will sligo clip the wings of Dunlop and Murray

I frankly don’t know Paul how anyone gets anything built in Irelend.

Can’t say more than that just now obviously but am completely underwhelmed by An Taisce.

If you could post the scheme Paul, that would be an idea. Can’t do it my end and maybe contributers to the site would like to make comment. Although judging by the tone of recent postings concerning conservation , maybe………….

The images are very useful but I don’t think the scheme proposed convinces, theres a big break and difference in scale, a new very blank looking gable, and a lack of the symmetry whihc seems to characterise the original Teeling House.

I’d be inclined to say keep teh house and re-model it a la Scarpa.

James

Which Scarpa would that be James and what about the horse and cart?

Sorry I suspect I’ve given offence, i was referring to Carlo Scarpa – he seemed to make a virtue out of working with rather than against existing fabric.

As to horses and carts I don’t really get your point. If its a case of giving new architecture precedence over old well then thats one argument that would need a lot of discussion and would encompass a huge amount of ‘exclusion clauses’ my comments were simpler really – in that I don’t think the scheme as proposed is really very sensitive. That said I’d prefer to hear your views on my specific comments.

Believe me James there’s nothing you can say to me which could cause me to take offence. I just happen to have lectured widely, in Europe and the United States on Carlo Scarpa and completed a masters disseration on Castelvecchio and consequently don’t understnd the relevance to a building built in 1820 on which I can find no historic or architectural framework or background information.

As for the horse and cart, your not looking hard enough, it’s in the pend on the drawing marked “as existing” ready to being driven by An Taisce back into some quaint ” quite man” side road marked cultural backwater

Alan, my point was fairly Simple, (too simple?)the proposed development has a number of problems in relation to the urban qualities of the existing building.

As for its significance or otherwise, I know Sligo fairly well and personally would be concerned that most of the new regeneration work done has been pretty much anti contextual with a strong bias towards demolition and consequently a tendancy towards ‘anywhere’ architecture.

I’m delighted that the penny dropped as to which Scarpa I was talking about (the other one sells shoes I think – unless you’re talking about the glass designer or manufacturer).

Just because you can’t find any merit yourself in the existing house does’nt mean its not there, 1800’s – 1830’s vernacular architecture is becoming quite rare in this country generally and in the larger planned towns in particular mostly as a result of intrusive comercial re-development – perhaps a look at Niall McCullogh’s ‘Lost Tradition’ might jog the grey cells some what.

My main point was though that it might prove far more interesting to try to work with the existing fabric rather than against it.

I really think that as architects we have to grow up a lilttle and be perhaps a little less precious about superimposing our own visions on the existing urban landscape.

I remember looking at my own rather pedestrian 18th century house when a bought it and thinking ‘what a mess’, it took a year or two of living there to realise that in its own ‘umble’ way it was quite a perfect thing and that really I should shelve all of my proposed ‘interventions’ ‘selective demolitions’ and ‘enhancements’, in honesty it was a better piece of architecture than I could produce. The point is – things survive for a reason, sometimes its accidental but more often than not there is an intrinsic quality (if only structural) which stretches out a buildings life.

As to Scarpa, don’t forget that for every castelvecchio there were myriad small interventions in humbler buildings, for me thats real ‘quality architecture’.

I’d still like to have a response to my specific criticisms.

PS: I don’t think of Sligo as a Cultural Backwater – but then perhaps I’m not that cultured, but like most people I would welcome cultural intervention – pray tell: What is the cultural content in teh proposed development??:confused:

Sorry James, you seem like a decent enough cove but I’ve lost interest

alan dunlop a friend told me of your participation on this site i am a gallery owner based in oxfordshire and an art dealer specialising in architectural drawings i sam your work at this years royal academy in scotland and it is beautiful would you consider an exhibition and are your sligo drawings for sale. i would swap of three of scarpa for one dunlop

Not for sale, maybe exhibition. Though if we’re succesful our client in Sligo will get them probably and anyone on the council who’s interested.

You should contact me though through the Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland not via this site.

Interesting design Alan. What are the rear elevations and plans like?

I’ll put together the plans and elevations MG and ask Paul if he’ll put them on the site. Thanks for your comments……..thought I was ploughing my own furrow

……the plan at ground floor MG, links through to Sligo High Street via our new wynd. Another developer picks it up at the top of our site and makes the connection

Just is case your’e wondering about the dead end.

Good luck alan
My preference would be for the full scheme.

Nice, very nice. Not knowing the geography of Sligo, will the new pedestrian access link two busy streets? Or a major and a minor?

Great draughtmanship
http://www.irish-architecture.com/buildings_ireland/sligo/sligo/7_lge.html

Yes it will MG, two major streets. We prepared a master planning strategy showing how the back courts could be redeveloped and routes through encouraged. Our new building next to the Court House will be at a strategic focal point entering Sligo from the south.

Thanks for the comments re the draughtmanship……they were the dogs bollock’s as opposed to the donkey’s balls. Only a Jesuit boy can tell the difference

Decision put off ’til November now. Hard, hard work getting things done in your wonderful country, no doubt about it.

Hav’nt been able to contribute as much to the site either Paul, sorry. Designing a bridge.

front elevation looks a bit like casa del fascio, which isnt a bad thing. just not sure it works in an sligeach.

It is a pity, as it looks like a good design.

But it begs the question why they didn’t design it for somewhere else in Sligo.

Rightly or wrongly An Taisce and other conservationists will attempt to protect built heritage. That should always be remembered prior to design. There are many locations in all our towns and cities that could do with a building of that design standard, that everyone would be happy to see going in.

