Why was "The Ballymun Housing Scheme" a failure?

I’m not an architect but I think three main reasons. The heroin epidemic of the 1980s is the main one, a lack of suitable facilities for people in the area and just poor design: large open green spaces seemed like a good idea at the time, instead dense housing settlement should have taken place all around smaller green spaces as this has been found to discourage anti-social behaviour. A knock on problem from the failure of the old ballymun is it gave high rise a bad name in Dublin and that is a legacy the city continues to live with.

Jaz – What people ‘think’ will be of limited use for the production of a good thesis. Facts! If you dig I’m sure you’ll find that Ballymum ‘failed’ (you’ll need to define your terms) because of a negative cycle of multiple deprivation (Income – Employment – Health – Education …..), coupled with economic conditions that prevailed in inner city Dublin areas from the 70s through 90s and exacerbated by poor to non-existent management and maintenace of the area and the built environment. Architectural determinism (tower block produce poverty!) is a very hot potato and needs careful handling. Look at the Barbican in London – an extreemly successful large scale, tower blocked, residental neighbourhood. That said there is more and more research on how design effects performance (widely interpreted. Two useful starting points for estates are:
– http://www.spacesyntax.com/
– http://www.csiss.org/classics/content/41
– http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0948096004/104-5465469-3955129?v=glance&n=283155 – uses some rather dubious reseach methodology! Interesting book though. If you do read the book there is a particular concentration on the ‘notoriuos’ Mozart Estate in Westmintser. I’ve since worked there since the revamp. A somewhat transformed place. Still, design only goes so far.
– http://www.sustainingtowers.org/

cheers, Shane

Jdivision – You must have been writing a reply at the same time as myself. The ‘thinks’ bit was in no way aimed at you just stressing a need to ground such a thesis in evidence based findings. That said, increasing the density, all things being equal, is no guarantee of success. Ballymum as everybody knows is actually low-medium density. Darndale would be much higher density .. no great success. Its how a neighbourhood is put together – socaially, economicially and physically that makes it work or not. Ballymum was something of a diaster on all fronts.

Jaz – Suggest you go out to Ballymum and get the residents perspective – not just an academic one. Again be careful of partial surveys. Good luck – Shane

My family moved in to Thomas Clarke Tower in 1970. I know a lot of people may not beleive this, but for many of the early residents moving to Ballymun was like going to heaven in the early days. People had tremedous pride and felt so positive about living there. We lived there for a few years and then to a larger flat on Shangan Avenue.

I can tell you for a fact why Ballymun “failed”:

1) Refugee Camp Mentality – Like Tallaght and Neilstown about a decade later, working class Dubliners were considered vermin by the rural ethos of this Irish state. Working class Dubliner were to be removed from the vista of the gaelic aspirations of the Irish state filled with its rural TDs and Civil Servants who created “housing schemes” and more or less ethnically cleansed traditional Dublin working class neighbourhoods in the city centre and deported them en-masse to Ballymun. Once there they were left to rot and neglected.

If you were from Ballymun Flats and had an issue pretaining to anything you needed repaired in the Flats chances are you encoutered some roasary bead mauling biddy from Mayo in the Corpo on Jervis Street who treated you as if you were honoured to have her even look sneeingly at you.

2) Abandondment – Once in Ballymun we were expected to fend for ourselves. While the Government ploughed vast sums into GAA clubs and Farmers Co-ops from Donegal to Kerry, the same did not apply to people in Ballymun (or any part of urban Ireland for that matter). We did not fit the image of the barefoot maidens dancing at the crossroads and represented a uncomfortable reminder that Ireland was hardly the mono-cultural farming fantasyland the guardians of the state whished it to be.

3) Decay – If you are not going to develop a community then you are hardly going to fix it up when it starts falling apart. (I mean this in every sense, social and economic)

4) Bad timing. Ballymun gets built…arab oil crises leading to massive ecnomic downturn…heroin shows up. One mess after the next.

5) The Oirish problem with buildings over 4 stories. “Ye don’t see them yokes in Mayo, so deas must be bad news!” – this still prevails. But not as bad as it used to be.

6) Tallaght and Neilstown – The community in Ballymun collasped when most of them moved enmasse to West Dublin in the early to mid 1980’s in most cases to much worse circumstances. Even they believe that a coal fire in a freezing house in the middle of nowhere was better than 24×7 free hot water and central heating in Ballymun Flat for no other reason that “it’s a house”.

7) No jobs in Ballymun and terrible public transport led to a situation were the ones who were left isolated and unable to get back into life. Middle class orgaisations such as the Labour Party and SIPTU never expressed an interest in the people of Ballymun. The Trade Unions members were too busy having the name of their street changed from Ballymun Ave to “Glasnevin Ave”. This is why people in Ballymun have always rejected the so called working class lobbies such as the Trade Unions and the Labour Party as we saw them for the phonies they were.

Now having said all this, Ireland is a much better country now and is a much more mature society. Ballymun is for all it faults has a place of fantastic community spirit which unless you have come face to face with it – is hard for an outsider to believe. It really is something eles how people in Ballymun look after each other. The hatred of working class Dubliners is no longer an agenda of the Irish Government and civil service – and the Ballymun Regeneration Project proves this.

To sum up, I think that Ballymun “failed” in an Irish social sense because it was perhaps too modern for the Dev’s Holy Catholic Rural Ireland and it created a negative reaction to the Irish, who think people can only live in bungalows on an acre of land. I think if Ballymun was built today, it would have got a lot more TLC from Irish Government and society as a whole. A freind of mine who stills lives there once summed it up beautifully. “If we want to make the rest of Ireland respect and cherish Ballymun then paint the flats white and tatch the roof of the towers”.

Ireland was not ready for the Ballymun Flats when they were first built.

Regarding the ‘thinks’ versus ‘facts’ argument above, while obviously a good thesis will be based on fact, it might also be a good idea to consider having a chapter on the effects of popular perception and how the Ballymun project was perceived by society (perception would have had an impact on things such as employment etc – the old argument about not getting a job despite your qualifications just because of your address). Certainly, it might be worth considering this issue as it definately informed the public and media image of the project.

All – Does anybody have any information on the ‘new’ Ballymun. I’ve not been up that way in the past few years (as I live in London) but have heard that the transformation is quite comprehensive and of decent quality – knitting Ballymun back into the city (with a traffic spawning Ikea into the bargin!). Any images? Also, does anybody know if the towers came down due to structural issues or as a ‘symbol’ of progress. A small fortune could have been made selling them off and reinvesting the money on the wider area. If memory serves some French bloke toke an environmental case to court against their demolition. Undersatndable: sustainability means startung and using waht you’ve got. Finally, PDLL the perception side of the debate could fill a book in itself. Cute Panda mentions that most of the original residents thought they’d gone to heaven – most of the early commentary on this and TV (RTE has a done a couple of programmes over the years on the area) images also take to the utopian stance. One has to remember that these estates – hundreds of them here in London – were built in that vane (is this the right spelling – vein?). Try, if you can, and get hold of this love letter to the tower block – amazing:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300054440/qid=1138878695/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/104-5465469-3955129?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

Good luck! Shane

It seems to me like Ballymun was never maintained the way it should have been. All I can remember is them doing a bit of work on one smaller block a few years ago. I am glad to see them going.

Lots of info here: http://www.brl.ie/

The thesis title is a loaded question, assuming that the scheme failed.

There are two ways a project can be said to be a failure
A. If it fails to meet its goals (objective failure)
B. If it is seen to be a failure by those affected (subjective failure)

To measure objective failure you’d have to discover what the goals of the original project were or if there were any. You would also have to ask whether it was worse or better than other public housing schemes. Maybe the answer is that public housing was a failure and Ballymun was the highest profile public housing scheme.

Subjective failure is measured by asking people (residents, state, people from other parts fo the city) whether and why it failed.

Cute Panda….U R THE Bear !!!!
However,very few will be prepared to make the leap of faith necessary to embrace the truth of ur observations.
Being a Northsider myself I still refuse point blank to accept the veracity of “Glasnevin Avenue” or for that matter “Glasnevin North” as locations in Dublin.

The renaming of Ballymun Avenue was IMO a turning point in how BALLYMUN was to be regarded in the public eye.
Put at its simplest,It represented a reactionary howl from a propertied elite who were terrified at the prospect of thousands of barbarians being housed on what was virgin farmland just beyond their back gardens.
The totally unnecessary renaming SHOULD have been immediately followed by a renaming of the Flat complex to GLasnevin Heights and then watch the prissy lips pursing…!

