pigtown

The go ahead has been given for the Revenue staff to be transferred to a new office building on this site. It is planned that up to 800 staff will be rehoused by 2018.

@Tuborg wrote:

I think you are overestimating the extent of the so called retail core if that’s even an appropriate term to use given the paucity of the current offering. Realistically Limericks shopping district currently stretches from the O’Connell Street/Roches Street junction down as far as Denmark Street along with some of the adjoining streets and laneways. Hardly what you would call expansive!

If you recall, up until 5 or so years ago Rutland Street and Lower Patrick Street were lined with a variety of businesses; retail stores, cafes etc before the misguided decision to remove the occupants before redevelopment plans were even finalised. So this portion of the city centre was/is very much part of the commercial zone.

In reality though the quality of Limericks retail line-up has evolved disappointingly since the Cruises Street project opened over 20 years ago now. William Street for example never capitalised on the momentum created along with the increased footfall in its vicinity and the opportunity to freshen up the street was lost. It has stagnated at best since.

Similarly with O’Connell Street we saw only modest investment in retail premises even throughout the excesses of the “boom” years. The former Sony centre outlet has been vacant and up for sale for a number of years at this stage. The former Fergusons chemist across the street likewise. The calibre of many businesses on the street currently is poor and significant renovation and possibly amalgamation of properties is needed to attract new, higher quality tenants. There’s no sign that this is forthcoming and you can’t exactly usurp the existing occupants either.

Yeah I agree with everything you said here, which is why I think utilising the site for retail would be wrong. I would assume that any new retail on the site would be high profile nationally, like Victoria Square, Dundrum TC or at the very least, Opera Lane. The council would be looking to attract major names and at least one department store. Should they succeed then the area, which once housed local stores and businesses that would really only attract local customers, would become the new core of the city. The powers that be would be more in line to focus on amalgamating and enhancing properties on Cruises St., William St., and O’Connell St. As we have seen from the Opera Centre site it is possible to put large development sites together in the city.

You might not be a fan but in fairness that City Central development along with the pedestrianisation scheme completely revitalised Bedford Row. It brought high quality retail and residential accommodation along with a five star hotel to the city centre on what was a neglected and decaying site. Do you remember how dingy it looked previously? Take a look at the attachments below. :thumbdown:

The project also attracted the first significant batch of retailers in to the city centre for many years, most of them not represented in Limerick previously. All the units are fully let too. It’s clear that in order to entice quality brands in to the city centre accommodation of an appropriate size and standard is required. I believe a project similar to that on Bedford Row could work well for the opera centre site. By bringing in fresh blood and more footfall one would hope that it would provide a knock-on benefit to the city centre at large.

Just to be clear here, of course Bedford Row is a million times better than it was, I would just prefer if the design involved some variety from unit to unit so that it gives the illusion of a vibrant and interesting street. And I use the word illusion because although it is much nicer, it is still a pretty boring street, both to look at and to pass through.

I’m not convinced that the opera site is best suited to a large office development. Sure it might bring further employment in to town but large scale office blocks generally provide quite a dead, dull street presence and won’t exactly draw people in to the city except for the employees obviously. An element of office space could of course be accommodated but I wouldn’t like to see the majority of the site given over to it.

There are other locations that are more suitable for this purpose. The half built GPO/hanging gardens development which is in NAMA was to contain a large amount of office space over 6 floors or so. It should be a priority to have this completed at the earliest opportunity. The former ESB building and eventually Henry Street Garda headquarters provide another large scale redevelopment opportunity on the quays along with the portion of the docklands that SFPA are looking to offload. A significant amount of office space is currently vacant in the building at the corner of Thomas Street/Catherine Street as well.

Maybe you’re right. I suppose the site is too big to devote itself exclusively to retail. office, or residential. A good mix of each would probably be the best bet.