Simple answer Diaspora, that’s the site our client owns.

sw101 without meaning again to be objectionable if you can tell me one time where you have been supportive to any building or anything apart from Pepe’s images that’s posted on this site , I would be interested to know?

Good luck finding clients with less controversial sites, I can think of more than a few places that could do with something very similar

i think the design has a lot of merit. i am at the moment doing an apartment complex in sligo and to be honest it fits in quite well with what alan has done…not copied alan..sorry i have to say that, but it’s what sligo corpo are looking for and as for the news today. disaster. bloody an taisce. i agree with keeping historical buildings..maybe gpo and four courts but someone’s bloody house that was related to some poet years ago in a regional town which is crying out for investment as a “gateway” and in immediate need of good architecture…i don’t think so.an taisce should be abolished, there members rounded up and hung( because to waste bullets on them is not worth it, at least u can re-use the rope) and as for the councillors..well they should have had the balls to stand up to a minority no matter the press and say this is what sligo needs to improve quality of life . we should be looking forward not back…this is what has our country f**ked the way it is. we just can’t let go of the past.

i’m not sure supportive is what i’d aim for here alan. my opinion and others is what i’d like to exchange and consider. i simply expressed a passing resemblance between your facade and that of a building i admire. problem?

if you’re looking for support you should probably go to your client or hire some yes men. i’m just going to give you my biased architectural opinion.

Originally posted by alan d
Sorry James, you seem like a decent enough cove but I’ve lost interest

your dismissive comments dont exactly invite one to engage with you. why is your guard so high?

Fin,

The past we can’t let go of is the ‘Futuristic model’ of suburbia and nissan micras. Yes little mock Georgian 3 bed semis glorifying the GPO and 4 courts. There are a 100 sites in sligo for theat excellently designed building, just not at the expense of an excellent townhouse.

And no not all townhouses are 2 up 2 down with a micra in the postage stamp garden

but it’s not excellent Diasopra, that’s the point. It is a building that apart from being built in 1820 has no outstanding architectural features. It is not recorded in any records as being of historical or architectural merit what so ever. I support the retention of historic buildings but they have to have real merit surely? Otherwise we stagnate and tell everyone in Ireland and Scotland we are more interested in the past than the future.

And I’ll say again, our client does not own a site by the river as An Taisce suggested we should stick this design or in the town centre. This is his site and we are responding to his needs and we think to people in sligo who wish to see their town encourage sensitive and contemporary architecture. By not allowing the replacement of this structure the whole project does not stack up financially so goes down the drain.

It is my understanding that the heritage group involved sent a student of architecture from Dublin to Sligo and on that basis a list of 200 protected structures was determined. What way is that to run a regeneration plan, it’s fucking bizarre

this is very true and wouldn’t it be horrible if it was like that but as far as i have heard no architectural merit is attached to this building only that it once housed yeats dogs or something similiar… 🙂 this thinking of keep it for the sake of it is crazy.

I think this may be the only building in Sligo Yeats did not have tea in Fin, although it has been a police station, a jail and a knocking shop. The last one is, I admit heresay

well at least it’s more interesting!!!!

Well Alan your developer should have thought of all the site implications when Scoping his residual Development analysis.

That is what makes successful developers, they know when to keep their chequebooks in their pockets

An Architect is a professional who works to client request, you did everything asked of you and probably a bit more in this case.

It is in my opinion the developers own fault, one quick phonecall to a savy town planning consultant with local knowledge and a clearer picture emerges.

As for the town house not being excellent, I disagree there is more to architectural heritage than Georgian set pieces, good vernacular architecture is equally important given the history of this nation. It may surprise you but Yale university has published many works on Irish Vernacular culture including buildings and other effects.

I see you are from An Taisce Diasopra, nuff said. Sorry I wasted your time.

given what history? and from ur comments i gather u think we should save all this georgian crap. what i said was without variety then it would look terrible. which would eventually mean that dublin stretches down to my part of the country. i can’t think of anything worse. because of all this semi-d shit that all developers seem determined to put up as nearly everybody seems determined to want to live in..
i was generally critising an taisce beacuse i think they are idiots with nothing better to do than object to everything that might modernise our tiny little island. they are clones of the evil devalera.

ha,ha..i didn’t notice that before but to be honest my previous comments stand. sorry if i insult you but it’s my honest feelings on what ur organisation is doing to this country.

Not being a member of An Taisce I can’t speak for them. But I feel that there is a certain lack of objectivity here on peoples interpretation of them.

An Taisce from what I understand are a proscibed body under the the 1963 planning act. They must be consulted before any works can be commenced on any protected structure.

Where structures are not protected An Taisce rarely has any interest, unless the scale of that development would have an impact upon other protected structures.

The number of objections An Taisce makes in any given year is miniscule in relation to the objections locals make.

If you want to see real obstructionism, remember Treasury holdings purchasing a bar on Moore St and holding up the Carlton Cinema development for years.

i disagree. they object to whatever the feel like and for some unknown reason they are consulted as it’s my belief that they aren’t a government body.

if you patronisingly send a student to make up the list of protected structures for a town from your own converted Georgian Town House in Dublin and on that basis stubbornly argue your case, it’s only a matter of time before your’e found out, FIN.

what?

They are consulted because in the days before the internet they would have needed to visit every single planning office every day to monitor applications.

I concede that there is an another argument in this case, it is a damn good building.

