U2 in ‘favourites’Â’ row over studio

Will the DDDA be displaying the shortlist publicly?

This news does not fill me with hope for a disciplined and level playing field in respect of comeptitions in ireland. Since the copy for the Times would have to logged before Thursday to allow for printing and distribution could mean that the process had already been skewed before the entries were recived on Friday. Also since the technical requirements of the brief were quite strict, perhaps over restrictive does this mean that they were used to justify restricting the opportunites so that others might transcend these requirements. I can see the jurors report “many of the entries failed to grasp the specific qualities of the locaiton we have decided to award the prize to Mr Starchitect because of his/her audacity to ignore the requirements to present a statement of unsurpassed genius”.

As for the picture in the Sunday Times of “an entry to the competition”, it looked great, but as far as I can make out, wouldn’t be an acceptable entry.

Perhaps Paul can persuade the DDDA to publish a website of all the entries. And if the results of the competition indicated a difficulty of meeting the planning requirements maybe they could select 20 to 30 competitors (from the initial selection) to rework schemes based on relaxed conditions and the ideas involved in the first submission. I would be interested in seeing the design published in the times and how it meets or does not meet the requirements of the brief, as per the recent respondant to this forum has indicated.

Any one got a copy of that image that was in the Sunday Times

regarding shadow’s point – google is returning this thread as very prominent results (most relevant) for searches on the tower, so biggo traffic will certainly pass through here (a la spike) when crunch time comes down…

fjp

when is the decision expected? i didn’t see it mentioned in the brief which is unusual…

they should just give it to gehry

ya, i mean gehry produces such original designs these days that what dublin really needs to reach the pantheon of global cities is another gehry-by-numbers… then we’ve made it!

sw101 – they should just give it to gehry

Any particular reason? Have you seen something the rest of us haven’t? Or is this just a blind piece of Gehry worship?

I agree, I have’nt seen the design…..but it should be given to a big name. I’m sure Gehry would produce something of a focal point and a talking point for everyone….and that’s what Dublin needs to put it up there with the big guns of cities today…..else it will just stagnate and fade back into the doldrums of insignificance. ZZzzzzzzzzzz!

The whole point of an anonymous competition is to allow architects to compete on their merits rather than their reputation. Maybe there is someone out there better than Gehry!

Ok, lets see what this means. 500 entries, thats €50,000 in fees, assume another €100 per entry for just mounting, post production etc., thats another €50,000. Assume an average of €50 per entry for carriage (post etc. some arrived by hand), that’s another €25,000. If each entrant spent an average of 100 hours on the project, assume an average, really low (due to the possibility of students, unpaid work, uncharged work by offices etc) of €20 an hour, that’s another €1,000,000. Is a picture emerging yet. The DDDA are offering a single prize, it seems of €12,000 which in light of above a ridiculous reward for the investment above. Assume that 20% of the entries ustilised speicalist 3d cad services and other production systems at a cost of about €1,000 per entry, then we would have another €100,000 making a grand total of €1,225,000 (€1.225 million). At the very least the DDDA should invest in prublising the results in a book and CD format. Even if the cost of this is €10,000, they would still have a profit of €28,000 (not counting expenses), not to mention the sheer level of publicity surrounding the competition. Mind you it shows the level of frustration out there and the demand for more access to the market…. Hope this makes sense. Maybe I should run my own competition, the free design services garnered are remarkable.

It’s gonna be a ridiculous competition if we think it should be given to somebody just because he/she has a big name such as gehry. Is it fair to all the competitors?

if they really want a big name for this building, why don’t they just ask gehry, zaha, koolhass or whoever has a big name to have this project rahter than hold a competition.

P.S. this competition is the most confusing competition I have ever encountered. no clear schedule, hardly get a reply from them after you ask them questions via e-mail. difficulty of meeting the planning requirements.very expensive entry fee……

I totaly agree with shadow.

I will simply quote vitruvius as his writing holds alotf wisdom that is often ignored in our times.

“As for philosophy, it makes an architect high-minded and not self-assuming, but rahter renders him courteuos, just and honest without avariciousness. This is very important, for no work can be rightly done without honesty and incorruptibility. Let him not be grasping nor have his mind preoccupied with the idea of receiveing perquisites, but let him with dignity keep up his position by cherishing a good reputation. These are among the preceps of philosophy”

Vitruvius, The ten books of Architecture. Book 1 Chapter 1 “The education of the architect” Section 7

So whilst it may not be possible to remove the members of U2 from the jury. It would be highly commended for Frank Gehry to remove himself or withdraw from the competition. He was not after all present (or indeed refused) to enter the competition for the World Trade Centre Sites

“Frank Gehry won few friends by refusing to take part, suggesting the $40,000 fee for participants was demeaning. “

Deyan Sudjic
Sunday February 2, 2003
The Observer

shadow wrote:
….Also since the technical requirements of the brief were quite strict, perhaps over restrictive does this mean that they were used to justify restricting the opportunites so that others might transcend these requirements….

if this is true, what a joke!

can anyone post the news?