I admire you optimism but I wouldn’t hold my breath. I’ve lost count of the number of glossy city centre strategies and development plans that have been released over the years. They’re hardly worth the paper they’re printed on. This will simply be a regurgitation of the same aspirational spiel which is churned out endlessly and that the City Council have neither the ability nor the will to follow through on!

You have to be optimistic in this country as it would be all too easy to become a cynical, pessimistic old man with the state of the country. I am more positive about the upcoming plan because unlike the last masterplan for Arthur’s Quay, the council actually own the site and seem to have a driven and ambitious new city manager.

@Tuborg wrote:

Some quite puzzling quotes attributed to the “economic director” of the forthcoming combined Limerick local authority in the press recently.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/key-limerick-city-site-not-suitable-for-big-retailer-1-4609522

It’s laughable really that the site which for the most part of the last decade was trumpeted by Limerick City Council amongst others as imperative to the commercial revitalisation of the city centre can suddenly be deemed unsuitable for this purpose despite being put through an exhaustive planning process twice.

Frankly I’m happy someone is shouting stop before the thing actually gets built. In fairness to the economic director he is a new appointment and had no input into the Opera Centre plans.

@Tuborg wrote:

Let’s see;

• It’s a large city centre site in dire need of a combination of redevelopment and conservation.
• Immediately adjacent to established commercial, shopping and leisure areas.
• Planning permission is already secured for a large retail project so obviously this type of development is acceptable in principle
• The site is under the control of the local authority (although it’s hard to tell if this is a positive or an impediment).

No clearly it doesn’t make sense on any of these fronts! :wtf:

*Can’t disagree there.
*Fair enough Arthur’s Quay is established but it’s hardly a destination in the city.
*The key word here I think is in ‘principle’. Sure, the proposal didn’t contravene any zonings or the retail hierarchy of the region but at the same time it was way too big for the city.
*I don’t think it would matter who was in control of the site. That much new retail space would only serve to take from the rest of the city core.

@Tuborg wrote:

Essentially this is an admission by the local authority that they are way out of their depth here and haven’t a notion what to do with the site nor how to proceed with a redevelopment.

It’s over a year now since Limerick City Council purchased the site and it obviously begs the question what exactly have they been doing for the past 12 months?

I fear that the lack of a co-ordinated effort not to mention a comprehensive master plan will just result in a piecemeal, make it up as you go along approach that will inevitably lead to a disjointed and underwhelming development of the site.

Of course that’s not to say that a re-evaluation of the original concept isn’t required. It’s safe to assume now that the shopping centre proposal is never going to be built. Indeed a development of such considerable retail floor space can hardly be justified given that the reality check has well and truly set in.

While I don’t disagree that the council are out of their depth in undertaking such a huge redevelopment project, I don’t see them admitting anything. The new director has taken a look at the plans and has decided that they are not feasible.

A master plan for the future development of the entire city has been commissioned and is due for publication and I think any decisions on the site before this is published would have been grossly negligent of the council.

I don’t think a shopping proposal on the scale that was envisaged was ever viable. It would have drawn business’ and customers away from the existing retail core and would have had an overall negative impact on the city centre. In my opinion, had this gone ahead and filled all of the units then people would have had little reason to go anywhere in the city.

@Tuborg wrote:

All things considered my preference would be for a new pedestrian street flanked by purpose built, appropriately scaled and sensitively designed individual shop units (with linkages to the existing buildings and dual frontage where possible) snaking through from the Ellen Street/Patrick Street corner to a quality public space on Bank Place. Something along the lines of the opera lane project in Cork roughly. Perhaps an element of office space and residential accommodation could also be included. There’s ample room after all on what is a pretty extensive site.

It seems like I’m disagreeing with everything you say but I’m not sure that the city needs another street, not when we already have so many dead streets in the city. Also I think developments like Opera Lane and City Central really detract from a city. All of the shopfronts look the same and there is no variety. It’s almost like a shopping centre.

