Government wants to repossess landmark College Green bank

Be interesting to see how it’s affected it Trinity get planning for the new pub on Foster Place

@jdivision wrote:

Be interesting to see how it’s affected it Trinity get planning for the new pub on Foster Place

A new pub? Prithee tell more!

As mentioned in the Forster Place thread, TCD has leased the banking hall on Forster place to a pub chain, I can’t remember which one and are applying for planning for the change of use.

https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4479

Is there a for sale sticker on it?;)

if we could get rid of the taxis in foster place it could make for a really nice little square

@notjim wrote:

As mentioned in the Forster Place thread, TCD has leased the banking hall on Forster place to a pub chain, I can’t remember which one and are applying for planning for the change of use.

https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4479

More pubs=good.

Not sure how the Irish Stock Exchange next door will react! I can imagine some upturned noses.

@jdivision wrote:

Not sure how the Irish Stock Exchange next door will react! I can imagine some upturned noses.

Upturned noses? When the ISEQ is sub-3000 they’re as impoverished as the rest of us. They might even welcome this new possibility for respite from the financial storm.

it’s got a new name “The Bank Job”

The wax museum is goin in here too…

New Location

The Museum will re-open next spring at a new location in Foster Place in College Green, Dublin 2.

Visitors will discover a world where fantasy and reality combine and heroes of the past and the present will come alive before their eyes.

Children will experience a World of Fairytale and Fantasy, as they wander through the Kingdom of Fairytales to find the magical lamp and the all powerful genie!

The main section of the wax exhibition will broadly reflect the historical and cultural development of Ireland. Here visitors will find life sized figures heroes, together with the literary figures: Joyce, Yeats, and their contemporaries.

Displays have an informative and educational narrative which can be heard at the touch of a button.

The Chamber of Horrors is for the brave. In the Hall of Megastars, patrons will meet the stars of the glittery world of rock and roll in the form of: Michael Jackson, Madonna and all time great, Elvis Presley.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Wax_Museum_(Ireland)

a further proof of the decline of dame street / college green

I dont know why this Wax Museum idea keeps getting peddled…I dont get what the attraction is.

Considering all the tax’s paid by the banks around here you would expect more…

http://www.arts-sport-tourism.gov.ie/publications/release.asp?ID=100234

Minister Cullen also confirmed that further to the publication of the contract notice for the redevelopment of the National Concert Hall in May this year, the project is progressing. Three consortia have been invited to participate in the dialogue phase that will lead to the placement of a contract for the new Concert Hall PPP project. Work is continuing on the PPP for the Abbey Theatre. All Access 11 approved projects will be funded in 2009 and 2010.

Great thread.

I am really interested in this building. Couple of questions.

1. What is behind the big wooden doors on Westmoreland st. On Bing earth it seems to show a street with what might be nice buildings, anyone have any idea?

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=swqr8hggbgq2&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=29507649&encType=1

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=swqr8hggbgq2&style=b&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&scene=29506805&encType=1

2. Whats behind the entrance on Foster place, I know the house of lords in on the otherside, but what is the big gallery building there?

3. What else is hidden behind the curtain walls. There must be some interesting facades from the original building?

If anyone has photos it would be great or if anyone has a friend in the bank.

@Service charge wrote:

If anyone has photos it would be great or if anyone has a friend in the bank.

It was robbed not long ago!

Interesting early drawing before the various remodelling took place. Really was such a different building in it’s original form.

@Service charge wrote:

Interesting early drawing before the various remodelling took place.

Never seen that drawing before, what’s the origins of it?
Any chance of posting a slightly clearer copy? . . . doesn’t matter about the centre bit:)

Actually, managed to find a copy online, as opposed to my camera phone. Plus another view

We bailed out BoI, let’s have their HQ

A CITY councillor has called for Bank of Ireland to give its historic headquarters on College Green to the Irish people, in return for bailing it out.

Cllr Nial Ring said, after the money Bank of Ireland had received from the tax payer, the “magnificent” and historical asset should be handed over, even by way of lease or loan.

He told the Herald: “In light of the amount they got from NAMA and with them reducing staff numbers, it’s only basically used now as a branch. I want to ask them if there’s any possibility they could give it to the people of Ireland.

“It would be something which could act as a gesture from Bank of Ireland — it’s a magnificent building.”

Cllr Ring is proposing to ask Dublin City Council or the Taoiseach to take the matter up with Bank of Ireland, and to develop the building into an exhibition space or museum.

Alternatively he said Minister for Tourism Culture and Sport Mary Hanafin, or Finance Minister Brian Lenihan could act on behalf of the Irish people.

Senator David Norris, who previously proposed that the building be used to house the Senate, said he supported the call. “The people of Ireland now own the banks, and the banks have swindled the people of Ireland. Bank of Ireland should come into public ownership.”

He added: “The whole Bank of Ireland is a protected structure so it would be absolute nonsense to suggest that the Abbey goes in there, but I’d be all in favour of an exhibition or a museum.”

The ‘House of Lords’ part of the building contains famous large scale tapestries that depict the Siege of Derry and the Battle of the Boyne.

And College Green is Dublin’s only major Italian piazza according to Cllr Ring, and opening up Bank of Ireland completely to the public would enhance the area.

CEREMONIAL

“It’s the only place you can get people into the one area and have a focal point on ceremonial occasions. When Ireland came back from the World Cup in 1990 people gathered there, and Clinton made his speech from there when he visited,” he explained. “With Trinity just across the road, it is an iconic building in the city. It would be great if we could have exhibitions or something there.”

