The Pro-Cathedral, Marlbrough Street. Help needed.
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As a student of arccitecture here in dublin I very often have to visit and discuss varies historic sites around Dublin. Amoung the churches in my lastest study is the Pro-Cathedral on Marlbrough St.
My first stop was a book I own, “Irish Cathedrals, Churches and Abbeys – published by Caxten Editions”.
Here it is said that the architect of the cathedral was unknown, and that the winning design was sent in from Paris marked only with the letter P. But a quick serch here informs me that it was designed by one John Sweetman.
Who am I to believe. Inaccuracies are common. And neither should be taken at face value. Help please.Not being at home with my book collection, I cannot say where I got Sweetman from, but I have seen George Papworth (1781-1855) mentioned on other websites on the ‘net, as well as the “unknown architect”. All I can say is that I must have had good reason to implicate Sweetman.
You could also contact Brendan Grimes
http://www.ncad.ie/faculties/hadcom/research/phdresearch/phdresearch.shtmlHe is a descendent of the donor of the site to the church although fluent in built heritage Natural environment is more his area of real expertise
Re Architect for Pro-Cathedral: see thread “Reordering and destruction of Irish Cathedrals – St Colman’s Cathedral, Cobh” posting no. 415 which contains a quote from an earlier posting on the same thread.
@Paul Clerkin wrote:
You could also contact Brendan Grimes
http://www.ncad.ie/faculties/hadcom/research/phdresearch/phdresearch.shtmlI could contact Brendan Grimes, and he would be able to help. But seeing as he is the person who gave me this assignment it is a little pointless. If I can’t get an answer by the time I return to college, i’ll have to ask him but I’d rather sovle it myself.
Christine Casey’s just-published ‘Buildings of Ireland- Dublin’ (Yale UP) gives 4 pages to the Pro-Cathedral, including a plan by Brendan Grimes:), but it doesn’t give a definitive architect’s name.
‘The identity of Troy’s [the archbishop patron] architect remains unknown, despite the survival of detailed building accounts.’ (p.126)
And here’s a link to the page Praxiteles mentioned. https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?p=44483#post44483
@Linked Thread wrote:
Plans for a church in the revivalist Greek Doric style, submitted by an architect who signed himself “P”, won the commission. It is accepted that the architect was George Papworth (1781-1855).
I have seen Papworth named before, but is that based on fact or is it just speculation. He would of been in Ireland at the time, not too far from the time of his design for Heusten Bridge. He also fits the “P” initial, but some sources suggest that the entry was sent from france, maybe the architect travelled to Paris to study the St. Philippe-le-Roule along side his design.
Also, if anybody knows basic materials of construction, it would help alot.
@Bren88 wrote:
Also, if anybody knows basic materials of construction, it would help alot.
Again, the Casey book has all this. If it’s not yet in your library, it’s in ‘all good bookshops’. Just pop in with a good digital camera;) .
The pamphlet Paul refers to should be in the National Library, and more than likely is in the DIT and UCD (Richview) libraries. The UCD catalogue is on line, the Richview library welcomes guests.
Thanks to everyone who helped out, especially to MacLeinin who went way out of his way to get the entire contents of the heritage series book on the Pro to me. I’ve the history of the Pro perfect now,
even though i never did find out who the Architect was, nobody knows. Its a toss up between Sweetman, Papworth and Hippolyte Le Bas.John Sweetman was a Dubliner living in excile in Paris since the 1798 rebellion. This supports the basis that the church was based on a newly completed parisian cathedral. At the time the original drawings were summited, it was commented that they were draw by an amateur, this goes against the idea that Hippolyte Le Bas was the architect. Although some people believe that the design was a joint venture with Le Bas doing some of the work but the bulk, including delivery was left to Sweetman.
*Adapted from a few sources, you might of got Sweetman from the heritage series pamplet. It might be in best interest to change the site’s page on the Pro to included the other possible architects or included a note saying that Sweetman cannot be comfirmed.
Just on the interior, did anyone ever knock (okay rap with your knuckles) against the interior columns of the building? You’d assume them to be of Portland stone, but they sound decidedly hollow! Presumably timber, indeed were they not early 19th century I would have thought them to have something of a cast resin quality!
Very strange – iron pillars encased in Doric timber shrouds?That is an interesting comment about the doric pillars in the Pro-Cathedral and may supply a clue to the architect. I have a recollection of reading that Papworth specialized in the use of cast iron and was an early enthusiast: viz. King’s Bridge. He also did quite a bit of work on the Dublin to Drogheda railway – like a someone else about whom I have had reason recently to comment .
I cannot imagine a recently built “cathedral” in Paris in 1800. We may be talking of La Madeleine -but I have to check the dates. I will be back on this point.
I should of said church and not cathedral, and was refering to the St. Philippe-le-Roule in Paris on which the pro is based, with the exception of the front portico which comes from an athens temple. Was completed in 1784, Not too long before the start of construction on the Pro. I’ll have to have a look at the columns inside the church, i’ll be stopping by tomorrow to get a few pictures for finish off the report.
Also taking a trip over to Saint Saviour’s Church on dominick street (which is far harder to find infomation on than the Pro)re St Savour’s Dominick St.: why not start with with JJ McCarthy and the Gothic Revival in reland by Jeanne Sheehy. I believe the interior has been totally destroyed and vandalized.
The closing date was approaching so i decided to do my own work on St Saviour’s. With a visit to the site to get my own ideas and also a scan throught the web site. And your right the interior is completely changed due to that bane of all historical churches the liturgical requirements of the second vatican council.
Let us get right about the Second Vatican Council:
The kind of mass hesterical vandalism that has gone on in Ireland has nothing to do with the Second Vatican Council nor the revision of the rites and ceremonies of the Catholic Church. It has much to do with some very psychotic compulsions lurking not too far beneath the “national” psyche.
The provisions of the Second Vatican Council and the subsequent liturgical legislation of the Catholic Church nowhere mandates the kind of “re-ordering” that has gone on in Ireland. Indeed, the present law provides for the celebration of the Mass in historic churches with minimal, or where such is not possible, no change to their historic interiors.
Did it affect Catholic churches in Britain and elsewhere in Europe to the same extent Praxiteles do you know?
I would agree that the “very psychotic compulsions lurking not too far beneath the “national” psyche” Is the main reason. But my point was based that the vatican council actede as catalyst and starteds these reordering. I agree that changes were not required to the extent that they have been. But it is a shame hat some great religous treasures were altered or destoryed due to this.
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