Which Irish political party do you trust most with the built environment?

None of them.

Although FF did some things for housing in the 1930’s.

With the exception of the green party no sizeable group can claim a pair of clean hands in relation to the Built Environment.

But the Built environment is not the only consideration at election time.

More important than party is generally location of the canidate, taking Kerry in the Locals where canidates from the big four parties ( FF FG Lab & SF) are all queing up to pass section 140 motions unopposed tells its own story.

All the major parties have had ministers of the Environment that presided over the destruction of the built environment most notably Neil Blaney when in Fianna Fail although I think he was kicked out for helping gun runners. Bobby Molloy also when in Fianna Fail although he got a fit of conscience and joined the PD’s then there was Tully of Labour who only lost his seat. I’m sure Fine Gael also had a crocker or two in their past.

But political parites are a bit like stock markets past performence is no gaurantee of potential future returns.

For these reasons Diaspora is voting for the Ecologist Brendan in the Europeans knowing that he can transfer on to Ivana Bacic and Eoin Ryan.

In the locals I am voting for a former mayor who gave the freedom of the City to Anna from Burma and has based her campaign on pinning down what the new development status for Rathmines in the development plan actually means.

No preaching, no getting arrested only a calm persitence that allows many different issues to move forward simultaneously.

I am not voting for Michael Donnolly of Fianna Fail who surfaced after 5 years in Rathfarnham with an invitation for free wine in the local pub.

Interesting the way in which Fiana Fails ‘Delivering for Dublin’ posters show infrastructure projects such as the Luas, Port Tunnel etc. Has anyone seen one of the Spire?

delievering for dublin bout 20 years over due mateinfact when it comes to longer term projects or even single buldings would be not right to say that not one party can soley claim to have delievered them… and by doing so shows politicing

Green Party?
Are you kidding?
The people who wanted to save the trees on O’Connell Street.
I wouldn’t trust their judgement – they don’t have any.

Re the Fianna Fail posters – there is one for the Liffey Boardwalk, which was the work of the city council. Don’t know if central government can claim credit for that. But it’s probably a matter of interpretation.

Well credit has to be given to Charles Haughey for…
1. IFSC
2. Temple Bar
3. Government Buildings
Credit should also go to Garrett Fitzgerald for the Urban Renewal programme he introduced in the 1980s, which was very successful.
It is a pity Abbottstown didnt go ahead – that would have been a major plus for the country and a tribute to Bertie. Of course this was stopped by the shortsightedness of 2nd rate politicians, who dont know the meaning of the word VISION.

Vision would include the development of a super stadium in the heart of the city, where people can get to it, not out in the boondocks a la Abbottstown.
Thank the lord for the so called 2nd rate politicians. If their VISION leads to a second rate state well then I say vive mediocrity

Originally posted by PaulC
Well credit has to be given to Charles Haughey for…
1. IFSC
2. Temple Bar
3. Government Buildings
Credit should also go to Garrett Fitzgerald for the Urban Renewal programme he introduced in the 1980s, which was very successful.

Credit must also be given to C.J. for tax evasion and closing hospitals while wearing 500 quid shirts paid for by his golden circle of cronies. He was a very clever rogue, Garret in contrast was an honest innocent who could have done with a little more cuteness.

Originally posted by PaulC
It is a pity Abbottstown didnt go ahead – that would have been a major plus for the country and a tribute to Bertie. Of course this was stopped by the shortsightedness of 2nd rate politicians, who dont know the meaning of the word VISION.

I also have many visions but unlike Bertie when I wake up I pinch myself and say ‘poor Diaspora’ it isn’t your money to blow on wildly premature projects.

The Luas agreed in 1996 not open.

The Macken St bridge not even started.

The commercial building I presume is an empty hospital wing.

I entirely agree with Michael O’Leary FAILED FAILED FAILED

Diaspora, yes Charles Haughey was a crook etc etc But we are talking here about contributions to the built environment. You cannot deny that Charles Haughey was responsible for the few projects I listed.