A spokesperson for Bank of Ireland said it did not intend to dispose of the building “at this moment in time”.

“For a 10-year period between 1996 and 2006 the bank hosted a variety of art exhibitions and public events in an adjoining premises, which was leased, located on Foster Place known as The Arts Centre.”

She added: “Following an indepth review it was decided to close the building as it was deemed that the building, due to its age and facilities, was very limited in meeting the demands of modern day productions.”

Bank of Ireland purchased the building on College Green for £40,000 shortly after the Act of Union on August 24, 1803, and since then the bank has used it as a working branch and an administrative HQ.

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/we-bailed-out-boi-lets-have-their-hq-2144282.html

The banks probably lease them to themselves anyway.
Take all the banks and rent them to the banks!
All this stuff is like a big blanket the details will never come out because it will disclose to much and the state will be liable. I will never forgive the banks for harassing me to invest in the twilight years. It’s musical chairs…

Ah yes because we have lots of ideas for appropriate uses just crying out for a public owned beautiful historic building; like we have a million things we want to exhibit.

BoI maintaining the building and supporting a by now historically established use which permits public access is one of the few things in the favour!

Ring should go and shove a Custom’s House up his arse.

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

We bailed out BoI, let’s have their HQ

Seconded.

@kinsella wrote:

Seconded.

and then what?

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

We bailed out BoI, let’s have their HQ

“It’s the only place you can get people into the one area and have a focal point on ceremonial occasions. When Ireland came back from the World Cup in 1990 people gathered there…….

College Green could continue to host ceremonial occasions regardless of who occupies the Bank. However, as the location for the World Cup homecoming after Italia 90, the place was totally inadequate. I was there that night and it was pure luck that nobody was crushed to death by the crowds. The Phoenix park would have been a far more suitable location and sure enough, thats where the Irish team were welcomed home four years later when they returned from USA 94. Ironically College Green would have been the ideal location this time around given the small crowd that turned up at the park.

It was the wrong place for the Clinton visit too, as only those in the crowd with a direct view of the stage could catch a glimpse of the man. If Obama is ever granted the freedom to graze his sheep in Stephens Green I would guess that he won’t be presented with the keys to the city on the steps of The Bank of Ireland.

For what its worth, I’m also in favour of Cllr Ring’s call to have the building handed over to the state as long as it remains open to the public. I disagree with Senator Norris’ proposal to house the Seanad there. Although I think the good senator was just throwing the idea out there to gauge peoples opinion and always knew privately that such a move was a non runner.

@Global Citizen: remains open as what? Banking is the established historic use, it remains a fine bank and, as I said, the way the BoI maintains a slightly pompous and ceremonial atmosphere in the main banking hall is one of the things that does them credit. Why fall in with this silly and senseless populism?

Exhibition center: ha, what is all this stuff that is crying out to be exhibited. What is this perceived lack of fine historic buildings ready for re-use. Look around!

Cap salaries, make bankers sit in stocks in College Green, put people in prison, whatever, just don’t mess up one of the few examples of an historic building being well maintained in a public and historically established use.

The venue clearly is not large enough for important national events such as a Bill O visit or a once in a generation decent soccer team return but has its uses for more niche events. The BoI has always been very good at supporting the arts in providing the interior of the space etc. Also to say that BoI is nationalised is somewhat untrue; the National Pensions Reserve Fund was in a position to buy preference shares yielding a mammoth dividend at a very low price; these if held will when the bank raises capital through disposals and a rights issue be worth considerably more than was paid for them. The UK Government is now in profit on RBS and Lloyds but Northern Rock like INBS and Anglo are unfortunately case studies that every finance student will be examined on hopefully for generations to come as an important lesson well learned.

All that can be expected of BoI is that they enter the 21st century on City Centre car-parking i.e. close the one at their College Green branch and turn the space into a public venue for suitable events and continue to manage the building in the sensitive manner that they have to date other than the rushed wheelchair access application which had as much forward thinking planning as the Anglo balance sheet.

Continued use as a bank is a safe option, but conversion into a proper city museum certainly has merit.

There has long been vague talk of building a ‘museum of the city’, with sites such as that useless patch of grass on Winetavern Street [which currently affords a panoramic view of the Civic Office bunkers] being a particularly good option, if only the country wasn’t broke.

In the circumstances, the old Parliament House wouldn’t be a bad option. As well as it’s own inherent architectural and historical attributes, the building has numerous little wasted areas and courtyards that aerial views suggest are either totally unused or are in use just as surface car parks, these could make stunning exhibition spaces [if glazed over] which in conjunction with the existing historic interiors might make a world class museum.

As PVC said, getting the car parking out of the forecourt would be a positive, either way, as would having the whole building open 7 days.

I certainly can’t see the building ever returning to parliament house use.

I do not dispute that it would make a great museum; it is after all the original parlimentary experience the Country had. My concern for this building is one that I share with the GPO; there is a large banking hall that is ideal for a museum but what do you do with the warren of offices and vaults that makes up the rest of the building excluding the College Street facing entrance hall which is by a distance my favourate entrance hall in Dublin. I think it is an issue that could benefit from some operational research when the public finance or IFI funding positions merit it. i.e. potentially have BoI grant a long license to either the state or a charitable foundation for designated parts of the building; my guess is that they would be loathe to as the building is one of the rare examples of a building of European heritage importance that has commercial consent; which makes this particular worth a significant sum which they are unlikely to want to see evaporate in the absence of full value being paid; from an operational position I have no doubt that the rental value of the banking hall and offices would not come close to the annual maintenance and additional heating/cooling costs that come with such grand proportions and age. We need another era of Farmleigh style government finances to get triffling matters such as money out of the way!!!

