"value engineering"??

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    • #709523
      CaptainCrisps
      Participant

      From today’s Irish Times…

      Underground stations with bare concrete walls, no canopies over entrances, no escalators from street to concourse levels and fewer ticket machines are among the “value engineering” elements of the planned Dublin metro line linking St Stephen’s Green with Swords.

      Oh GOD. So even though they’re going to spend a mountain of money on this thing and waste God knows how much money on pointlerss consultations and reports, we’re going to end up with a load of grotty stations that people will be too scraed to enter after dark. An Irish solution, eh? πŸ™

    • #790913
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      This proves the reality that is around us on a daily basis; the lowest common denominator is being used in every aspect of human life….

      The biggest contribution to social capital “the improvement in transporting people” is to be reduced to a cattle herding exercise….

      The very thing that attracts people to using public transport in Copenhagen, Washington and Moscow (regardless of political or economic leanings) is the quality of the transportation environment.

      Bring on the graffiti artists because canvas is all that the new stations will be

    • #790914
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @shadow wrote:

      …..

      Bring on the graffiti artists because canvas is all that the new stations will be

      remember; they will also be piss-holes for drunks and junkies…..

    • #790915
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Given the thing is going to cost five billion, are they really saving a significant amount of money with having bare concrete walls etc.

      How much could they be saving here, a few million?

      Is giving Dublin a crap metro really worth the saving which will surely be a small percentage of the overall cost?

    • #790916
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      ugh i despair. I really do. Another MFI, IKEA, Fisher Price Yellow pack piece of shite for Dublin. Who was in charge of the DoT at the time. Oh right. it was Calamity Cullen. Well maybe the new guy will intervene. Oh no it’s M3 Dempsey.
      Bollox.

      They’ll never learn. Great urban transit can become the symbol of the city – NY Subway and Grand Central Station, the London Underground, Paris Metro, Shanghai MagLev. It can instill civic pride and impose order on a city through grand designs, reliability, and cleanliness. What we’ll get is a piss-sodden, substrata underworld of junkies and drunks.

      Thanks lads. really thanks

      also from the article

      “But the report conceded that an airport-city centre line “has a relatively poor economic performance”. This was to be expected as it included “the most expensive part of metro . . . without yet reaching the range of markets” that would be served by extending it to Bray.

      Although the government had decided in January 2002 to proceed with a metro linking Swords with Bray, the southern leg of this route – now partly served by the Sandyford Luas line – was not included in its Transport 21 investment programme unveiled in November 2005. “

      well duh. If you take Dundrum, “Sandyford City”, Cherrywood and Bray out of the equation as Martin the Magician did with his T21 con job, of course the economic case falls to feckin pieces, especially when you consider the track is already there for much of it and easily segregated along the rest.

      fucks sake

    • #790917
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @CaptainCrisps wrote:

      From today’s Irish Times…

      Oh GOD. So even though they’re going to spend a mountain of money on this thing and waste God knows how much money on pointlerss consultations and reports, we’re going to end up with a load of grotty stations that people will be too scraed to enter after dark. An Irish solution, eh? πŸ™

      OMFG:mad: 😑 😑 😑 😑 😑 😑 I must restrain myself but on the inside im fuming with anger at what this is going to turn out like:mad: ‘Bare concrete walls’ , ‘no escalators’……..and there I was thinking we might build something fantastic like the Washington metro:( I despair for this bloody country – I really do.

    • #790918
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @darkman wrote:

      OMFG:mad: 😑 😑 😑 😑 😑 😑 I must restrain myself but on the inside im fuming with anger at what this is going to turn out like:mad: ‘Bare concrete walls’ , ‘no escalators’……..and there I was thinking we might build something fantastic like the Washington metro:( I despair for this bloody country – I really do.

      Well, the DC metro has bare concrete walls and originally had no canopies over the entrances. Its only in the last few years that they went back and started retrofitting the older station entrances with canopies. Also, bare concrete can be beautiful – Trinity’s Berkeley Library comes to mind….

    • #790919
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      I hate undergrounds. They are boring, depressing modes of transport. What’s the point in this airport metro anyway? Why won’t anybody talk about the DART spur? This metro malarkey will be a total waste of money and time. A dart spur would take a year and be cheap. We could start buying the extra capacity trains NOW. Have an O-Connell street-airport connection in no time! This underground stuff is wasteful prestige horse muck.

    • #790920
      admin
      Keymaster

      Totally disagree

      If something is worth doing it is worth doing well; London Underground has some fantastic stations such as the deco Picadilly Circus or the modern stations on the Jubilee Line Extension at places such as Waterloo, Canada Water and Canary Wharf.

      As a regeneration tool it is vital that the underground architecture sets an example.