To corraborate Pandas point 7 regarding public transport the Government of the day never even bothered to quantify the PT needs of the newly arrived Tower Dwellers a situation which saw CIE allocate a fleet of totally unsuitable single-deck buses to the 36 route.
This mismatch of resources was compounded by the decision to make the 36 Route One-Man-Operated which resulted in long queues of sodden passengers waitin patiently as they attemted to squeeze in through the single width folding door.

The real tragedy is how this stupidity was the accepted norm for many years and people merely accepted the level of overcrowding with stoicism,largely based I suppose on ignorance of any better.
It would have been quite simple in the context of the new 1960`s emerging Ballymun to have designated and implimented the area as a Public Transport hub with the availability of such earth shattering links as a Bus route to the Airport or (Shudder) even Swords.
Instead we still sit in our desks awaiting with bated breath a “New” Bus Atha Cliath Business Plan which if the leaks are correct is based upon the principle of HUBS !!!!……Heresy in some quarters…”How are the poor people going to get to the GPO Huh” 😮 ???

@Cute Panda wrote:

My family moved in to Thomas Clarke Tower in 1970. I know a lot of people may not beleive this, but for many of the early residents moving to Ballymun was like going to heaven in the early days. People had tremedous pride and felt so positive about living there. We lived there for a few years and then to a larger flat on Shangan Avenue.

I can tell you for a fact why Ballymun “failed”:

1) Refugee Camp Mentality – Like Tallaght and Neilstown about a decade later, working class Dubliners were considered vermin by the rural ethos of this Irish state. Working class Dubliner were to be removed from the vista of the gaelic aspirations of the Irish state filled with its rural TDs and Civil Servants who created “housing schemes” and more or less ethnically cleansed traditional Dublin working class neighbourhoods in the city centre and deported them en-masse to Ballymun. Once there they were left to rot and neglected.

If you were from Ballymun Flats and had an issue pretaining to anything you needed repaired in the Flats chances are you encoutered some roasary bead mauling biddy from Mayo in the Corpo on Jervis Street who treated you as if you were honoured to have her even look sneeingly at you.

2) Abandondment – Once in Ballymun we were expected to fend for ourselves. While the Government ploughed vast sums into GAA clubs and Farmers Co-ops from Donegal to Kerry, the same did not apply to people in Ballymun (or any part of urban Ireland for that matter). We did not fit the image of the barefoot maidens dancing at the crossroads and represented a uncomfortable reminder that Ireland was hardly the mono-cultural farming fantasyland the guardians of the state whished it to be.

3) Decay – If you are not going to develop a community then you are hardly going to fix it up when it starts falling apart. (I mean this in every sense, social and economic)

4) Bad timing. Ballymun gets built…arab oil crises leading to massive ecnomic downturn…heroin shows up. One mess after the next.

5) The Oirish problem with buildings over 4 stories. “Ye don’t see them yokes in Mayo, so deas must be bad news!” – this still prevails. But not as bad as it used to be.

6) Tallaght and Neilstown – The community in Ballymun collasped when most of them moved enmasse to West Dublin in the early to mid 1980’s in most cases to much worse circumstances. Even they believe that a coal fire in a freezing house in the middle of nowhere was better than 24×7 free hot water and central heating in Ballymun Flat for no other reason that “it’s a house”.

7) No jobs in Ballymun and terrible public transport led to a situation were the ones who were left isolated and unable to get back into life. Middle class orgaisations such as the Labour Party and SIPTU never expressed an interest in the people of Ballymun. The Trade Unions members were too busy having the name of their street changed from Ballymun Ave to “Glasnevin Ave”. This is why people in Ballymun have always rejected the so called working class lobbies such as the Trade Unions and the Labour Party as we saw them for the phonies they were.

Now having said all this, Ireland is a much better country now and is a much more mature society. Ballymun is for all it faults has a place of fantastic community spirit which unless you have come face to face with it – is hard for an outsider to believe. It really is something eles how people in Ballymun look after each other. The hatred of working class Dubliners is no longer an agenda of the Irish Government and civil service – and the Ballymun Regeneration Project proves this.

To sum up, I think that Ballymun “failed” in an Irish social sense because it was perhaps too modern for the Dev’s Holy Catholic Rural Ireland and it created a negative reaction to the Irish, who think people can only live in bungalows on an acre of land. I think if Ballymun was built today, it would have got a lot more TLC from Irish Government and society as a whole. A freind of mine who stills lives there once summed it up beautifully. “If we want to make the rest of Ireland respect and cherish Ballymun then paint the flats white and tatch the roof of the towers”.

Ireland was not ready for the Ballymun Flats when they were first built.

BEST POST EVER !. CP-can you provide some lessons on candid social commentary to some of the more
narratively challenged posters on this site 🙂

There’s yer thesis there J83. Are you just fishing for info or have you definitely chosen this as your topic?. What are you studying?. If this is an undergrad thesis you are biting off way more than you can chew with such a loaded term as failed.

FWIW there is a load of journal articles out there concerning Ballymun’s genesis and history. There is also a very fine book called Estates on the Edge in Bolton St. library that would be very useful. It looks at the problems of poorly designed housing schemes on urban peripheries across Europe, not just Ballymun

Personally I don’t think that Ballymun “failed” anymore that miserible suburbs in Cork and Dundalk failed in their own way. Ballymun just got far less attention (in fact none) from the Government, but the whole Irish concept of hatred towards urban living (“destroy it at all costs”) is the same reason why Ballymun failed as Limerick City failed – a Government and Civil Service made up of rosary bead mauling farmers sons and daughters who are hostile to anyting but rural/farming development.

This is same reason why a crackpot ideas like the Western Rail Corridor gets as much attention (if not more) as the Dublin Metro and why Claremorris will have more rail lines leading into it post Transport21 than Dublin, or have more rail services to that country hamlet than the cities of Cork, Limerick and Galway. Simply because a rural preist has demanded it so – and this is what matter. The prioritisation of the WRC in Transport21 proves that the argi-elite still have incredible power in this country and if the WRC was in any other country it would be laughed at.

There is an underlying hostility towards urban life in Ireland and likewise a cherishing of rural values and it stems from the Dev years. Look at the factory which went up in smoke in Longford and the molly-coddling the workforce got simply because of the connection to farming. If the same thing happens in Ballymun (if there was a factory there to begin with) no hotel would be booked by the social welfare people to hold the employees hands and constant RTE reports as if it was the greatest disaster ever to hit mankind.

The fear of under-representing the rural community strikes so piercingly at the heart of RT

Plenty of videos at http://www.reflectingcity.com/video.html?a=2&t=6&p=40. Should be useful to you.

Yes Graham, Ballymun had piped TV from the start. In the begining there was a UHF deflector on the top of James Connolly Tower and this picked up signals from the UK and they were “piped” into all the flats. There was no UTV in the early days on HTV as the ITV station as the aerial pointed across the Irish sea.

You are correct about the decline, it’s always a spiral, and then the “sinking ship” mentality kicks in. You are also stigmatised for where you come from with the most repugnant snobbery which you find hard can shake off . For instance, when I did my leaving cert I wanted to study Electronic Engineering at Kevin Street, so worried about my Ballymun address I ended up using one belonging to my uncle who was stationed with the army at Arbour Hill Barracks. So I put down Arbour Hill as my resident address. Of course, I would not have been discriminated by an educational body because I was from Ballymun, but the self-loathing is so ingrained in you that you believe yourself to be literally the scum of the earth simply because you lived in Ballymun. Now once again, I have state, that this has changed mainly becuase Irish society has changed. Being from Ballymun carries no real stigma now.

I think what makes Ballymun better now (I have been living in Sligo for the last few years but I still have freinds and family there) is that there is a real engagement with the local community. People are being consulted and their opinions listened to. There is a sense of ownership in the process. The economy of Ireland is much more different now and there are loads of jobs in and around Ballymun. But the bottom line is there is nothing like making people feel they matter, are valued, and are part of a process. This is why the Ballymun Regeneration won’t be a repeat of the past.

Speaking of RTE and their rural reporting or eles clause – have you ever noticed that the TG4 news, even though is is paid for by all Irish taxpayers is little more than a crass lobby for rural communities west of the Shannon. Were is the reporting balance between urban and rural on TG4?

