BTH
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Ah yes… thats much better Paul – Now i realise how wrong I was….
Not!
Ah it’s too easy to take things too seriously and sure it’s all just a matter of opinion. However I do like this building – not that it’s a masterpiece by any means – and I hate to see such superficial criticism of the “1980’s corporate America” kind… There’s got to be more to debate on the subject than that…
Had my lunch in the fantastic little “Nude” cafe at the base of the towers… The quality of the Landscaping / Canopies / paving has to be seen to be believed… The claim that George’s Quay is a “Cheap” copy of a typical corporate american tower is proved to be rubbish when the building is viewed close up – In materials and workmanship it’s clear that no expense has been spared and the numerous playful details, such as the fin walls with bands of rough stone resting on a base of glass, the elegant canopies and particularly the “Nude” outlet – with its entirely opening wall of glass – reflect the high quality of design and execution.
Overall the form of the building creates a strong visual image for Dublin. The latest carlsberg billboard ad “bus route” has the George’s quay tower in the background and not only is it immediately recognisable but it also looks fantastic. To compare the building to Cesar Peili’s Canary Wharf (much derided as being a dwarf itself in it’s day) is to completely misread the form. It’s not a heroic prism thrusting toward the sky – it’s a cluster of deftly proportioned elements that read as a crystaline sculpture. viewing from different angles creates different impressions. As well as this the “cluster” aspect allows the height and bulk of the building to blend much more easily into the context.
It’s easy to criticise this building on a purely superficial level – as so many posting on this forum have done (it’s negative impact on Trinity College being one of the more ridiculous claims) – but familiarity (as in walking past every morning, lunchtime and evening of every working day) has led me to appreciate that there is both quality and substance embodied in the George’s Quay tower.
Well, its got to be said that Edward Developments are responsible for some great projects in Galway – the Mixed use Edward Square for one and the currently under construction apartments / retail on the Dublin road….
Now that I’ve seen the new visuals I have to say that it dosent look like a bad building -much more interesting than the previous renderings and models I’d seen. However i still don’t know about having such height so close to the river – the effect of this height of building here paired with Liberty Hall almost directly opposite will be the creation of a “gateway” effect through which the river will flow. Now this could be a good thing, but it could also be overpowering in the context, especially so close to the rightful centrepiece of the area – The Customs House. Granted, it’s already a much abused landmark, surrounded by buildings all seemingly screaming for attention (particularly IFSC house whose sickly green windows are looking incredibly dated), but to further add to the clutter of “Landmarks” in this area would be a shame.
But, I have to say, if building an office block above it is the only means by which we can get a better Tara St Station (which I have to suffer at least twice a day), I guess it’s gotta be done. Just a pity it dosent do more to complement whats around it rather than adopting a pretty funky, but slightly too showy appearance.As for the views of George’s Quay, I was thinking of further down, closer to the Guinness Brewery, where the stepped pyramids look pretty cool as part of the skyline. Theres also a great view of them from in front of City Hall. I’m still pleasantly surprised by these buildings after the initial horror at seeing the scheme renderings. Maybe it’ll be the same for the new Tara St. Who knows!?
Aparrently it’s going ahead – and I gotta say it looks pretty horrific… Much too bulky and COMPLETELY out of scale so close to the river. In comparison The George’s quay Scheme is now being proven as a valid response to the site, creating a cluster of slender towers, breaking down the bulk and creating a valuable addition to the Dublin Skyline. Not least of the problems with the Tara St proposal is that it blocks all view of the George’s Quay Scheme from further upp the river, replacing it’s modulated (and beautifully proportioned) peaks with a slab of reflective glass… Ah well, maybe it’ll improve the Station itself a bit…
Id say the photo looks grim and not the actual building. In reality the building is crisp and bright, faced in sparkling white granite (not concrete as some people are assuming). The detailing of the window openings is excellent and the rhythm of the cladding creates more than enough visual interest for me.
Thank God for that! I am so relieved that it’s going ahead (although subject ti ministerial approval sounds a bit ominous!).
I am convinced that the Monument is right for Dublin and hopefully it won’t be long before everyone will be gawking up in amazement at this beautiful, elegant engineering marvel.Well, it’s quite obvious that Mr Roche has at least one fan! I recognise what you are saying. I agree that Roche is very good at designing bland office buildings. He’s probably the best in the world at it today. And fair play to him for that. He can also produce extraordinarily good architecture when given the chance, but it’s been quite a while since he has had that chance.
Look at the pictures in the “Convention Centre” forum http://www.archeire.com/forums/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/000012.html particularly the fantastic perspective of the view towards the scheme from an adjacent street. Can anyone honestly say that this will be good for Dublin. THAT is the real issue, not the matter of opinions on Kevin Roche’s general qualities as a designer. Now maybe these buildings will be a model of good internal organisation and a fabulous place in which to work, which is the general consensus on most of Roche’s offices. But the simple fact is that the Spencer Dock buildings are, externally, devoid of interest, aside from the initial impact of their sheer scale and bravado. There seems to me to be no attention paid to proportion, materials, colour – any of the things that can make modern architecture transcend the simple issues of cost and floorspace. Sunless canyons of streets between glassy slabs (maybe with stuck on po-mo pastiche to add “humanity” if we are really lucky) will not be a valuable addition to Dublin by any stretch of the imagination. Too true, is is just about as “muttony” a Brief you can get, but you can’t palm off of the blame for the results on the developers (only about 99%!).
