Citywest : Mansfield’s giant heap of crap

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    • #707295
      Anonymous
      Participant

      It looks like we may well end up with this heap of crap conference centre @ citywest, SDCC are attempting to rezone the site.

      I think I saw plans before showing a giant warehouse with a god awful red brick tacked on front, finished with pvc georgian windows. Please tell me I’m wrong. 🙁

    • #745490
      notjim
      Participant

      o please make him knock it down, please!

    • #745491
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I can assure you that everything possible will be done.

      This is not Citywest, DavyHickey have developed a World class best practice suburban business campus at Citywest, this is a klingon worst practice pastiche shed.

    • #745492
      urbanisto
      Participant

      I suppose if its being rezoned as part of the new Development Plan then it is open to comment from all members of the public but will anyone out there be interested enough to disagree with the Council. I am sure the councillors will vote through the rezoning as there are obvious economic considerations here regardless of whether the actual building is crap or not. A conference centre would be a mojor coup for South Dublin. Can an Bord Pleanala continue to refuse planning permission even after the Develoment Plan has been altered? Can the Government step in and over rule the County Council? Highly unlikely with Martin Cullen at the helm, though interestingly John O’Donoghue who is currently responsible for the national conference centre plan (he’ll be bringing proposals to cabinet ‘shortly’, with the next ‘two months’, soon, etc) is often touted to take over Environment in the coming reshuffle.

    • #745493
      Devin
      Participant

      Yes it can still be refused by Bord Pleanala after the Dev Plan alteration. It’s just a case of the Bord having the balls to refuse it.

      The rezoning just shows you how rife political influence still is in planning. Mansfield is incredibly well-connected (note the only photo available of him for a while was with Leinster House in the background). I’m not blowing An Taisce’s trumpet here but if Ian L. hadn’t made that Article 35 appeal, the Conference centre would be built now & would be creating a car-dependent mess, contributing to the U.S. style edge-city that Dublin is becoming. The government are just not interested in intervening in issues of major planing & development affecting the country like this. And of course the building would be mock-Palladian rubbish.

      Nothing against Saggart, but it’s not the place for a National Conference Centre.

    • #745494
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      CityWest centre gets the green light
      Daniel McConnell

      South Dublin County Council last night voted to allow a €50 million convention centre, previously rejected by An Bord Pleanála, to be built at CityWest in Dublin.

      As part of a special meeting of the council, members voted by 21 to 3 to allow Mr Jim Mansfield, the property’s developer, to conclude construction of the centre, which is already half built.

      Mr Mansfield’s associates, building firm HSS, has had two convictions in relation to planning successfully brought against them by South Dublin County Council.

      Opposing the development, Green Party councillor Mr Fintan McCarthy said that the infrastructure was not in place in the locality to support such a project.

      Councillors speaking in favour of the project said that for the benefit of the county, the previous behaviour of the promoter must be separated from the idea of locating the 600-seat centre in CityWest.

      Speaking at the meeting, Cllr John Hannon (FF) said that the “two issues must be separated”.

      “There is no doubt that people with vested interests from outside the county are trying to influence the vote here. If we as councillors are not going to advocate this project on behalf of the county, then who will,” he said.

      Earlier, the council voted by a clear majority to allow a Brittas-based blacksmith retain his house which had been previously built without planning permission.

      An earlier High Court ruling had ordered that the property of Mr Martin McDonagh be demolished.

      The county planning manager, Mr Ciarán Kennedy, voiced concern that because of this High Court order, any vote to retain the house could be open to future legal challenges.

    • #745495
      vinnyfitz
      Participant

      The chances of ABP refusing a repeat application are next to zero unless new arguments are brough forward. Notwithstanding the inappropriateness of the location the main basis for ABP’s previous refusal was the breach of zoning.

      Appellants would need to come up with strong new arguments now that the Council have buckled under Mansfield’s lobbying.

      I wonder what are the odds that the NRA take a more robust line on the traffic implications this time round?

    • #745496
      kefu
      Participant

      Nor should we ever forget that the Fianna Fail Ardfheis was going on in the abominably disgusting Citywest Hotel even as this illegal monstrosity was first being erected.
      The worst thing about this is that when it’s built – it could scupper plans for a real world-class city conference centre. All the local politicians will be wheeled out saying ‘why do we need a conference centre?’ when we already have this.

    • #745497
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      “DavyHickey have developed a World class best practice suburban business campus at Citywest”

      World Class, apart from lack of pavements, and terrible public transport (the luas feeder bus goes to the square instead of red cow -75 minutes into city centre).

    • #745498
      Rockflanders
      Participant

      Any planning/commercial/tourist/architectural guidelines you can find worth a pinch say that a conferece centre to be of value to the country must be situated in a city centre location at a transport hub.
      This is truly a shame.

    • #745499
      shadow
      Participant

      We might as well tear up all planning guidelines. It seems as if it is a case of build it and planning will come around. How can professionals seriously advise clients of planning standards when they can be rewritten to suit the day, month, year, fashion, bloddymindedness etc…

    • #745500
      GregF
      Participant

      The City West Hotel interior is a right laugh……something ye’d see in Las Vegas…it’s like a themed hotel….with it’s mock eclectic mix of old styles….pastiche in overdrive….classical plastercast statues, fluted columns, chandeliers, oriental rugs and carpets and mawkish gilded paintings….Woo hoo…..yuck! ……and all in the middle of the sticks. Ye’s should check out the Sheldon Hotel on the Kylemore Road in Ballyfermot too…..more of the same but on a smaller scale and in an working class urban setting.

    • #745501
      Anonymous
      Participant

      An Bord must consider the validity of the zoning and I think that it will fail upon that,

    • #745502
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Can they do that?

      The title of this thread is the best, can’t help but laugh every time

    • #745503
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Yes the Bord as the higher authority must consider the validity of the zoning which 99% of the time is well considered by the planners, maybe it is just a formality but nearly all Bord Plenalla decisions make reference to ‘having considered the zoning it is considered to be reasonable’ or something to that effect.

      The rationale behind the rezoning according to Councillor Joe Hannon of FF was ‘if we don’t support the County, who will?’

      Under that rationale it would be very difficult to grant planning permission for an important national facility on the basis of a DIMBY zoning. The previous decision has stated that any decision on the location of the National conference centre would be premature in advance of the National Conference Centre Location Study, which has not been published to date. The study is considering three locations none of which include Saggart. It goes without saying that a conference centre of this size would materially compromise the viability of any subsequent and correctly sited conference centre as selected by the current study group.

      In this light it would be very easy for An Bord Plennala to refuse permission for failing to address the prior reasons for refusal, the Councillors in SDCC have made fools of themselves, particularly Joe Hannon I have never heard such a pathetic reasoning in all my life.

    • #745504
      Lotts
      Participant

      If it goes ahead it will certaintly illustrate the need to get some of the most experienced private planning consultants (such as the former county manager) onto your pay-roll. There’s a lesson to be learn here for anyone attempting a development of this scale. And I guess it’s to not bother spending too much on architects and instead spend the cash on people who understand the planning process…

    • #745505
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Lotts wrote:

      If it goes ahead it will certaintly illustrate the need to get some of the most experienced private planning consultants (such as the former county manager) onto your pay-roll. There’s a lesson to be learn here for anyone attempting a development of this scale. And I guess it’s to not bother spending too much on architects and instead spend the cash on people who understand the planning process…

      More like people who know how to subvert the planning process as contained within the development plans as written by professional planners.

      If this gets built it will be Quarryvale all over again, except that 50+ illegal developments have occured before the Frank Dunlop school of planning was drawn upon.

    • #745506
      emf
      Participant

      @Graham Hickey wrote:

      Can they do that?