Excellent thread-hi Thomas! Good to see you giving your perspectives here. I find myself in total agreement with you (not for the first time). I’ve had just about all that I can take of the ‘rural’, must have ‘balanced regional development’ rubbish which is basically an urban-hating agenda, you’re spot on with that. I point you to a picture I took the other day for a roads webiste I frequent-it was taken in darkest North Kildare, that bastion of the irish language :rolleyes:

It typifies the rural/gaelgoir BS we have shoved down our throats by the likes of Eamon O’Cuiv. I say we form the Liga Est, viva la revolution! Idyllic rural Ireland can fend for it’s idyllic self. No offence to anyone from outside the Pale btw, it’s the mentality of the ‘architects of Irish society’ I have a problem with, not the good folks of Mayo or wherever!

@murphaph wrote:

Pale btw, it’s the mentality of the ‘architects of Irish society’ I have a problem with, not the good folks of Mayo or wherever!

Indeed. It is not the average person who Mayo or Sligo who is anti-Dublin/Urban it is the bizzare orgaisation and egomanics which claim to represent rural Ireland – these organisation only serve the greedy farmers who have the destroyed the natual beauty of the Irish landscape.

Who do you think it was who killed off the Dublin Regional Authority which Bertie promised in 2000? Right now the Western Development Commision has more pull in Government than the 2 million residents of the East Coast.

If anybody has not read it yet, I suggest you get yourself a copy of Through Streets Broad and Narrow by Micheal Corchrane. The Book is about the once world-class tram system of Dublin (carried 60 million passengers in it’s final years and was closed so the Western Rail Corridor could be kept open for a another few years of empty trains through the West of Ireland) – within the pages of the book is a social history of how the Dev years viewed Dublin with no more importance in terms of its infrastructural needs, than the country hamlets of Clare and Mayo. Even if you are not interested in trams or trains – the book is a collossal read and great social history of were it all went wrong for urban Ireland during the mid to late 20th century. Even down the Dublin United Tramway company being forced to issue bi-lingual tickets (this was a company which had it all, zonal fares, integration with buses and late night services back in the 1920’s). The DUTC almost wnt bankrupt ordering new and adpating their ticketing machines so they could have “An Lar” on them in a Gaelic font.

It still goes on today as your signs proves. The Indo recent declaration of war on the Luas was a manifestation on this rural agri-elite and their agenda. “How dare they build something which enhances urban living!” The Indo journalists are nearly all farmers sons and daughters and hence their open hostility to Luas. Part of a cultural war waged by the pampered agri-elite on urban Ireland.

C Panda makes a very valid point on the DUTC`s far sightedness and innovative management style.
One could argue that the end of the DUTC`s input into Dublins Public Transport provision marked the very definite beginning of a spiral from which we show little signs of recovering from.
Today we see this “Interference” based rubbish continuing as both Bus Eireann and Bus Atha Cliath remain bound by Ministerial edict to display All destinations in either Irish only OR in dual format.
There exists no such requirement on any of the private operators,who as a result manage to get by by using English language destiantions only.
Even Bus Atha Cliath`s Digital or LED Destination Displays are prevanted from fulfilling their essential role of INFORMING the travelling public as to destinations by the requirement to include space hungry Irish translations rather than utilising the space to provide more comprehensive information which could be accessed by ALL rather than just the dwindling number of urban gaelgeoiri.
Not to put too fine a point on it there is now a far greater need for a Polish/Mandarin/Czech Destination translation than an Irish one……..
Come to think of it Mr deValera had Spanish blood in him did he not….????? 😉

Is this Archiseek Ireland or Archiseek Anglo-Saxon Dublin? I am not sure what much of the above has to do with Ballymun – seems like a general outpouring of disgust with anyone who happens to live outside the Pale and who believes that the Irish language – as our national language – is a hindrance to the development of a proper public-transport network.

Oddly enough, this is exactly the opinion delivered by Sir Edmund Spenser (although he never mentioned public transport) in his great Elizabethan diatribe against Irish ‘savages’ (for those of you interested enough in enlightening yourselves, please see the following link: http://www.uoregon.edu/~rbear/veue1.html – you may surprise yourself by seeing how close your views are to those of a British colonialist who effectively celebrated the idea of killing of the Irish).

@PDLL wrote:

outpouring of disgust with anyone who happens to live outside the Pale and who believes that the Irish language – as our national language – is a hindrance to the development of a proper public-transport network.

Nah, just a certain element of the rural mafia/professional whingers. The farming lobbies were the ones who destroyed the Spatial Stregety which would have brought real regional development to towns and cities outside the Pale. That was the rural lobbies demanding the restrictions on one off houses be all but removed and created a free for all in the countryside who did that. Not the West Brit Jackeens. This is what destroyed the tourist industry in rural Ireland – greedy farmers moving into the property development game and building the O’Southforks and O’Gracelands everywhere and destroying the views.

Do you have any idea how much public money is paid per passenger to keep these mad little airports opened around the country – most of them MILES from any real population centres. It is a national scandal but will never be dealth with as the “poor” famers need them once a year to up for Winning Streak or an IFA protest.

People in rural Ireland are way over indulged by this state and always have been since the days of mad Dev. From endless grants, to lack of planning restrictions, to Martin Cullen giving them the Western Rail Corridor for no other reason than a country priest “beseeched” him – while at the same time he is telling thousands of real commuters in Navan and Swords to make sure to put the development levies and strategic planning in place or no railway or metro for you lot.

But over in Claremorris all they have to do is ask and no conditions are placed upon the crackpot rail project trought the bogs of East Galway and Mayo for 3 trains a day of grannies on free travel passes when the current bus service on the route is already half empty. And then you have to listen to some Mayo IFA rep on TV saying “they build metros and Luas all over de place in Dublin, but we get nothing!” Before he leaves the train station (which he’ll never use even when the WRC is opened) and drives his 4×4 back home. Meanwhile 10,000s of commuters in Dunboyne, Navan and Swords are told to wait until 2015 and they might get a rail service. Cork 2008 and Limerick city, well never…. But Claremorris is being developed in to the Clapham Junction of the Irish rail network and there are little or no real commuters livng in that part of Mayo.

You think this is normal? You think this is based on actual rail transport need?

Cities outside Dublin have been as much victims of this pampering of the rural elite as Dublin. Claremorris will have five passenger rail lines leading into it post Transport21 and Limerick City does not even have a decent bus service. If pointing this out makes me an Anglo-Saxon then called me Alfred.

PS: Irish is a dead language, dead as a post. The Irish speakers gave up on it no matter how much money was sent their way to keep it alive.

@Cute Panda wrote:

From endless grants, to lack of planning restrictions to Martin Cullen giving them the Western Rail Corridor for no other reason than a country priest “beseeched” him – while at the same time he is telling thousands of real commuters in Navan and Swords to make sure to put the development levies and strategic planning in place or no railway or metro for you lads. But over in Claremorris all they have to do is ask and no conditions are placed upon the crackpot rail project to bogs of East Galway and Mayo for 3 trains a day of grannies on free travel passes when the current bus service onthe route is already half empty.

I didn’t really want to get involved in this debate for a few reasons, not least because 1) it doesn’t relate to the title of the thread and 2) I have fully expressed my opinion on the issue of one-off housing etc on another thread and I don’t really want to go through all of that again.

However, there are a certain number of inaccuracies which really need to be clarified. The Western Rail Corridor has nothing to do with some stupid priest (whoeevr that is?) beseeching Martin Cullen. Look at the facts: Derry (pop. circa 70,000) Sligo (pop. circa 20,000), Galway (pop. circa 80,000), Ennis (pop circa 20,000), LImerick (pop. circa 100,000) Cork (pop. circa 200,000) – there is nearly 600,000 people – an thats only those living in the main towns along a possible western corridor route running the full length of the western seaboard. In reality, about 1.5 million people could benefit from such a rail line. If it existed maybe people would not need to move to Dublin as it would stimulate the western seaboard’s economy. You said Cute Panda that you lived in Sligo. Do you think someone from Sligo should travel via Dublin to get to Galway by rail? Does this make sense???????????????????????????? If it does, then hello Alfred.

Oh by the way, I am interested to know why the Dublin tram company with 60,000,000 passengers before it closed was unable to deal with a minor renewal of its ticketing technology to cater for a second language. If this was the reason it went belly up, the lets face it, it wasn’t being managed properly in the first place.

“However, there are a certain number of inaccuracies which really need to be clarified. The Western Rail Corridor has nothing to do with some stupid priest (whoeevr that is?) beseeching Martin Cullen. “

Yes he did. He and the rest of West on Track were reported by Minister Matin Cullen on the even of Transport 21 that they “beeseeched” him to open it. Even though the McCann Working Group which members of WoT demanded and were even involved with came out aginst opening the WRC in full.