March 02, 2003
U2 in ‘favourites’ row over studio
Scott Millar

A COMPETITION to design a studio for U2 in Dublin’s docklands has caused an international row after a British candidate claimed the band was showing favouritism.

More than 500 bids to design the building, likely to be Dublin’s highest, were received by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority (DDDA) by last Friday’s deadline. They are believed to include a proposal from Frank Gehry, one of the world’s best-known architects and the designer of the Bilbao Guggenheim museum.

An English architect has lodged a formal complaint with the DDDA, claiming that members of U2 recently visited Gehry’s studio in Santa Monica, California. The judging panel for the architectural competition includes Adam Clayton, a member of the band.

According to the rules of the competition, entrants are to be disqualified if a “participant discloses his or her identity or attempts to influence in any way the decision of the jury”.

The complainant said that contact between members of the band and a competitor, which he alleged included discussions about the project, left other entrants with only two options. “One is to boycott the event, something which people who have spent months on their designs will not do,” he said. “Or else create something that would exactly resemble a Frank Gehry building.”

A spokesman for U2 accepted that Bono and Gehry had a “long-standing friendship which predates the Dublin Docklands competition. Neither Bono or nor Edge has any involvement with the competition. Adam Clayton is due to be one of the panellists who will judge the anonymously submitted entries and I’m sure you can appreciate members of U2 operate as individuals”.

Organisers have attempted to play down the row. A spokesman for the DDDA said: “We have received a complaint and are having a look into it, but as the complaint is anonymous, the authority is not unduly concerned.”

A spokesman for Gehry confirmed that members of U2 have visited the architect’s studio several times over the last few years, including a few months ago. “We never once discussed the Dublin Docklands competition with any members and we are absolutely certain the outcome of the competition will not be influenced on our behalf,” he added.

Other participants are unhappy that the competition was not as widely advertised as before. One complained that it was not advertised on Death by Architecture, a leading website. “A number of my friends in America, who would have loved to have entered, were unaware until too late that the competition was being held,” said the entrant, who also had to remain anonymous or risk expulsion.

The number of submissions has outstripped expectations, however, and it is likely to take several months to judge. Among the 500 entries are several innovative designs including one in the shape of a large sail and another whose gentle sloping form resembles a wave.

There are also less professional entrants. One fan from Spain has entered a building in the shape of a harp, which has been described as “amateur in the extreme”.

Jennifer Boyer, an American architect based in Dublin, said the designs show the changes in architectural taste following the destruction of the twin towers. “There has been a huge rethink of the concept of tower building,” she said. “There has been a new thinking to get beyond sheer height which is evident in the designs both to replace the twin towers and here.”

U2 were initially dismayed at being forced by the DDDA to move out of their studio in a renovated warehouse on the campshire of Hanover Quay. The authority wants to develop the area as an open-space public amenity. After initial protests, the band agreed to move to a new building in docklands.

The new building will house a mix of commercial and residential property as well as the band’s recording studio. The multi-million euro project is due to be completed within three years.

Does anyone have the image that accompanied the article published March 02 in The Times (or a detailed description?)…and how is it possible for The Times to have access to any of the submissions, when the jury hasn’t even seen them yet? Surely this will have some effect on this entrants anonymity?…

I can attach a scan of the image from the Times if Paul is OK with it.

Originally posted by Andrew Duffy
I can attach a scan of the image from the Times if Paul is OK with it.

Can you email me that pic?
My email is
vvvvv4@yahoo.com
thanks.

Originally posted by GregF
I agree, I have’nt seen the design…..but it should be given to a big name. I’m sure Gehry would produce something of a focal point and a talking point for everyone….and that’s what Dublin needs to put it up there with the big guns of cities today…..else it will just stagnate and fade back into the doldrums of insignificance. ZZzzzzzzzzzz!

For the love of God can we not give it to Gehry please. Every major city in the world is going to have a Gehry or a Gehry rip-off in the next 20 years. This is a chance for someone with a new voice to make their name. It is exactly this kind of project that propells a designer into the premier league and to saddle us with an architect who , although interesting, is already beginning to seem dated and jaded,well, its a ludicrous waste.
Why must we fall back on a ‘sure thing’ when we finally have the chance of creating a scheme that is innovative and exciting and contenious. We should be taking chances on this one not playing it safe.

The Architectural Competitions for the Architect is compelling and titillates the egocentric side that the Architect cannot deny .If you do deny then quite frankly (no pun intended) you’ve lost the race before you start! It is therefore a vice which the Architect can not deny but knows it utter madness as it takes time, resources (I note previous accounting on this issue) and energy all of which many argue are best channelled towards actual fee related work. Therefore a dilemma which the Developer, Investor or competition sponsor panders to and in fact takes advantage of as it is a little like the power of Chocolate (I refer to the movie). But what options does the Architect have: Basically-Yes or No to entering is clear:

If Yes then how much and for how long etc, etc.