      The title of this thread is the best, can’t help but laugh every time

      I love it too, always have a chuckle everytime I see it!,

      It sums the situation up perfectly!

    • #745507
      GrahamH
      Participant

      From today’s Times:

      Developer Jim Mansfield yesterday revealed revised plans for his controversial convention centre at City West on the outskirts of the capital located next to his flagship 4 star, 725 bedroom City West Hotel. Describing the design for the centre as “innovative and unique”, the developer settled upon a hybrid of styles, with influences ranging from the French Baroque the Palace of Versailles to The Great Hall of the People in Tiananmen Square.

      However the conference centre is but one element of a much larger scheme which was unveiled with great pomp and ceremony in City West yesterday.

      Most controversial is a landmark 13 storey office tower planned adjacent to the centre which An Taisce have announced they intend to object to, describing its height as “excessive”. They also characterise the design of the structure as “gimmicky” and “utilitarian”, in particular citing the use of grey concrete as cladding for the tower which they claim is out of character with the established vernacular of yellow ABS plastic brick. Complete with roof-top air conditioning plants and associated ancillary services, the tower rises to some 49m, just 11m short of Liberty Hall according to an An Taisce spokesperson, adding, “It is arrogant in the extreme”.

      A 20,000 space multi-storey car park is also planned, which by established convention in Ireland is actually larger than the conference centre itself. This is expected to be the primary attraction of the whole complex and hence will be fitted out to the highest standards.

      The other flagship element to the scheme is a sports and leisure complex next to the centre which can be converted to accommodate larger displays and exhibitions. By virtue of the international clients expected to be attracted to the centre, it was decided an architect would be needed for this phase of the project.

      A striking piece of contemporary architecture, it makes use of an innovative structural steel system developed in Sweden and features the largest unsupported roof-span in Ireland. However Mr Mansfield does concede that unlike the hotel, it may not be ‘everyone’s cup of tea’.

      Although yet to be built, a proposed Luas line is included in the plans running along the eastern side of the site. The developer is confident that the line will be under construction by the time the complex opens. It is planned to arrive at the site by running down the median of the M50. An ambitious high density, high rise, two storey apartment development is proposed next to the line. It is difficult to anticipate how the Irish market will react to this radical new form of living.

      Finally an exotic new main street entitled ‘Palm Drive’ is planned for the complex, lined with offices and apartments. There is expected to be high demand as Spar, Centra, Super Valu and Mace have already snapped up all retail units in the development.

    • #745508
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Sorry – couldn’t resist when I saw that yellow building 😀

    • #745509
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      ROFL – this is a joke right?

    • #745510
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Maybe…

      (min 12 characters)

    • #745511
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Gubu Gubu Gubu

    • #745512
      Jack White
      Participant
      Graham Hickey wrote:
      From today&#8217]

      I love it ‘A hybred of styles’

      In other words it will be as embarrasing as the Four Seasons Hotel which has not done done well and is converting rooms into private apartments.

      ‘it was decided that an architect would be needed for this phase of the project’

      So Ireland is to get a thirteen storey tower that was not designed by a trained professional, I wonder did he design it himself?

      ‘it may not be everyones cup of tea’

      An admission if ever I heard one that it is embarrassing

      ‘as Spar, Centra, Super Value and Mace have already snapped up all retailunits in the scheme’

      Serious retail players

      Graham, is the lego reference yours or did it come attached?

    • #745513
      Anonymous
      Participant

      This would be the biggest joke in years if the Local Authority didn’t support it, I think I heard of planning application in Saggart that was turned down on the basis of the engineers assessment that there wasn’t sufficient water capacity for a much scheme, in that case South Dublin gave permission but An Board Pleannalla turned it down.

      I agree with Diaspora this isn’t Citywest this is Saggart and I checked on platform11 there is no planned Luas line to Saggart and certainly not one going down the middle of the M50, the road to Cork & Limerick is actually called the N7, or did he think that he would benefit from the M50 upgrade?

      This is just as ridiculous as that theme park a few years ago proposed for Lusk

    • #745514
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Graham Hickey wrote:

      From today&#8217]http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~tbp/Pictures/2003/Lego/Pictures/ME_Addition_South.jpg[/IMG]

      However the conference centre is but one element of a much larger scheme which was unveiled with great pomp and ceremony in City West yesterday.

      Most controversial is a landmark 13 storey office tower planned adjacent to the centre which An Taisce have announced they intend to object to, describing its height as “excessive”. They also characterise the design of the structure as “gimmicky” and “utilitarian”, in particular citing the use of grey concrete as cladding for the tower which they claim is out of character with the established vernacular of yellow ABS plastic brick. Complete with roof-top air conditioning plants and associated ancillary services, the tower rises to some 49m, just 11m short of Liberty Hall according to an An Taisce spokesperson, adding, “It is arrogant in the extreme”.

      A 20,000 space multi-storey car park is also planned, which by established convention in Ireland is actually larger than the conference centre itself. This is expected to be the primary attraction of the whole complex and hence will be fitted out to the highest standards.

      The other flagship element to the scheme is a sports and leisure complex next to the centre which can be converted to accommodate larger displays and exhibitions. By virtue of the international clients expected to be attracted to the centre, it was decided an architect would be needed for this phase of the project.

      A striking piece of contemporary architecture, it makes use of an innovative structural steel system developed in Sweden and features the largest unsupported roof-span in Ireland. However Mr Mansfield does concede that unlike the hotel, it may not be ‘everyone’s cup of tea’.

      Although yet to be built, a proposed Luas line is included in the plans running along the eastern side of the site. The developer is confident that the line will be under construction by the time the complex opens. It is planned to arrive at the site by running down the median of the M50. An ambitious high density, high rise, two storey apartment development is proposed next to the line. It is difficult to anticipate how the Irish market will react to this radical new form of living.

      Finally an exotic new main street entitled ‘Palm Drive’ is planned for the complex, lined with offices and apartments. There is expected to be high demand as Spar, Centra, Super Valu and Mace have already snapped up all retail units in the development.

      Well as you can see from the last image it has the required number of PVC windows it therefore must have been designed by an award winning architect who is a total fuss pot when it comes to material selection. I nominate this entire complex for the Stirling prize. Although the helmets will have to come off the models for the brochures.

    • #745515
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Paul Clerkin wrote:

      this is a joke right?

      Who is advising Jim Mansfield, this is going to go to an oral hearing, I don’t know where to start, the 20,000 cars going onto a country lane, a 13 storey office block with plant hanging off it designed by a non-architect, the design quality of the conference centre with a metal deck roof. There is no Luas line announced for Citywest let alone Saggart.

      I think John O’Donaghue needs to publish the report into the location of the conference centre he commissioned last year, as much as Dublin needs a conference centre this most certainly is not it. There was at least some merit in the Treasury proposal in Spencer Dock in 2000 inso much as the conference centre element was stunning and they have gone on to do some excellent work since, but this, there isn’t one element you can point to and say that it has any redeeming features.

      Even the model is made from lego, I’m amazed he didn’t get a lego monorail trainset just for effect

    • #745516
      sw101
      Participant

      nice one, graham.

    • #745517
      Dubliner
      Participant

      Is this some kind of joke?

    • #745518
      sw101
      Participant

      what do you reckon?

    • #745519
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Oh for crying out loud – I didn’t think it would be necessary but clearly another of Andrew Duffy’s !!!JOKE ALERT!!! (s) is required!

      Hope you appreciate it – took me 5 weeks to build that 😀

      Well no, whereas I must admit to being one of the biggest Lego fans of all time, I gave up the old Lego building and train-set-round-the-bed quite a few years ago – although theree’s still a few bits and pieces about…

      My favourite part is the multi-storey car park with the little cars trundling about on top 🙂
      And the one with the kid attending the champagne-fuelled unveiling.