But in many other cases applications are driven by love of nothing other than money.

That is how the original list of proposed protected structures was drawn up, I have been told by a number of people all of whome are relaible sources. Hard to believe, eh?

Hardly believe it myself

Regarding the list of protected structures, it is not finished and will not be finished for another ten years according to the Heritage Council.

an architectural student. ha,ha. jesus. this is a great country. ha,ha… if it wasn’t so serious i would fall about the place laughing. how can they justify that? what has the council to say about that?

Hardly surprising if you have 200 structures to wade through in a town as small as Sligo.

Have you thought about getting another student? Might help?

Benchmarking

with all it’s quality architecture one guesses!!!!!! 🙂

The reason students are doing this work is because local authorities do not have the money to hire Heritage officers.

Dublin City is currently without a Heritage officer due to the public sector hiring freeze when the last person left she was not replaced

i have only just been able to return to the website alan to strangly discover the thread that brought me in the first place. i am sorry the outcome could not have been positive. it is a sad outcome i know but my offer is still open. come and build in cowley or better still in oxford.

it can not be true about the students can it? i thought english heritage were amature.

Having Just read gm+ad
Challenging contextualism

I have to say Bewleys Nottingham is quite something as are many others but that for me stands out.

You should put the book into the IAVI and get them to do a feature on it.

Good work and good luck and perservere there are hundreds of sites for you to develop in Ireland regardless of the Sligo outcome.

😀

?

Mike, I don’t know about English Heritage but our own Historic Scotland is now looking like a thoroughly professional organisation and I’m sorry really for the hard time I’ve given them in the past.

By sending students out to regional centres to determine what should be saved and then blindly arguing the case, playing one political party off against another, development in Ireland will grind to a halt.

Meanwhile we have been working on this project for over a year, producing what everyone agrees is an excellent submission even if they are not sure about the contemporary approach and our client has spent a considerable amount of money.

Now the project is going down the tubes. What’s even more fucking absurd is that they will let us demolish everything behind the facade. What kind of conserevtion strategy is that?

Yale will probably like it though.

Hey ho!

Not sure that I want to get involved in this thread, however, it does seem to me that the attitudes towards conservation in this country and evidenced on this thread are juvenile in the extreme.

Alan – sorry you ‘fell out of your pram’ however, the building was a protected structure, contrary to your assertions it does have an architectural and urban significance in that such structures in the vernacular classical idiom are becoming increasingly rare, a walk around Sligo town will easily give witness to that.

My own practise takes great care to try and work with such structures – yes I agree that the idea of retention of facade only makes a nonsense of the principles of conservation, and would’nt countenance anything of the kind myself.

That said the ‘This is the only site my client owns’ attitude is really appalling and not worthy of serious consideration as an argument against conservation. Tough!! let him fulfil his obligations under the Acts as the owner of a protected structure.

As to the assertions of ‘students’ assessing the building in question – well I find that extremely hard to believe – we as a practise are very involved in teh preparation of conservation reports and assessments. These are pretty much mandatory for protected / prospective protected structures and usually require a significant amount of expertise in their preparation.

I know the building in question – having taken the liberty of having a look at it and doing a little research myself on foot of earlier postings on this thread. Its no masterpiece – I’ll grant you that, however it does have an urban significance and a level of architectural importance which meriits protection. There is also the side issue of historical association, the Yeats connections are significant enough – not exactly a doghouse!!.

The answer – ignor teh facade tretention option and work with the existing structure -better architects than you have done so, Lutyens, Oliver Hill (a founder of MARS and CIAM and a commited modernist and historic buildings specialist) and of course our old favorite Carlo Scarpa (apply some of your own ‘special understanding of his work here).

I suspect that if you do so your client won’t exactly end up out of pocket.

Sorry but I’ve no sympathy for you on this one.

James, for a fellow who does not want to get involved you sure have a lot to say and all of it patronising.

Whether you think I’m up to the job or otherwise is irrelevant really.

Due to the unconventional planning arrangement to work with the limited lanes and still give every house owner a decent view and sunlight, double height, duplex apartments and emphasis of high quality materials all of which were supported and instigated by our client (who you have slagged and suggested is a quick money grabber) the margins are so tight that economically the project cannot work without the replacement of Teeling House: A building that has no historic merit and neither Yeats nor his dog nor his aunty Nellie stayed in.

Please don’t mention Scarpa to me again, In 1963 after the completion of Querini Stampalia Foundation, the Italian Newspaper Oggi interview him and asked what he most desired now as an architect” A clean sheet and a fresh pallette” was his reply.

Scarpa understood the cultural importance of conseravation balanced with new design

Moreover James I don’t think you are being straight with me, if you have an interest you should declare it and if involved with An Taisce let me and everyone else know.

Hey the decision was made

enough about starting witch-hunt for an organisation that is around a lot longer than you have been. Has had the patronage of many much greater than you

Take it to Europe if you have a problem.

As I made it very clear I will be a member of An Taisce from Monday the 22nd of December 2003

Fair play Paul you just ensured they get a life subscription.

Ther is nothing to be ashamed about joining past members such as

Cearbhil O’Dalaigh

Sean McBride

Arthur Cox

Claiming membership while being out of subscription is a far worse thing.

Being an independent consultant must mean that and no I was not not a member prior to this

and yes I gave a donation to Lancefort and yes looking at the finished job I concede they (Westin) did a good job

Sorry Paul , you’ve floored even me with that bit of detective work.

