Henrietta Street

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    • #704658
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Henrietta Street was the first major Georgian street to be built in Dublin. I have heard the following:

      In an effort to enhance the obviously lacking historical credentials of the street, Dublin Corporation decided to cobble it, although historically it apparently was never cobbled.

      The street, is actually built over the cellars of the Georgian houses on either side. Cobbles, with a concrete base, were laid by the corporation. Soon after, the cellars started to collapse under this new load. As a result, for the last five or so years, the street has had concrete-filled barrels left on it, apparently to prevent cars parking on the vulnerable areas.

      Has anybody else heard this or is it just an urban myth? If true it would be interesting to know what the situation is now. The street is certainly a bit of an eye-sore as it is.

    • #712657
      Jas
      Participant

      I don’t think its a myth…. all i know is the corporation had just did some work and the street started collapsing…..

    • #712658
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Is anything being done about Henrietta Street? Does anyone know if the corpo has a specific policy/ pln for it? Why why why did Temple Bar happen without anything happening to Henrietta Street?

    • #712659
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Is anything being done about Henrietta Street? Does anyone know if the corpo has a specific policy/ plan for it? Why why why did Temple Bar happen without anything happening to Henrietta Street?

    • #712660
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      For some very interesting developements being
      undertaked by the DIT in that part of the city see the IT article-
      ‘If this happens, Dr Tallon foresees Henrietta Street – the oldest and arguably the most important Georgian street in Dublin – becoming “a most important area for learned institutes”; indeed, he can even see the RIAI moving there from its southside base in Merrion Square as one of the potential spin-offs from developing Grangegorman.

      http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/property/1999/0408/prop12.htm

    • #712661
      Donncha
      Participant

      a lot of the work has so far been done by individuals living on hte street. as part of a greater project it will probably take the completion of HARP before the street is focused on again. overall very little assistance has been given by the state, probably as it would highlight the extremly run down area on this historic street’s doorstep.

    • #712662
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I had an idea. Since Dublin lacks an Aras an Taoisigh why not turn Henrietta Street into a Dublin version of Downing Street. The area around it could really use a boost. Besides, how many countries don’t have a home for their own prime minister. Maybe Farmleigh in the park would be better. But Henrietta street looks more democratic (i.e. non-aristocratic).

    • #712663
      trace
      Participant

      From The Irish Times, 26th May 1994 (page 4):

      “RESIDENTS OF GEORGIAN STREET PROTEST AT CONTINUING WORK
      By Frank McDonald, Environmental Correspondent

      “Residents of Dublin’s oldest Georgian street are strongly protesting against the Corporation’s decision to proceed with work to fill in their cellars despite assurances from the Department of Arts and Culture that the issue is being referred to the National Heritage Council.
      “Mr Michael Casey, who has owned one of the houses at Henrietta Street for more than 15 years with his wife and family, said the Department had ‘led us to believe that work would stop pending a report from the council, but at 8 o’clock this morning the Corporation started again without any notice to us.’
      “He said the Green Party city councillor, Mr Ciaran Cuffe, had also been given assurances that no further work would be carried out.
      “Mr Casey complained that in blocking up the under-street cellars, the Corporation was making it very difficult, if not impossible, for the National Heritage Council to gain access to inspect them.
      “He accused the Corporation of seeking to pre-empt the council’s consideration of the matter, on foot of a ruling from An Bord Pleanala – in a case taken by the Corporation itself – that the cellars did not form part of the structures in the street which were listed for preservation.
      “Mr Ian Lumley, who owns one of the other houses on the street, said last night that the reference to An Bord Pleanala had been made by the Corporation without the property-owners on the street being notified in any way, and all of the repaving work was initiated without any survey of the cellars.
      “However, the Corporation maintains that the repaving of the street cannot be completed until the ‘foundations’ which support the paving – and the cars which are regularly parked there – are made safe. For its paving department, the primary issue is one of public safety rather than archaeology.
      “‘We see ourselves as the saviours of the street’, said Mr Noel Carroll, the Corporation’s spokesman, referring to the long-standing scheme to repave it with traditional granite flags and limestone setts. ‘We are trying, at great expense, to improve the street with the works we are carrying out.’
      “He said the Corporation was prepared to talk to local residents about its plans. ‘But in the meantime, we’re going to rectify a situation that is dangerous. We don’t want to leave ourselves open to accusations of negligence, so nobody is going to stop us lifting a shovel to remove this danger.’
      “The repaving work was started over two years ago, but it was disrupted when the cellars of two of [the] houses apparently caved in. The Corporation is now seeking to fill in all of the cellars, but this is being resisted by the newly formed Henrietta Street Preservation Society.”

    • #712664
      Jas
      Participant

      so henrietta street has been left to rot since 1992…….

    • #712665
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Dublin Corporation
      PRESS RELEASE – 6th June, 2000

      “Henrietta Street Conservation Study Presentation

      The Henrietta Street Conservation Study was presented by Dublin City Manager, John Fitzgerald to the property owners on Tuesday, 6th June, 2000 at 6.00p.m. in the Bencher’s Room, Kings Inn, Dublin 7 (Constitution Hill Entrance).   The study will provide guidance for all the concerned interests in the future conservation of the street.  Speakers will include Justice Ronan Keane and Professor Kevin Nolan.

      As part of the EU co-funded Historical Area Rejuvenation Project (HARP), Dublin Corporation commissioned the Dublin Civic Trust to carry out a detailed conservation assessment and brief for the future of Henrietta Street.  One of the prime objectives of HARP is to develop a co-ordinated approach for the future of the area through partnership with Dublin Corporation, private sector property owners and non-Government organisations.