@PVC King wrote:

the rushed wheelchair access application which had as much forward thinking planning as the Anglo balance sheet.

ha ha! Brilliant. 😀

@notjim wrote:

@Global Citizen: remains open as what? Banking is the established historic use, it remains a fine bank and, as I said, the way the BoI maintains a slightly pompous and ceremonial atmosphere in the main banking hall is one of the things that does them credit. Why fall in with this silly and senseless populism?

Exhibition center: ha, what is all this stuff that is crying out to be exhibited. What is this perceived lack of fine historic buildings ready for re-use. Look around!

Cap salaries, make bankers sit in stocks in College Green, put people in prison, whatever, just don’t mess up one of the few examples of an historic building being well maintained in a public and historically established use.

Snap!

The essential character of the Bank of Ireland (note, Bank of Ireland, not ‘former Parliament House’ – it has been the former for more than double the time of the latter) as it stands today is one of prestige and stately public declaration. This is not just a result of the remarkable grandeur of the building’s design, the genius of its detailing, or its obvious venerability. For this character is also, indeed if not largely, derived from its function as a ceremonial (if no longer operational) headquarters. This is significant.

It is wrong to suggest, as is often stated, that the Bank of Ireland has no claim over this former public building as reinvented as a financial centre. Yes, the ideal use for it following the Union, as much as to ease the pain as to avoid further embellishment of the whole tawdry spectacle, would have been as a public gallery, as it temporarily became immediately post-1801. Nonetheless, the Bank’s decision to acquire the building as its headquarters lent considerable prestige and a vote of confidence to the city’s most important architectural work – what could have become a neglected embarrassment in the heart of the city. Bearing in mind that the Bank had its own plans for a magnificent headquarters, to be built to the designs of John Soane in a location and style that would make it the most prominent public building in the capital, it is not unreasonable to suggest that the former Parliament House as much reflected the Bank’s own sense of itself and its architectural pretensions, as it proved a convenient and economical solution to its headquarters dilemma in rapidly changing times. The Bank’s further commitment to the site over the following two centuries, including the substantial and highly accomplished adaptions carried out directly for it, further emphasises the institution’s inherent connection to the site as it stands today.

Therefore the Bank of Ireland on College Green in its current incarnation exhibits significant meaning and legibility, as the building’s design directly correlates to its use as a ceremonial headquarters: it is precisely what its occupant wants it to be. By contrast, its conversion to an exhibition space dilutes this prestige – in fact it arguably turns it on its head, as it then becomes about finding an arbitary use for yet another grand old building, rather than the building dictating a use that is commensurate to its status in the city. In many ways, this is why converted former public buildings in other European cities often fail to impart that spark of prestige they once bestowed on the visitor or passer-by. They just become another Acme mothballed grand shell, given the tokenistic treatment of restoration and ‘readable and reversible intervention’ to accommodate the masses clambering over their great steps, fingering their columns and wandering aimlessly about their great halls. Critically in all of this, they become objects for those least interested and least connected to their local value – the tourist – while the citizen for whom the building was once built gets pushed to the sidelines. In effect, what is being proposed for Dublin’s two flagship public buildings – the General Post Office and the Bank of Ireland – is to take them out of the hands of the citizenry, for whom they were built and for whom they provide essential services, and put into the hands of the marketeers of Fáilte Ireland and troops of intensely apathetic Spanish teenagers. As a rule of thumb, the Bank of Ireland should remain as is unless for operational reasons it becomes no longer relevant or viable, or a suitable alternative use ties in with the bank reassessing its options.

There is one solitary alternative use, and one use only, that comes in any way close to appropriately interpreting the intensely tangled collection of baggage that comes with the Bank of Ireland, and that is, as suggested, a City of Dublin Museum. The story of the capital that brought the building into being – there are few better compliments.

@notjim wrote:

@Global Citizen: remains open as what? Banking is the established historic use, it remains a fine bank and, as I said, the way the BoI maintains a slightly pompous and ceremonial atmosphere in the main banking hall is one of the things that does them credit. Why fall in with this silly and senseless populism?

Exhibition center: ha, what is all this stuff that is crying out to be exhibited. What is this perceived lack of fine historic buildings ready for re-use. Look around!

Cap salaries, make bankers sit in stocks in College Green, put people in prison, whatever, just don’t mess up one of the few examples of an historic building being well maintained in a public and historically established use.

Nowhere in my post did I mention exhibition centres or a hint at returning the bank to the state as a means of getting some form of vengeance over its current custodians.

I would simply like to see it become more accessable so that it may be appreciated in greater numbers. Of course the dignity of the building must be maintained to accommodate this. The suggestion that it could be used to house a City of Dublin Museum has the most merit as the building itself played a large part in the history of the city and country as a whole.

The fact that the building remains a bank is in my opinion, the very reason why it is overlooked by so many. People simply see it as another branch of BOI and therefore pass it by as they have no business going in there unless they have a transaction to make.

True, it has been home to the bank for a lot longer than than those it was built to house and the Bank of Ireland have been worthy residents. But it was (is) the first purpose built parliament building in the world and I believe it deserves greater celebration.
Its a shame that thousands walk past it 7 days a week and never see inside the door.

I see its current use as the only economically viable use. The government could not afford to maintain it as a public museum, especially considering the abundance of museums nearby.

As someone who regularly walks though the building for pleasure, rather than business I think it is a sincere pity that the bank has closed the House of Lords entrance, further dulling Westmoreland Street and closing the beautiful entrance rotunda to the public and simply encouraging homeless or some commie or animal rights looney to set up their stall in the doorway.