      Here’s a close-up of the tower block – don’t know what AT are on about, I think it’s a rather striking piece of contemporary design – elements of Le Corbusier to it…

    • #745520
      sw101
      Participant
    • #745521
      KarenS
      Participant

      brilliant!

    • #745522
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Graham Hickey wrote:

      Oh for crying out loud – I didn’t think it would be necessary but clearly another of Andrew Duffy’s !!!JOKE ALERT!!! (s) is required!

      Hope you appreciate it – took me 5 weeks to build that 😀

      I think you should have put a warning on it, it is Sir Jim Mansfield we are talking about!!!!

      No seriously fair play and I do expect to see this thread resurrected before too long when the Palace of Versailles meets Park West Industrial Estate.

    • #745523
      GregF
      Participant

      Ha Ha ….good one Graham 🙂 …….. (Legoland definitely sums up Mansfield’s plan)

    • #745524
      MT
      Participant

      LOL very good indeed. You’ll be getting a call from Private Eye very shortly.

    • #745525
      GrahamH
      Participant

      I am genuinely astounded that so many people thought this had any hint of credibility, don’t know whether to be sick with laughter or be thoroughly depressed (although the former has taken place regardless :D). Never even crossed my mind that it would be taken at face value!
      @Paul Clerkin wrote:

      ROFL – this is a joke right?

      …he says with a quiver in his voice 🙂 – and this from the Master Prankster himself!

      I mean really – is this what we have come to expect of developers in this country, have things really sunk so low?
      Has people’s estimation of Irish planning hit rock bottom or is it just that of Mansfield?
      Admittedly I’d probably have at least fallen for the sports centre anyway – but the palatial conference centre – with a Ming Dynasty roof?!

    • #745526
      sw101
      Participant

      careful, you could have the legal in here, shutting us down for slander.

    • #745527
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Good as gone 🙂

    • #745528
      sw101
      Participant

      for the record…i think mansfield is super

    • #745529
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      @Graham Hickey wrote:

      I am genuinely astounded that so many people thought this had any hint of credibility, don’t know whether to be sick with laughter or be thoroughly depressed (although the former has taken place regardless :D). Never even crossed my mind that it would be taken at face value!

      …he says with a quiver in his voice 🙂 – and this from the Master Prankster himself!

      I mean really – is this what we have come to expect of developers in this country, have things really sunk so low?
      Has people’s estimation of Irish planning hit rock bottom or is it just that of Mansfield?
      Admittedly I’d probably have at least fallen for the sports centre anyway – but the palatial conference centre – with a Ming Dynasty roof?!

      you see it has all the hallmarks i like to out into a fake news story
      – it plays on your worst fears (in this case buildings designed with lego)
      – it has some basis in fact
      – it is plausible after some recent event (in this case rezoning)

      and finally it is Ireland after all – anything can happen – Fr. Ted was a reality tv show

    • #745530
      GrahamH
      Participant

      I’ll store those tips for future reference…

      Also apologies to AT – easy target and all that. Unfortunate that their nit-pickey objection actually added credibility to the whole thing 🙂

    • #745531
      ro_G
      Participant

      nice one Graham

    • #745532
      Devin
      Participant

      @Graham Hickey wrote:

      Also apologies to AT – easy target and all that. Unfortunate that their nit-pickey objection actually added credibility to the whole thing 🙂

      Yes I liked the residents assoc. style of your an Taisce quotes…….disturbing that some believed it! 😮 🙂

    • #745533
      emf
      Participant

      You really should post a warning before including something as funny as that, I nerly fell off my chair laughing. I’m still getting funny looks as I type this!

      Seriously though, a bit of colour, similar to this Lego creation, might brighten things up out in the drap depressing hole that is City west. If it worked we could Legoise Parkwest and Eastpoint too!! 🙂

    • #745534
      kefu
      Participant

      I don’t know why we’re laughing. That Lego Project is marginally better than what has and is being built out there.

    • #745535
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      its ironic post modern laughing….

    • #745536
      Frank Taylor
      Participant

      This is a very simple question:

      Why is it in the national interest to build a “National Conference Centre”? And what exactly is it?

      Is it just a big building that can accommodate 20,000 people? Is it purely so that hoteliers and restaurateurs can sell more? Is it some kind of national pride issue like having a national “flag carrier “airline? If so will it lose money like other national flagships?

      The RDS can hold something like 5,000. Quantity isn’t everything. I think the world economic forum in Davos is just for 2,000 people yet this must generate a lot of cash and attention for the town.

      If we build it what will be held there? The annual european dentists convention or something?

    • #745537
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Sorry Frank, I have no idea, but on the other hand I just saw Graham HIckey’s Lego models. What a work of absolute genius Graham. It is nearly as good, if not better than ‘Ted Goes to Town’ on Fantasyjack’s site. I particularly liked the guys in helmets standing outside the structure with the large roof span. They reminded me of those depictions of people in artists impressions or photomontages.

    • #745538
      dowlingm
      Participant

      Frank

      conferences are *big* business. Toronto used to get very big money from attracting medical conferences and the like which meant thousands of yanks with US Dollars to spend. SARS has put a huge hole in that business and believe me the city is feeling it. With the new European countries, EU wide conferences are going to have a LOT of punters. Citywest is a stupid place to put it as it is the other side of the city from the airport, through which a lot of the target market will come. Metro Toronto Convention Centre is right downtown – somewhere in the Spencer Dock-O’Connell Street area, near the Metro, Luas, Interconnector, etc. is where any NCC worthy of the name should be located.

    • #745539
      kefu
      Participant

      Frank, it’s in the “national interest” because Ireland is currently losing out on large-scale conferences.
      A relative of mine wanted to bring a big science bash to Ireland but couldn’t because there wasn’t a suitably large venue.
      In general, it brings in a good type of tourist (not stags and hens) and also organisers tend to target off-peak times so there’ll be sufficient accomodation available and at decent prices. As a result, it brings more balance to the tourism industry.
      You also get a lot of follow-up business – the people attending the conference are usually busy and only get a flavour of the city. If they like what they see, they will come back, usually with a family in tow.
      That’s why so many countries will subsidise a loss-making conference centre – it’s the type of investment, which may not in itself make money, but will bring dozens of other tangible benefits.

    • #745540
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @kefu wrote:

      Frank, it’s in the “national interest” because Ireland is currently losing out on large-scale conferences.
      A relative of mine wanted to bring a big science bash to Ireland but couldn’t because there wasn’t a suitably large venue. .

      I presume your relative considered the Green Glens Arena in Millstreet as it is technically large enough to accomodate a large gathering]In general, it brings in a good type of tourist (not stags and hens) and also organisers tend to target off-peak times so there’ll be sufficient accomodation available and at decent prices. As a result, it brings more balance to the tourism industry.
      You also get a lot of follow-up business – the people attending the conference are usually busy and only get a flavour of the city. If they like what they see, they will come back, usually with a family in tow.
      That’s why so many countries will subsidise a loss-making conference centre – it’s the type of investment, which may not in itself make money, but will bring dozens of other tangible benefits.[/QUOTE]

      I totally agree with this, I have often found that freinds will go to a conference have a great time in the host City and then their partner feeling a little left out will persaude them to return to the host City together.
      I don’t however feel that a massive edge city hotel and conference centre would have suffcient vibrancy or character to draw people back except in a case of the same conference returning and that is not what could be described as a spin off.