“Look at the facts: Derry (pop. circa 70,000) “

Derry is not on the WRC and never was. It is already on the rail network.

“Sligo (pop. circa 20,000), “

A small provincial town and it is already on the mainline rail network. One of the great tragedies of the WRC is that the campaign took away form a previous plan of implementing a very viable commuter service between Sligo-Collooney-Ballisodare-Ballymoate-Boyle. Lost in the mad shuffle to get Claremorris yet another TWO rail connections to the THREE it already enjoys.

“Galway (pop. circa 80,000), “

Needs a commuter service on the Galway-Oranmore-Athenry corridor. One of the committee of WestonTrack works GalwayCoCO around the corner from the slum which is Galway station. Has he or WoT ever once highlighted what a kip that station is? Nope, all too busy up in the wilds of Mayo pointing at track running through a bog and using terms such as “vital”.

“Ennis (pop circa 20,000), “

Already on the rail network and has a good rail service.

“LImerick (pop. circa 100,000)”

Glad you brought this up as Limerick City was TOTALLY left out of Transport 21 in order to give Claremorris more rail lines runing into it than Dublin will have post T21. Can you now see the trend here regarding the “Western” Rail Corridor…it is no such thing. “Mayo on the Mooch” would be a more accruate title.

“Cork (pop. circa 200,000) – there is nearly 600,000 people”

Also not on the WRC and never was. Like Cork, Galway and Limerick commuter rail services are needed and not three trains a day rattling at 60mph between Sligo and Limerick which would be slower than all comparable road journies over the whole route and that’s even before the Atlantic Road Corridor is built.

The Western Rail Corridor and the Preist and handful of British Trainspotters who are behind it have robbed Sligo, Galway, Limerick of the possibility of some of the money which is being wasted on that grand truck rural route through the bogs, being spent instead on busy commuter rails services and maybe even light rail for Cork, Limerick and Galway.

The biggest winner in Transport 21 was not Dublin – it was Claremorris. The biggst loser was Limerick city.

I suggest next time you at least get some clue of what the hell you are talking about before you accuse others of posting inaccuracies. The Western Rail Corridor is a folly and fleecing of the Irish taxpayers and if built would only emulate the failure of the current Limerick-Waterford-Rosslare line.

600 million for the WRC could do a lot of good for real public transport in and around the cities of the West of Ireland rather than being wasted on farmers in Mayo to admire while they drive past it saying things like “sure wasn’t Fr. MacGreil a greash man altoghter!” while 100,000’s of poor sods who could of done with a commuter rail service from Swords, to Navan, to Raheen can sit in traffic while the development levies are being collected.

BTW it was you sho said “stupid preist” and not me, and you have already been told than the comments relating to the pampering of rural Ireland is not pointed at the ordinary people in the West of Ireland (99% of them have no interest in the WRC reopening as they know they’ll never use it) but at organisations such as the IFA, Western Development Commision, TG4, Council for the West and the gazilion other professional whingers who are already well taken care of by the Irish state.

There is a whole industry in rural Ireland surrounding this victim mentality and when viewed objectively is missing the point of what regional development is. I’ll give you an example. A young lad was killed walking between Coolooney and Balisodare in Co Sligo the other night. A car hit him on the road. the two towns are right next to each other. Now all I hear from the professional whingers is for major infrastructural investments for every village and town from rail corridors to motorrways to broadband. Mega bucks projects.

How about something as simple as some footpaths in and around country towns and vilages so people are not run over when walking home? Regional development is not always about mega projects – try telling that to the rural lobbies. Footpaths are simply not sexy enough but they are more needed to improve quality of life int he West of Ireland that a rail line for theee trains a day which will be mostly empty,

It is obvious that you feel passionately towards County Mayo and its comely inhabitants. Whatever becomes of WRC, if ever it does start moving, it should run through all of the major towns and cities along the western seaboard. Maybe I am a utopian at heart. The very fact that you say Sligo is on the ‘mainline’ is hilarious – ‘main’ implies primary, important, the most significant, and where does it go to – ya Dublin. Yes, Sligo should be connected to Dublin by rail, but it should also be connected with virtually every other major centre of population in the state by running a rail-line done the western seaboard from Derry to Cork. 1.5 million people might then be able to travel without having a compulsory Dublin stopover. I am surprised passengers are not herded off the trains in Dublin and forced to shop there just to boost the local economy.

Galway train station – small and badly located, but is it any more of a slum than any other railway station in Ireland? No.

:confused:

@Cute Panda wrote:

To sum up, I think that Ballymun “failed” in an Irish social sense because it was perhaps too modern for the Dev’s Holy Catholic Rural Ireland and it created a negative reaction to the Irish, who think people can only live in bungalows on an acre of land. I think if Ballymun was built today, it would have got a lot more TLC from Irish Government and society as a whole. A freind of mine who stills lives there once summed it up beautifully. “If we want to make the rest of Ireland respect and cherish Ballymun then paint the flats white and tatch the roof of the towers”.

Ireland was not ready for the Ballymun Flats when they were first built.

I know this is supposed to be an architecture forum so I dont know why Im posting with these people ^ but I have no idea what this rural rant of your is about, Ballymun like towers didn’t work in any Country at the time whether they had Gaelige football or not and would not work today if built, the un-monied put into them and then abandoned, today either.

CP, you’re meeting that wailing wall that is the western mentality (not the mentality of everyone from the west before I’m accused of being a british colonialist loving protestant supremacist!) right here.

Reality check people-there are NO major cities on the western seaboard. I’m not talking in Indian or Chinese terms, I’m talking in British Isles terms. A ‘city’ like Galway could well not even get a motorway connection because it’s population is simply not big enough. Norwich for example has no motorway connection. Norwich is bigger than Galway and Limerick people.

This may seem OT but it’s not really. The OP was querying why Ballymun ‘failed’ and the neglect of our cities in favour of rural utopias is very much on topic here.

What is off-topic (if this is what ‘OT’ means) is a quite aggressive rant against people who believe that development should be properly and evenly spread across the country – development that would, in the long term, help ease many of the problems of the great metropolis (Dublin,lest there be any mistake). Perhaps if adequate infrastructure was put in place in the west, then so many people would not be forced to migrate to the east for economic reasons. This would ensure balanced development for all and would help Dublin develop in a more appropriate, paced, and balanced manner. By simply pouring all of the infrastructural concrete into the east you are simply reinforceing the settlement patterns established by the ANglo-Normans and the Elizabethans which were largely based on two factors: 1. geographical proximity to ‘the mainland’ and 2. quality of agricultural land. As we are no longer politically connected to Britain and as we are continually told in such threads as the Eoghan Harris one, Ireland is now a post-agrarian economy. That means, that there is no economic reason that development should be focussed solely on the east (unless of course you simply want to continually overburden Dublin’s infrastructure and allow the rest of the country to decline, or you wish to reinforce the georgraphical biases inherent in British colonial policy in Ireland). Either way, it is a short-sighted, Dublin-biased vision of Ireland’s future. If Dublin people seriously want to deal with such issues as endless housing estates and traffic jams then they can either pour endless amounts of money into Dublin-centric infrastructural solutions, or they can make a real effort to stem the problem on a long-term basis by re-balancing the state’s development in a SUSTAINABLE way. What doesn’t help is some people ranting in an aggressive manner about some individuals in western Ireland who might have a different and more long-sighted (and arguably more sustainable) vision of how the country should develop in the next couple of centuries. Is it that difficult for some Dublin people to imagine a balanced state with a number of regional cities of major significance? Are we scared that the great metropolis might lose some of its alleged greatness?

This is the kind of thing I am talking about. The molly-coddling of the rural folks as if they are so more precious and their needs are greater than any other segment of Irish society. How many newlyweds in Ballymun, Neilstown etc are left a “site” by their parents to build their “dream home” on?

When was the last time a young working class couple with no money and who failed to get on a public housing list in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Dundalk got this kinds of schmaltzy coverage on the front page of a national newspaper.

“dream home”! There are people in Ireland who would just like some kind of home…

Couple’s dream home plans wrecked
Irish Independent

Stuart and Kathryn Bloom in front of the site where they had hoped to build their dream home outside Manorhamilton.

Anita Guidera

NEWLYWEDS Stuart Bloom and Kathryn Malaniff Bloom had a simple plan.

Kathryn had grown up on the picturesque family farm outside Manorhamilton in north Leitrim.