      Henrietta Street contains the most architecturally and historically significant group of Georgian town houses in Dublin and adjoins the impressive Kings Inns complex. The twelve surviving houses, which date from 1730, were built for some of the leading political and aristocratic families of the period, including the Gardiners. The interiors contain some of the most impressive staircases and plasterwork in Dublin, as the street was occupied by so many figures of wealth and fashion, such as Bishops and leading office holders of State. Many of the houses were altered and further embellished during the late 18th and early 19th centuries, so that the street presents a microcosm of Georgian craftsmanship and detailing of international significance. While the street became a tenement for most of the last century, this paradoxically preserved the street as a time capsule while many of the interiors evoke the stage setting of Sean O’Casey’s plays.

      The first stage of the study, which was completed in late 1998, comprised a detailed archival, photographic and descriptive inventory of each individual house identifying all features of significance worthy of preservation. 

      The second and final stage of the study, which is the subject of this presentation, provides for a detailed structural and architectural conservation report for each of the individual buildings.  This report together with a conservation based works programme and cost plan provides guidance for property owners on the conservation and preservation of these unique buildings to the highest specification.  The report was prepared by a multi-disciplinary team co-ordinated by the Dublin Civic Trust, which operates as a charitable conservation advisory body based at the historic 4 Castle Street, Dublin2. “

      Here’s hoping!

    • #712666
      LOB
      Participant

      Noticed yesterday that No3 Henrietta street (which was reputed to be the subject of a future CPO by Dublin Corporation) has some samples of render on it, presumably because of the appalling state of the brickwork-hope they don’t go ahead with it.
      It all seems like a pathetic attempt to spend as little money as possible on the building without addressing the fundamental problems.

    • #712667
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      The corporation has served notice of intention to acquire No3 and 14.

    • #712668
      Martin Shiels
      Participant

      Where would one go to see the above study? I’m a new tenant on Henrietta St. so have an interest in it’s future.

    • #712669
      LOB
      Participant

      As far I as know the documents were produced for the owners on henrietta street and not really as a public document . try your landlord on henrietta street or the dublin civic trust(castle street)or dublin corporation preservation office(not sure of its official title).
      If the building you are living in has recently been the subject of a planning application then the document may be on the planning file. A specific document was compiled for each building giving surveys of existing state and proposals its upkeep.

      [This message has been edited by LOB (edited 15 December 2000).]

    • #712670
      LOB
      Participant

      The samples of render on No. 3 mentioned yesterday have now been removed

    • #712671
      LOB
      Participant

      A planning notice has been put up on Number 3 for change of use at ground and first floor and part of the basement for offices
      with 5 apartments at second and third floor as well as the remaining part of the basement.

    • #712672
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      What effect is that going to have on the interior?

    • #712673
      LOB
      Participant

      I have not had the chance to check yet. might try in the next few days

    • #712674
      doozer
      Participant

      Does anyone know whats going to happen to the houses on Henrietta that have yet to be taken in hand? Walking past today I noticed that the first on the left is up for sale by DC. I’m presuming that they’re listed but what are the conditions of sale?I’m aware that three at the top of the street have been recently renovated but surely we can make a bit more of a concerted effort to save these, they are magnificent.
      I know that they were slums for a long time but when first built they were considered the finest buildings in the city before the move across the river. The facades are a bit the worst for wear ,the brick is beginning to break down after years of mistreatment. I’d hate to see them massacered for a commercial venture- anyone know anything?

    • #712675
      MG
      Participant

      If the Kings Inns thought that they needed more space in the future, they should jump at the chance.

    • #712676
      LOB
      Participant

      There are actually two for sale (3 & 14)
      I doubt if The Kings Inns would need that much room & whether they would be appropriate for their uses.

    • #712677
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      No 15 has the builders in at the moment. A new roof is going on, the galvanised temp onw has been removed and there was a delivery of steel girders during the last few weeks. Also sounds of building work from within.

      Just from living beside them, some of the houses are in a dreadful state. Ian Lumley of An Taisce, his looks desperate from outside, must be rotting inside.

      Archeire Henrietta Street

    • #712678
      GregF
      Participant

      I thought this street was designated a National Heritage Site………Jesus are they waiting for the buildings to fall down before they do anything….It’s gas the two faceness of the clicque….they spend millions excavating fields and bogs wanting to put up tourist centres yet they let our already built environment fall down about us……the thick C***ts..will they ever cop on. I think it is a part of that anti Dub thing……..which led to the brutal destruction of Ireland’s capital city in the first place.

    • #712679
      James
      Participant

      Actually

      Lumleys House No 12 is in prettty good state of repair he’s beenworking onit for the last twenty years so no surprises there.

      Caseys, no 13 is in very good nick and 4 (Hanrattys) ispristine internally, don’t be deceived by dirty brickwork.

      Ask for a tour.

    • #712680
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      No4 is pristine? Funny I got that impression from it, must be the well painted front door, thats normally the last thing to be done.

    • #712681
      notjim
      Participant

      Now is your chance: #7 Henrietta St on sale for 1.85 MEur! Let’s all chip in.

      http://www.myhome.ie/residential/search/brochure/7-henrietta-street-north-city-centre-dublin-co&-city/CAKTS349261

    • #712682
      reddy
      Participant

      The results of the competition for no.16 Henrietta St are due to go on public display in the next couple of weeks. In the City Council Offices I think. Should be interesting to see the various responses. They received around eighty entries. I presume a winner will be announced before the exhibition.

    • #712683
      newgrange
      Participant

      Slightly OT, but would anyone have a picture of the original 16 Henrietta Street? Saw it being requested on another forum.

    • #712684
      missarchi
      Participant

      half of the entry’s are already on display at DCC the carpark one is a classic…
      be good if Hackett’s print properly;)

    • #712685
      gunter
      Participant

      Had some business in the Planning office today and I got off a few snaps of the Henrietta Street Competition exhibition while I was there.

      Even from a two minute inspection, it was clear that the entries could be broken down into a few distinct categories.

      For convenience, I’ve listed them: Glass, Brick, Mesh and Concrete.