    • #745541
      kefu
      Participant

      I’ve always believed that the conference centre should be in the middle of the city centre, be it at the Spencer Dock site or something similar.
      I think Mansfield’s monstrosity should be razed to the ground. I think foreign visitors coming to Ireland for conferences who end up waiting an hour trying to exit the M50 at the Red Cow Roundabout en route to Citywest will not be return visitors.
      I don’t think they will have a favourable recollection of Ireland.
      I would not be against an out-of-town solution per se, something along the lines of a conference village. But it would have to be within the bounds of the M50, on a train/LUAS/DART line and should not be more than twenty minutes from the city centre.

    • #745542
      Rockflanders
      Participant

      Alexandra Dock is a much more exciting location than Spencer Dock and definitely than Mansfielsds in my opinion.

    • #745543
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Rockflanders wrote:

      Alexandra Dock is a much more exciting location than Spencer Dock and definitely than Mansfielsds in my opinion.

      Alexandra Dock???

      Do you mean The Alexandra Basin in Dublin Port?

    • #745544
      Rockflanders
      Participant

      The favourite in the current conference centre competition being run by the government is the one at Alexandra Dock. There was an editorial in the times a few weeks ago and i remember an article mentioning some questions that John o Donoghue answered in the Dail about it. Same architect as did the Conference Centre in hong kong.

    • #745545
      JPD
      Participant

      That sounds like Spencer Dock, does anyone have a link to any of the other proposals or will it be Spencer Dock or Mansfields giant legoland?

    • #745546
      Papworth
      Participant

      I see in yesterday’s Indo that Harry Crosbie is not happy with the architectural merits or function of the proposed Barn at City West – good old Harry suddenly getting an interest in Architecture and its function !!

    • #745547
      jackscout
      Participant

      Harry & co at the Point are one of only two objects to the retention and completion of that mass od Sh!te according to SDCC web site which a decision is due today… It will properly take An Borfd Pleanala to refuse the development.

    • #745548
      Rockflanders
      Participant

      @JPD wrote:

      That sounds like Spencer Dock, does anyone have a link to any of the other proposals or will it be Spencer Dock or Mansfields giant legoland?

      Doesnt sound much like Spencer Dock to me. Different spelling for starters.

    • #745549
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Rockflanders,

      Alexandra Dock is in Belfast, there are only three Alexandras in the Docklands namely, Road, Dock and Basin and are central to the operation of Dublin Port.

      In other News

      Walls of Legoland shudder as children go electronic
      James Fitzgerald Clare MacCarthy in Copenhagen

      http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2005/0407/707140056HM1LEGO.html

      It has kept about 300 million children amused worldwide since it first appeared 73 years ago. But it seems the simple appeal of Lego is being threatened by the world of computer games and MP3 players.

      The Danish toymaker behind the famous building blocks yesterday posted its biggest ever annual loss as it struggles to compete with cheap toys from China, the weakening dollar and young children’s growing obsession with electronic gismos and mobile phones.

      The 2004 net loss of €255 million was more than double the loss the previous year.

      Revenues, which slumped 7 per cent, were additionally hit by demands for heavy discounts from major grocery chains which have increased their share of the retail toy market at the expense of specialist stores.

      Lego said that last year the global market for traditional toys shrank by about 2 per cent while the market for electronic toys, such as video consoles and computer games, enjoyed a minor increase.

      But in the toymaker’s battle for children’s pocket money the biggest hurdle last year was youngsters’ increasingly adult tastes.

      Lego chief executive Jorgen Vig Knudstorp was optimistic, however, on future prospects despite the difficulties of 2004.

      He said that the toymaker had cut costs as a result of increased competitiveness and by sharpening its focus on core products. The toymaker made no statement about its progress on finding a buyer for its theme parks, a divestment it announced last year. Visitor numbers to the four Legoland parks in Denmark, the UK, Germany and the US rose 3 per cent in 2004, but the unit’s profits after tax fell 26 per cent to €2.7 million.

      Still a family-run company, it started out small. In 1932, a carpenter named Ole Kirk Christiansen and his 12-year-old son, Godtfred, started making toys in the town of Billund, Denmark.

      They decided that a good name for their company would be Lego, which means “play well” in Danish and also, they discovered, happens to mean “put together” in Latin.

      When plastic became available after the second World War, Lego introduced plastic toys and bricks.

      The international Lego group is now worldwide, and is run by Kjeld Kirk Kristiansen, Ole Kirk Christiansen’s grandson.

    • #745550
      Gaudi
      Participant

      Only 2 contenders seem to be left for the National Conference Centre (NCC) proposal, both in the north docks. See below from Ireland.com on the 19th March:

      The Michael McNamara group has withdrawn from the competition to build the National Conference Centre, leaving just two contenders in the race for the huge development project.

      The deadline for tenders was yesterday, but following consultation with the two remaining interested parties, the Spencer Dock consortium and the Anna Livia consortium, the deadline has been extended to April 22nd.

      The Office of Public Works (OPW), which is handling procurement up to the tendering stage, received a letter from the McNamara group stating it was withdrawing

      The final decision on the huge project will be made by the OPW in conjunction with the Department of Arts, Sports and Tourism. The Government is likely to sign off on whoever is awarded the contract.

      While the conference centre itself is expected to be a loss-making venture, the lands surrounding the centre will become hugely attractive in terms of retail and office development.

      In December 2004, the Government sought tenders from the three consortiums that had been shortlisted by the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism.

      The group, led by construction firm Michael McNamara and the Leopardstown Club Consortium, wanted to build the centre on land owned by Horse Racing Ireland, adjacent to the Carrickmines end of the Leopardstown Racecourse.

      The McNamara construction group is one of the largest such groups in the State. It is run by Bernard McNamara, one of the investors behind the recent purchase of the Superquinn group.

      The Anna Livia Consortium, led by Bennett Construction, is proposing to build the centre on a site close to the Point Depot and the Port Tunnel, in the Dublin docklands. The site is owned by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority.

      The Spencer Dock International Conference Centre Consortium is led by Treasury Holdings and proposes building the centre on Spencer Dock.

      Under the latest version of the plan, the 2,000-seat centre is to be built by 2007. The Irish Hotels Federation has said the centre could attract up to 50,000 extra visitors and generate business worth €60 million annually.

      It is 15 years since the proposal for such a centre was first made and 10 years since an attempt to build one through public/private partnership ended in failure. Five years ago plans for a centre were abandoned when An Bord Pleanála rejected a scheme involving associated high-rise developments.

      The Hotels’ Federation believes the lack of such a centre puts Ireland at a serious disadvantage. The Dublin City Centre Business Association said the delay in building the centre was hurting Dublin’s economy “day by day”.

    • #745551
      Rockflanders
      Participant

      @Thomond Park wrote:

      Rockflanders,

      Alexandra Dock is in Belfast, there are only three Alexandras in the Docklands namely, Road, Dock and Basin and are central to the operation of Dublin Port.

      .

      Not much consistency in that. Alexandra Dock is indeed in Dublin and is the proposed site for the Conference Centre. Last waterfront site in Dublin in fact. Gaudi, there was an editorial in the Times as well I remember reading which seemed to be more accurate. The extract you wrote has been reprinted for the last couple of years now. All i do know is that the planning for the Treasury Holdings site at Spencer Dock means that if they dont win the competition the land has to revert to a public park!! That would actually be a lovely feature on the Liffey.

    • #745552
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Rockflanders wrote:

      Not much consistency in that. Alexandra Dock is indeed in Dublin and is the proposed site for the Conference Centre. Last waterfront site in Dublin in fact.

      Sorry I meant to say Alexandra Quay, there is a reference to Alexandra Dry – Dock, which is the only site that I can assume that you are talking about which would lead to a conference centre surrounded on one side by grain stores and the other by ro-ro freight ferries doesn’t exactly appeal plus its a long way from the City Centre and has no public transport existing or proposed and is accessed from Alexandra Road one of the least pedestrian freindly environments in Dublin. Its not a difficult choice between this and Spencer Dock, if only O’Rourke hadn’t interfered we’d have had a NCC in the RDS 5 or 6 years ago.