Yes lauder, fully agreed on that point. The first time I saw the barrier across the corridor, I thought an event was on, the second time okay, an unfortunate coincidence – the third and it became apparent the entire entrance from Westmoreland Street is now permanently sealed off. What on earth is going on? This was once the grandest and most exhilarating processional route in the city, now shamefully closed off to public view. It’s not even as if they’re cutting down on door staff – indeed there seems to be more security personnel than ever now huddled in the lobby outside the Lords chamber. Also agreed on the increasing numbers of exhibitionists taking possession of the Lords entrance. It’s bad enough as it is as a blank frontage without having the entrance sealed off to boot.

On a wider level, Bank of Ireland needs to draw up a management plan for the building. Not only is the majority of the interior in serious need of redecoration, a rationalisation of corporate furniture, signage and mechanical services is also sorely in order. It’s surprising no work was carried out during the boom years. I’d imagine public perception is that Bank of Ireland threw lavish sums at the building during that time, when the opposite is in fact the case – it could even be described as grotty in large part. Indeed, not a cent of major capital funds has been spent on it since the second exterior cleaning of the early 1990s.

The ‘prestigious’ nature of the existing bank use completely passes me by. I detest banks and have always done so, long before the onset of the recent unpleasantness.

@GrahamH wrote:

. . . . . . to accommodate the masses clambering over their great steps, fingering their columns and wandering aimlessly about their great halls. Critically in all of this, they become objects for those least interested and least connected to their local value – the tourist – while the citizen for whom the building was once built gets pushed to the sidelines.

That’s a little bit harsh there Graham. Tourists are very unfairly derided IMO.

OK, maybe the loud-mouth, bloated, perpetually dissatisfied American types that descend from air-conditioned coaches on Nassau Street in chequered trousers could reasonably be gassed en-masse [no offence intended], but the great bulk of the contemporary hoards of European city-breakers are in a different league and they bring with them, in their volume and feed-back, a direct critical analysis of the city, what it has to offer, and the quality of it’s public realm. I see nothing wrong in judging ourselves by the criteria; ‘what does the tourist get from this?’

@GrahamH wrote:

There is one solitary alternative use, and one use only, that comes in any way close to appropriately interpreting the intensely tangled collection of baggage that comes with the Bank of Ireland, and that is, as suggested, a City of Dublin Museum. The story of the capital that brought the building into being – there are few better compliments.

Nobody stamps their authority on a suggestion like Graham, so this could be a runner.

I note PVC’s observations on the labyrinthine nature of the building, but in the context of museum use, that would not necessarily be a negative.

This is the best floor plan I can find. The ‘bank’ interventions, post 1801, were much less comprehensive than originally intended. I’ve marked out Johnston’s cash office in blue and the site of the original House of Commons chamber in yellow. The areas outlined in green are courtyards and open space.

Interesting thread. Its a huge pity that this building is cut off from the city by a wall of yellow and blue buses and speeding cars. Have to agree that this building needs to be opened up for civic use. What an addition a new museum or some other similarly prestigious function would be to Dame Street and to College Green.

Has anyone any pictures of the interior? Or pictures of the John Soane proposal for the Westin site?

Apparently Dublin Bus have ‘re-designed’ their whole network, according to the radio this morning, so we’ll wait and see if reduces or increases the volume of the yellow and blue wall.

a plundered view of Johnson’s Cash-Office ceiling.

And Below, two versions of Soane’s design for the pre-Act-of-Union Bank of Ireland headquarters for the trianglular site bounded by D’Olier St./College St./Westmoreland St.

All very Washington D.C. meets the Winter Palace

Cheers Gunter.

It’s very true the building itself is a warren of small spaces, most of which are very pretty in their own right, the rear courtyard could be fabulous, its a fantastic intimate space that could easily be incorporated into the ‘vibe’ of Foster Place.

@gunter wrote:

All very Washington D.C. meets the Winter Palace

Monticello on protein shakes.

Hey Gunther

Many thanks for posting the pics of Soanes proposed Bank of Ireland. It makes you wistful thinking what a beautiful assembly of building we would have had around College green had it been started a few years earlier!

I am always interested to see proposals that never quite got built. There are a number of famous Victorian examples, but this is one of the few Georgian I can think of. I know its off topic but I always wondered given the expansion of Dublin as a trade centre in the late 1700s, was it ever proposed to construct a purpose built City Hall? As opposed to converting the Royal Exchange.

C

GrahamH’s remarks about tourists are a bit harsh. Tourists provide much of the money which the local people survive on and so should be encouraged, without this money locals may not even have need for a bank!

A pedestrianised plaza at College Green, as suggested in another thread, with the Bank of Ireland building as the focal point as some sort of museum/exhibition centre would be the jewel in the crown of the city. The space created would be enjoyed by both locals and tourists and would allow the building to be appreciated by those in the plaza without a screen of buses. Entrances such as that off Westmoreland Street could be reinstated also.

The renovation costs would be enormous but if cleverly designed to reduce running costs while remain sympathetic to the structure, a museum could possibly be viable. This would be a great addition to Dublin and would be great to see in time for 1916 centenary.