      Here’s one example of each:


      Glass


      Brick


      mesh


      Concrete.

      That last one is off the wall completely. The exhibition seemed to be well worth a look. As usual though, there was no information about how long the exhibition was to be up for and no external banners or anything to entice the public in.

      York Street and Henrietta Street are two threads of a very interesting potential debate that unfortunately isn’t actually happening.

    • #712686
      neatdesign
      Participant

      Hi all,

      I took some snaps also, check them out.

      http://www.neatdesign.ie then go to the news blog [bottom right].

      We are trying to keep our news section up to date with the latest info so if something is going on you think we should know about just email us.

      Cheers
      neatdesign.

    • #712687
      gunter
      Participant

      I take it nobody’s putting their head above the parapet on this one!

    • #712688
      Devin
      Participant

      I heard the brick one won. Very Kahn-as-repopularised-by-a-certain-Dublin-office.

    • #712689
      GrahamH
      Participant

      And extremely interesting. However please do not say it is also intended to incorporate a ‘rebuilt’ parapet as pictured above? And when was this decision made? Who made it? Has the decision been released?

      I always thought this was going to be a case of a toss-up between a conservative-with-a-twist brick scheme and a thoroughly abstract but uber-refined and respectful ‘incident’. As such both the mesh and glow-in-the-dark ones both have immense appeal, but suffice to say the stark and stoical, respectful yet individual, grim and foreboding brick number does it for me, What swings it is that it has a tenement quality reflective of the street’s history and current character, and that if built, will be sustained long after the thoroughfare (if ever) becomes a smug tuckpointed enclave of charcoal and lavender doorcases.

      There are reservations however that the focal Kahn elevation is an overdressed elevation for a minor side street, and is being used for the sake of it being an architectural competition and elevating the scheme beyond that of plain reproduction. Still, very beautiful, and the vaguely gothic/gothick character singing the tune of the 1740s.

    • #712690
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Are the window opes to Henrietta actually to be blanked ? would simple clear glazing cause such offence ? I really think the elevation to Henrietta Place has too much going on.

      I’m leaning more towards the mesh, though don’t like the change of line as it meets the ground on the side elevation.

    • #712691
      gunter
      Participant

      @GrahamH wrote:

      . . . the stark and stoical, respectful yet individual, grim and foreboding brick number does it for me, . . . it has a tenement quality . . . that if built, will be sustained long after the thoroughfare (if ever) becomes a smug tuckpointed enclave of charcoal and lavender doorcases.

      You are a seriously dark individual!

    • #712692
      hutton
      Participant

      The brick one works for me. Agree with gunter that the concrete one is “off the wall completely” – what an abomination – who were the culprits responsible for that croc gunter?

      I like the detailing on the side wall of the brick proposal – normally such an elaborate treatment for a side lane would be OTT, yet in this instance given Henrietta Streets significance I think it’s quite appropriate.

      One thing that baffles me though is, what’s this about a concrete Jersey barrier separating the lightwell from the pavement? :confused: …Is that being chipped in free-of-charge from the NRA who haven’t used it on a motorway? Railings please, and contextually appropriate detailing…

    • #712693
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      Before I knew which one was the winner, the brick one got my vote. I do think the ‘side’ is over-detailed, but I like the blind ‘front’. Also, as noted by the Assessors, the use of this building was thought about, unlike many of the others which proposed ‘museum’ or ‘gallery’ etc. (I’d read their comments, but didn’t know to which building they referred.)

      This competition also highlights yet again how inappropriate and insensitive the corner building on Bolton Street is.

      gunter- neatdesign’s blog seems to suggest that the exhibition is only on until Friday. I presume that means until close of business on Friday, unlike a certain other architectural exhibition discussed on here recently.

      Graham- what do you mean about the parapet rebuilding? Not sure I follow you. Ta.

    • #712694
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      Also, in case you haven’t seen this:

      Ryan W. Kennihan Architects wins Henrietta Street Ideas Competition

      Archiseek.com

      The commission of an Open Ideas Architectural Design Competition to
      address the site of No. 16 Henrietta Street was enshrined as a policy
      in the Henrietta Street Conservation Plan, (2006). The competition was
      organised by the Royal Institutes of Architects of Ireland (RIAI). The
      competition aimed to establish a design framework for the development
      of the site, which is informed by the Conservation Plan and best
      architectural practice, and to generate debate and discussion on the
      challenge of contemporary design as in-fill in sensitive historic
      settings. Design approaches were open to each entrant and could
      include designs sympathetic to the context and setting without being
      archaeologically correct or historically precise, and which is not
      pastiche; and infill design that contrasts strongly with the
      architectural language, setting and context of Henrietta Street.

      http://ireland.archiseek.com/news/2008/000236.html

    • #712695
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Ah thanks for that link. All questions answered.

      From the image it would appear it is intended to built the parapet in a different brick, matching that of the rebuilt 19th century parapet of the adjoining house. Surely the correct thing to do is to rebuilt both parapets in appropriate brick.

      Agreed with hutton – the bunker ground floor is not pretty.

      @gunter wrote:

      You are a seriously dark individual!

      You’re not the first to say that, alas.

    • #712696
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      @GrahamH wrote:

      From the image it would appear it is intended to built the parapet in a different brick, matching that of the rebuilt 19th century parapet of the adjoining house. Surely the correct thing to do is to rebuilt both parapets in appropriate brick.

      Ah, gotcha. Thanks, and agreed- what a silly idea. It’s not as if this is in the category of ‘sham ruin’.

    • #712697
      urbanisto
      Participant

      I’d opt for the mesh myself…its hot a very curious quality atht i think would contrast well with the exsting buildings. The glass is boring.

    • #712698
      gunter
      Participant

      There are a couple of interesting things said about the winning scheme in the competition citation. One thing that strikes me is the praise rightly given to the simple devise of the recessed or ‘negative corner’ that articulates the reconstructed front facade from the new creation that is the side elevation onto Henrietta Place.