      What is it in this Country, why can’t we just select a central site and build the damn thing?

    • #745553
      Rockflanders
      Participant

      As far as i know the site is to be accessed from the Roundabout at the East Link, there is a Luas Line going to its door and it is beside the Dublin Port Tunnel. It is 5 mins further from the City Centre than Spencer Dock and has the added advantage of being the same distance from the South City with new bridges being built. It is a bigger site and should be (hopefully) a better building than Roche’s pepper potdesign that is already getting old. If the last developer had built the building when they won the last conference centre competition then we wouldnt be in the situation we are now.

    • #745554
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @RTE Interactive wrote:

      Removal of aerodrome hangars ordered

      19 July 2005 17:50
      Companies under the control of businessman Jim Mansfield were ordered by the High Court today to remove unauthorised developments at Weston Aerodrome in Lucan, Dublin.

      They were also ordered to pay the legal costs of the proceedings to South Dublin County Council.

      In April, the court upheld a claim by the council that the bulk of the development work at the aerodrome was unauthorised except for a wastewater treatment plant.

      The aerodrome was bought by Mr Mansfield for almost €13 million in 2003.

      Today, Mr Justice Liam McKechnie gave Fallowvale Ltd and Weston Ltd three months to comply with his findings.

      He ordered the removal of unauthorised hangars and held that a bungalow in the aerodrome should only be used for residential purposes.

      In relation to two car parks, it was agreed that one of them would be for domestic use but the judge said that tarmacadam should be removed from the second and the area levelled with topsoil.

      Three new complaints by the council were left over for a further court hearing. They relate to a kitchen cafe, the introduction of two portakabins and the alleged widening of the runway.

      Court refuses order

      The court refused to make an order which would have restrained any development on the land unless, and until, planning permission had first been obtained.

      The judge said people have to act lawfully and embark on ventures outside that at their own risk.

      He said there was merit in the council asking for this order but, being utterly generous to the respondents, he declined to make it in the present circumstances.

      Hmmmmmmmmmmm

    • #745555
      Rockflanders
      Participant

      ill give fives that those buildings are still there at christmas. Paddy power is only giving twos…..

    • #745556
      Bill McH
      Participant

      From today’s Independent


      New blow for developer as hotel plan rejected

      ADVERTISEMENT

      MULTI-millionaire property developer Jim Mansfield has been dealt a third blow to his dreams of developing west county Dublin.

      Already in trouble for the unauthorised development of hangars at Weston Aerodrome in Lucan, now Mr Mansfield’s hotel and conference centre scheme at the small airport has been refused planning permission by An Bord Pleanala.

      Last year HSS Ltd, which is a company owned by Mr Mansfield, was fined for beginning work without planning permission on a giant conference centre at City West.

      The latest blow for him comes as An Bord Pleanala upheld a decision by South Dublin County Council to refuse planning permission for a 95-bedroom hotel and a 400-seater conference centre and leisure facility in the grounds of Weston Airport.

      Last February the council refused permission for the construction of a hotel and conference and leisure centre there.

      Mr Mansfield, through HSS/Sean Lucy and Associates Ltd of Mount St Gardens, Mullingar, appealed the refusal from the council, but yesterday the board upheld the decision of the council.

      An Bord Pleanala said it was considered that the proposed development would detract from the character and setting of the protected structure of Weston Park House.

      Lorna Reid



      so construction should be starting fairly soon then…… 😀

    • #745557
      urbanisto
      Participant

      Surely the real tragedy here is how unappreciated Jim Mansfields contributions to the urban environment are! Was this a yellow mock Georgian barn as well?

    • #745558
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      Garden Centre Chic.

    • #745559
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Mansfield is ‘fed up’ with aerodrome planning process

      Jim Mansfield, owner of Weston Airport near Lucan in west Co Dublin, has said he is “fed up” with ongoing planning issues at the aerodrome, and may sell a 49 per cent stake in the airport to a group of Irish investors.

      His comments follow the decision by South Dublin County Council to prepare to initiate legal proceedings against him over an alleged widening of the runway, which the businessman has denied.

      Mansfield turned down a €75.6 million offer from US aviation company Piedmont Hawthorne Aviation for a half share stake in Weston less than a month ago. He bought the airport two years ago for about €13 million. “To tell you the truth, if I got enough money, I suppose I would sell a half share. You do get fed up,” Mansfield said last week.

      The businessman, who owns the CityWest hotel and golf resort in west Dublin and Palmerstown House in Co Kildare, said talks “with a group of local people’‘ could be completed within a month, following the planned opening of the Weston Airport terminal building this Saturday.

      He refused to identify the potential suitors, but said they were “big in the region’‘.

      “I would still have a half share in Weston, probably around 51 per cent and a lump of money in my pocket,” he said. Mansfield said the council’s intended legal action was “completely wrong’‘.

      “The width of the runway is determined by two white lines on either side of it. Our runway is 23 metres wide,” he said.

      The two side shoulders of the runway were “purely a safety measure’‘, he said.

      “When we resurfaced the runway we put a light surface on both sides to make it safe. This is purely a safety feature. If a plane went off the runway – which one did once – it could do serious damage to the passengers and the plane, so that’s why it was done.”

      However, in a letter circulated to all members of the local authority’s Lucan Clondalkin Area Committee, the council said: “In April this year, two stone surfaced areas running along both sides of the runway were covered in tarmacadam, resulting in an overall width of 30 metres approximately.”

      The council said the runway shoulders did not have planning permission.

      Dawn Love

      © Sunday Business Post

      Any Thoughts?

    • #745560
      Frank Taylor
      Participant

      After a certain number of years, is it the case that everything still standing without planning permission won’t be knocked down by the state? Has there ever been a case where someone built an illegal structure and is forced to knock it down 10 years later?

    • #745561
      Anonymous
      Participant

      It is not the length of time the structure or works have been illegally in existence that is the issue but the length of time prior to procedings being issued that is the criterion. The legal position is that the Applicant moving the enforcement procedings must have commenced procedings within five years of the illegal works. This time period is bizarely less than the standard statute of limitations of seven years despite the results often having a much more long-term implication.

    • #745562
      Frank Taylor
      Participant

      So if you build a house out of sight from the road and proceedings are not issued for five years afterwards, do you get an automatic right to retention permission?

    • #745563
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Irish Planning Law and Procedure, Galligan, E, 1996 wrote:

      Local Govenment (Planning & <A title="Best development" style="COLOR: #65b45c] 2 I.R. 268

      I’m not sure how many times Mr Mansfield has used this provision but it certainly mid way between two and three digits.

      In answer to your question yes regardless of scale the time limits are set and it relates to completely unsanctioned structures as well as breaches in planning conditions.

    • #745564
      Frank Taylor
      Participant

      Thanks TP. I never knew that.

      I’m off to build some houses in my barn, to be dramatically unveiled in 2010.

    • #745565
      Bill McH
      Participant

      Well now just a minute – do you have planning permission for that barn?

    • #745566
      urbanisto
      Participant

      Aaah sure dont worry about that. Sure isnt Frank a great contributor to the local economy. And sure if he didnt build his barn he might get fed up and take his money somewhere else, like Bangladesh or something. Ill tell you what Frank….heres a few tax incentives and a grant. Why not build the barn as a National Museum of… Dogs or something like that. It would be a great attraction. Really help put the area on the map!

    • #745567
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Frank Taylor wrote:

      I’m off to build some houses in my barn, to be dramatically unveiled in 2010.

      Like the Vodafone mast at that industrial estate in Navan that was found within a chimney.