Also Abbottstown was more than just a stadium, it was an entire campus of sports facilities, which the country would have for a long time and would have been something we could have been really proud of. I dont wish to reopen this debate again, but Schumann if your mediocre politicians were running the country since its foundation then we would not have…
Ardnacrusha, IFSC, TempleBar, Government Buildings, Museum at Collins Barracks, or even new motorways (as your guys would probably have just widened existing roads) etc etc

Also I believe Garrett should also be credited with the DART. A pity successive governments since didnt extend it down the Maynooth line and the Kildare line.

Originally posted by PaulC
Diaspora, yes Charles Haughey was a crook etc etc But we are talking here about contributions to the built environment. You cannot deny that Charles Haughey was responsible for the few projects I listed.

No arguement this the fella was so power mad any opportunity votes was taken, except that the IFSC was incorporated in the 1986 Finance Act so Peter Barry should actually get the credit. I also feel that the developers Hardwicke should be credited for designing what was a damn good scheme for the 1980’s.

Originally posted by PaulC
Also Abbottstown was more than just a stadium, it was an entire campus of sports facilities, which the country would have for a long time and would have been something we could have been really proud of.

As stated before there already is a national sports campus at UL it was funded by an american philanthropist it has the best training environment possible for athletes, does a country of 3.8m people need two centres of excellence?
I also prefer owner occupier arrangements, GAA stand up and take a bow!!!!!

Originally posted by PaulC
I dont wish to reopen this debate again, but Schumann if your mediocre politicians were running the country since its foundation then we would not have…
Ardnacrusha, IFSC, TempleBar, Government Buildings, Museum at Collins Barracks, or even new motorways (as your guys would probably have just widened existing roads) etc etc

If Bertie learned to speak clear concise english schummann would be wrong, the Royster is just another example of where politics have decended to. After 10 years of economic boom we have a motorway to MONASTEREVEN on the county’s busiest road. Dublin Bus will start losing 22m a year from Breananns ‘Liberalisation’ of the Bus market. They are not mediocre they are quarter wits

Originally posted by PaulC
Also I believe Garrett should also be credited with the DART. A pity successive governments since didnt extend it down the Maynooth line and the Kildare line.

1989 Joe Doyle topping the poll in Dublin South East with Garrett scraping his seat from Rauri Quinns surplus, I am proud to have given part of my 5th year summer time to that campaign, although I have not voted Fine Gael since. Garrett thought about others first and himself second it was a different time. Things were very clear in those days Haughey & Flynn & Burke or Fitzgerald

Diaspora this is a website for coherent architectural comment, I think you would be better off logging on to http://www.in-need-of-gripe-water.com.
UL is a training facility NOT a sports campus for hosting events.

Originally posted by PaulC
Diaspora this is a website for coherent architectural comment, I think you would be better off logging on to http://www.in-need-of-gripe-water.com.
UL is a training facility NOT a sports campus for hosting events.

This thread is actually about the politics behind the built environment, or more to the point who do you trust with it.

It certainly has nothing to do with stadiums at edge city that weren’t built.

You are right that UL is not a stadium but Thomond Park and The Gaelic grounds are, as is Croke Park, as is Landsdowne Rd.

You have listed Government Buildings, the view from Merrion St is damaged by the Dept of Agriculture building on Kildare St.

Ardnacrusha opened in the 1920’s

Temple Bar was a disaster when started and was basically a collection of sites assembled for demolition. It is now basically a haven for stag parties and little else.

The M50 at Carrickmines Castle is exactly what this question is about, would another minister sign off on a scheme to destroy a medievel castle when other credible routes existed?

So the country is shit and we should all emigrate!!!
The glass is definitely half empty in your house Diaspora.

Originally posted by PaulC
So the country is shit and we should all emigrate!!!
The glass is definitely half empty in your house Diaspora.

Absolutely not, the potentail is much greater and with less political incompetence Ireland would have the potential to overtake places like Luxembourg and Norway.

Places where quality of life are taken as superior to having impresive headline GDP figures.

Your inability to support your own arguments is telling, just like the current crop you simply dodge the issues with a few cliches that went out with the indians. :rolleyes:

Your points dont make any sense. That is why a lot of people have these ridiculous debates with you.