      If this is the moment that contemporary architecture redescovers the power of subtlety, this will have been a good day’s work.

      ‘Reconstruction’ ! that was another forbidden word.

      There could be a lot to take from this. Even that side elevation with it’s, initially strange, Hanseatic brick arcading is starting to make sense to me. These early Georgian houses were all about their heavy brick solidity, they were the sober anti-dote to the fantastic, precarious, Dutch Billys that predominated in the Dublin urban scene in the 1720s. This winning design takes the sober brick solidity and has a bit of dark fun with it.

      Ryan W. Kennihan might have a strange bastardized spelling to his name, but hats off to him, the boy’s done well.

    • #712699
      fergalr
      Participant

      @gunter wrote:


      Concrete.

      It looks a little like Megatron is trying to couple with the adjoining building… :confused:

    • #712700
      GP
      Participant

      Concrete – set of diving platforms?

      How come this street fails in its potential? It is known widely around the world from the many period films it is used in. What would it cost in real money to fix? Why does it never seem to grab the attention of the legal profession for use as cahmbers or the like, surely this is a sympathetic solution?

      A street of 18th century palazzios in a moribund part of the city – it seems unreal. I suspect that we will have to wait until the next boom.

      The last comment I would make is about the briock option, is lokks good but just brings Breugels Tower of Babel to mind.

      http://agnosticatheism.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/babel1.jpg

    • #712701
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      Further images

    • #712702
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      The right kind of brick is going to be absolutely crucial for this.

      Is it planned to be built with traditional techniques, I wonder, or will it be modern? Those look suspiciously like brick jack arches in the third image.

    • #712703
      gunter
      Participant

      It’s not a crematorium, is it?

    • #712704
      neatdesign
      Participant

      @gunter wrote:

      It’s not a crematorium, is it?

      Nope Gunter, it’s a drug cutting lab, hence the bricked up windows.

      neatd.

    • #712705
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Close enough to Dominick St the first mega drug mart in the late 1970’s to create cluster of knowledge!!

      Seriously this is conceptually outstanding; the finish of the brick is just sublime. I really hope this gets built

    • #712706
      johnglas
      Participant

      So do I; H St needs a fillip. I take it this is by the architects (deB+M?) who did that masterly (or mistressly) newbuild at Cork IT.
      Good brickwork is a timeless aesthetic and ‘native’ to Dublin, BUT what is it – a house, an office, a museum?
      The rear view shows some interesting contrasts: the Amsterdam School flats, the ‘decent’ contemporary do., the absolutely dire neglect of the rear facades of the adjoining houses (why is grey cement the default material?) and the rubbish surfacing of the lane. But what a gem Henrietta St is – I don’t care how twee it gets, it just needs a good kick up the arse. I think this will do it.

    • #712707
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      It’s by Ryan W. Kennihan Architects
      http://ireland.archiseek.com/news/2008/000236.html

    • #712708
      Anonymous
      Participant

      It needs funding very badly; it is a real shame that unlike the UK where you have a very solvent national trust structure both in Scotland and the rest and the US where there are numerous local and specialist national non-profit groups which are extemely solvent over a five year cycle. In Ireland there is no-one with the money to make an intervention.

      Completing a compulsory purchase of landlords such as the Underwoods is welcome and is certainly the kick up the arse you refer to but the lack of finance to do what the Underwoods were cpo’d for not doing is the real problem. I would join a group on Henrietta Street if one existed.

    • #712709
      gunter
      Participant

      @PVC King wrote:

      I would join a group on Henrietta Street if one existed.

      I believe notjim recently pointed out that no. 7 was up for sale and, if I’m not mistaken, suggested we all club together to find the €1.85M asking price!

      archiseek all living together as one big disfunctional family, in delapidated splendour, is surely a vision with fate written all over it.

    • #712710
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      It would complement the convent up the road quite nicely too.

      As long as someone has a word with hutton about not leaving his teabags in the sink, count me in.

    • #712711
      PTB
      Participant

      I’m calling shotgun on a double bed

      Will this competition be followed through to completion or is it a ‘what if?’ exercise.

    • #712712
      interiorlight
      Participant

      Is it possible to access any of the buildings for interior photography , as an irish photograher who documents such I find it almost impossible to gain access before they are changed . Any help apreciated .

      http://www.jameshughesphotography.com

    • #712713
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      Maybe drop a lettter into the houses – will probably work.

    • #712714
      aj
      Participant

      @Jas wrote:

      so henrietta street has been left to rot since 1992…….

      still no progress 2009.

      I walked around Heinretta Street on Saturday and could not believe the condition the street is in.

      Surely there has to be a self sustaining / funding use for this street.

    • #712715
      johnglas
      Participant

      Shareyour views; in all my visits to Dublin, I can never understand why this street is in the condition that it’s in. Since it is in the heart of the legal quarter, the obvious solution is for the houses to be developed as some kind of legal ‘chambers’ (although I’m aware the Irish Bar does not operate that system), especially on the south side of the street (with the vanished no. 16 replaced). The Sisters of Charity have done a grand job with nos. 8-10, so there is no inherent reason apart form inertia and the fact that it’s not south of the river why the rest should not be done. That and the fact that your planning department is terminally useless. But why doesn’t Dublin Civic Trust get a grant and do it themselves and then lease them off? (Sorry, forgot about the inalienable and untouchable rights of private property, no matter how irresponsible.)

    • #712716
      jdivision
      Participant

      Are most of them still owned by the Underwoods. There’s been one for sale there for years but they’re looking for silly money for what is essentially a wreck.

    • #712717
      aj
      Participant

      If ever there was a place for an open air museum of Georgian Dublin this is it.

      The tourist board are only too keen to stress Dublins Georgian heritage to the yanks et al. but where is there any real museum of one of the most important periods in the citys history.