Her parents had given her a site and her heartfelt hope was to build a home with her new husband in the rolling countryside she loves.

The couple, who got married in March, secured permission from Leitrim County Council to build a house and felt they were close enough to their dream to touch it.

But all that has changed and they may now have to move across the Border.

It was an eleventh-hour objection from An Taisce that turned their world upside down.

Speaking out yesterday, the distraught couple said that being told they were not welcome in Kathryn’s native county was hard to take.

“This is a beautiful county and it is where we want to live.

“We were granted planning permission with conditions that we were prepared to adhere to and we believe that our house would be sympathetic to the surrounding environment,” said Stuart, who works in customer care for MBNA in Carrick-on-Shannon.

In its submission, An Taisce stated that the proposed development was in an area of high natural amenity and would contravene national rural housing guidelines and Leitrim’s county development plan.

But Stuart pointed out that within 40 yards of the couple’s site was a long-established house, while a half-mile away on the same road a new house had recently been completed.

Appealing directly to An Bord Pleanala to consider their plight, Stuart said that the price of sites would leave them with no choice but to relocate to Northern Ireland, where VAT can be recouped on building costs.

“Living here would mean we would be able to bring our family up surrounded by family.”

Their story is just the latest in a growing number arising from planning decisions which have angered many Leitrim residents and prompted the county council this week to pass a vote of no confidence in An Bord Pleanala.

Manorhamilton-based Fianna Fail councillor Aodh Flynn, who claimed that heritage group An Taisce was now the sole objector to 20pc of planning applications in north Leitrim, said that denying a young couple the opportunity to build a house for themselves was “simply wrong”.

He revealed that An Bord Pleanala had recently overturned a decision by the county council for a 38-house development in the village of Rossinver eight miles away, following an objection by An Taisce.

The project had been endorsed by the council in an attempt to regenerate a dying village which has lost its post office and only pub and shop in recent years.

The development would have led to the construction of a sewage scheme and would have had the knock-on effect of increasing enrolment in the school, the reopening of the only shop and the addition of other amenities, he said.

The problem is not as simple as east vs. west and imho the fault lies largely with government inaction.

For it’s size and population, Dublin lacks a lot of facilities that other similar-sized cities already have – notably a proper mass transport system. For years the government let Dublin grow without any proper planning and without any thought for the future. ‘The city is growing so obviously we’re doing something right’, seems to be the mentality of the day.

On the other hand, the west was getting poorer and less densly populated and the government did little to try to stop this. A few half-planned measures like an airport for (almost) every western county and some grants did little to alleviate the problem.

Despite this, the solution now is not a big-bang approach, spending millions on projects which are badly thought out and which have no reason d’etre other than balanced development. The solution lies in proper planning over the long term, not warm fuzzy thoughts.

The WRC is a point in principle. Buses around Mayo run half empty and infrequently yet in the name of balanced development, we’re talking about building a multi-million euro train line that runs less often and that IE don’t want to operate. A well built road network and decent local bus service would provide a much better return but, because Dublin gets a train line, the west has to get one too.

I’m not attacking people from the west because some people from Dublin suffer the same limited-view mindset, unable to understand why any money should be spend outside Dublin. It should be up to the government to make strong decisions that are best for the country as a whole.

Ballymun – social problems in Ireland – Western Rail Corridor – xenophobia – one-off housing: I think this thread has just unravelled.

PDLL-The anglo-normans (lets call a spade a spade, the brits) did not ‘pick’ Dublin. The Vikings had established a trading city there hundreds of years beforehand because Dublin is close to Europe.

Now, you give it the usual “balanced regional develoment” routine. The fact is that we should not ‘spread investment thinly’ in all corners of the land. We should pick cities and develop them (a la the doomed NSS-doomed because it dared to ignore some real two-bit towns in rural Ireland in favour of places like Sligo), not allow further low density, unsustainable sprawl.

Fair play to An Taisce for objecting to yet another blot on the landscape in Leitrim. It’s high time these joke county councils were told what to do (unfortunately Dick Roche told them to do the wrong thing to get FF votes). The west’s latest whinge is that tourism is Dublin centric. That’s because the old allure of the west is gone-all the natural beauty has been stadily destroyed by one off housing and now visitors are failing t return. Why would they? They can see suburbia in Croydon/Basildon/Wilmslow, they don’t need to pay to see it all over Mayo. Of course the western tourism agency is blaming a lack of funding on advertising and not the destruction of the once beautiful landscape. At least here in the East we have Wicklow Co Co protecting the beautiful garden of Ireland a hell of a lot better than Mayo Co Co-try to build a one off house in Wicklow and see how far you get. Wicklow realised that tourism in the county depends on natural beauty and has acted accordingly. Even Fingal where tourism is not important (apart from the Airport), you can not build a one-off house to save your life. Fingal realised some time ago that Balbriggan, Swords and Blanchardstown should be developed as “county towns” and the countrysideshould be preserved. Clare co co were publically admonished by the NRA (and thretened with funding withdrawal!) for persisting with granting planning on one off housing within 100m of national roads in the counrty. Backward mindset, victim complex, coupled to an electoral system that underrepresents the urban areas and over represents the rural areas (beacuse every constituency has minimum 3 seats under the constitution, regardless of how small the population!).

@murphaph wrote:

Now, you give it the usual “balanced regional develoment” routine.

Fine. Then lets just continue to build Dublin up. Lets just cram it till it bursts. Lest just heap one problem on top of another. Lets just make the traffic jams longer, the buses more crowded, property more expensive and so on until you have the urban living nightmare that is something like Birmingham or London. Maybe – just maybe – then a select group of Dubliners might just stop whining that the west is getting some badly needed political and financial attention because they will be so busy whining about all of the new problems that they have to contend with. If you are going to base the development of the nation (in case you forgot, there are 25 other counties in the Republic) on petty bigotry then I truly feel sorry for the country.

And if you think towns like Sligo are developing, then you really need to travel around a bit more often.

@PDLL wrote:

Fine. Then lets just continue to build Dublin up. Lets just cram it till it bursts.

Dublin is a grossly underpopulated city for its size as is Cork, Limerick and Waterford. All these cities need about twice the number of people living in them as they currently have.

Dublin is not overpopulated, not even close to it. Just becuase the IFA make a statement such as “Dublin will literally fall into the Irish sea from too many people living there” does not make this a fact.

At no point have you PDLL encounter one person on this forum who is anti-regional development. The very opposite is what you constantly are told here and yet you seem to choose not to hear it. Why can’t you just not accept that people in Dublin and the rest of urban Ireland want to see regional development, but they also want to be able to protect the natural beauty of the Irish countryside and not have it turned into Essex, Orange County or suburban Atlanta in order to indulge greedy farmers who were handed the Irish countryside after the Brits left to hold it in trust for the Irish nation.

People in cities are the Irish nation as well. So the beautiful views and unique vistas belong to all Irish people and not just for farmers to destroy with O’Southforks and O’Gracelands and then wonder why the tourists are staying in the cities.

Regional balance is not an over populated and usustainable countryside and half empty cities. I am totally in favour of regional development and investment. Not crackpot schemes like the Western Rail Corridor which are nothing more than trying to make something which cannot work, work.

On the subject of the impact of serious crime in Dublin and Limerick cities on the taxpayer, I would like to see a comparioson of that versus the impact on the taxpayer of the accepted human sacrifice in rural Ireland of road deaths. And let’s be honest here, the reason why the Government is not cracking down on speeding and drink driving in rural areas is becuase it is the norm, is socially accepted and would impact on the pockets of rural publicans.

BTW Galway was founded by a tribe of 12 English families and for hundreds of years it was more or less illegal to be Irish in Galway.

oh and to bring this thread back on topic, the Ballymun Flats desipte being neglected and constantly slurred by the Irish rural-mindset within the media and government, Ballymun was a hot bed of Irish culture and arts.

While the rural Ireland drove around Mayo wearing 10 gallon hats and listening to Culchie and Western songs about “I’m a Down Home Digle Cowboy Yew-Haw Partner” the residents of the Ballymun flats were sending their children to Irish schools and tradtional Irish dancing, art and music were thriving in the Ballymun flats.

So you can keep your biggoted rural snobbery to yourself. I am from the Ballymun flats and I am just as “Irish” as you are. In fact, I would wager more, becuase I want to see ALL of Ireland get it’s fair dues while you and the rest of the agri-elite want only rural Ireland looked after and to hell with everybody else.

@PDLL wrote:

Fine. Then lets just continue to build Dublin up. Lets just cram it till it bursts.

