/Pages/DublinCityCouncilresponsetoAnB%C3%B3rdPlean%C3%A1laDecisiononLibertyHall.aspx

Dublin City Council deliberated on the proposals by SIPTU to redevelop Liberty Hall for a considerable period of time. The first application was withdrawn. Following the withdrawal of that application, Dublin City Council had a series of pre-application consultations with SIPTU and their Architects to ensure that a building of the highest architectural and design quality was proposed for this primary location. The high quality of the design was acknowledged by An Bórd Pleanála in their decision today.

The City Council as authors of the Development Plan is satisfied that their planning approval was in accordance with Development Plan Policy and therefore is disappointed with the nature and extent of the decision of An Bórd Pleanála. Indeed the re-development of the Liberty Hall site was specifically promoted by a decision of the elected members during their consideration of the Development Plan by the insertion of the following wording:

In recognition of the national, social and cultural importance of the Liberty Hall site, the height limitations set out in the Development plan may be set aside or relaxed in considering a proposal for the redevelopment of the site which will provide for the continuation of its national historic, social and cultural status. Any such proposal will considered against the relevant standards set out at Section 17.6.3 “Assessment Criteria High Buildings”.

The relevant assessment is fully set out in the Planners Report to the City Council decision.

The City Council will make no further comment until it has had the opportunity to fully consider the decision of An Bórd Pleanála including the report of the Inspector.

An Taisce called for an independent regulator to be appointed to investigate the planning function of Dublin City Council.
“It is a waste of time and scarce resources for major applications to be processed through the planning system, if they are then overturned because they are found to be in breach of local and national policy.”

I think the real issue that needs to be investigated here is why two different sets of expert Public Sector Planners have come to entirely opposite conclusions and, in the process, have succeeded in wasting so much of everybody’s time.

In 1984 the reverse happened on the Irish Life George’s Quay site. Dublin City Council would only give planning permission for a development with a limit of 12 stories. This was appealed to An Bord Pleanala who gave a decision to build 34 stories!!!
So called expert Planners!!

Applicants should not be asked to jump through all these hoops like circus dogs.

Anyone for residential in the obsolete stump that is Liberty Hall? :crazy:

the height limitations set out in the Development plan may be set aside or relaxed in considering a proposal for the redevelopment of the site which will provide for the continuation of its national historic, social and cultural status.

hear people talking about how meaningful the site is to siptu what a load of crap, they want to build as high as they can for financial purposes

I was on Eden Quay yesterday and took the opportunity of standing and actually looking at this building. It’s an absolute kip of a thing. It’s only a matter of time before stuff starts falling off onto the quay. How anyone could describe it as being of national historic and social significance is completely beyond me

@wearnicehats wrote:

I was on Eden Quay yesterday and took the opportunity of standing and actually looking at this building. It’s an absolute kip of a thing. It’s only a matter of time before stuff starts falling off onto the quay. How anyone could describe it as being of national historic and social significance is completely beyond me

im sure siptu are delighted with that report, job well done

I think the city should tell siptu that they can demolish it and build a perfect replica of the Northumberland Hotel version of Liberty Hall with no planning process / appeals, and see what they think….

I second that

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

I think the city should tell siptu that they can demolish it and build a perfect replica of the Northumberland Hotel version of Liberty Hall with no planning process / appeals, and see what they think….

Couldn’t agree more Paul, and I would go further and add the same proviso for Hawkins House and the ESB redevelopment on Fitzwilliam Street. However, as a quid-pro-quo, I would allow tall buildings to be constructed in the Docklands….but of course that would never happen because An Taisce want to have their cake and eat it.

I hate to labour the point but I am somebody who has been moved from being fairly anti-development into a supporter almost purely due to the sheer bloody minded theocratic objections of An Taisce. Furthermore, ABP are not much better, they seem to have taken the role upon themselves of not only ensuring that development plans are adhered to but also deciding which parts of the development plants they want to disgard!

C

@millennium wrote:

An Taisce called for an independent regulator to be appointed to investigate the planning function of Dublin City Council.
“It is a waste of time and scarce resources for major applications to be processed through the planning system, if they are then overturned because they are found to be in breach of local and national policy.”

I think the real issue that needs to be investigated here is why two different sets of expert Public Sector Planners have come to entirely opposite conclusions and, in the process, have succeeded in wasting so much of everybody’s time.

In 1984 the reverse happened on the Irish Life George’s Quay site. Dublin City Council would only give planning permission for a development with a limit of 12 stories. This was appealed to An Bord Pleanala who gave a decision to build 34 stories!!!
So called expert Planners!!

Applicants should not be asked to jump through all these hoops like circus dogs.

Anyone for residential in the obsolete stump that is Liberty Hall? :crazy:

I remember hearing about that aspect of the Georges Quay saga. Aparently, the it was the designation of the plot ratio for that particular site which opened the door to such a tall structure. I think Irish Life even went as far as studying a few Skyscrapers in the US but eventually decided that at the time (1984) it wouldn’t be economically viable. I had no idea though that ABP allowed a 34 storey building……odd when you consider that in the late 1990s they refused a stylish 80 metre 19 storey building….and forced the resurrection of an older plan….thankfully for them the 34 storey permission must have run out!!!!

BTW, do you have any renders of the 1984 proposal??

C