      The Palace stables in Armagh was restored as a living tourist attraction the Ulster American Folk park is similiar. The Ulster American Folk park get close on 200,000 vistors a year depsite being in Tyrone.

      Surely Heinretta Street is perfect a such a living museum. What do you think?

    • #712718
      rumpelstiltskin
      Participant

      @aj wrote:

      If ever there was a place for an open air museum of Georgian Dublin this is it.

      The tourist board are only too keen to stress Dublins Georgian heritage to the yanks et al. but where is there any real museum of one of the most important periods in the citys history.

      The Palace stables in Armagh was restored as a living tourist attraction the Ulster American Folk park is similiar. The Ulster American Folk park get close on 200,000 vistors a year depsite being in Tyrone.

      Surely Heinretta Street is perfect a such a living museum. What do you think?

      Something has to be done about the surrounding area first. It’s actually slightly intimidating walking up there, as I imagine it would be for any tourists. I think this is part of the reason it’s so neglected; the fact that it’s survived around here at all is pretty amazing.

    • #712719
      aj
      Participant

      @rumpelstiltskin wrote:

      Something has to be done about the surrounding area first. It’s actually slightly intimidating walking up there, as I imagine it would be for any tourists. I think this is part of the reason it’s so neglected; the fact that it’s survived around here at all is pretty amazing.

      true but so is St Patricks Catherdal

    • #712720
      johnglas
      Participant

      I’ve visited H St many times and never been ‘intimidated’: do you people never leave the suburbs?

    • #712721
      hutton
      Participant

      A few facts to clarify:

      Having spoken recently to some of the owners, I can throw some light on this.

      Firstly, to answer jdivision, the council have taken ownership of two houses, numbers 3 and 14 by CPO, previously owned by the Underwoods. The Underwoods no longer own any property on this street. The house referred to as being for sale, number 7 is indeed in serious need of restoration and €1m+ would be the very minimum to get a good start underway; however at under €2m acquisition cost for more than 8,000 sq feet, I wouldn’t consider this to be “silly money” – at 4 floors over basement, 4 bays wide, the building would make an excellent corporate HQ, and has an amazing double height hallway with a baroque ceiling. More details are at the bottom of this post.

      Secondly regarding the points made by AJ and Johnglas, I thoroughly agree. The street has been left in a disgraceful condition, however I want to make a few further points here:

      1) About 15 years ago Dublin City Council commissioned repaving of the street, setting in cobbles replacing tarmac; however they did this in the absence of professionally qualified advice, with the result that the load bearing of the new cobbles started collapsing the street into cellars. Dublin City Council’s way to rectify such a problem, and restore the city’s oldest street – well to fill in the cellars with concrete 😮

      Understandably a number of owners who had bought houses to prevent demolition in the 60s and 70s went nuts about this and were forced to take legal action to stop the council doing this to all of their properties on what is Dublin’s oldest Georgian street.

      DCC simply then sat back and left the street covered with roadworks bollards for over 10 years, during the boom, substantially devaluing all properties on the street. This has since been resolved 18 months ago with owners ultimately accepting reinstatement of the cellar forms in concrete, as they could no longer afford legal bills. In reinstating the public domain, DCC inserted brand new granite slabs rather than appropriate historic pavings, some of which I now see have subsequently been removed with tarmac once again featuring as pavement 🙁
      No compensation or grants to do up the houses was given by DCC for the years of damage they presided over.

      2) The monsterous block built at the end of the street was approved by Dublin City Council in 2003 – again the DCC planning department to blame, who should have stopped this.

      3) Two years ago DCC produced a “conservation report”, which one would think would indicate that they now were going to show some commitment to the street. 10s of 1000s was spent on commissioning the report – however, once again no money whatsoever was allocated to the actual buildings themselves, except in fairness the structural consolidation of numbers 3 and 14, the houses CPO’d from the Underwoods. Hence in effect, a report that tells everyone how important the street is which is already well documented, and effectively nothing else.

      4) Last year an “ideas competition” was commissioned up by DCC to reinstate the missing half of number 15; although a noble idea in itsef – and an excellent winning design – the reality on the ground is that no physical change occurs.

      Are we beginning to notice a theme here? In my opinion it is very much at the door of DCC that the blame lies 😡

      Bought by conservationists in the 60s and 70s as the buildings were under serious immediate threat, a number of the houses have been let to artists since the 70s which at least kept some life – however such lettings I do not believe would bring in much money. Instead should an owner wish to restore one of these houses, they will be further penalised by DCC with a development levies bill somewhere in the order of 40 – 70 thousand euros per house – so a further disincentive.

      Despite all of this, the nuns did an excellent restoration of numbers 8 – 10 ten years ago, the King’s Inns have recently restored number 11, while numbers 5 and 6 have also had some works done in restoring the facades – as far as I am aware no grants money was made available by the state for these works. Furthermore I also note that number 13 is currently undergoing facade restoration.

      Finally I fully agree that the street would make a tremendous amenity for tourism as an intact Georgian open air museum, particularly as it sits on top of what is now the ACA of Capel St – but it may be worth noting that there is absolutely no marketing of here or any other part of north Georgian Dublin. Instead just up the road two years ago DCC were happy to give the go-ahead to the demolition of the what they believed to be the birthplace of Richard Brinsley Sheridan at 12 Dorset Street. Subsequently refused on appeal to An BP, it then transpired the house wasn’t actually Sheridan’s as the street was renumbered – however despite this, the developer has since revised his scheme to reinstate that house and match it with a pastiche, and erect a plaque on the front noting BS’s connection with the street. So an amusing and happy ending there – but no thanks to DCC 😡

      Hope this helps clarify a few points 🙂

      Regarding number 7, the house for sale: http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?search_type=sale&id=280077&map_lat=53.3537509049662&map_lng=-6.2529587399939&map_zoom=15&unique=7-2009.1-2.7839f27fdb159fc884b7df0eda1f2243&__utma=200121531.1343017351.1237777925.1237777925.1248873525.2&__utmz=200121531.1237777933.1.1.utmcsr%3Darchiseek.com|utmccn%3D(referral)|utmcmd%3Dreferral|utmcct%3D%2Fcontent%2Fshowthread.php&daftID=c52ecf8b278a46705d5fb771bc51ad2c&__utmb=200121531.4.10.1248873525&__utmc=200121531&fr=default&limit=10&offset=0

    • #712722
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      pity i’m currently short of a few bob

    • #712723
      rumpelstiltskin
      Participant

      @johnglas wrote:

      I’ve visited H St many times and never been ‘intimidated’: do you people never leave the suburbs?