      😮

    • #745568
      vinnyfitz
      Participant

      Anyone been out to Citywest recently?

      Inside the frame of his illegal, but extant, development George is now erecting – phoenix like – an enormous brick sided, “temporary” structure. A mother of all function rooms in the midst of a pre condemned structure!

    • #745569
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Thomond Park wrote:

      Sorry I meant to say Alexandra Quay, there is a reference to Alexandra Dry – Dock, which is the only site that I can assume that you are talking about which would lead to a conference centre surrounded on one side by grain stores and the other by ro-ro freight ferries doesn’t exactly appeal plus its a long way from the City Centre and has no public transport existing or proposed and is accessed from Alexandra Road one of the least pedestrian freindly environments in Dublin. Its not a difficult choice between this and Spencer Dock, if only O’Rourke hadn’t interfered we’d have had a NCC in the RDS 5 or 6 years ago.

      What is it in this Country, why can’t we just select a central site and build the damn thing?

      Lets hope the Government never has the brain wave of hosting the Olympics! I agree with Thomand Park – I have alluded to it in different ways across a number of different threads. There are genuine problems in the way things are done in Ireland – whether it is the National Aquatic Centre, the completion of the M50, the price and duration of construction of a metro system, the lack of proper road infrastructure of international standard (with the exception of about 20km of M50, or however long it is, a rail link to the airport, a non-Dublin orientated national road and rail network ,etc, etc. Everything takes foru times as long to build as in other countries, costs 10 times as much, causes 40 times as much public controversy and 22.3 times as many tribunals 20 years after its all done. Is it our colonial past? Are we still not used to governing ourselves or are there other issues in the Irish psyche which prevented us from being the Romans or Greeks of the North Atlantic.

    • #745570
      Anonymous
      Participant

      consensus politics, being all things to all people, i.e. being fianna fail …

      pandering to every ‘not in my back yard objection’ with the objective of clinging to power for as long as possible.

      Our Taoiseach is the master of all of this. Rarely do you discover what he actually thinks on any issue.

    • #745571
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I have a deep suspicion that this transcends party political divides. I think it has something fundamental to do with the way we perceive ourselves and our country but I cannot put my finger on exactly what it is. Yes, the ‘not in my back yard lobby’ is one problem but connected to this is maybe a strange perception of scale. Something has to be wrong when any building over 10 stories is invariably described as a skyscraper in news reports and any road wider than a boreen is called a motorway. For Christ sake, even Sofia in Bulgaria (a very poor city) has the semblance of an ungerdround – what is wrong with us. Maybe this is wrothy of a thread on its own – I will start one.

    • #745572
      dowlingm
      Participant

      I suppose Jim M will get whatever he wants now…
      http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10003810.shtml

    • #745573
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      Mansfield gets go-ahead for €50m convention centre at Citywest
      Edel Morgan

      Developer Jim Mansfield has got the green light from South Dublin County Council to complete his controversial €50 million convention centre at Citywest, in Saggart, Co Dublin.

      The council has also granted permission to Mr Mansfield’s company, HSS Ltd, to retain the steel frame and a partial roof of the centre, which were built without planning approval.

      Last year his company was fined €1,750 and ordered to pay costs of almost €30,000 to the council after Tallaght District Court found it had failed to comply with an enforcement order by the council to stop work on the centre.

      An Bord Pleanála subsequently overturned the original planning permission. However, a vote last November by councillors backing completion of the centre paved the way for Mr Mansfield to submit another planning application to continue and retain the development.

      The three-storey convention centre will have a main hall, temporary stage, seating for up to 6,000 people, meeting rooms, a bar, 675 car-parking spaces and a covered walkway to Citywest’s hotel and golf course.

      Citywest already has a 4,000-seater conference centre. One of the conditions of planning permission is that only one of the conference venues can be used at any one time.

    • #745574
      Alek Smart
      Participant

      €31,750…….By God thats gotta be the bargain of the century…….Go Mansfields Go…..Bring back the Aro Land Car I say !!!!!!

    • #745575
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Alek Smart wrote:

      €31,750…….By God thats gotta be the bargain of the century…….Go Mansfields Go…..Bring back the Aro Land Car I say !!!!!!

      The question is what happens next?

    • #745576
      Alek Smart
      Participant

      The diversion of the River Dodder to create a giant ornamental lake and associated waterfall wall encircling the “New” Conference Centre and the renaming of the Facility to reflect this……..Son of Inchydoney………????

    • #745577
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Board Ref. 06S215210 Planning Appeal
      Development Convention Centre with seating for up to 6000 people, 675 no. car parking spaces.
      Citywest Hotel, Saggart, Co. Dublin.
      Planning Authority South Dublin County Council Reg. Ref. SD05A/0086
      Applicant HSS Limited
      Lodged Appellant(s) Status
      23-Nov-2005 The Point Exhibition Company Active
      24-Nov-2005 An Taisce Active
      24-Nov-2005 HSS Limited Active

      Looks like its going another round ….

    • #745578
      GrahamH
      Participant

      Himself will be on the Late Late tonight.

    • #745579
      hutton
      Participant

      @Graham Hickey wrote:

      Himself will be on the Late Late tonight.

      Anybody see it? I missed it as i had other commitments 🙁

    • #745580
      GrahamH
      Participant

      A bit late now, but it was repeated on Monday night as usual.

      Quite the charmer, he went down very well with the audience.
      His planning record was quite vigourously questioned, and on the unauthorised frame of the conference centre he was quite reflective about it all. He retold the story fairly but said little more. He said he’s not in the least concerned about the Spencer Dock National CC, that there’s ample business to go round, and that we could do with 5 or 6 conference centres there’s so much demand. Also the National CC was so long in the pipeline and with so much footdragging that he wasn’t going to wait any longer – which is a fair point from his perspective.

      His planning difficulties at Weston were painted as being essential, relatively minor or relating to proceedure.

    • #745581
      Devin
      Participant

      He said he’s not in the least concerned about the Spencer Dock National CC, that there’s ample business to go round

      God!! The scale of what he wants to do out there is unsustainable by any standards, regardless if more than one big conference would be needed.

      The most interesting thing about the current appeal – as detailed by Thomond Park above – is that the Point Depot are one of the appellants. It shows they still see Mansfield’s plans as a threat to the Point Village/Spencer Dock Conference Centre plans.

      It still seems a bit bizarre that something of major national strategic importance – like where a National Conference Centre is to be located – isn’t being decided at a higher (government) level, but is rather left to a battle between the people who want to build it, or the whim of a planning appeal outcome.

    • #745582
      Anonymous
      Participant

      He will no doubt use the Luas to rebut the original finding by the Bord that this location is deficient in public transport terms;

      I do not consider a one hour Luas journey with potential change at Belgard to be acceptable public transport provision; in the post metro environment which is at least 7 years away the trek to City West will be roughly 1.5 hours from the Airport allowing for a change at O’Connell. The Aircoach would have you in Newry in a similar timeframe.

      It has to be in the City Centre for me as this district already has a large exhibition centre at Punchestown which is a mere 15 minutes away by road

    • #745583
      a boyle
      Participant

      @Thomond Park wrote:

      I do not consider a one hour Luas journey with potential change at Belgard to be acceptable public transport provision

      you absolutely right . it is far from the city . However i am not sure that having one in the city is such a great idea either. i have seen 3 large conference centres in 3 american cities . All of them were redundant within 3/4 years because each one was outdone by a newer larger center. They also added nothing to the areas. When closed they are like empty prisons, large dead space. and when open they add little to the area as noone nearby has any business with the building . Those who do use the center don’t care about the area and are only there for the day.

      If he really wants to build a conference center then let him , they are white elephants best left to the private sector. One built by the government can only dissapoint.