I am new to working in your country and acutely aware of the sensitivities involved as an outsider believe me. But our client is absolutely committed to making this a high qulity project for his town and has invested sustantially in the region of £40,000.

And to dismiss this out of hand and then say “take it to Europe” is out of order, in my view

Spencer Dock expended €1m plus it still didn’t make it the right project. This is not Dallas

True enough Diaspora ……..I think though “mendacity” means the same in Dallas as Dublin.

There is a big difference between consulting i.e. giving untied options to two organisations

Yes options. A lot different than losing all objectivitiy or playing the role of advocate. therefore advising on the basis of what may suit your client to the cost of objectivity

As for member there are two definitions firstly of an organisation that means you must pay a subscription.

Secondly a professsional body meaning that you must work objectively

a little like the conquistadors I believe the lure of oro

[a little like the conquistadors I believe the lure of oro [/B][/QUOTE]

if u are comparing an taisce to the conquistadors i must applaude u. yes they are very similiar. they went, they savaged all around them and then left leaving the natives of the country in a worse state.
ur policy of lets protect everything is absurd. and using the most flimsy of evidence and arguments u win because of sympathies within decision making bodies. these bloody old buildings should be in a museum. if u have to protect every thing then how are we going to progress as a nation. we are viewed and a small minded, backword and catholic nation and an taisce are not helping with the rest of us breaking our balls trying to change that.

Fin,

sorry to give you a history lesson but the conquistadors were Spanish Catholics

The Aztecs, Mayans and Incas were the ones who lost their civilisations.

It was the Conquistadors who tore down American temples and built their houses.

It was the conquistadors who melted down priceless gold jewllery for bullion.
It was Drake who stole a good deal of that Bullion.

It was Irishmen like Roger Casement pronounced casey-mente who challenged the mess that was left behind.

As for An Taisce they as now could have done very little to prevent such wanton destruction.

That would have been An Bord Pleanala the people who actually decide.

i suggest u read and understand what i said before repling…

Originally posted by Diaspora
Hey the decision was made

enough about starting witch-hunt for an organisation that is around a lot longer than you have been. Has had the patronage of many much greater than you

Take it to Europe if you have a problem.

That comment is just extraordinary!
Speaks volumes

Fin you make about four statements that directly contradict each other.

Savage and conquistador go together.

Protect and decision makers interpreting the Local Government (planning and Development) Acts go together.

Backward and Conquistador go together.

Protect and non-sectarian go together.

I just fail to see how tearing down Historic Buildings progresses anything. This was a development proposal not an essential infrastructural project.

At the discretion of professional planners

You could do with two years under Paul Clinch

i have never heard of him nor do i care to be honest.

“I just fail to see how tearing down Historic Buildings progresses anything. This was a development proposal not an essential infrastructural project.”
how about the progress of that particular area developing it so as to improve it’s locality. sligo in in dire need of it. and was it not the politicions who decided not the planners? and i am quite sure from intense lobbying from ur organisition. as it’s not the planners which decide the listing of buildings.

now i was comparing an taisce to the conquistors. where exactly did i contradict myself 4 times as u seemed a wee bit vague.

No your wrong Diaspora. It was also an infrastructure proposal, we were working directly with Sligo Council’s regeneration proposals for the regeneration of the area around the Courtyard.

Fin, “Patronising” and “Mendacity” are the same when translated into Spanish.

Fin The ability of any non-government organisation to lobby Councillors in any part of Ireland is virtually non existent.

No two things do it, Frnak Dunlop and the Lure of Buildings that lose their shine a couple of years after construction.

Make no mistake Sligo will develop, but to do so it requires architects with the skill of Alan D to design.

But to do so in places that do not involve levelling existing streetscapes. My own interpretation is that the side elevation is actually more striking than the front.

Who is Paul Clinch?

UCD planning School,

Having explained the difference between objectiveness and advocacy I have no desire to return to villifying individuals or organisations.

However any attempt to compare a National Trust with the Conquistadores is possibly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

To be considered patronising for explaining the difference in basic english is

well advocacy

they show the exact same regard for the people and welfare of the area so i don’t think it is that ridiculous.

Ridiculous,

Go to Potosoi in Bolivia sometime visit the mines where two million slaves died mining gold and Silver, where they are still working twenty hour days for about $5 a week.

Look at the ecological devastation of that region.

The only people that have shown any regard for the people of Sligo are companies that actually provide unique employment such as Abbott Labs.

Anyone developing property to service this is capitalising on their investment.

Done cleverly it is called regeneration done badly it is called hacking

ahhh! capitalism is great isn’t it. this is what we encourage as it develop’s our country.there is nothing wrong with it as long as it’s done according to the rules. when the rules change halfway so that it can’t happen ie change a building so it’s listed then we have got to ask the question of why is this happening. to deny a person this liberty because of some unknown reason other than it was built a long time ago is th only thing that is ridiculous.

ok ur talking about bolivia. yes all that did happen so what is an taisce at objecting to developments in the country where it brings economical devestation to an area when people are forced to move elsewhere. it may not be the same but the similiarity is striking.

oh! and yes i agree it has to be done properly but that is for the planners to judge. and hacking????

Diaspora, No tengo ningun deseo a los embrass usted mas lejos en esta materia pero decirle eran ningun un miembro An Taisce era secreto y absurdo

I am currently a consultant, who accepted the generous offer of the use of offices. I am not an employee nor a paid up member.

When a planning consultant does an appraisal for the GAA they do not get a free membership. Nor or they considered staff

Fin They did

who did?
and that’s a fair point that u are just a consultant and i’m not getting at u personally but at the organisation.