      Are you denying that that particular area of Dublin is filthy and badly maintained? This creates an unconscious sense of distaste and insecurity. There’s absolutely no reason whatsoever that the average person would have to stroll up to Henrietta Street.

    • #712724
      aj
      Participant

      @hutton wrote:

      A few facts to clarify:

      Having spoken recently to some of the owners, I can throw some light on this.

      Firstly, to answer jdivision, the council have taken ownership of two houses, numbers 3 and 14 by CPO, previously owned by the Underwoods. The Underwoods no longer own any property on this street. The house referred to as being for sale, number 7 is indeed in serious need of restoration and €1m+ would be the very minimum to get a good start underway; however at under €2m acquisition cost for more than 8,000 sq feet, I wouldn’t consider this to be “silly money” – at 4 floors over basement, 4 bays wide, the building would make an excellent corporate HQ, and has an amazing double height hallway with a baroque ceiling. More details are at the bottom of this post.

      Secondly regarding the points made by AJ and Johnglas, I thoroughly agree. The street has been left in a disgraceful condition, however I want to make a few further points here:

      1) About 15 years ago Dublin City Council commissioned repaving of the street, setting in cobbles replacing tarmac; however they did this in the absence of professionally qualified advice, with the result that the load bearing of the new cobbles started collapsing the street into cellars. Dublin City Council’s way to rectify such a problem, and restore the city’s oldest street – well to fill in the cellars with concrete 😮

      Understandably a number of owners who had bought houses to prevent demolition in the 60s and 70s went nuts about this and were forced to take legal action to stop the council doing this to all of their properties on what is Dublin’s oldest Georgian street.

      DCC simply then sat back and left the street covered with roadworks bollards for over 10 years, during the boom, substantially devaluing all properties on the street. This has since been resolved 18 months ago with owners ultimately accepting reinstatement of the cellar forms in concrete, as they could no longer afford legal bills. In reinstating the public domain, DCC inserted brand new granite slabs rather than appropriate historic pavings, some of which I now see have subsequently been removed with tarmac once again featuring as pavement 🙁
      No compensation or grants to do up the houses was given by DCC for the years of damage they presided over.

      2) The monsterous block built at the end of the street was approved by Dublin City Council in 2003 – again the DCC planning department to blame, who should have stopped this.

      3) Two years ago DCC produced a “conservation report”, which one would think would indicate that they now were going to show some commitment to the street. 10s of 1000s was spent on commissioning the report – however, once again no money whatsoever was allocated to the actual buildings themselves, except in fairness the structural consolidation of numbers 3 and 14, the houses CPO’d from the Underwoods. Hence in effect, a report that tells everyone how important the street is which is already well documented, and effectively nothing else.

      4) Last year an “ideas competition” was commissioned up by DCC to reinstate the missing half of number 15; although a noble idea in itsef – and an excellent winning design – the reality on the ground is that no physical change occurs.

      Are we beginning to notice a theme here? In my opinion it is very much at the door of DCC that the blame lies 😡

      Bought by conservationists in the 60s and 70s as the buildings were under serious immediate threat, a number of the houses have been let to artists since the 70s which at least kept some life – however such lettings I do not believe would bring in much money. Instead should an owner wish to restore one of these houses, they will be further penalised by DCC with a development levies bill somewhere in the order of 40 – 70 thousand euros per house – so a further disincentive.

      Despite all of this, the nuns did an excellent restoration of numbers 8 – 10 ten years ago, the King’s Inns have recently restored number 11, while numbers 5 and 6 have also had some works done in restoring the facades – as far as I am aware no grants money was made available by the state for these works. Furthermore I also note that number 13 is currently undergoing facade restoration.

      Finally I fully agree that the street would make a tremendous amenity for tourism as an intact Georgian open air museum, particularly as it sits on top of what is now the ACA of Capel St – but it may be worth noting that there is absolutely no marketing of here or any other part of north Georgian Dublin. Instead just up the road two years ago DCC were happy to give the go-ahead to the demolition of the what they believed to be the birthplace of Richard Brinsley Sheridan at 12 Dorset Street. Subsequently refused on appeal to An BP, it then transpired the house wasn’t actually Sheridan’s as the street was renumbered – however despite this, the developer has since revised his scheme to reinstate that house and match it with a pastiche, and erect a plaque on the front noting BS’s connection with the street. So an amusing and happy ending there – but no thanks to DCC 😡

      Hope this helps clarify a few points 🙂

      Regarding number 7, the house for sale: http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?search_type=sale&id=280077&map_lat=53.3537509049662&map_lng=-6.2529587399939&map_zoom=15&unique=7-2009.1-2.7839f27fdb159fc884b7df0eda1f2243&__utma=200121531.1343017351.1237777925.1237777925.1248873525.2&__utmz=200121531.1237777933.1.1.utmcsr%3Darchiseek.com|utmccn%3D(referral)|utmcmd%3Dreferral|utmcct%3D%2Fcontent%2Fshowthread.php&daftID=c52ecf8b278a46705d5fb771bc51ad2c&__utmb=200121531.4.10.1248873525&__utmc=200121531&fr=default&limit=10&offset=0

      in summary DCC are a joke

    • #712725
      gunter
      Participant

      @hutton wrote:

      The monsterous block built at the end of the street was approved by Dublin City Council in 2003 – again the DCC planning department to blame, who should have stopped this.