Yes the comments about tourists were a little sweeping (though having worked at the coalface of tourist heritage sites, your eyes get quickly opened to the reality of the game). But the general point is one of reluctance to exclude the populace from the building on a day-to-day basis, rather than any antipathy towards visitors. These buildings were built (or adapted) for patrons’ use while conducting everyday business, exposing one to a fleeting dose of grandiosity – the Georgian equivalent of a swig of L. casei Immunitas for the aesthetically-dependant – as part of daily life. This is a ceremony that has even greater impact in today’s world, and one that should not be erased in a hasty clamour to give a perceived ‘dignity’ to such a building as seen through modern eyes – this is especially true of the Public Office of the GPO. There is little more dignified that a construct serving its intended function.

gunter, agreed in relation to the dubious (and latterly nonexistent) prestige of banks, but the nature of the occupant is not the core point. What I was trying to say is that the building retains an air of prestige because the Bank of Ireland possesses it for that very reason – it wants to command a public presence, make a civic statement, and generally be pretentious about its operations. As such, and with banking in the hierarchical scheme of things pretty tightly woven into modern society, for good or evil, the building on College Green is lent a very special significance in its current role. It is fit for purpose. Its very (what one imagines to be) uneconomic viability is the very reason that it is viable – its extravagance is what lends it such appeal, what makes its design relevant, and what makes its positioning in the city appropriate as it ever was. Realistically speaking, outside of a predictable and enforced State occupancy, there is no other deserved use for this building.

The enormous architectural and heritage value of the building as converted into a bank has always considerably underplayed. Indeed, the majority of the building that stands today is the result of the complex’s lengthy, hugely expensive and extremely accomplished modification for banking use. It is more a bank than a parliament house. The conversion is one of Francis Johnston’s finest works, one that is rarely assessed beyond a haze of politics and nostalgia, or without the usual denigrating stance of the project being one of mere tweaking around the edges. The alteration was an immensely challenging prospect, one that involved the assimilation of the work of four previous architects’ work into a coherent whole, coupled with the over-riding demand of preserving the primacy and design intention of Pearce’s masterpiece. In fact, it is as much what Johnston did not do, amongst ever-heightening calls for bells and whistles Regency embellishment to the existing exterior, as much as what he did do, that is to his immense credit as project architect.

C. P, Curran’s outstanding essay on the conversion of the Parliament House to Bank of Ireland, published in a quarterly Bulletin of the Irish Georgian Society in 1977, remains the leading account on this much-unknown part of the building’s – really the city’s – history. We can directly quote the correspondence of Johnston in due course, but sticking with the decision to build or acquire a new headquarters in the first place, we must look to north of the Liffey to the site of St. Mary’s Abbey, where the Bank of Ireland had established itself in 1783 off East Arran Street. This was still a commercially thriving part of town, though the brick building in which the bank was located was not secure, forcing the institution to look elsewhere as it expanded. The enormous growth in the scale of the bank in the space of two decades, from being located in a modest premises in a secondary part of the city to proposing a bombastic palace on the city’s principal thoroughfare – indeed comprising a city thoroughfare in the case of the Soane proposal – is truly extraordinary, even by Anglo standards.

Tying in with thebig C’s comments above, suggestions were made during the 1780s that the Royal Exchange should be converted into the National Bank, while James Malton advocated in 1786 that the Exchange be moved into the old Custom House which was shortly to be vacated by the new building downstream in 1791, noting: “where I have heard the Bank is intended to be built, a most ineligible site indeed.” The Bank even petitioned the Lord Lieutenant for the grant of ground occupied by the old Custom House and a second time in 1795 – both efforts to no avail. It was because of this intransigence on the part of the State that negotiations were opened with the Wide Streets Commissioners in 1799 regarding the Westmoreland Street site – what Curran describes as the entire site bounded by Westmorland Street, College Street, D’Olier Street and the river – not just to the Fleet Street boundary. The deal fell through for the simple reason that the Wide Streets Commission did not yet own all the land, the majority of which it had purchased from Trinity College. Much of it has already been cleared and enclosed, but as the Commissioners where short of funds to purchase the remaining lands at that point (the war with France having a huge impact on finances, with the Commission already enormously in debt), the Bank finally pulled out of the agreement in 1802. Architect Thomas Sherrard drew up plans for Westmoreland Street in 1799 to include the Bank, with College Street marked out as ‘Bank Street’ (can you imagine how that street sign would be corrupted today?). This is the same year as the Commission’s architect, Henry Aaron Baker, drew up approved elevations for the rest of Westmoreland Street.

Presumably the two drawings above (there are seven Soane designs in total) are what Curran refers to in relation to Bank Street, with a building frontage:

“of 320 feet. For this front Soane prepared two alternative elevations for the new bank, one of 287 feet 6 inches in length and the other of 260 feet; the rest of his building was disposed on the longer sides of the wedge-shaped site about two internal courtyards separated by his central block which consisted of portico, vestibule, hall and a cash office, 90 feet by 60 feet.” “The drawings in some cases are signed and dated and are accompanied by an undated printed sheet tabulating the Bank’s requirements.”

As early as 1801 the Bank was actively considering the Parliament House site as the most practical solution to its needs (not to mention much slimmed down, given the depression in the Dublin economy). A definite proposal was made in March 1802, with the Bank purchasing ground at Foster Place from the Commissioners in May of the same year. In June an Act of Parliament was passed enabling the disposal of the former Parliament House, and on the 27th of August 1803 the Seal of the Corporation was directed to be put to the deed of conveyance, passing the building into the possession of Bank of Ireland.

Thanks for that very imformative post Graham.

Was it the Sherrard design or perhaps an early Baker plan which proposed a collonade along Westmorland St?

Also, in relation to the final proposed site for the Bank, by College Street would that include the large traffic island at the side of Trinity. In other words would the Bank have closely abutted the side of the College?