Look at the Convention Centre’s canalside elevation. Was Kevin having an off day or something??? It looks as though the designer thought that something else was going to be built right next to it so it wouldnt be seen! In fact there’s a thought! Are the spencer Dock Development Company going to fill in the canal and build more office space?!? Probably, if they could get away with it!
[This message has been edited by BTH (edited 31 March 2000).]
[This message has been edited by BTH (edited 31 March 2000).]
Dear Not Sickened…
Kevin Roche has had a very successful career simply because he has pandered to what corporate america wants in terms of architecture… bland, soulless and severely unimaginitive office blocks. Granted he has had a number of fine buildings, Oakland Museum and The Ford Foundation to name two, but these are in the minority.
The issue here is what the people, who are going to have to look at his monstrosities out at Spencer Dock, think of Kevin Roche, not what Kevin Roche will think of our opinions. Success does not equate with quality. I suggest that you think your argument through properly before you start insulting people on this forum because right now it looks like it’s you who should “get a life”.
Well said Rory!
Did anyone see Tuesday night’s advertisement for the scheme by RTE. With it’s swooping shots of Kevin Roche’s at best mediocre output, set to stirring soaring musical accompaniment with no less than Gehry himself singing the praises, how could anyone dare to criticise the great man!
Yes, Kevin Roche has created some stunning buildings, but he even admitted that the speculative development schemes of which Spencer Dock is a prime example, led to conservative and solely utilitarian design. His car oriented schemes which were hailed in the programme as one of his greatest innovations are fantastic in the American midwest, but for god’s sake, not in Dublin.
And please may he redesign the canal frontage of the conference centre because at the moment it constitutes an obscenity and an insult. A big blank box with an (admittedly quite funky) glass cylinder does not make a great building.[This message has been edited by BTH (edited 23 March 2000).]
[This message has been edited by BTH (edited 30 March 2000).]
Please God. Don’t let them build these monsters. Please…
There’s my little prayer, but I’m very much afraid that it will not be answered. If what we see does get built that will be the end architecture in Dublin. They cannot get away with it. What was proposed before was infinitely preferable though by no means perfect. I remember asking a question concerning the Spencer Dock development a while ago as to how the indiginous architects of Ireland would handle such a major undertaking. I think that this gives some hint and it sure aint pretty. Whoever “designed” this monstrosity should leave the architectural profession now, before it’s too late. Sickening, horrifying… Words are not enough.I have to agree with you there. Seeing this incredibly clean cut and conceptually pure piece of architecture as I was swept into the station by bus a few months ago was quite a surprise. It’s also pretty impeccably detailled and sits well with the little row of houses it adjoins. It’s taken a long time for it to get any press, but hopefully it will get the appreciation it deserves from the general public.
Any more word on this development? It sounds pretty exciting anyway, although Pei,Cobb Freed have a patchy track record. Let’s hope it goes ahead…
[This message has been edited by BTH (edited 07 October 1999).]
I have to disagree with you there. The central bank is a quality building, looking as fresh today as it did when it was built. I love the dramatic overhangs, the deeply recessed windows, the chunky, yet elegant, bronze hangers… I went to Dublin in January with 60 other architecture students from all over England and Scotland, and the vast majority were very impressed by the Central bank, along with temple bar etc.
[This message has been edited by BTH (edited 10 June 1999).]
Thanks for the rant, and I fully agree with what you are saying. Buildings like this, with their cheap “mock georgian” look are the worst blots on the whole cityscape. The Jervis Centre is another example, except on an even more monstrous scale. As for the Ulster bank building, it’s clear that no conceptual thought has gone into the design at all. Off the peg, without any respect at all for it’s context… God it makes me angry! And I agree about the Guinness building also… an ordinary enough block, but with some grace and above all INTEGRITY. The courage of it’s convictions. So many buildings avoid making any sort of statement about themselves other than to ape their surroundings, or even worse, to fade into the background. It is one thing about building in a city, you can never ever hope to make a building of the scale of the Ulster bank “fade into the background”. As it stands it is truly offensive to the dignity of the wonderful customs house across the river.
A useful comparison is the civic offices (phase two) which I believe is a dignified and courageous attempt to promote modernity. And it succeeds. It’s got wonderful detailing, massing, scale… the modern equivalent of the Customs house. Yes, it can be seen as “just another off the shelf STW design”, but get beyond the prejudice and see the quality. At least compared to the Ulster Bank![This message has been edited by BTH (edited 03 June 1999).]
Very parochial attitude, don’t you think. The design was the best one submitted and, I have no doubt will be a spectacular asset to Dublin. Look where the the same attitude is getting us in Spencer Dock. Kevin Roche is hired because he’s an ex-pat with plenty of society contacts, and what does he do? He transplants unbelieveably ugly american corporate design onto the site. Now thats crap!
I think that this was a fantastic idea, more creative and imaginitive than the needle. However, the old Pillar was an absolute monstrosity, stumpy and much too wide at the base to be elegant. this scheme added even more width, and looked badly out of proportion, especially in the perspective sketches. As such, I believe that the needle is a stunningly elegant proposal, beautiful in it’s simplicity. I can’t wait to see it finished.
Thanks for the picture. It really is much too big for the site although the design looks interesting, at least compared to the Kevin Roche scheme downriver. Much worse is the building currently facing the Custom House, that awful Ulster Bank building. It’s a pity it can’t be demolished as part of the new scheme.