      What is so terribly wrong about that building?

      OK, it’s a big square block, but most of the lauded Henrietta Street houses are big square blocks!

      I think it was one of the better in-fill apartment schemes from the ‘Tiger’ years and until the etched glass balconies were bolted on flush, killing some of the window proportions, and the etched glass roof terrace barrier went on, killing the vertical proportions of the chimneyesque central lift shaft, this was a class scheme, no?

    • #712726
      johnglas
      Participant

      Are you denying that that particular area of Dublin is filthy and badly maintained? This creates an unconscious sense of distaste and insecurity. There’s absolutely no reason whatsoever that the average person would have to stroll up to Henrietta Street.

      You’ve gone on to a completely different argument; why should ‘distaste’ (oddly anally-retentive word) lead to ‘insecurity’? OK. it’s run-down, but it’s interesting compared to the manicured banality of suburbia. The principal reason for strolling up to Henrietta St is Henrietta St!
      :rolleyes:

    • #712727
      fergalr
      Participant

      @johnglas wrote:

      The principal reason for strolling up to Henrietta St is Henrietta St!
      :rolleyes:

      I thought the principal reason was being a barrister 😉

    • #712728
      hutton
      Participant

      @gunter wrote:

      What is so terribly wrong about that building?
      I think it was one of the better in-fill apartment schemes from the ‘Tiger’ years… this was a class scheme, no?

      [/QUOTE]

      gunter, first you attack O’D+Ts Timber Yard scheme, and now you defend this yoke??? Come off it – trolling, trolling, trolling… troll on :p

    • #712729
      GrahamH
      Participant

      gunter is suffering from the after-effects of sunstroke from his Billy holiday. I think a lie down for a week is in order.

    • #712730
      hutton
      Participant

      @GrahamH wrote:

      gunter is suffering from the after-effects of sunstroke from his Billy holiday. I think a lie down for a week is in order.

      Lol. +1 to that 😀

    • #712731
      hutton
      Participant

      @hutton wrote:

      Despite all of this, the nuns did an excellent restoration of numbers 8 – 10 ten years ago, the King’s Inns have recently restored number 11, while numbers 5 and 6 have also had some works done in restoring the facades – as far as I am aware no grants money was made available by the state for these works.

      For point of clarity I want to correct myself here – the nuns did receive a substantial state grant when they restored their houses – I meant the other houses 🙂

    • #712732
      gunter
      Participant

      That’s a brutal photograph hutton!

      That’s Daily Star hatchet-job-on-Kate-Moss quality. I know have a shot of it somewhere, before all that pale green glass got bolted on, and it wasn’t that bad.

    • #712733
      rumpelstiltskin
      Participant

      @johnglas wrote:

      You’ve gone on to a completely different argument; why should ‘distaste’ (oddly anally-retentive word) lead to ‘insecurity’? OK. it’s run-down, but it’s interesting compared to the manicured banality of suburbia. The principal reason for strolling up to Henrietta St is Henrietta St!
      :rolleyes:

      There’s nothing as anally retentive as using the phrase “anally retentive”. I think that when streets are dirty and unkempt, even if there’s little danger of being mugged, people feel insecure. I’m sure there’s some deep-seated psychological reason for it. And plead ignorance if you want, but I know most of you know what I mean. In any case, people are unlikely to randomly wander to Henrietta Street in the same way they would to Fitzwilliam Square.

    • #712734
      johnglas
      Participant

      I’m sure there’s some deep-seated psychological reason for it

      It’s called being anally-retentive, I’m afraid, or ‘bourgeois angst’. Fitzwilliam Square is very attractive and well-maintained, but as a point of interest, it is no more so than Henrietta St.
      Of course, we all want areas that are well maintained (and I am as nit-picking as anyone else in that respect), but to induce a climate of fear as a discouragement to actually going anywhere in a city strikes me as counter-productive and unfair. To repeat, as a tourist I have never had any hesitation in visiting both these areas and it is wrong to discourage anyone from doing so.

    • #712735
      rumpelstiltskin
      Participant

      @johnglas wrote:

      It’s called being anally-retentive, I’m afraid, or ‘bourgeois angst’. Fitzwilliam Square is very attractive and well-maintained, but as a point of interest, it is no more so than Henrietta St.
      Of course, we all want areas that are well maintained (and I am as nit-picking as anyone else in that respect), but to induce a climate of fear as a discouragement to actually going anywhere in a city strikes me as counter-productive and unfair. To repeat, as a tourist I have never had any hesitation in visiting both these areas and it is wrong to discourage anyone from doing so.

      Let’s hope that the new open air Georgian museum can pay for itself entirely from the entrance fees of intrepid architecture buffs, though I doubt it somehow. It would be as forlorn as the Irish Museum of Modern Art, and the museum at Collins Barracks.

    • #712736
      hutton
      Participant

      @gunter wrote:

      That’s a brutal photograph…it wasn’t that bad.

      :rolleyes:

      Oh yeah? Post up your snap so 🙂

      Meanwhile I’ll happily quote you back one of your earliest posts, from the Dutch Billys thread.

      I will be the first to acknowledge that you have made excellent contributions regarding Dutch Billys, and have added greatly to the collective knowledge of such stock – but I regret to say that in doing so your agenda is verging dangerously on the reactionary, in that you are doing so by down-playing the post-Billy Luke Gardiner initiated developments, of which Henrietta Street is obviously the first example.

      In that regard, I would put it to you gunter, whether you are now blinding yourself by your own well-informed but nonetheless dogma driven stylist reactionary agenda?