Bank of Ireland to sell art collection
Saturday, 15 May 2010 07:42
Bank of Ireland is to sell its art collection and put the proceeds towards its community and charitable investment programme.

The bank currently owns 2,000 pieces of art, which is one of the largest collections in the country.

The works, which are valued at €5m, will be sold on the open market.

A spokeswoman for AIB has said the future of its art collection was under review.

A spokeswoman for Anglo Irish Bank said any decision on the future of its collection would be made by its board and management in line with the wishes of the Minister for Finance.

Labour Spokeswoman on Arts Mary Upton said all of the banks’ art collection should be made available to the public.

The proceeds should be taken off the next preference dividend and the collection kept intact if the government will allow BoI to off set the tax benefits of the donations to their charitable programmes; if you had to paint 2,000 walls to cover up the picture staining it could cost close to €5m making this almost a revenue neutral exercise. Barings still has its art collection and they were in a much worse state than BoI and this way the bank could buy the collection which has been carefully assembled over time back when their business plan bears fruit; scattering the collection to the four winds into a very poor art market makes no sense except for the auctioneer who gets the fee.

There is no doubt great anger being directed at the banks at present due to their lending policies but tokinistic gestures such as this are just as short sighted as the lending policies that put them into this position in the first place. Sorting out the BoI balance sheet will hinge on their capital raising which will be billions in scale and in that regard €5m less the costs of repainting the affected walls denuded of their art will be a pittance.

When they say ‘art collection’ . . . .

. . . I don’t know if I’d panic too much about some of this stuff getting dispersed to the four corners .

‘Art’ escaping from the wax museum ‘plus’. Another fine Tourism Dublin enterprise.

Yes, the developments in Foster Place of late are so outrageous they beggar belief. One could not manifestly convey the gombeen mindset that permeates such large swathes of Irish small business thinking any better if one tried – and by association, Irish planning, or rather the apparent complete lack thereof.

An integral element of the composition and setting of the nation’s pre-eminent classical building, and one of the city’s finest historic enclaves, is comandeered by paddywhackery of the worst order, and not so much as a whimper from the planning authority! Indeed it even receives national attention over a preposterous media stunt involving the Minister for Tourism who (only too rightly) failed to attend its opening on multiple occasions, and still nothing! Every last scrap of the above muck, along with associated trashy blue lights which have been erected by the same private enterprise on all of the publically owned trees of Foster Place, demands immediate removal.

Could somebody please give us some hope that there are people in charge in this city. The recent addition of even more licenced taxi spaces on the street by the public authority merely adds insult to injury, while the insertion of a parking meter into the west portico of the bank is truly the icing on the cake.

That W sign over the door case is truely shocking and the bloke on the right looks like he is urinating; the WAX letters are clearly a trip hazard on a public footpath.

Someone should complain….

Dublin Tourism get €900,000 per annum from DCC, some of which they are now spending on other illegal advertising at their own listed premises – see shopfront race to bottom thread, snap by smithfield resi.

Hence DCC is collecting rates from compliant owners to effectively subsidise cheapening illegal developments dumbing-down and degrading the city centre.

The Dublin Tourism website itself is also a good laugh; first option available in the left hand side is for visitors to go “Beyond Dublin”. Clearly DT have a real commitment to this city if the first thing they can do is direct business away from the capital :rolleyes:
… not that tourists will really want to stick about if the treatment of our most important buildings is of the standard seen now in Foster Place or DT’s own HQ at Andrew Street.

By the way DCC have themselves gone to great effort to erect brown directional signs for tourists promoting the Foster Place Disgrace – as can be seen at Beckett Bridge, Suffolk Street and elsewhere.

Great to see what the taxes grabbed from other private businesses are being spent on.

When the last intelligent person leaves Dublin, can they please turn out the lights 😡

@PVC King wrote:

That W sign over the door case is truely shocking and the bloke on the right looks like he is urinating; the WAX letters are clearly a trip hazard on a public footpath.

Someone should complain….

I have heard that the matter was 6 months ago raised with senior executive DCC officials responsible for this area – yet nothing was done

How much are DCC senior execs paid p.a. again – €150,000 – €210,000 + expenses if I am not mistaken.

It is hard for me to understand why people are being paid telephone-figure salaries for jobs that they simply are not doing 😡

They’re probably as browned off writing letters as you are,. What we need is a small hit-squad to drive around in a big van with a set of ladders and just seize and impound all the illegal signage where ever its found and then charge the bastards for storing it, or donate it to IMMA to turn into an ‘installation’ as a commentary on urban degradation.

What’s wrong with that?

DCC is collecting rates from compliant owners to effectively subsidise cheapening illegal developments dumbing-down and degrading the city centre.

Interesting way to put it…

By the way – I think John Tierney is still on the board of Dublin Tourism.

What we need is a small hit-squad to drive around in a big van with a set of ladders and just seize and impound all the illegal signage where ever its found and then charge the bastards for storing it, or donate it to IMMA to turn into an ‘installation’ as a commentary on urban degradation.

What’s wrong with that?

I’m working on it..(really)

As it stands at the moment, removal could be construed as illegal. I’m working on a way to get a volunteer group authorised. There is precedent, apparantly IPA used to remove ‘other’ postering.

If you are wondering what the legal position is Wicklow CC have an excellent policy document. linkage

Anyone interested in forming a ‘hit-squad’ once I have this sorted from a legal standpoint, drop me a PM..

@gunter wrote:

They’re probably as browned off writing letters as you are,. What we need is a small hit-squad to drive around in a big van with a set of ladders and just seize and impound all the illegal signage where ever its found and then charge the bastards for storing it, or donate it to IMMA to turn into an ‘installation’ as a commentary on urban degradation.