If No then a short period of second thoughts, which are rekindled, when the results are announced.

So, a short psychological synopsis and perhaps not applying to all but I suspect to many!

It is therefore disappointing that the “authorities” have not recognised the hype this one would conjure up. I mean let’s face it, a Tower and U2 -an Architect’s dream for a brief (brings back those arcane student briefs!) and therefore a real fantasy for the ego to coerced with and by.

The rewards are obvious (beyond that of fee) and not that one would become immortal but damn close providing it’s a brilliant project!

Therefore the pressure is enormous.

It is with all this in mind that it is very discouraging, that if the rumour is true, all the 500 have followed the pied piper in a dance, which should never have started. It is certainly a bad time for the competition as a tool for moderating such issues.

DDDA should have realised this issue and given the Jury a chance to act realistically ( and heaven forbid professionally) by having a 2 stage: aka Grand Egyptian Museum Competition (UIA rules). But it’s too late for that and so………….

Therefore solutions:

1.1 Elect Frank Gehry to the Jury (on the basis his project is merely a picture or sketch which U2 had some fascination with).
Or
1.2 Simply disqualify FG entry (if it is his) as it clearly breaks the rule of anonymity
Or
1.3 FG withdraws gracefully

2.0 Then publish the Whole jury list

3.0 Publish the Date of assessment and results

4.0 Publish all entries (medium to be decided but hard copy is always a favourite) and issue to all Competitors

5.0 Exhibit a Short list of project

6.0 Publish the Juries Report(s)

Lastly, good luck and very much lastly remember: all Publicity is Good publicity! That’s why we do it!

Why not get Ghery or a big gun to design the tower….Ghery’s best work is happening today….he is an international star in architecture and what ever he does would inspire the cloth headed drones that we have produced in architecture to emulate him. Having big names in Dublin and Ireland would be an inspiration for all and give a lift to architecture in this somewhat parochial country ….can anyone not see that.
Again it will have to be built so as the penny will drop….then everyone will be jumping on the bandwagon…as is always the case.
Seeing is believing….as doubting Thomas once said.

Oh yes lets import someone who is already beginning to parody himself (‘doing his best work at the moment’????- have you seen that music centre), rather than create our own design renaissance as the Scadinavian’s managed to do in the last century.
They created a legacy through self support and the development of national identities in this area and have continued to develop these initial innovations into the by proxy brand that Swedish, Danish and Norwegian design is today. Ireland could be on the brink of a great design age. We have well educated and talented young contributors who, if given the chance could spark a golden era in our cultural history.
Even if the winner of this competition isn’t Irish ( and I’m not suggesting that they should be) I’m shocked at the suggestion that the project should just be delivered on a plate to someone who has repeatedly demonstrated his interest in nothing more than furthering his own legacy.

P.s Greg.F you might want to learn how to spell Gehry.

Isn’t looking outside your own region and believing all is good and great from the mighty kingdom also parochial thinking. Admiration and respect for other design disciplines, methodology and aesthetic is only too normal, but a belief in the same as some sort of holy grail is questionable. Yes, a phenomena, aka the black obelisk of 2001 Space Odyssey, is a truly remarkable attribute of a successful project, but there are many others who I think can deliver such.

If one wants a champion to bring forward the debate on local culture then choose wisely, I would recommend.

The question is: is this the attribute the sponsor’s of the competition are seeking from the winning entry? No idea, with the only clue being in the brief which is full of same old waffle you get in any architectural brief!

If this competition is to become some sort of criticism session of one Architect and his Architecture surely this has wasted the time, energy and money of the 500 or so who made the submission.

Maybe I doubt if a young buck in architecture today can produce a significant and stylish landmark for this project.
Too many ‘Westlifes’ today ….a ‘U2’ heavy weight is required.
I hope then I am proved very much wrong and a new budding practice comes up with the goods that hit the right note.

Originally posted by DogsonFire
If this competition is to become some sort of criticism session of one Architect and his Architecture surely this has wasted the time, energy and money of the 500 or so who made the submission.

This point is a very good one. Its not really about whether you like Gehry of not. The issue is one of self interest. Rather then proliferate the agendas of already established architects, could not a project like this be seized upon as a chance to ‘discover’ a new talent, perhaps one that is closer to home. The subject material of the brief is inherently ‘youth/pop culturally’ orientated. To sacrificially donate the chance to someone so obvious is somewhat perverse.

I just hope that thing the Sunday Times printed that looks like a giant black gantry doesn’t get built….

Originally posted by AndrewP
I just hope that thing the Sunday Times printed that looks like a giant black gantry doesn’t get built….

I have to confess to not seeing this image. Is it possible to see this somewhere other than the Times, a publication i’m unable to have access to.