The planners,

I am not trying to be personal, I actually quite like many aspects of this design. I acknowledge the need for towns like Sligo to become engines of growth.

Architects need to work around period buildings in many places. The retention of one Georgian property beside and stitched into the Mercer building at Charlemount St in Dublin is a perfect example of this.

The 2000 planning act sets out very clear guidelines following these guidelines saves everybody a lot of pain. If the rules are followed An Taisce has nothing to object to nor do they wish to. September the 18th saw An Taisce giving awards to developments that were a credit to the entire industry

Everybody wins the real bonus to Sligo in this proposal is not a facade, it is the creation of a new urban space to the side of the property.

Is that not enough?

To understand An Taisce understand two things from an outsiders perspective who has spent three months analyising the org.

They have two objectives that are relevant here.

Firstly the protection of built heritage, retaining a diversity of heritage not just palladian set pieces but also vernacular buildings that form part of a streetscape and contribute to that streetscape .

Secondly strengthening the urban core of places like Sligo, through encouraging Sustainable development such as the opening of the side of the building up as a rejuvinated civic space.

If there were no An Taisce or similar organisation this country would resemble a series of donought urban centres.

How many Liffey Valleys do we want?

Your still not getting this are you, Diaspora.

We cannot build this scheme and keep the quality with Teeling House retained. Physically we cannot construct it and get contractors through with Teeling House retained It does not stack up, unless I guess An Taisce would be willing to put it’s money where it’s mouth is and contribute financially?

Incidently I visit Sligo once every two or three weeks. When was the last time you were there?

Truthfully now.

What proportion of Net Usable floor space is contained within the front of the property?

As for purchase it is not the responsibility of any of the hundred National Trusts in the world to buy devopers out when they are refused planning consent.

I am sorry the sums don’t stack up

As for Sligo it is a long time since I was in Sligo it must be about five years. I go to Westport quite a bit

Originally posted by Diaspora
The 2000 planning act sets out very clear guidelines following these guidelines saves everybody a lot of pain. If the rules are followed An Taisce has nothing to object to nor do they wish to.

Don’t you mean An Taisce’s interpretation of the planning acts.

An Taisce only receives notification of developments relating to protected structures.

Of course An Taisce will have an interpretation as will the applicant.

However when applicants ignore the fact that a specific building is a protected structure it is they who are in contravention of the regulations.

To make An Taisce redundant in the planning process do not apply to demolish protected structures.

Then they can concentrate on managing their property portfolio and educating the next generation.

You sit in a converted Georgian Mansion in Dublin as a member of An Taisce and their planning consultant and pontificate to the people of Sligo about what they can and can’t do, quoting Bolivia and UCD and Spanish Gold having only visited maybe in the last five years and because you like going to Westport quite a bit.

Can I quote you in my presentation reports, when I take it to Europe?

i love ur little fairy-tale world.
sometimes i go into my own little world where nobody objects to my projects at all.

i would like to know how someone joins an taisce and can they just use their name in objecting…because diaspora it’s not just in protected structure that an taisce object.

No you can tell me the proportion of Net Usable floor space that you have been refused.

Then the calculator comes comes out to establish the marginal benifit of that space in relation to the overall development

Then the discussion resumes

Fin if you know of any such individual you should contact the administation of An Taisce, they would have no problem rooting out a bad apple from their cart.

Regarding objections protected structures or habitats or areas of special amenity value. Or development s that would significantly impact on important protected structures.

An Taisce objects to a very small proportion of developments that are applied for.

The organisation is not anti-development simply pro sustainability

Diaspora, I would’nt send you down the road for a pint of milk and ten woodbine. You’d likely spend the money on a bottle of Ginger Beer then tell me a big boy took it off you

Goodbye. right enough.

“Of course An Taisce will have an interpretation as will the applicant.”

An Taisce are rarely so keen to awknowledge the validity of others opinions

“However when applicants ignore the fact that a specific building is a protected structure it is they who are in contravention of the regulations.”

I do not know enough about the specific application to comment but I believe that they viewed the building as not having sufficient merit.
I do not know if an application to remove it’s protected structure classification was submitted. I think you might agree that when the various classes of listings transferred to protected structures some buildings of dubious importance were elevated to a ridiculous extent.

“To make An Taisce redundant in the planning process do not apply to demolish protected structures.”

That would be fine if an Taisce restricted their objections to protected structures; They seem to see themselves as the guardians of good planning in the face of the philistine advance & not just as another special interest pressure group.

“Then they can concentrate on managing their property portfolio and educating the next generation”

We really are not worthy

.

Do you have any idea of what I was refering to in regard to either the properties or education.

The properties relate to sixteen important buildings and habitats, they charge no admission to these sites they are free to the people of Ireland.

The education is a partenership with local authorites and local businesses to educate children to recylcle and carry out tidying up in their own areas.

Yes you are worthy LOB you are also welcome to visit any of these properties,

and you are welcome to see the next generation act in a much more environmentally responsible way.

As for other development County and City plans are clear,

Permissable Use

Site density

Plot Ratio

Standard of design

Protected Structure

Not An Taisce’s system but the local Authorities and ABP

If AT were so incorrect why are their objections listened to?

Any objections that is submitted must first be OK’d by people that know what they are doing.

As for philistines it is not a word that AT would ever use,

unrealistic expectations for a particular site to carry that quantum of development would be closer to contemporary An Taisce

Aye right enough Diaspora, I believe you.