    • #790921
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @adhoc wrote:

      Also, bare concrete can be beautiful – Trinity’s Berkeley Library comes to mind….

      This was my first thought too. Admittedly, not having escalators, if true, is a mistake, and reducing the number of ticket sale points can only increase the temptation to fare dodge, but the ‘bare concrete’ part of the argument in that article undermined the other more valid points.

    • #790922
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Indeed, many of the afore mentioned Jubilee line stations use a lot of bare concrete to beautiful effect. Not least the Canary Wharf station.

    • #790923
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @phil wrote:

      Indeed, many of the afore mentioned Jubilee line stations use a lot of bare concrete to beautiful effect. Not least the Canary Wharf station.

      For “bare concrete” to look well means expense . Metal shuttering extra well compacted concrete . Can be cheaper to render / tile over .
      And why not expand stations to provide retail / refeshment outlet spaces . OK , in parctice , Most are overpriced (think Tie Rack ) but when waiting 20 /30 mins for transport at least they provide some diversion together with some passive surveilance which more vulnerable commutters would appreciate

    • #790924
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      An interesting point: is concrete that originates from economy less artistically ‘worthy’ than concrete that has been chosen for its own sake?

    • #790925
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @GrahamH wrote:

      An interesting point: is concrete that originates from economy less artistically ‘worthy’ than concrete that has been chosen for its own sake?

      Yes, simply because of the fact that ‘engineered concrete’ chosen for its own sake (architectural value) usually has a higher spec and higher labour intensity… ie a spec of crushed brick, washed sea shells and 25 mm aggregate sized granite chips….. labour intensive uninterrupted pours and sand blasted…..

    • #790926
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Trying to save a few quid on the final touches of a staggeringly expensive project like this is insane! The only way to get value out of this is to get people using it. People won’t use it if it’s grotty, scary and neglected-looking. Which it will be if the stations are cheap, concrete holes.
      Bare concrete will absolutely not work in underground train stations in this country. Any flat surface will be covered in graffiti in minutes, so the aesthetic argument is pointless. I think glossy, easy-to-wash tiles are the only option. And CCTV cameras every few feet. And bright lights, expensive finishes and a regular garda presence. Otherwise, prepare for the muggers/ junkies/ loitering drunks…

    • #790927
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @brianrochford wrote:

      For “bare concrete” to look well means expense . Metal shuttering extra well compacted concrete . Can be cheaper to render / tile over .

      Fair point, I am sure the look of the concrete on the Jubilee line was very costly. I think I was just jumping to the defense of my favourite building material πŸ™‚ .

      Whilst I agree that it is important to have good quality stations, and am particularly fond of the individual architects for individual stations idea, does anyone know for sure that systems that have not put as much money into their stations are not as successful? The Amsterdam Metro comes to mind for me. Many of its stations seem to be fairly basic. Overall though, I think well designed stations can become a symbol of pride for people, and are probably worth the extra investment

    • #790928
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @AndrewP wrote:

      Trying to save a few quid on the final touches of a staggeringly expensive project like this is insane!

      Yes- I’m reminded of the old joke about the woman in a restaurant ordering a knickerbocker glory with chopped nuts, extra raspberry sauce, sliced banana, chocolate buttons, etc. etc., and when the waiter asks if she wants a cherry on top she replies ‘No thanks, I’m on a diet.’

      Or does the RPA fear that escalators will be seen as a ‘wafer thin mint’ too far?

    • #790929
      admin
      Keymaster

      @phil wrote:

      Overall though, I think well designed stations can become a symbol of pride for people, and are probably worth the extra investment

      I think the expense is justified if it can be linked to above ground regeneration; Canada Water is a perfect example of this where a highly impressive station was built in an area that was very demographically challenged prior to the station opening.

      In the context that developers are paying mega bucks in development contributions I very much doubt that they would welcome yellow pack finishes if the demand rational for their schemes are based largely on transport connectivity and the provision rationale based on regeneration led hope value.

    • #790930
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The Luas is a case in point – I’m not sure it would be as successful as it is if wasn’t clean, modern and expensive-looking. The company that’s running it faces an uphill battle in terms of maintenance on a lot of the red line. But they’ve kept ahead of the constant vandalism so far. Underground stations are by their nature vulnerable to undesirables. I fear a “basic”-looking underground station would rapidly become a manky-looking station. Let’s face it, Dublin can be a bit rough and civic pride is in pretty short supply…

    • #790931
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      take a seat they are being very vague… Surely the minister for transport must have read this Thread?

      I was wondering do you know where you get or how expensive this stone below is

      baile na hinse co na gaillimhe is?

      or

      an clochan co na gaillimhe

      or

      conamara

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