This thread is actually about the politics behind the built environment, or more to the point who do you trust with it.

MODERATOR Is this correct? Has this website such a narrow focus? Some how I doubt it.

It certainly has nothing to do with stadiums at edge city that weren’t built.

Why can we not discuss that topic????? You are serious waffling here – STOP DIGGING.

You are right that UL is not a stadium but Thomond Park and The Gaelic grounds are, as is Croke Park, as is Landsdowne Rd.

Sports Campus Ireland was more than just a stadium. It included other sports facilities which we do not have e.g. indoor arena of any decent size. And the Gaelic Grounds and Thomond Park are hardly world class stadiums (btw I am from Limerick).

You have listed Government Buildings, the view from Merrion St is damaged by the Dept of Agriculture building on Kildare St.

What has that to do with the refurbishment of government buildings????

Ardnacrusha opened in the 1920’s

What is your point here????
Including Ardnacrusha is as relevant to this discussion as any other point.

The M50 at Carrickmines Castle is exactly what this question is about, would another minister sign off on a scheme to destroy a medievel castle when other credible routes existed?

I am sure Ireland isnt the only country that faces problems like these. The road will be built one way or the other. Projects of all sizes encounter problems – most of which you can preempt, but the rest you deal with – this will be dealt with.

So all in all none of your points actually make any sense. You started by getting into a tizz over Charles H v Garrett and you havent made sense since. Go back to the original question that Paul set and try to add something constructive to it rather than raving.

Originally posted by PaulC
Your points dont make any sense. That is why a lot of people have these ridiculous debates with you.

I’ll let your own replies speak for themselves

quote:
This thread is actually about the politics behind the built environment, or more to the point who do you trust with it.

Originally posted by PaulC
MODERATOR Is this correct? Has this website such a narrow focus? Some how I doubt it.

What is the narrow focus? everything is up for discussion but Space Architecture tends to stay on it’s own 2 threads

quote:
It certainly has nothing to do with stadiums at edge city that weren’t built.

Originally posted by PaulC
Why can we not discuss that topic????? You are serious waffling here – STOP DIGGING.

quote:
You are right that UL is not a stadium but Thomond Park and The Gaelic grounds are, as is Croke Park, as is Landsdowne Rd.

Originally posted by PaulC
Sports Campus Ireland was more than just a stadium. It included other sports facilities which we do not have e.g. indoor arena of any decent size. And the Gaelic Grounds and Thomond Park are hardly world class stadiums (btw I am from Limerick).

How many indoor sports will Ireland win medals in, I mean the National Gymnastics championships caused gridlock last year. The National Sports Campus was ditched and rightly so.

quote:
You have listed Government Buildings, the view from Merrion St is damaged by the Dept of Agriculture building on Kildare St.

Originally posted by PaulC
What has that to do with the refurbishment of government buildings????

It has to do with protecting the Architectural integrity of them, which was not done with the erection of the Dept of Agriculture building on Kildare St which overshadows them. It destroys any illusion of an intact streetscape,

[/B][/QUOTE]
quote:
Ardnacrusha opened in the 1920’s

What is your point here????
Including Ardnacrusha is as relevant to this discussion as any other point.
[/B][/QUOTE]

To give credit at election time for something delivered 75 years ago well that is digging for the sake of it.

quote:
The M50 at Carrickmines Castle is exactly what this question is about, would another minister sign off on a scheme to destroy a medievel castle when other credible routes existed?

Originally posted by PaulC
I am sure Ireland isnt the only country that faces problems like these. The road will be built one way or the other. Projects of all sizes encounter problems – most of which you can preempt, but the rest you deal with – this will be dealt with.

The road is years late, the castle is gone and the road will probably have to be retrospectively widened in about five years like the rest of the M50. They botched both

Originally posted by PaulC
So all in all none of your points actually make any sense. You started by getting into a tizz over Charles H v Garrett and you havent made sense since. Go back to the original question that Paul set and try to add something constructive to it rather than raving.

