Victorian/Edwardian Window Styles

Hello,
You say there are practically no houses left with originals on your street – even if there is just one, that alone can be all you need to find out the design.
I’ve passed so many terraces where there’s nothing but a single house left with originals, and you think thank goodness for that, but at the same time if the owners are exposed to the allure of PVC, then the last remaining record is gone!

In your case, it’s more than likely single pane sashes were used – ‘one-over-ones’ as it were, were standard by 1880 or so.
A good indication of the original design is often the replacement windows themselves – if the aluminium frames are divided into two panes, then it’s likely this is what they once were in sash form, likewise if ‘two-over-two’, with a total of four panes.
You could also take a peek around the back of the houses on the street and see if there’s any originals there.
Alternatively you could find out what developer built your house, and find other developments by them in the area. They more often than not used the same windows. The developer’s name may be on the deeds of the house.
If you cannot find anything, or don’t have any info, the joiner making up the sashes will generally have a good idea – although this still isn’t as good as having accurate frames!

Don’t be afraid to ask neighbours who may have originals if you can measure up their frames for copies – this is the best way of getting accurate frames made up, and most people who have originals are those who appreciate them & are willing to ‘share’ them with you.

(As an aside, there should be lots of places in Dublin at this stage to recycle the aluminum frames)

Congrats on making the big backwards step forward 🙂

re the back of the houses – be wary – i’ve lived in houses that still seems to have their original windows to the front and rear – 1 over 1 on the front – 2 over 2 to the rear

True, but by 1905, single panes were so standardised that they prevailed pretty much everywhere.

Another type of window popular around this time was a Georgian upper sash and single-pane lower sash – perhaps something to wary of also Oblicorn, although they were mostly confined to grander one-off houses.

I wouldn’t know any joiners – others here will be able to recommend.

Ah the classic stained glass in aluminum move – classy 🙂
Can I ask if your house is detached, semi or terraced? Your neighbours should be able to tell you what windows were in their house originally if they changed them at the time. Frankly if it meant trawling through neighbours’ photo albums to find pics of family in the front garden with windows behind I’d do it! You may be a little more sane, in which case the Ntl Archives may have pics 🙂

Forgot to mention that other type of window you brought up – the standard Edwardian one with a vertical bar down the centre dividing the window into two vertically opening casements. These nearly always had a horizontal pane of stained glass at the top, that was either fixed, or opened inwards by tilting.
This seems the most likely if there is stained glass in the aluminiums. This may not be orginal galss as it is probably difficult to fit the original into metal frames, but it could be.
Your neighbour’s house should offer the most clues if it is attached to you.
Maybe you could contact the person you bought the house from either.

Next door really holds the key. Even if they didn’t replace them themselves, their replacements may hold the answer anyway in style.
Casements are exceptionally common around Drumcondra, esp along the Drumcondra Rd and its off-shoot streets. Sashes were generally still used to the rear even if casements were at the front, so don’t let any rear sashes con you either!

Anyway good look searching 🙂

I see your problem now Oblicorn – it’s a tricky one.
How frustrating to be part of a one-off semi, if only there were more on the street!

What I think is very clear is that the upstairs windows were simple one-over-one sashes, the proportions are pretty much correct.
Whereas I couldn’t confirm for sure, I’d be 99.9% sure!

Downstairs, I’d say sashes also prevailed, rather than casements (although still possible) but the sashes may very well have been of the design in the second pic. As you can see in that case, in order for the stained glass to be used, the upper sash has been made larger than the lower. However If these were used, it would be highly unlikely that the stained glass prevailed upstairs.

Looking your house, I have to say I wouldn’t have expected stained glass at all – simple one-over-one plain white sashes with horns seem the most likely. It is the stained glass in the aluminium frames (which incidently is no more Edwardian than I am) that is proving irritating. On first impressions one would expect there to be a precendent for that glass to exist, but there may never have been any – it could just be an olde worlde feature dreamed up at the time.
A clue could be the glass in or above the front door – is there any stained glass there? Or in the neighbour’s front door?

Have you asked the neighbour about their windows – they look like they were installed around 1990-96, i.e fairly recently.

Ah – seeing that up close, it is concievable that it’s original – not an expert in stained glass though!
What about your front door – please don’t say that’s gone too…

Delightful isn’t it!