    • #745584
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Yes but this is a very ugly industrial elephant within the curtilage of a protected structure it should therefore be refused and removed; it will also undermine the viability of the SDCC which has all will agree a much greater chance of success

    • #745585
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      A Boyle, I don’t agree with you on convention centres.. Think CNIT in Paris la Defense or Porte Maillot. Many of the bigger US cities e.g. San Francisco have huge hotels that fulfil the role of convention centres. For purpose-designed ones think of Baltimore, Atlanta, Vegas, Boston, Phoenix. All have big conference centres and all are flourishing. Why? Because they are DOWNTOWN, not stuck out in the burbs. A very important part of US convention business is the spouses’ programme and that often determines the destination. Although the annual leave allowance in the US is much shorter than in Europe, it is very normal for a manager to attend two or three conventions every year – these are basically paid holidays, with a bit of work thrown in, and it is equally usual for herself/himself to tag along, often paid for by the employer. Nobody in their right mind would stick the partner in a hotel out at Mansfield’s kip, with nothing to do bar enjoy the scenic delights of Jobstown, visit the architectural gem of the Basketball Centre and shop at the Square. And nobody will take bus/luas out there from the city. Years ago I ran a 200 delegate conference in Dublin Castle and getting people there and back from Jurys was a nightmare; I dread to think what Citiwest would be like.
      I agree that con. centres can be soul-less, but most of that is the planners’ and/or architect’s fault. They DO add to many areas, e.g. Baltimore, which once had the 2nd highest crime rate in the US, now has a fully rejuvenated seaport area that admittedly lacks some buzz on those very few days when there is no convention (or Orioles games!) Mainly they are busy, so they are not soulless that often.

      Mansfield should not have been flaunted on a platform like the LL without a tough expert to tackle him and show him for what is is.

    • #745586
      J. Seerski
      Participant

      REJECTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      ABP says NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

    • #745587
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Yes indeed the Bord has ruled

      @www.rte.ie wrote:

      Citywest convention centre is blocked

      May 29, 2006 17:20
      An Bord Pleanála has refused retention planning for a convention centre in south Dublin by HSS, a company connected to developer Jim Mansfield.

      The 6,000-seater centre, with provision for 675 car parking spaces, had been granted planning permission by South Dublin County Council last October.

      But in a decision today, an Bord Pleanála refused planning, in part, due to the scale of the development. The €50m centre first became a source of controversy when Mr Mansfield’s company built a steel frame and part of the roof without full planning approval.

      In 2004, the firm was fined €1,750 and ordered to pay costs of almost €30,000 to the council after Tallaght District Court found it had failed to comply with an enforcement order by the council to stop work on the centre. But last year the Council decided to grant him permission to build the convention centre at Citywest, in Saggart, Co Dublin.

      A spokesman for Jim Mansfield described the decision as disappointing. He added that that the company would look at its options when it had read the full report.

    • #745588
      Anonymous
      Participant

      ah yes, the tread can finally be put to bed …

      Mansfield’s giant heap of crap is not to be 😀 😀 😀

      Is that definitely it now ?? no appeals, no come back ?

    • #745589
      kite
      Participant

      @Peter FitzPatrick wrote:

      ah yes, the tread can finally be put to bed …

      Mansfield’s giant heap of crap is not to be 😀 😀 😀

      Is that definitely it now ?? no appeals, no come back ?

      :rolleyes: I hope so, but, MONEY dear boy, MONEY, the Mafia and money rules, dont hold your breath?

    • #745590
      lisam
      Participant

      we could do with the likes of jim mansfield down in cork, there are no major concert venues down here. There is a lot of talk (the last 5 years) but no action as of yet!! I know he hasnt done everything by the book but neither have a lot of other developers.

      Architecturally his proposed convention centre would have blended in with the existing hotel and leisure complex on the site, No building looks well during the construction stage, all steelwork is ugly but you have to make sure the building will not fall down

    • #745591
      Anonymous
      Participant

      architecturally his convention centre would have been embarrassing, cow shed with tacked on mock georgian front. wow.

    • #745592
      GregF
      Participant

      Maybe they should have let him build it after all …..ahem!…….it is a much needed facility. That giant neo georgian pastiche cow shed could only be a giant neo georgian pastiche cow shed, so to blend in with the rest of the disneyland ensemble. Anything contemporary would just look odd. Besides most of the suits who attend these functions would probably think it lovely. Ah sure bless ’em all!

    • #745593
      daveydoris
      Participant

      Hi All,

      I’ve just moved into the area ( Saggart) in question and am delighted with ABP’s decision to block Mansfield’s CC…BTW, there’s a development of what looks like mixed retailresidential units that has gone up between CW Hotel and Carrigmore….does anyone know what the deal is here? Its been lying empty since I’ve moved to Saggart anyway ( Dec 05)

      :confused:

    • #745594
      GrahamH
      Participant

      A picture in the paper this morning 😮

      Heheh – went looking for one on the internet, and found this 😀

      http://images.google.ie/images?hl=en&q=conference%20centre%20citywest&sa=N&tab=wi

    • #745595
      Anonymous
      Participant

      wow, the oppulence … I take it all back ! …

      NOT. 😀

    • #745596
      jdivision
      Participant

      Anybody see the crap about it in The Freeman section of the Indo business section today?

      Quote:
      PROPERTY developer and entrepreneur Jim Mansfield is inclined to play ducks and drakes with the planning laws, but few can deny that his facility at Citywest is first class. So he has every right to feel aggrieved that An Bord Pleanala has blocked his expansion plans, for the very flimsiest of reasons.

      Mansfield’s vision for Citywest was ahead of its time. He correctly foresaw that there was demand for a hotel and golf facility that served the big industrial base around the Naas Road and the M50, positioned five minutes from Newlands Cross.

      Before he built his conference centre, Dublin was ill-served with such facilities. The RDS has upped its game since Mansfield came along, but it’s in an area where traffic access is now a daily nightmare.

      Harry Crosbie’s Point Theatre has never caught on as a venue for commercial events and there are traffic problems there, too.

      Since 2003, Mansfield has been endeavouring to construct Citywest 2, which would add 6,000 capacity to the 4,000 already there. The expansion was enthusiastically endorsed by both officials of South Dublin County Council and the councillors.

      However, An Bord Pleanala has ignored this expression of local democracy and refused permission to make the Citywest centre any bigger. The board decided that a centre like Citywest should have “full access to supporting recreational, accommodation and cultural facilities”.

      However, Fianna Fail Ard Fheis delegates want a bed, a drink and a meal. Citywest has all those. They don’t want to visit an art gallery anyway.

      The board also decreed that such a major facility “should be located in a core commercial area, such as city centre or major town centre, in order to avail of a range of public transport options”.

      Because the proposed convention centre would be “reliant primarily on private transport”, it would contravene the policies set out in the regional planning guidelines to reduce the growth in demand for transport.

      Again, this is a load of tosh. The issue of public transport doesn’t concern organisers of events in Citywest. They recognise that people who want to attend a property exhibition don’t mind hopping in their cars to get there.

      Harry Crosbie objected to Citywest’s expansion – yet more than a decade after the Point opened, the venue still isn’t served by a regular Dublin Bus service.

      In any event, the State has recently invested hundreds of millions in both the M50 and widening the N7. Citywest’s location on the city fringe is much better suited to traffic modalities than the national convention centre that has been earmarked for Spencer Dock.