      Time for a little bit of political re-education perhaps? 😉

      @gunter wrote:

      So completely have the gabled streets of Dublin been lost, or masked, that the tendency has been to regard the dimly remembered curvilinear gabled houses as some kind of neanderthal off-shoot in the evolutionary process that shortly afterwards delivered the presumed perfection of ‘Georgian’ Dublin. Part of this may have been down to the agressive marketing of Luke Gardiner and his circle, who, in a very short space of time, managed to persuade upwardly mobile Dubliners that, not only were they living in the wrong part of town, but they were also living in the wrong design of house.

      Whatever about the origins of the style, what developed here was a full blown architectural movement with a complex language and a real urban vitality that none of Luke Gardiner’s sober ‘Georgian’ street would ever equal, in my opinion. To compare a complex ‘Dutch Billy’ corner with the half hearted efforts of the Georgians is to compare a piece of sculpture with a photocopy.

      The loss that Dublin suffered in going over to the Luke Gardiner led English Palladian model, and turning it’s back on it’s indigenous urban tradition, is not just about the near irradication of the whole record of an architectural style, it’s also about the substitution of a slightly superficial, segregated and imported model, for a truely urban, mixed use and socially integrated model.

      I don’t want to keep dumping on Luke Gardiner, given that he has attained such iconic status as the developer that all other developers are supposed to look up to, but his legacy is decidedly mixed at best… I’m just suggesting that, in that analogy, that man is Luke Gardiner, and he is an ugly man, and he smells.

      And

      @gunter wrote:

      Henrietta Street (the Luke Gardiner venture) is an exclusive up-market cul-de-sac of London type houses off an arterial route, with no attempt to integrate into the existing street or development pattern.

      If it could be established, for example, that this Manor Street house was originally flat parapeted, and if it could be dated to before 1728, then I’d have lay off on Gardiner on that front anyway, and just concentrate on giving him a good kicking on the ‘shifting the city off it’s access’ point, and the ‘one house design fits all’ point.

      “Luke Gardiner is an ugly man, and he smells”

      Poor Luke! 😀

    • #712737
      gunter
      Participant

      You left out my bit about the squirrels!

      That last bit should have read: he knocked the city off it’s axis . . .not access . . obviously.

      Are you saying he didn’t smell?

    • #712738
      Devin
      Participant

      @gunter wrote:

      What is so terribly wrong about that building?

      gunter, I’m surprised. We all had a good spout against this building at the tme. The bones of it was that it was (ab)using its poistion at the corner of Bolton Street and and Henrietta Street by using the scale of the latter’s houses when it should have been using the streetscape scale of the former.
      ….’subservience’ …. ‘supporting role’ …. I have heard you articulate these concepts at least once on the forum before (Paternoster Square?)
      (And please don’t go into a big defence against the building because it would be too difficult to take 🙂 )

    • #712739
      hutton
      Participant

      @gunter wrote:

      Are you saying he didn’t smell?

      That’s not the question. Your justification of this is:

      @gunter wrote:

      What is so terribly wrong about that building?

      OK, it’s a big square block, but most of the lauded Henrietta Street houses are big square blocks!

      I think it was one of the better in-fill apartment schemes from the ‘Tiger’ years… this was a class scheme, no?

      [/QUOTE]

      Come along now gunter, stop the bluster and answer the question!

      I am enjoying this 🙂

    • #712740
      gunter
      Participant

      Devin, I’m not going to go into battle for that scheme, I don’t like ‘blocks’ pure and simple, I think the ‘block’ is the wrong unit to use in the repair of streetscapes, but, as blocks go, I don’t think this one is as bad as has been made out.

      I’ve forgotten who the architects were, but you can certainly see a certain amount of architectural intention in it. For a start, they picked up the deBlacam + Meagher brick/pointing detail from the ‘Wooden Building’, which was well worth giving another whirl to, and they resisted the temptation to over-elaborate the corner and that should have earned them some brownie points at least.

      There should have been some stepping of the side elevation to reflect the sloping streetscape of Henrietta St. and (as I keep saying) the proportions all worked better before the etched glazing went on, but I think to gratuitously dump on it every time Henrietta Street is mentioned, is a bit unfair.

      Personally I can think of a couple of dozen worse spec apartment blocks in the inner city.

      Oh Christ! . . . now hutton’s back, are you two hunting in packs

    • #712741
      Devin
      Participant

      Architect was a bloke called Buckley, who I understand used to work for dB&M.

    • #712742
      gunter
      Participant

      Mr. Buckley should get out the lead and post a better picture and not let his creation take the hammering hutton’s picture gives it:) . . . It could take me a week to find mine, and that’s assuming that I actually took the pictures and didn’t just fully intend to take the pictures!

      One of the reasons I’d be a bit tolerant of the Henrietta Street block is that it doesn’t do this:


      a recent spec. apartment block around the corner on Mountjoy Street.

      These guys came up with 17 good ideas, but unfortunately they were let use all of them, with the result that the scheme bursts out in all directions, literally and architecturally;)

    • #712743
      garrain
      Participant

      hi all.fascinated with henrietta street.can someone please explain the underwoods connection with the street.ive heard before that they own multiple properties throughout dublin.if so ,which.?also no.7,which is currently for sale,but who is the seller.any help would be grateful.thanks

    • #712744
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      LUKE GARDINER was the key player in the development of Georgian Dublin with Henrietta Street his first venture in the 1720s before moving on to what is now O’Connell Street and Mountjoy Square among others.

      Now the houses he built at 15-16 Henrietta Street are set to be rejuvenated, three years after Dublin City Council ran an open design competition for the vacant site at 16 Henrietta Street, which was demolished some time around 1950 after being left derelict for about 25 years.

      The 2008 competition attracted a total of 79 entries, and the winning design was by Ryan W Kennihan Architects. Dublin City Council, which owns the properties after acquiring them under the Derelict Sites Act, is now planning to construct a new four-storey over garden level extension to the building as well as a new theatre in the rear gardens of the houses.

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