Did I say that? I said the cities should be developed, including Galway and Limerick.

@PDLL wrote:

Lest just heap one problem on top of another. Lets just make the traffic jams longer, the buses more crowded, property more expensive and so on until you have the urban living nightmare that is something like Birmingham or London. Maybe – just maybe – then a select group of Dubliners might just stop whining that the west is getting some badly needed political and financial attention because they will be so busy whining about all of the new problems that they have to contend with. If you are going to base the development of the nation (in case you forgot, there are 25 other counties in the Republic) on petty bigotry then I truly feel sorry for the country.

I’m no biggot, believe me. I have time for everyone, but if you choose to live in rural Ireland then don’t expect the infrastructure to be built around you. If you choose to live in urban Ireland you have a right to expect a certain level of infrastructure to be provided for you. Simple. As CP says, Dublin (and Cork, Limerick and Galway) is woefully underpopulated while there are people living in low density rural and suburban sprawl all over the land. Thankfully, most recent development in Dublin has been medium density at least. This is the way to go, build up the cities and have very prohibitive restrictions on low density and particularly one-off (except urban infill) housing to prevent the further destruction of the irish countryside, which as CP says, belongs to all of us, not just the farmers to sell it off one third of an acre at a time.

@PDLL wrote:

And if you think towns like Sligo are developing, then you really need to travel around a bit more often.

I said Sligo shouldbe developed, as per the NSS. It isn’t being deveoped because politicians like Tom Parlon are popular because they support houses all over the place and ‘decentralistion’ to every twi bit village in the country, as opposed to proper decentralistion whereby certain towns are picked and developed. The NSS is dead and it was a good idea.

@murphaph wrote:

The NSS is dead and it was a good idea.

It had to be sacrificed to – it was “a Dublin Mindset”.

Could you imagine if a Dublin poltician went down to Clare and told them that their road deaths are high and the tourists are staying away from your county because of a “rural mindset” – there would be murder and yet people in Dublin watched a budget speech delivered by a Minister of Finance which attacks people in Dublin in a bigoted manner as if was his patriotic duty, while Farmer Bertie sitting there beside this gobshite nodding in agreement.

McCreevy is the rural Finance Minister who for almost 4 years withheld the money needed for the Dublin Metro, Interconnector and Luas extenions treating them as if they were luxury projects, while at the same time he threw cash at the horsey crowd.

You just couldn’t make this stuff up even if you tried.

@Cute Panda wrote:

It had to be sacrificed to – it was “a Dublin Mindset”.

Could you imagine if a Dublin poltician went down to Clare and told them that their road deaths are high and the tourists are staying away from your county because of a “rural mindset” – there would be murder and yet people in Dublin watched a budget speech delivered by a Minister of Finance which attacks people in Dublin in a bigoted manner as if was his patriotic duty, while Farmer Bertie sitting there beside this gobshite nodding in agreement.

McCreevy is the rural Finance Minister who for almost 4 years withheld the money needed for the Dublin Metro, Interconnector and Luas extenions treating them as if they were luxury projects, while at the same time he threw cash at the horsey crowd.

You just couldn’t make this stuff up even if you tried.

Too painfully true. I drive past McCreevy’s gaf near Sallins sometimes (all horsey set neighbours round there so no surprises he gave them a heap of cash for their centre in Punchestown). What an eyesore. Typically out of place 6,000 sq ft monstrosity, along with it’s equally out of place neighbours, all put up in the last decade (ruining a previously peaceful and idyllic place) on a single track lane that has to be maintained at the expense of urban dwellers who have to pay the same tax as the one-off dwellers who destroy more road in their Pajero’s in a week than an urban dweller does in a year. Yet it’s the urban dwellers who are spoiled, or so we are continually told from across the Shannon.

Where does one start. I had promised myself not to get into this debate as I have been down this cul-de-sac before. A few points that might help the urban lobbyists:

– did it ever dawn on you that you if you genuinely want to see things change, vilifying those who live in the country with ignorant and abusive stereotypes is probably not going to help (please note CP);
– did it ever dawn on you that you if you genuinely want to see things change, talking down to those who live in the counrtyside and patronising them is not going to help;
– did it ever dawn on you that urban living is only one concept of human settlement – its is not the beginning and end of the way humans might wish to live – please try to see things from other perspectives – what suits you may not suit everyone;
– did it ever dawn on you that the concept of a utopian pastoral countryside is a fictional ideal and the countryside should not be just seen as a weekend play park for city-dwellers;
– did it ever dawn on you that while the Irish countryside has its imperfections in places, cities like Dublin Cork and Limerick have large swathes of urban ugliness which overshadow anything seen in the countryside in terms of scale and intensity
– did it ever dawn on you that proper regional development of our towns and cities (Galway, Cork, Limerick etc) should mean that they are not just satelite towns of Dublin connected by rail and motorway to Dublin alone. Proper regional development involves full regional development – all of the major population centres along the west coast should be connected by rail and proper road networks so that you do not have to transport people or good via Dublin every time you want to get from Cork to Galway or Galway to Derry or Sligo to Belfast or wherever. That is integrated regional development.

Maybe I missed something in my civics classes in school which highlighted the fact that Dublin people seem to be higher up the food chain thatn the other citizens of Ireland thereby entitling them to shove their opinions and lifestyle down everyones throats in an abusive manner, but what would I know – I am just a red-neck culchie who likes country and western music and who stuffs my local politician’s pocket full of cash every time I want to build a night club in a field outside Lahinch. CP – judging by what you said in previous posts, I would have thought that you would have been a bit more careful about propagating ill-found stereotypes. It seems that this little detail has by-passed you.

Regarding the oft used myth about 4x4s and rural people (used to demonize rural-dwelling people in this thread and that on Eoghan Harris and one-off houses), this was in the British news today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4697246.stm

Although it applied to England, I have a feeling that the unnecessary predominance of 4x4s in urban areas probably applies to ireland also. Maybe this is now one particular stick that can no longer be falsely accused to beat those living in rural areas.

Cute Panda weakens his arguments by overstating the case but his posts are so funny. Keep it up.

He could just have said that in Ireland the urban poor have been viewed with more hostility and suspicion than the rural poor. Hence the ‘failure’ of Ballymun.

Ah here Ted……I was just about to ask this cute little Panda whether Kinsealy was a rural or urban location vis a vis the extensive Stud Farming interests of “some” local residents….
….a supplimentary question,a cheann comhairle……What is the function of Local Authority Planning Officers and their associated professional staff and how much do we pay them……
As for me…I`m thinking of becoming an A.I man….. 😀

This may become a long post, sorry if it turns out too long. I am from Ballymun as well. I was born there and lived there till 1999 and then moved to Maynooth and now (curses) I am one of those who have erected a one off rural dwelling on a site given to my wife and I by her father, who is, yes, a farmer. I lived in the flats during the 70’s and 80’s and then Poppintree (houses).

Was Ballymun a failure? A a previous post suggested you have to ask what was the objective. I recall that it was an urgent, quick and cheap solution to the problems in the inner city tenanments of the 1960’s. I guess the mohair brigade wanted lots of new space in the city as well so the two co-joined nicely. The Fenian Street disaster was the ultimate catalyst I think. In anyevent, the project from start to finish took only about 5 years helped by the modular construction and an on site fabrication plant. The only problem was that there was no plan at all for what to do with the people when they were out there. CP will remember that there was only the one church untill the late 70’s when two more were built and then a third in 83 and that mass was held in the school halls. The swimming pool was only built because of local pressure and also the Library.

Repairs and maintenance were barely adequate and there were long waiting lists. The public transport system was poor. The 36 36a/b routes operated from Parnell Square and while CP is right about the single deck operation there were plenty of Duoble deckers in the 70’s. When the Bonbardier buses came in all of the routes became single deck. People often walked to Santry or Glasnevin to get a 16 or 19A.

Fire doors and enterence door on the blocks becase vandalised and were simply never repaired and eventually removed. This is a good example of what happened in that things like the playgrounds were removed as the Coproration either did not have the money or the inclination to repair them. I remember as a very young child hearing all the other children playin in the playground when I was in bed trying to sleep during the summer time. 10 years later there was silence because there was no playground to play in.

The green open spaces I perosonaly think were a good idea. There was plenty of places to play football band a few golf balls around and just mess. It was only when the horses came around that it became a disaster.