What’s wrong with that?

While you’re at it could you get a few more erm ‘hardcore’ elements to join this proposed possee armed with chainsaws and angle grinders as well to take out the trees and pole clutter around town

@tommyt wrote:

While you’re at it could you get a few more erm ‘hardcore’ elements to join this proposed possee armed with chainsaws and angle grinders as well to take out the trees and pole clutter around town

You mean; invite the chair of the poles+trees sub-committee onto the direct-action task force?

Tommy, Tommy, you’re jumping the gun there, that can only be done if you put down a special motion at the annual congress, or if you give due notice of the intention to convene an egm, assuming that there is a quorum of affilliated members to approve such action and, as you know, either way the motion can be defeated by a simple majority if the membership decide that such action is beyond the remit approved by the special orders that sanctioned the direct action in the first place, and provided that the covenants that restrict the usage of the van can be set aside under the provisions of the collateral terms inserted into the draft new modus operandi which, as you know is still a policy document, having failed to pass congress last year with the required two-thirds majority.

Obviously, either way, the whole thing is still subject to approval by the legal sub-committee and any ammendments proposed by them will have to be submitted for a full vote of the governing body, because, as you know, it’ll be our wrists that’ll be slapped if something goes horribly wrong.

That’s the way to get things done around here.

OMG, that “advertising” of the wax Museum is simply shocking.

I beileve that several years ago, this building housed a Museum of Irish Banking….how appropriate, but its a pity some of the bankers didn’t spend more time there studying some of the bubbles of the past!!:))

I remember there was a proposal to transform the Foster Place frontage into the entrance to a Milan style Galleria leading to Fleet St. Obviously, that would entail alot of remodeling! I am assuming that the interiors are quite good?

Overall, for such a nice location and building, I can’t help wondering is there a more appropriate use then a Wax Museum?

C

You could try and Arts Centre provided good quality entertainment coupled with a trip of the House of Lords…

@hutton wrote:

By the way DCC have themselves gone to great effort to erect brown directional signs for tourists promoting the Foster Place Disgrace – as can be seen at Beckett Bridge, Suffolk Street and elsewhere.

These signs are everywhere. I must have counted about 30 so far…just for the “National” Wax Museum +. There are four on College Green alone. One of the more interesting ones is on the new Beckett Bridge. It was literally erected within days of the bridge opening. I must say finding the NWM+ is my main priority when crossing the Beckett Bridge.

How does the process for these work. Anyone? I presume a licence and fee is required. Do DCC make and install the signage or as seems more likely does a free for all ensue.

The whole thing makes a mockery of the soon to be installed “wayfinding” signage on College Green and elsewhere. There is a vague promise to remove brown finger signage as wayfinding comes on-stream. Lets not hold our breath. I am waiting for the pic of a new wayfinder sign with a brown finger sign attached. 😡

@StephenC wrote:

The whole thing makes a mockery of the soon to be installed “wayfinding” signage on College Green and elsewhere. .

Any more details on these new signs Stephen?

@stephenc wrote:

you Could Try And Arts Centre Provided Good Quality Entertainment Coupled With A Trip Of The House Of Lords…

+ 1

my spelling is atrocious.

Wayfinder is on the way. I saw the map of proposed locations at the recent Designing Dublin expo but it was too small to make out clearly. Seems a good spread. Of course the map is probably “commercially sensitive” and not on DCC website that I can see.

I haven’t seen any more units, bar the one on Barnardo Square (you all know that, right?)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0514/1224296946151.html

RIAI should get involved quickly to rope this one off for someone local – would be an amazing commission for Irish architects!

I think the government need to be very careful; they need to avoid a perception that the Irish state got prefential treatment from other creditors; if the state wants to acquire 2 College Green they should zone it cultural use; it has no future in its current use in the context of emerging markets dicatating energy costs.

Have a valuation done and CPO it; whilst the site would be extremely valuable as a cleared site; thankfully it is not cleared and contains Grattans Parliment; with a cultural use zoning and spot listing that expressly prohibits a conversion to anything of any value such as hotel; it would be entirely possible to prove that such a buillding has a signifiant negative value in financial terms. The time to act is now before values recover; one can never confuse financial and cultural value but when either dips it is always good to take advantage with the long term in mind… For what its worth I wouldn’t spend anything on this building other than a soft strip of bank counters added in recent decades and repaving the carpark in to a pedestrian space

If no action is taken this will end up as a hotel or nightclub and either use will over decades of unauthorised alterations and playing of the grey areas by occupiers see the special little details destroyed.

I don’t know about the merits of the proposal as an accountancy exercise, but I would support the idea that this great parliament building be taken back by the successors of the parliamentarians that shamefully gave it away.

Notwithstanding its longer heritage as a bank headquarters than as a parliament house and the excellent stewardship of the building that the B. of I. have maintained over the last two hundred and ten years, the building has always been bigger than its present use as a bank and the bank will always have known that this day was coming.

In general I think the idea of transforming the building into a museum is a better idea than attempting to shoehorn a modern parliamentary function back into it, however tempting that might be. Whether some kind of themed ‘literature’ museum is big enough of an idea for this particular building is something that I would think is open to question.

The alternative notion of creating a ‘Dublin City Museum’ is one that I would strongly support, but again, this is a national building and any museum function inserted into it should properly be national in character.