      Mansfield knows that the Spencer Dock centre is coming down the tracks. Yet he was willing to risk his capital to take it on. It’s a shame that his enterprise has been stymied by ivory tower inhabitants. [QUOTE]

    • #745597
      Anonymous
      Participant
    • #745598
      jdivision
      Participant

      @Thomond Park wrote:

      http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=-717500&Y=7002500&width=500&height=300&gride=&gridn=&srec=0&coordsys=mercator&db=&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&keepicon=&zm=0&scale=10000&down.x=189&down.y=7

      Hmm Garter Lane hardly representative of World class access

      I wonder exactly how much of that article Freeman wrote himself unless Freeman also moonlights for a PR agency

      I think it’s a pseudonym an I’m pretty sure I know who wrote it. I suspect it’s the same person to whom Mansfield leaks a lot of his stories

    • #745599
      urbanisto
      Participant

      It almost brings a tear to my eye…poor John…and poor cultureless Fianna Fail delegates…..

    • #745600
      kite
      Participant

      Poor Mr.Mansfield back in the news again this evening.
      RTE reports that his private jet was borrowed without his knowledge and hired to another who then flew to Belgium to pick up 10 million euro worth of heroin.
      When you luck is out!!

    • #745601
      ctesiphon
      Participant

      Presumably thought he didn’t need permission.

    • #745602
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @ctesiphon wrote:

      Presumably thought he didn’t need permission.

      LOL, but it is quite a scary event. Were it to have been a suicide bomber instead of a dope runner, we could have been looking at a smoking hole in Sellafield. That, ‘cos of the increase in private plane and helicopter ownership, has been a security worry for a long time.
      KB2

    • #745603
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Citywest lodges fresh centre application
      Tuesday, 24 April 2007 12:00
      Citywest Hotel, owned by developer Jim Mansfield, has lodged a new planning application to build a 4,000-seat convention centre at the hotel in Saggart, Co Dublin.

      The proposed centre became a source of controversy three years ago when a steel frame and part of the roof were built without full planning approval.

      An Bord Pleanála has twice refused permission for the development, and Citywest has been granted leave to pursue a judicial review of the decisions.

      AdvertisementBut in a statement, the company said this was a lengthy procedure and the hotel was eager to expand its events facilities as quickly as possible.

      It said the new application followed changes to transport infrastructure in the area, including the widening of the N7 and confirmation of a Luas line extension to Saggart, partly funded by Citywest.

      Mansfield Group chief executive Bernard O’Byrne said the new centre would generate around €50m a year for the economy.

      Has the steel frame come down or is this retention mark 2?

      Conference activity would generate €50m for the economy if sited at City West but probably €75m – €100m at Spencer Dock; a retail impact assessment on the Dublin conference market should be submitted.

    • #745604
      Anonymous
      Participant

      ah ye beat me to it 😀

      steel frame is gone as far as i know. It seems his proposed shed will accommodate 4k, whereas the national at spencer dock can cater for just 2500 in the main auditorium (but 8k in the building overall) … perhaps the competition will be healthy. Reckon his chances are better this time with luas, improved N7 etc.

    • #745605
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Can’t see it; a one hour plus Luas Journey through the industrial metropolis of Dublin 10 and Dublin 12 just doesn’t constitute good transport links. Is the 65B quicker?

      Sheds beside protected astructures rarely clear the bord

    • #745606
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Is the 65B quicker?

      Outside rush hour(s), absolutely !

      not normally that cynical but with mansfield stumping up a good amount of the cost for luas extension, i wonder. He can already accommodate 3k in the hotel, not sure if the return on investment will be worth it when set against the ncc & its city centre location, prestige, spec etc.

    • #745607
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Thats the worry and what happens next?

      Point depot type events in an area that does not have the capacity to accomodate concerts.

      This is what many suspect he has been after for a long time.

      The Luas will work once it serves City West Business Park and Saggart and the sporadic nature of his complex would have little impact on its ongoing revenue streams but would have the capacity to create chaos at particular times.

      The more I think about it the Bord got it right in 2000 granting permission for Specncer Dock to be the National Conference Centre.

    • #745608
      Anonymous
      Participant

      So it looks as if the saga has come to an end …

      The Irish Times wrote:
      Mansfield’s Dublin convention centre gets the go-ahead

      AN BORD Pleanála ended a four-year planning battle yesterday by giving permission to developer Jim Mansfield to go ahead with his controversial &#8364]

      Can’t wait :rolleyes:

      Ok so its not the issue it once was with the NCC & Point mid way through construction but its disappointing to see practically no
      mention or direction from ABP on the intended architectural profile of this thing.

    • #745609
      urbanisto
      Participant

      Fianna Fail love it…thats all that matters.

    • #745610
      kefu
      Participant

      And don’t forget the “exceptional circumstances” as I’m sure the Citywest Hotel is probably struggling in today’s uncertain times.
      An Bord Pleanala have in the space of one short week turned themselves into a joke.
      We’re now back at a stage where developers will just go ahead and start building and then hope for planning permission later on in the process, citing the possibility that they’ll go bust.

    • #745611
      wearnicehats
      Participant

      second high profile scheme in a week to overturn the inspector’s report. Makes you wonder why the inspectors bother

    • #745612
      GregF
      Participant

      Gas, for al the foot dragging by the government about conference centres years ago, we are now getting them all over the place! There must be a recession on!

    • #745613
      kefu
      Participant

      The ironic thing is that it will probably be the Mansfield one that does better business.

    • #745614
      Paul Clerkin
      Keymaster

      Receiver appointed to Citywest Hotel
      Tuesday, 6 July 2010 17:55

      A receiver has been appointed to Citywest Hotel and Golf Club today on foot of a request from Bank of Scotland Ireland.

      The hotel, in Saggart, Co Dublin, has been open for 18 years and is owned by well-known businessman Jim Mansfield.

      Mr Mansfield has not commented but the hotel’s chief executive Sean Whelan has described the decision to appoint a receiver as premature. He said they are considering their legal options.

      Mr Whelan said the hotel has been and still is in negotiations with what he called a substantial investor to buy the entire property.

      It is believed that HSS, the company which owns Citywest, owes Bank of Scotland Ireland €180m.

      The receiver, Martin Ferris of Ferris & Associates, intends appointing an operator to continue trading the business as a going concern. Around 400 people work there.

      HSS consists of Citywest Hotel, Conference Centre, Leisure and Golf Resort. The appointment also includes the assets of Jeffel, a land holding company.

      Other properties owned by Jim Mansfield also at Saggart, are not affected by the receivership.

      These include Palmerstown Golf Club, Finnstown Hotel and Weston Airport.

      http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0706/citywest.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    • #745615
      Anonymous
      Participant

      @Paul Clerkin wrote:

      Receiver appointed to Citywest Hotel
      Tuesday, 6 July 2010 17:55

      A receiver has been appointed to Citywest Hotel and Golf Club today on foot of a request from Bank of Scotland Ireland.

      The hotel, in Saggart, Co Dublin, has been open for 18 years and is owned by well-known businessman Jim Mansfield.

      Mr Mansfield has not commented but the hotel’s chief executive Sean Whelan has described the decision to appoint a receiver as premature. He said they are considering their legal options.

      Mr Whelan said the hotel has been and still is in negotiations with what he called a substantial investor to buy the entire property.

      It is believed that HSS, the company which owns Citywest, owes Bank of Scotland Ireland €180m.

      The receiver, Martin Ferris of Ferris & Associates, intends appointing an operator to continue trading the business as a going concern. Around 400 people work there.

      HSS consists of Citywest Hotel, Conference Centre, Leisure and Golf Resort. The appointment also includes the assets of Jeffel, a land holding company.

      Other properties owned by Jim Mansfield also at Saggart, are not affected by the receivership.

      These include Palmerstown Golf Club, Finnstown Hotel and Weston Airport.

      http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0706/citywest.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

      I’m glad I sold my Lloyds shares; how in gods name could anyone lend €180m on a complex centred on a distribution shed spec building without Tesco as tenant on a 15 year plus term

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