@Tuborg wrote:

I’d also like to see the granary building afforded a more prominent position in the redevelopment. Integration to the centre of the site is easily achieved. At the moment too much of the original building is concealed by the 1980s office block. The fabric of this structure, its stonework and arches should be showcased not hidden. The removal of the office building would also afford the opportunity to extend the internal courtyard space along the entire length of the granary.

Agreed.

@Tuborg wrote:

I really wish Limerick City Council would get off their arses and demonstrate that they are at least formulating plans or considering some uses for the site even in the short term.

Why not tear down that dog ugly hoarding and fencing along Michael Street. Clear those industrial buildings in the yard at the centre of the site and lay out a temporary car park. At least it would be a start. Why not also make the structurally sound buildings that have been vacant for the last 5 years available for rent again?

Show some imagination for feck sake!

Well the plans are almost complete I think. It is possible that the council don’t want to touch the site in a piecemeal fashion so as to minimise costs when something does happen, this is unlikely however and they are probably content to do a lot of talking without taking action, like the situation with the city museum. With regard to renting out some buildings, I’d imagine the rat problem is pretty severe there and any business would be hard pressed to pass any heath inspections.

What I would like to see in the site is loads of modern office space. If you consider that that any decent sized company wanting to set up in the city would probably need to build their own office building first, a large quantity of good quality office space would be a major asset. I don’t believe it should be used for retail as there are plenty of sites nearer to the core that have been identified in the most recent city development plan that are suitable for large scale developments.

You’re right on both counts there Griff. I just like imagining how Limerick could be more of a destination in the country, rather than the also ran compared to Dublin/Cork/Galway.

@zulutango wrote:

I don’t agree that Arthur’s Quay Park is a dead Park. I go through there quite a lot and it’s well used.

Ok maybe I’m exaggerating but I don’t think it’s as busy as it should be as the most central public space in the city. I put it down to its location and the fact that it seems to be more concrete than grass.

@zulutango wrote:

There is a big problem in that the road acts as a major barrier to it. The tunnel solution is interesting, but no doubt very, very costly.

The tunnel would be just below the existing road level and would be more of a road through a big basement carpark than a stand alone structure. Basements are standard procedure in new commercial builds so it wouldn’t be terribly expensive.

@zulutango wrote:

Given that it’s very unlikely that anything will happen in this area for a while, perhaps pressure should be brought to bear on the owners of the various disused buildings to do something with them. The old Dunnes Stores is particularly ghastly.

Of course it should be brought to bear but the chances of that happening are slim to none. Just look at Liddy St. as your guide.

@Goofy wrote:

The council has already looked into this idea back in 2008. Look at page 54 of this pdf http://limerickcity.ie/Publications/Thefile,8018,en.pdf

Ya my suggestion is a modification of that proposal. I dont think the little square they propose at the O’Connell St. junction is big enough to justify building on Arthurs Quay. Also the orbital route would cut through it, making the riverside area less attractive (in the sense of attracting people across a busy street, as opposed to how it looks), hence the tunnel.

I think that a huge shopping centre like the Opera Centre is the wrong fit for Limerick. The city has so many dead streets with great potential. While the shops in the centre would certainly draw people into the city, only a small part of the city would be rejuvinated.
If a scheme like the proposed Arthurs Quay redevelopment (not that design though, see below) or the Liverpool 1 development went ahead, the shops that would be hidden in a shopping centre would all have street frontage. Thus the same amount of new stores can transfer a larger part of the city.

[attachment=0:3jmkzsc8]Arthurs Quay.png[/attachment:3jmkzsc8]
Red: Site outline
Black: Traffic
Yellow: Pedestrian only streets, squares, promenades
Purple: Entrance/exit of traffic tunnel.
Green: Public square

The tunnel would allow the area to be largely car free and would also give access to the underground carpark that would span the whole site.
Moving the park would finally give the city a defined centre and the wide prominade along the quays would mean that the riverfront would become a living area of the city again. Playgrounds and the like would encourage families to live in the apartments that would take up a substantial part of the floor area above the ground/first floor retail units. This in turn would bring life back into the city.