Is the glass in your door the same as your neighbour’s? That should tell you if it’s original.
Also, is there that leading effect on your upstairs windows too – it’s hard to see from the pic. This could also offer a clue, considering next door has it too on their PVCs.
Overall, considering the design of the house which is of the more simple and modern design than the more ‘heavy’ granite-linteled, granite dressed Edwardians with a deeper red brick, I would expect simple one-over-ones. But this is just my impression – it is possible it had casements, it is possible they were leaded, and it’s possible they had stained glass! It’s also possible they were sashes with all of the above!
The neighbours should hold the answer if they replaced them – although if they did that to the house, that would be the first and last time I’d be speaking to them 🙂

I just hope your neighbour won’t be bothered by the close up shots of their house being published. I presume you’ve told them…..!

Must admit to having a nosey in the window…
Also their brickwork could do with a bit of repointing 🙂

Lovely house, lucky you!

Can anyone comment on from what point the actual glass stops being worthy of conservation. I think we all love the irregularity of georgian glass but at some point glass became a uniform commodity. When was that? Turn of last century? I refer to flat sheets of glass rather than the attractive curved glass crafted mid century.

btw:The shots of houses appear to be taken from public road so should be public domain info. No problems there?

The 1920s as far as I know is broadly the time when glass production became standardised with the development of more modern techniques but it could have been a bit earlier. But it still wasn’t until the mid-century that the most recent method of glass-making came into being.

One good example of very late curvey glass is Eason’s on O’Connell St, where many of the panes in its upper sash windows have such glass. It’s quite an extraordinary sight from inside if the light catches in a certain way. I’m not sure though if these were made in the Victorian plate/cylinder traditon in the early 20s or in the more modern, but equally flawed early 20th century technique.

and how about gravity flow – Does modern glass flow? ie: in 100 years will people marvel at the beauty of my pilkington sealed glazing units and the lovely shimmer of the reflected light – or will they always be perfectly flat?

I’m afraid Lotts that glass flow is something of an urban legend, i.e. it doesn’t 🙂
Your Pilkingtons will be as flat as a pancake in 1,000,000 years let alone 100 – it’s a very appealing concept though!

Just looking at this site below which is handy for dates, the way glass is made today is the original Pilkington method from 1959 (although invented around 56) where the glass floats on a bath of molten tin, resulting in a flawless surface.
It would appear that largely flawless modern glass came about in 1923 with the Pilkington Polished Plate – would have taken a few years to get to Ireland though, and for it to be in widespread use.
Presumably this is the stuff used in all Corpo schemes round the country in the 30s, 40s & 50s.

Must take a look on late 1920s Upper O’Cll St and see if there’s any there (don’t have much to be doing) – though frankly I’d be lucky to find original windows let alone the feckin glass…:(

http://www.londoncrownglass.co.uk/History.html

did anyone ever recommend a person or company who would put in timber sash windows?. I’d like to replace aluminium windows with timber sash double glaze in dublin north wall.next week. Please and thank you!

Ah here i go reviving old threads via google searches again! I would be inclined to agree with graham and say that the house has sashes rather than casements. There’s lots of similar houses around the harolds cross area from the same era and they all have sashes with just the basic 1 over 1. The proportions of the window dont seem right for casements – which are what a lot of houses around terenure would have had…… but only downstairs….. sashes on the upper floors…. thats another possibility.

Whilst on the topic I’m making a victorian sash window for my Leaving Cert construction project and have unearthed an awful lot of technical specs if anybody is interested. Also I can recommend an excellent joiner (friend of my dads) who does an awful lot of high quality replica sash / casement windows and doors for restoration jobs on houses. Glenlyon Enterprises in Dublin 12 – he’ll be in the phonebook.

And finally one question which i can’t manage to find a direct answer to…. it came up in conversation here before on the ‘irish say no to pvc windows’ thread…… whats the difference between the horns on a victorian and a georgian sash window?? I’ve managed to find the differences in the glazing bars etc… but not the horns…

Dave.

Edit:

On looking at the above picture of the window and the door, id say that casements with the stained glass on top of them were on the lower floor, with the 1 over 1 sashes on top. ill Get some pictures of similar houses tomorrow afternoon. I know this thread is so old that the job is probably long since finished but its nice to know!