In Scotland we have a saying that “conservation is the last refuge of the third class honours degree” ……….or roughly translated from Bolivian Spanish” If yer in a hole stop diggin, senor”

Goodbye

“The properties relate to sixteen important buildings and habitats, they charge no admission to these sites they are free to the people of Ireland.”

very laudable it is-I note you say 16 Important buildings. Do you accept that there exist other buildings of limited architectural merit which should not be protected for merely surviving this long?

“The education is a partenership with local authorites and local businesses to educate children to recylcle and carry out tidying up in their own areas.”

again of merit, but I believe we are discussing An Taisce’s view of Development.

“As for other development County and City plans are clear,

Permissable Use

Site density

Plot Ratio

Standard of design

Protected Structure

Not An Taisce’s system but the local Authorities and ABP

If AT were so incorrect why are their objections listened to?”

Not quite as clear cut as you might think & An Taisce’s views are not always treated as sacrosanct by Local Authorities & ABP

“As for philistines it is not a word that AT would ever use”

or consider to be the case?

“The properties relate to sixteen important buildings and habitats, they charge no admission to these sites they are free to the people of Ireland.”

so an taisce would only object to 16 projects?

“The education is a partenership with local authorites and local businesses to educate children to recylcle and carry out tidying up in their own areas.”

your the tidy towns in disguise!!!!!!

“Any objections that is submitted must first be OK’d by people that know what they are doing. “

what! local professionials who see the need for regeneration of the local enviorns or desk jockies in dublin

“As for philistines it is not a word that AT would ever use,”
they might never use but do they believe it!

“unrealistic expectations for a particular site to carry that quantum of development would be closer to contemporary An Taisce “

unrealistic expectations..who decides this! you? how can an taisce determine what is unrealistic.

2.1 Alan

I Was also awarded the Only prize for the core subject of my honours Degree

The one person who got the 1:1 is an exceptional individual and I have no problem being behind him

And you still have answered the question on net usable floor space as a proportion of the development.

As you contend this development was only viable at 100% why not talk about what proportion you were actually offered.

och I was only pulling your leg , I can tell your a clever man. All that stuff about conquist….conquest………..conquist…… Spanish soldiers and gold and quotes and everything.

But you can surely understand why I don’t trust you. Won’t send you anything, consequently.

Best keep your opinions about An Taisce private as well, without those figs your argument could never hold the Garravogue

I like your work but not not your opinions on the people I am consulting to

No one reads anything on this site anyway Diaspora, that’s why An Taisce doesn’t feel the need to plant people who pretend to be what they’re not ……..(I suspect James is also from An Taisce? ) so there’s no need therefor for the threat.

As for holding the Garravogue, well we’ll see.

If we are successful in the end the people of Sligo will have a first class contemporary project which we and our client will have worked very hard to pull of, despite the people you are supposedly consulting to.

I never pretended to be anything but at least had the decency to answer a direct question.

As for threats the only thing that has been threatened is a protected structure.

Brilliant, fucking brilliant retort

Think you obviously were robbed of that 1st class honours, myself.

Maybe see you in Sligo soon? It’s about an hour south from Donegal on the west Coast. Can’t miss it, it’s got a big limestone land mass on it’s western edge.

The people are very, very friendly but unfortunately know a chancer when they see one.

Not at all Alan You’ll have to have a pint in that Georgian Mansion.

Which was originally a guild hall, no the Irish Georgian Society got most of the Set Pieces they got left with the habitats and the odd union hall

Give me a shout if your in Dublin I owe you pint at this stage

I believe the expression is a ‘Chancy man’

Think I’d rather sit on the sharp end of a short stick, Diaspora.

No offence mind and thanks anyway

Ouch. its a barbed world we live in

Fin said: “[An Taisce] went, they savaged all around them and then left the natives of the country in a worse state” ?

This is Jackie Healy Rae stuff.

Whose side are the architectural community on anyway?

The whole of rural Ireland villifiy An Taisce because they (rural Ireland) want to build dormer-windowed Georgian bungalows all over the landscape and An Taisce manage to prevent about one in 200 of these being built.

Alan – You are that rare thing, A Complete and Utter Gobshite!!.

I think that I said earlier on this thread that the architectural profession needs to do some growing up. It seems to be particularly true of your postings. You obviously have talent, its a pity that you’re also thin skinned and egotistical – not a pleasant combination.

You bash away at the old “we wuz robbed” line because you failed to address arelatively straightforward issue surrounding the conservation of an existing building.

You plug the ‘An Taisce’ thing as if it was actually something to be ashamed of to take an interest in the environment and conservation.

Personally I enjoy conservation work because it enables me to get into the skin of another architect and see things from his perspective, because it involves a different type of problem to the ones usually encountered i nnew build work and because you don’t have to be part of the overblown architectural beauty parade. However for myself the bulk of my work is new build and rather good stuff at that.

You seem to have a problem with that.

I’m an ex member and ex council member of An Taisce and am very proud of my time with them. I don’t agree with everythig that they do or say but the’yre commited to long term improvement of environment, most are volunteers and they’re not afraid of the development lobby (by which I mean the Healey Rae types and the Mohair Suit brigade).

As to your extraordinary rants at those who disagree with you and your repeated self aggrandisement – Frankly its embarassing. You repeatedly refuse to discuss the architectural merits of the actual proposal one way or another reject any form of true discussion.

Thats why I don’t feel much inclination to get involved in this thread – Its impossible to discuss this situation (and it is an interesting one) in a non confrontational manner with you.