CP will remember that there was a track worn out on the ground by people walking from the bus stop at the roundabout to the shopping centre as no-one wanted to sue the underpass and the sixty crazy steps. It was muddy and dangerous. It took 15 years for the corporation to actaully put some tarmack on it and turn it into a proper path. This is a good example of who the corporation took no notice at all of this place which they were the landlords of. CP will also remember that there were rose gardens in the middle of the old roundabout. These were also done away with, why? Ask the landlord.

The real main reason why Ballymun went bad was the building of Poppintree and later the Coultree houses. Most of those houses were taken by people in the flats who moved out en masse. Eventually in 1987 we also did likewise. By then, in a 96 flat block only 17 were occupied. My brother and I counted the number of empty flats on Balcurris on day in 1989. There were 80 occupied flats in the entire road of over 500 flats.

A lot is made of the heroin epedemic. It was real but not worse then in other parts of the city. People strung out on heroin were not the reason why there were so many empty flats. The reason was that the go-getters who were the people who led the campaigns for the area all moved on elsewhere. The reason is down to the refusal of the landlord to properly maintain the flats. When I was an apprentice Solicitor I had the joy of seeing a former neighbour in Balcurris taking an action against the landlord due to the damp and mould in the flat whcih was affecting her ashmatic son. My old flat had water appearing in the cormers where the prefabs joined up whenever it rained so it want just basic maintenace it was structural.

An interesting sub note you might all find interesting. The original tenants all had to pass an interview to be placed in the flats. This was never followed up with subsequent tenants and would have prevented the place becoming the dumping ground it became in the 80’s. Also the Mater Hospital set up a Child Psychirtry service as soon as the place was built. Why? To evaluate the effects of high rise living? I dont know. Also, tranquilisers were handed out like smarties in the seventies and I think Tony Gregory has made the connection between this and the drugs explosion in the 80’s. If mammy was possing Roche’s all the time why cant I shoot up sort of thinking.

Anyway,

If Ballymun failed it was due to the landlords neglect. If you accept the theory it was built for a purpose as I stated above then it succeeded in it’s original aim. Care was taken at the start. However, once the people were out there it was neglected. Just to sum up, imagine the money the City Council would have made if they could have carried out the current redevelopment, and sold off the flats without demolising them. Imagine how must a 24 hour centrally heated flat with hot water on demand also 24 hours a day, three bedroom, seperate kitchen and living room, private balcony, only four apartments each floor…………. it could have paid for itself.

In anyevent, the project from start to finish took only about 5 years helped by the modular construction and an on site fabrication plant.

There was a field out the airport road were unused and spare segments of the towers were lying in grass for years. You could really see how they flats really were a big Airfix kit made of concrete. I beleive the original design came from France and there are few Ballymun’s in several Frence cities.

The only problem was that there was no plan at all for what to do with the people when they were out there.

It was just like Tallaght 20 years later. There was an assumption that these people would somehow fend for themselves. It was really weird in many ways – like the Corpo expected some form of Natural Selection to take over.

CP will remember that there was only the one church untill the late 70’s when two more were built and then a third in 83 and that mass was held in the school halls. The swimming pool was only built because of local pressure and also the Library.

Saint Pappins was the first church which was a relic from Famine and people would stand in the rain outside. Then they built the Holy Spirit and then the Virgin one on Shangan Road. Do you recall when the Holy Spirifirst opened. They held the first mass and people from Ballymun were left outside in the rain while Corpo dignataries went inside.

I can recall that Pat Quinn, when nobody else was interested in Ballymun, least of all the government opened a Supermarket there, created loads of jobs. Ironically the greedy capitalists had more interest in Ballymun than the so called liberal and social justice crowd. My life long hatred of that middle class plaything called socialism started with that.

Repairs and maintenance were barely adequate and there were long waiting lists.

I can recall central heating pipes which burst in the basement of the flats which would be spewing hot water out for weeks on end.

The public transport system was poor. The 36 36a/b routes operated from Parnell Square and while CP is right about the single deck operation there were plenty of Duoble deckers in the 70’s. When the Bonbardier buses came in all of the routes became single deck. People often walked to Santry or Glasnevin to get a 16 or 19A.

or as far as the Swords Road for the 33 or 42.

CP will remember that there was a track worn out on the ground by people walking from the bus stop at the roundabout to the shopping centre as no-one wanted to sue the underpass and the sixty crazy steps. It was muddy and dangerous. It took 15 years for the corporation to actaully put some tarmack on it and turn it into a proper path. This is a good example of who the corporation took no notice at all of this place which they were the landlords of. CP will also remember that there were rose gardens in the middle of the old roundabout. These were also done away with, why? Ask the landlord.

It was amazing how many years the roses lasted around the edge and in the four circles. There was something very poetic about that.

The real main reason why Ballymun went bad was the building of Poppintree and later the Coultree houses. Most of those houses were taken by people in the flats who moved out en masse. Eventually in 1987 we also did likewise. By then, in a 96 flat block only 17 were occupied. My brother and I counted the number of empty flats on Balcurris on day in 1989. There were 80 occupied flats in the entire road of over 500 flats.

You could go up to the Corpo at the time and just say you were thrown out of you house by your parents and they would give you the keys to a flat. I did that when I came back from a stint in Austria and I got a 3 bedroom flat for myself, my girlfreind and a mate. We had a band at the time and used to practice in an empty flat across the hall with the amps and everything going full blast. We were the only occupants on that floor.

A lot is made of the heroin epedemic. It was real but not worse then in other parts of the city. People strung out on heroin were not the reason why there were so many empty flats.

I would agree with that. And other thing too and I swear this is true – every junkie I knew in Ballymun was not from Ballymun. There were nice respectable middle class boys and girls who ended up there. I can honestly say I never met one skaghead from Ballymun who was from the flats. There were all blow ins from Santry, Artane etc. In fact, i recall one day this well dressed guy knocking on the doors and showing a picture of his daughter and asking if anybody seen here. Turns out I knew her, she was a junkie and her day was a big shot in Aer Rinta.

The reason was that the go-getters who were the people who led the campaigns for the area all moved on elsewhere. The reason is down to the refusal of the landlord to properly maintain the flats. When I was an apprentice Solicitor I had the joy of seeing a former neighbour in Balcurris taking an action against the landlord due to the damp and mould in the flat whcih was affecting her ashmatic son. My old flat had water appearing in the cormers where the prefabs joined up whenever it rained so it want just basic maintenace it was structural.

This was very common and the reason I got out completely inthe end. The condensation of the central heating hitting the cracked joints in the walls destroyed a lot of the flats in the end and made them unlivable for all but the most down and out.

An interesting sub note you might all find interesting. The original tenants all had to pass an interview to be placed in the flats.

Oh yes, I can remember my parents talking about it. At the time they were planning to emigrate to Australia and they were far more pleased to be accepted into Ballymun than be granted visas for Australia.

It really goes to prove that a community does not just happen by itself and it takes a lot of social planning and rolling investment to make it successful.

Were both of you happy growing up in Ballymun can I ask CP and Thomas?

Speaking for myself, I had a very happy and contented childhood in Ballymun, and most of my teen years were the same until my friends started to move away then there was no reason to reamin. I have nothing but really good memories of going to the Ballymun Comprehensive. I played soccer, GAA, was into the Scouts and when I got older played music and joined a local drama group. So it was pretty normal Irish childhood in most senses – you only realised the stigma whrn you left Ballymun and encounter a reaction from people like you were vermin which you were not aware of growing up in Ballymun. When you lived in Ballymun you were not aware of how the rest of Irish society (in certain segments) held you in comtempt.

One of the things you never heard about is that for all the skangers and lowlifes who came out of Ballymun it also produced way more successful and talented people as well. I think a lot of that came down to the fact that because we had nothing there, it made people in Ballymun either sink or swim harder.

I had a fine upbringing and I was happy, there was great sports activity, loads of soccer and GAA and there was Setanta hurling club as well. Mostly I rode a bike and walked two dogs out the fields and in santry forest. But there was all of the stuff you get in every area. Kids chucking stones and knicking stuff ouft of your garden. I remember the lads from the three bedroom across our floor testing petrol bombs by throwing them off the roof once and I have to admit to building roadblocks out of broken bottles and hiding in the hedge with my mates to see what would happen when we were small. It was a gas then but if someone did it to me now I’d kick their arse down the street!! As CP says above it takes a lot to made a community from scratch.

I have a funny feeling that we may be saying the same in 20 about the new new Ballymun.

Hopefully not, but environmentally I do wonder. Considering this is apparently the biggest urban regeneration project in all of Europe, what cutting-edge, state-of-the-art environmental, energy saving, sustainable-living elements are being incorporated into the thousands of units being built? Very little if anything I’d imagine.