You beyond clarifying that two Limerick Stadia don’t have a roof, have added nothing except cliche and insult

I am not going to waste my time responding as you are constantly duck and weave in an attempt to stay in the argument. e.g.

To give credit at election time for something delivered 75 years ago well that is digging for the sake of it.

Where did you get this from??? Who said anything about giving credit at election time? Who am I supposedly giving credit to???
I mentioned it as an example of a visionary project by visionary men at the time, and which was/is a major contribution to the built environment in Ireland.
[If you are under the illusion that I am a Fianna Fail supporter you are totally mistaken]

You beyond clarifying that two Limerick Stadia don’t have a roof, have added nothing except cliche and insult

You bring it on yourself!!

Originally posted by PaulC
I am not going to waste my time responding as you are constantly duck and weave in an attempt to stay in the argument. e.g.

You simply haven’t defended your arguments at all, which were raised when you attacked Schumann for being too pessimistic.

Originally posted by PaulC
Where did you get this from??? Who said anything about giving credit at election time? Who am I supposedly giving credit to???
I mentioned it as an example of a visionary project by visionary men at the time, and which was/is a major contribution to the built environment in Ireland.
[If you are under the illusion that I am a Fianna Fail supporter you are totally mistaken]

Fait enough it was visionary but its relevance to protecting the existing built environment is questionable.

Originally posted by PaulC
You bring it on yourself!!

Discussing anything with incoherent idiots like yourself does tend to draw a predictable response but it is water off a ducks back,

Oh I used a cliche you must be wounded

Ohhh resorting to name calling!!!!
Therefore I win the argument. You lose!!!

PS I never accused Schumann of being pessimistic…so I think you have AGAIN proved yourself to be the incoherent one! Goodbye!!

Originally posted by PaulC
but Schumann if your mediocre politicians were running the country since its foundation then we would not have…
Ardnacrusha, IFSC, TempleBar, Government Buildings, Museum at Collins Barracks, or even new motorways (as your guys would probably have just widened existing roads) etc etc

You’re some clown

Can’t trust any of them really; Fianna Fail are willing to build, build, build; but they have any old shite thrown up as well as ploughing through historical archaeological sites (ignorant of architecture and culture) like Fine Gael and the PD’s, where as Labour, the Greens, Sinn Fein etc….are willing to not do anything at all, (besides complaining) keeping the country nicely stagnant and innactive (ignorant of architecture and culture).

still believe, and i think i said it before, we need a dictator. stop all this hippy crap and drag us into the 21st century. me for instance, personally i think i’ld make a great dictator….vote me….ha,ha… maybe i shold have stood, i make at least as much sense as dana anyway!!!!

Originally posted by kefu
Green Party?
Are you kidding?
The people who wanted to save the trees on O’Connell Street.
I wouldn’t trust their judgement – they don’t have any.

Can’t agree more and a party who should be on the forefront of public transport development I find them and their eh “judgement” very depressing at times.

Their idea of a public transport project is a wee bog railroad though County Mayo with three trains a day to be built for a minimum cost of €300 million. Meanwhile when Irish Rail comes up with a brilliant plan to move 60,000 passengers an hour through central Dublin under the city centre, they have little or nothing to say about it (to be fair all the other parties are just as bad). Yet they fall over themselves to prove to farmers in Mayo and Sligo that they will fight for their vital railway through the land of one-off housing.

The Irish Green Party’s approach to public transport development at best seems purely philosophical in nature, as part of some general environmentalist overture and not anything of substance. Eamon Ryan is a nice and intelligent guy, but the Irish Green Party really needs to forget about making some catholic priest’s life-long dream of using Irish taxpayers money to build a giant Hornby Railway in honour of some alleged 19th century paranormal event at the Knock Marian Shrine and concentrate on where the real problems are and where the real solutions are needed.

P11 I share your disappointment, The Latvian Greens are in Government and the economy is booming.

As for the trees on O’Connell St the motion for retention was moved by Chris De Burke of Sinn Fein,

I have had my second successive Friday night North of the river, the only drawback being the walk home have the taxi drivers reduced in number?