Now I’m aware that this reply is lengthy and thatI am not exactly being temperate in my comments, however your tone throughout is really appalling, and rude, and dismissive.

if the above post lasts til morning i’ll fall over with shock

Ach and here was I thinking that you James and Diaspora might be decent fellows after all….once I got to know you.

“A Complete and Utter Gobshite” , eh?

It’s not a phrase we use much in Scotland and take it it’s not really a term of endearment? Starting each word with capitals too for emphasis, don’t tell me you are the fellow with the 1st Class Honours , Diaspora was refering to earlier?

As for arguement, I have stated our case quite clearly throughtout this topic, you are just not interested in reading it.

an taisce in force…good to see that we are monitored anyway…and who is this healy rae???? and it’s nice of you to have an interest in country people having their own houses from ur desk in dublin and ur semi d in some estate.

Alan,

I have nothing to do with James he is an ex-member. I will go further to say that type of introduction does nobody any good.

Having looked at that type of reply I am beginning to see why people get so peed off with the organisation.

Because I have no problem putting it on the record, I disagree with one aspect of your design.

Forgive me Diaspora but there’s no point in trying to backtrack now. Once you press that wee “submit reply” button…….. well it’s out there, floating round the ether. The rule is the same for us all.

How quick you were to jump in after James’s earlier comments, instantly dismissing our clients significant investment in his home town and our work which has taken over a year to produce , with a “Take it to Europe”

I doubt if you would be making such a statement now, had Paul not twigged that you were connected to An Taisce despite telling me and Fin that this was not the case.

Signed
The Gobshite ( Complete and Utter )

There is a huge difference between today and yesterday, his first response didn’t insult you directly.

You went for the AT button without any justification yesterday.

Take it to Europe is always a reference to not really analysing your credible options. Really Alan have you never had this in Scotland, Architects are there to be shot at here.

His second response took no account of all that was said yesterday.

I wouldn’t knock your design abilities,
I simply differ with you on protected structures.

And I like the way member has become connected.

Alan we’re all connected to a lot of clients, and notice the way I have left your client out.

We are looking at this from a different perspective, we all have our opinions;
all that anyone can ask is that we respect each other if not the positions.

And no you may not sign your name Gobshite

you need at least three family members on a county council the first two in a party and another de-selected for corruption prior to attaining that particular doctorate.

Fin: Since when do you have to be a member of An Taisce to think the countryside is being wrecked by white bungalows?

Is that what this is about Devin, protecting rural Ireland from white bungalows?

In March 2003, the County Manager of Sligo was walking around council chambers with our planning application under his arm, telling everyone who would listen, including our client that this was the best application the council had ever received .

Tomorrow we will get official notification that it has been refused.

I wondered at the start of this topic how anything ever gets build in Ireland, and am still bewildered.

All comes back to my definition of Gobshite.

Diaspora, do you ever go home?

I am going to the second one for a few weeks in March

I only responded because one off houses and your development don’t merit discussion on the same thread.

I think in one sense they are interlinked.

As an outsider I am frankly amazed that anyone pays the slightest bit of attention to anything An Taisce says, unlike our own Historic Scotland the have no legal jurisdiction.

They may be an organisation with an illustrious past that includes a roll cal of great men and women but in my dealings I have found them to be patronising and inept and I think that view is upheld by other contributers to this site. In fact if there is anyone out there who will speak up for the organisation I would be happy to hear it…apart from those who are part of it.

I have just been told it is because of the role the organisation plays in protecting rural Ireland from white bungalows.

Just to clarify that Alan Historic Sotland has no legal status or An Taisce has no legal Status?

Historic Scotland is a legal entity.

If you do not get listed building consent from Historic Scotland, where your project involves the demolition or alteration to a listed building, then that project cannot be undetaken, even if you get planning approval.

Makes for a clearer system. The problem here is that no-one plays by the rules. People in Scotland simply wouldn’t applly for certain projects because you have a clearer picture of the likely outcome.

Possibly because the planning system has never been defined on a local level. The County Development plans have a multitude of worthy and often conflicting objectives.

While not dealing in any meaningful way with plot ratios or other indicators that would give you a clearer indication.

Where An Taisce is a statutory body here is to observe and comment on the planning process
it was granted this role in the Local Government (planning & Development) Act of 1963.

To get the context for An Taisce you should get a copy of Frnak McDonalds destruction of Dublin. It is also closer to the NTS than historic scotland.

The organisation still has relevance I feel, however I will concede that some within the organisation can be far too dogmatic at times.

It is an evolutionary world we live in subject to a few and everdiminishing number of regulations

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/property/2001/0913/prop11.htm

Frank has helped me in the past get things published in the Irish Times and
I have his book ” The Construction of Dublin” in front of me right now. In fact I took it on holiday last year, in an attempt to understand how things were done in reland and a good read it was too. We invited him over to speak in Scotland a couple of years back.

Can’t see the connection yet with regional. centres though but better understand the politics.

nice article alan, i have also admired the centre for advanced studies, didnt know sam stephenson did it though. and the point about modernism going well with the clean lines of a georgian city was well said. i think we have an amazingly sophisticated group of young-ish architects from such a small population base in ireland and they could definitely hold their own against anything coming out of london. we dont have the strict minimalists or the flamboyant gesturing ego-maniacs, we have something in between, i think its a quite and knowlegable refinement.
anyway thats probably got nothing to do with this tread

Bloody well said and whether you think so now, Temple Bar has been very influential to everyone involved in urban regeneration, myself included.