Does every house have a solar water heater on the roof? What use is made of geothermal? Rainwater recycling? U-value of homes – are they just bog-basic building regs standard? Solar electricity? Pellet heating systems?

The vast opportunity the Ballymun Project offered to build a highly efficient residential community of mammoth proportions doesn’t seem to have been realised.

*Warning – The folllowing article is from that notorious rag that pretends to be a broadsheet, The Sunday Independent. Contents maybe dubious, unreliable, and driven by an alterior agenda.*

Faulty towers hit by €22m wrangle
Residents are living in fear at new Ballymun
By JEROME REILLY
Sunday December 16 2007

The most ambitious urban regeneration project in the history of the state — the €2.5bn rebuilding of Ballymun is now beset by a multi-million euro legal row over alleged shoddy workmanship as well as anti-social behaviour including drug taking, joyriding and wanton vandalism.

New private apartment blocks designed to be a showcase for the new Ballymun are in danger of becoming worse than the infamous towers they replaced, residents claim.

Gardai have serious concerns about poor security in the apartment complexes at Santry Cross which, under the terms of an unusually stringent covenants of leases, were to be built, managed and maintained as “high class residential developments”.

But residents say underground car parks have become dangerous no-go areas, routinely used by addicts and car thieves, with stairwells contaminated by human excrement and used syringes.

There is no closed circuit TV or evidence of full time security personnel on duty and there are other serious security shortcomings. One resident, Lukasz Holgn, told the Sunday Independent: “I would never allow my wife to go down to the car park with rubbish bags.

“Residents don’t use the underground car park for their cars because they will be stripped.”

There are also issues over construction, with owner occupiers discovering that there was no ventilation air vents in some of the bedrooms leading to problems with damp.

Though there was a vent-like structure visible on internal walls, an engineer discovered there was no duct to the exterior.

An independent surveyor found there was no insulation in the external walls in apartments at the eastern side of the Linnbhla apartment complex.

Residents complain of mildew, pools of water on what are now warped window sills, flimsy external doors and a host of other defects in what were trumpeted as a potent symbol of Ballymun’s rebirth and proof that private investment could successfully bolster public regeneration.

It is understand that a number of owner occupiers are in the process of initiating proceedings against the builders.

One resident has claimed that asthma which she contracted since moving into the Linnbhla complex is related to problems with the construction.

An official garda inspection of the Linnbhla complex, carried out in April by a Crime Prevention Officer, Sgt Jacinta Harley, and seen by the Sunday Independent, states, “I would have serious concerns about parking a vehicle in this underground car park as it is not in any way secure.

“I am amazed that a basic CCTV system has not been installed,” the garda sergeant reported.

Sgt Harley added: “Following my return visit to your apartment complex on April 6, 2007, I am disappointed to state that the security situation has improved little since my visit and recommendations in December 2005.”

Two weeks ago a stolen car was burnt out in the underground car park at Linnbhla. Residents had to be evacuated. The car was set alight beneath plastic sewer pipes on the roof of the underground car park which melted causing raw sewage to burst into the car park.

Now one of the biggest private investors in the new Ballymun is embroiled in a €22m legal battle with Pierse Santry Cross, an arm of Pierse Construction, the second biggest building firm in the State.

Multi-millionaire businessman Ken White, who has bought dozens of apartments in the new Ballymun, has refused to conclude deals on 10 apartments, claiming construction has been defective and the area has become beset by social problems and used by drug addicts and other criminals without hindrance.

He claims Dublin City Council, Ballymun Regeneration Limited and the builders have allowed the new complexes to degenerate into a slum-like condition.

He has been sued by Pierse Santry Cross who want him to conclude the €6m purchase contract and proceedings were opened in front of Mr Justice Kelly in the Commercial Court three weeks ago.

In turn, Mr White has issued a counterclaim against Pierse Santry Cross, the local authority and Ballymun Regeneration Ltd for €22m — a sum which includes the loss of Section 23 tax reliefs he says he would have received from the tranche of apartments at the centre of the dispute.

In a statement to the Sunday Independent, the Pierse Group said the company had “a demonstrable track record of excellence in the delivery of high quality and award winning residential, mixed use and commercial developments throughout Ireland and abroad.”

The statement continued: “The Group has contributed significantly to a number of large-scale and ambitious urban regeneration programmes in Ireland and Britain, including the ongoing regeneration of Ballymun.

“Pierse Santry Cross Limited has instituted High Court proceedings against Kenneth and Jacqueline White for specific performance of Contracts for Sale in respect of ten apartments which they contracted to purchase in November 2005, at The Turnpike, Santry Cross.

“In January 2007 Mr and Mrs White refused to complete the purchase of the apartments and referred the matter to Expert Determination, alleging that major defects existed in The Turnpike. The Expert Determination duly took place and decreed that no major defects existed and that Mr and Mrs White should complete the purchase of the ten units in question.

“Despite the binding ruling of an independent expert, Mr and Mrs White refused to complete and, as a result, High Court proceedings were instituted against them by Pierse Santry Cross Limited.

Those proceedings have now been accepted into the Commercial List of the High Court,” the statement continued.

“Mr and Mrs White have brought a counterclaim which will be fully defended by Pierse Santry Cross Limited. While the value of the claim being advanced by Mr and Mrs White is said to be €22m, no evidence has been provided to support that loss and in any event much of that purported claim has already been the subject of an adverse finding against them by the independent expert,” the statement concluded.

Last week, the Sunday Independent visited the Santry Cross Development and found disturbing levels of vandalism, with some areas filthy and unkempt and with inadequate security.

During a three-hour stay in and around the Linnbhla and the Hampton apartment complex, we gained unhindered access to all floors of both apartment complexes without challenge, easy access to the underground car park at Linnbhla, rear stairwells and other service areas.

We found that fire fighting fixtures had been vandalised. A fire hose was removed from the wall and lying on the ground and there was what appeared to be human excrement on stairwells.

There was evidence of drinking parties and general vandalism in many areas, with some areas daubed with graffiti and contaminated with filth and refuse and marked by bad odour.

In his counterclaim action against Pierse Santry Cross, Dublin City Council and Ballymun Regeneration, Mr White who is based in Harcourt Street and has substantial property interests throughout the city, has retained former Justice Minister Michael McDowell SC as his counsel.

The Sunday Independent has learned Mr White will make a number of claims. He will allege that the showcase Santry Cross estate common areas, the internal common areas, the car parks and the gardens of the development have been allowed to become run down, dirty and damp and foul smelling and contaminated by refuse, drug addicts’ paraphernalia and excrement.

Mr White’s legal team, Lyons Kenny Solicitors who are also acting for individual owner occupiers, will say the areas are accessible to trespassers at will, usable by drug addicts and other criminals and entirely unsupervised by any appropriate security personnel, porters or caretakers or any CCTV system.

Disturbingly, they will also make a number of serious claims in relation to fire alarms and fire escapes. They will say that an independent surveyor found many of the fire doors nailed shut on the date he inspected the site and many areas remain wholly devoid of locked gates and doors.

During the visit by the Sunday Independent, those fire doors were not locked.

Mr White’s counterclaim will declare that, far from being a high class residential development, the entire estate has become a development in rapid and serious decline towards slum status.

Mr White will also raise issues in relation to the management of the estate.

Another of his claims relates to what he alleges to be the absence of valid planning permission at the Hampton apartment complex. He says the apartment block was supposed to have a glazed skylight from the atrium to ground level but to save money the builders, Pierse Santry Cross, decided to replace it with a metal grill structure so converting what should have been a closed internal common area into an area, open to the elements, which is cold, damp and frequently flooded.

Mr White requested the local authority issue an Enforcement Notice directing the builders to replace the open air grill-like structure to comply with the planning permission. The Enforcement Notice was granted. But within days the Enforcement Notice was rescinded by Dublin City Council on the basis that the open mesh atrium was judged an exempted development. Mr White was told in a letter from a senior official the file would be closed. But less than a month later that decision was again reversed and he was told officially the open mesh atrium was not an exempt development and the file was again open.

This issue will be raised in the court case in the commercial courts early next year with Mr White’s claims vigorously challenged by Pierse Santry Cross limited.

Mr White declined to comment but said he remained totally committed to the regeneration of Ballymun. Mr Ciaran Murray, an Assistant County Manager and Managing Director of Ballymun Regeneration said that because proceedings had been issued he was not in a position to comment.

– JEROME REILLY