The concept of a Museum of the 18th Century is one that appeals to me. A number of cities, like Venice and Brussels, have begun to take that different approach recently to museum categorisation and created exactly that, a Museum of the 18th century, although, as I understand it, these institutions are largely focused on the material and cultural output of that particular century.

In our case, the 18th century – if we use the historians definition of the ‘Long Eighteenth Century’ as being roughly 1689 – 1830 – is undoubtedly one of the most critical period in the story of the nation, and of the capital city. As well as celebrating the cultural and material achievements of that century, an Irish Museum of the 18th Century, located in a building like the old Parliament House, could uniquely shine a light on the tortuous social and political history of the country in the actual building where these matters were debated in real time.

All the big names strode these halls and galleries, Grattan, Tone, and Emmet etc., either as leading participants or as critical on-lookers. An Irish Museum of the 18th Century could tell this story, and the story of war and penal laws, and the story of the immigration that followed plantation, and the story of the refugee communities; the Huguenots and the Palatines, and of the dissenter communities, the Presbyterians who were central to the formation of republican views and the Quakers who were central to the development of industrial Dublin. One or two open-to-the-public Georgian town houses and the odd exhibition in Collins’ Barracks can’t begin to tell this story, but a one great dedicated museum could.

Literature could still have a couple of rooms, music too, architecture is omnipresent in the place, although there’d obviously need to be a Dutch Billy wing as a counterpoint to the overwhelming atmosphere of Palladianism. There are even plenty of little courtyards for state coaches, sedan chairs and the like.

It is true that museums are tourist attractions for sure and that is not to be denigrated but, first and foremost, our museums affirm who we are and who-we-are has its roots in the 18th century probably more than any other period in our history.

On one level, this was the century when a deep sense of injustice began to ferment alongside new ideas of liberty and equality and merge into a notion of nationhood and, on another level; this was the century when we got hold of the seductive idea of building ostentatious one-off houses in the countryside.

I think we both know which has been the more enduring legacy.

If this were converted into a new home for the Dail, and College Green pedestrianized, it would restore the building’s historic use, and reaffirm College Green’s status as the very core of Dublin. It would also enable Leinster Square to be opened up, and the entire complex of Leinster House, the National Museum, and the National Gallery to be combined into one super cultural attraction which would have a weight of importance those institutions don’t possess separately.

I like the idea of converting the College green site into an 18th Century Museum. When the bank took possession of the structure in the early 1800’s, they architecturally vandalised it with the addition of curtain walls which neglects Pearce’s emphasis on ‘projecting’ wings. The building also originally had a dome, which I believe a fire destroyed (?), i don’t know the full story on this matter. I think if it were to be converted into a museum, it would be marvelous to re-construct the dome (This would be a token to the talent of Edward Lovett Pearce). All work should be carried out by Irish architects and engineers, back in the 1700’s William Connelly ,the speaker of the Irish House of Commons and the man who suggested the construction of a new parliament building, strongly believed Irish craftsmen had the skill and ability to carry out wonders. This is apparent at Castletown House, where Connelly only used Irish Materials and Irish craftsmen.

I took a brief tour of the building recently. Bar the house of lords and the banking hall, much of the interior is of a rather poor standard. The back offices are particularly badly designed and of no real value.

So perhaps a new parliament chamber would work with Leinster House functioning as the back office. However, I doubt there’s the money to that.

Alternatively I would like to see if we could arrange something with the British Museum.

The BM is based on the old parliament facade so there’s a great link. Also much of the exhibits in the British museum were acquired while Ireland was a kingdom of the Empire. So arguably the Irish people played a large part in creating the BM. So perhaps the old parliament could host exhibits from the BM, as well as touring exhibits such as the recent Terracotta Warriors exhibition. I am sure the BM has a large overflow they would mind lending.

It would also tie in with the 18th century idea and a museum for Dublin city.

Of course I failed to mention that given the destruction wrought on Leinster House, especially the court yard and lawn, I wouldn’t dare allow the TD’s get their hands on the building. They would probably knock the curtain walls to fit some cars in and then build a pencil shop on college green.

The whole House of Commons chamber was dismantled by the bank, as a condition of the sale in 1801, I imagine that’s why the interior [other than the cash hall and the House of Lords] now looks like a carve up.

On the British Museum lending out stuff, you might want to check in with the Greeks on that one, see how it’s going with them getting their marbles back.

Its amazing how poorly BOI have maintained the building. While the banking hall is fine areas like the trinity branch are in a pretty poor state with peeling paint etc.

The building is crying out to be used as a museum for Dublin but where will the funding come from for that?

Heard a very good idea today. Turn the building into the central city library. This could actually work without huge alteration and would allow everyone to benefit. Part could also be still used for a city museum.

How great would it be to sit in a reading room that was formally a house of lords.

library is a great idea

I think a single Irish architecture live studio in one space would not hurt.

Thanks for joining these threads.

Looking back at my old posts I am still very curious about this building. Does anyone have any photos are the interior courtyards? What is behind the curtain walls? I would love to know what is in the large space behind the door on Foster Place. It looks like a large hall of some sort?

Firstly it should be a public building.
The promise of john Rocque’s map of Dublin showing a seamless connection between the public domain and the interior. Also it would allow the space in front to be properly designed as a pedestrian space. And no no squares, leave the street as a street. Perhaps we could also get the “square” in front of the GPO removed as well and return O’Connell Street to a street.
As a public building perhaps there are too many museums though a proper Dublin Civic Museum would be appropriate since the building was the important link between the city and the country and the island and Britain.
It should also have a temporary exhibition space for important visiting expeditions including previewing major projects and ideas.
An alternative perhaps it could be a science museum and look instead to the future.