As much as any of the buildings listed on the great Irish Buildings thread

out of interest, is Temple Bar admired internationally as a case study for regeneration?

ive seen it in a book giving world-class examples of urban regeneration schemes alongside potsdammer platz and the like.

Well of course. ro_G

As an exampler of positive, small scale designer led regeneration. St against the big scale developer proposals. Also as a model to bring people back into city centres, to live and work and for recreation. Remember it replaced SOM’S transporation interchange, taking people out of Dublin

I know it’s hard to believe it, when tripping over drunken Glaswegians over for a stag night courtesy of Ryanair .

What?, do you know the name of that book? Sounds like it would be interesting.

alan could your client perhaps obtain funding from some conservation source to help with the project? seems silly for it to just end after so much time?

cant remember the name of the book read it a few years ago, its in bolton street library if your around that way. i have to say though, that when i was reading it (objectivley) temple bar stood out from them all as being by far the most sensitive regeneration of an area without resorting to pastiche or overprotection of old buildings of questionable worth.

http://www.reflectingcity.com/0305.htm

Good info on Temple Bar attached.

take it to ’em alan. an bord pleanala need excitable architects to rustle their feathers a bit. good luck with it

Thank you sw101, sincerely.

Just looking at the images again, the proposed building assumes the same status as the monument (courthouse) rather than deferring. Has this been done sucessfully anywhere else?

define “assumes the same status”… ?????

Don’t agree that our proposal is striving for the same status Devin.. prefer to think it compliments

I found it a bit strange ….. the idea that one building should somehow defer to another. It seems to belong to another age, perhaps when the courthouse itself was built in 1878, or the council Chambers at time when you tipped your cap perhaps to your betters and understood the social and political heirarchy.

Strange also Devin the term “monument”

The courthouse is a significant building, no doubt about it, the best exmple of high victorian gothic outside Dublin. That’s why I’ve drawn it in detail and with as much sensitivity as I could mustre.

Maybe i am totally off track here, but this reminds me slightly of the extention to the Town Hall in Dun Laoghaire. I know that in the Sligo case it is a new building and not adjoined to the courthouse, but from those sketches which I saw it looked like the new building would compliment the older courthouse and in fact make it more prominant. In the Dun Laoghaire example the new extension works exellently on its own merit but also compliments the older building and highlights it.

indeed but unfortunately there is no point telling the blind(an taisce). they see what they want to see.

What I meant was the architectural balance between monument (the courthouse) and small scale grain (teeling house & adjoining 2 storey terraces). The Dublin Quays are a good example of this, where the spectacular 4 courts and custom house sit amongst the low key Georgian grain. Ok, the setting of the custom house has been engulfed by a lot of crap over time, but you can still get the effect around the 4 courts.

I think the proposed building for sligo is a cracker – were it that that every development site in ireland was subject to this level of architectural input. Just dont know if its right for beside the courthouse. But hey, this thread has been over all that already.

With regard to my original question, the extension to Dun Laoghaire town hall might be an example of what I’m talking about.

I take your point Devin, to a degree.

The two storey terraces are charming and were I an american tourist visiting the west coast they would be conducive to what I thought Sligo and other regional towns should be…….. or a remider of why my relatives left in the first place.

Many still have stable doors at the front but I have visited many of the residents and none have horses.

The back areas where the horses used to graze are derelict and the rooms in the terraces incredibly small and poorly serviced. The small grain is very appealing, unless you are an owner trying to sell.

Time to move on……….I respectfully suggest

Why Because the property values are more important than the urban grain?

Originally posted by alan d

Time to move on……….I respectfully suggest

In this case I totally agree
Good luck with the appeal Alan

How historic preservation relates to architecture and to the development of cities, in the words of The New Yorker’s architecture critic, Paul Goldberger (Jan/Feb 2004 issue of Preservation): http://www.nationaltrust.org/magazine/current/shortanswer.htm

I like this article Trace and would be sympathetic to many of the comments it contained.

As an architect though I am absolutely against the whole process of listing because it starts off as a measure to protect buildings of architectural or historic significance and ends up as a means for a blanket coverage……..cases for the removal of buildings and their replacement with new structures should be argued on their merits and the architect should be prepared to take this on, in my view. With the proviso that it should be replaced with something better.

Not every old building is Penn Station , some have outlived their usefulness as structures consequently in Glasgow many Victorian Buildings built as offices or warehouses or post offices are now empty shells which we can’t remove. That’s daft.

In contrast though we have just completed work on Glasgow’s Central Station a grade A listed structure built in 1907, which is still the major station in the west of Scotland and in itself a brilliant structure. But significantly it works and I doubt if anyone could replace it with anything better.

alan i am sorry to read this it seems very unfair i loved this project can you appeal?. anyway good luck whatever happens

……. oops Mike S almost missed this.

Appeal? Don’t know yet our client has yet to decide the next step. He is not a developer and has already commited a considerable amount of money.

Thanks for your good wishes

Can someone provide me with a list of the councillors and who voted which way in each vote?

http://www.unison.ie/sligo_champion/stories.php3?ca=34&si=1091533&issue_id=10145

For ( Hooray)

Ald. D Bree, Clr.V. Cawley, Clr. A. Gibbons,
Clr. C Macmanus, Ald. S Macmanus

Against ( Boo Hiss )

Clr. T Cummins, Clr. J Devins, Clr.S. Dolan,
Clr. M. Lyons, Clr. T McLoughlin.