The Park, Carrickmines

i like this one. much better than the other post. not sure it’s high rise though. it’s only 16 storeys

Why does every building proposed here have to be 16 storeys?

I love this line in particular.

“This follows a study by Management Horizons Europe which found there is a “significant undersupply” of high quality, four and five-star hotels in south Dublin compared to other European cities.”

What’s that supposed to mean? i thought there was only one “south Dublin”

‘Highrise’ or not, that scheme looks dire. It looks like your typical placeless landscape plonked down at the side of any motorway anywhere.

Lack of public transport here is irrelevant as the taller element is purely for design purposes rather than density.
On what grounds was this appealed – please don’t say height was the reason. This isn’t next to some delicate georgian masterpiece.
Relative height (relative to other parts of the same development) as a design element should be encouraged. Other wise we are heading for more North Docklands blandness. In the absence of new churces to punctuate the skyline, we need something to excite the eye!!!

The North Dublin Docklands is the exact blandness that this reminds me of. Apart from the one taller tower every other building seems to be of uniform height etc.

barrack like formation….

Boring layout! The high-rise looks nice. Don’t know how well it will age, though.

Oh come on, the whole thing is boring and uninteresting…

It’s a clone of Mayor Street.

Originally posted by Paul Clerkin
Oh come on, the whole thing is boring and uninteresting…

I never said it was exciting, original or interesting. Just nice. Chill out, Paul.

Did they?

12.12: “I do however have some reservations about the bulk of the proposed tower and in particular of its proportions. As stated earlier it has a width of 30m and length of 50m and height of 67.5m -71m. As such even when viewed from the narrow side, it does not have the ¼ width/height ratio which makes a tall building elegant”

Condition:
“The footprint of the proposed tower block shall be reduced by reduction of its width and length by 10m each”

Reason: “in the interest of visual amenity”

I’d go along with this, proportionally, the building is too bulky to adequately distinguish itself from the rest of the scheme – a problem one can see in many similar schemes on the outskirts of Birmingham etc.
I find a tall building necessary for a scheme such as this (not that the one proposed is anything fantastic), but as the report points out:

“The employment zone buildings by necessity are bulky structures, with similar heights (13-17.5m), and are usually surrounded by large expanses of car parks. As a result they usually create rather monotonous and sometimes windswept urban-scapes, inhospitable as pedestrian environments. In this case location of bulk of the car parking underground, provision of pedestrian links and hard and soft landscaped open spaces, help improve the general layout, and the quality of the space”

“The tower building with a height of 67.5-71m and located within a relatively large open space and as a vista at the end of pedestrian routes would in my view provide a much needed relief from the monotony referred to above”

Ah sorry, inspectors rec – pretty obvious graham! 😮
Think it’s something that should have been followed through on though

This caught my attention today

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/rebels-pass-d18-shops-rezone-plan-2136865.html

Rebels pass D18 shops rezone plan
By Maeve Galvin

Wednesday April 14 2010

COUNCILLORS have defied the Environment Minister in moving to rezone a shopping centre development in Carrickmines.

The move to extend the retail development at The Park, which is just off the M50, goes against the Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council’s development plan, which was signed off on last Thursday.

Following a debate at last night’s council meeting, councillors passed the motion to vary the development plan and provide for a district centre by 15 votes to 13.

This flies in the face of Environment Minister John Gormley’s orders last month that directed the council not to rezone the Carrickmines land.

Several councillors spoke out against the move. Labour councillor Richard Humphreys, a barrister, told the chamber that the move “wasn’t a lawful motion”.

He said: “There is a legal obligation to comply with the minister’s regulation.

“In addition this would undermine the Cherrywood development and negatively impact on this council’s interests. I feel that it would be ludicrous and making a mockery of this council for us to pass this.”

Fine Gael’s Tom Joyce, Jim O’Leary, Barry Ward, John Bailey and Maria Bailey, and independent councillor Gearoid O’Keeffe put forward the motion, which aims to extend the retail land in Dublin 18 by 10,000sqm.

It also proposes to reduce the retail land at the Cherrywood development by the same amount.

Proposers of the motion said that they had been approached by developers who want to put in amenities such as a cinema, supermarket, leisure centre and restaurant, which would create 800 jobs.

Councillor Jim O’Leary said that the move was in the interest of creating jobs for the county.

Council management now plans to seek legal advice and report back to the council on the issue.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0413/1224268227522.html

Council votes to rezone land at Carrickmines for retail
FIONA GARTLAND

COUNCILLORS IN south Dublin have voted to begin a variation to rezone land for retail development in Carrickmines despite a ministerial order directing them not to increase retail in the area.

Minister for the Environment John Gormley directed councillors on Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council not to rezone land at The Park, Carrickmines, off the M50, to increase its retail space when they created their county development plan last month.

Councillors complied with the Minister’s direction order, but yesterday, following a heated debate, they voted to effectively overturn it.

Fine Gael councillors Tom Joyce, Jim O’Leary, Barry Ward and John and Maria Bailey, along with Independent councillor Gearóid O’Keeffe, tabled the motion to increase retail zoning at Carrickmines by 10,000 sq m and simultaneously reduce retail zoning at Cherrywood, also off the M50, by 10,000 sq m.

Councillors had come under pressure from developers at both centres.

The Carrickmines developer, Park Developments, had promised 800 jobs and a “guaranteed” anchor tenant, as well as interest from other retailers should the motion be passed.

The Cherrywood developer, Dunloe Ewart, had threatened legal proceedings should the motion be passed. It said it had already spent €28.6 million on infrastructure in Cherrywood.

Speaking in defence of the motion, Cllr Tom Joyce said he had been contacted by a delegation of business people who said they would like to put in a cinema, supermarket, leisure centre and restaurant at The Park.

“These people are ready to start operations immediately,” he said.

He believed the development was sustainable.

Cllr Jim O’Leary questioned why Mr Gormley “interfered” in the county development plan.

Cllr Barry Ward put on the record that he was “beholden to no one”. He was satisfied rezoning Carrickmines was the right thing to do.

However, Labour councillor Aidan Culhane said the motion was “utterly shocking and appalling”. It was a plan to build another shopping centre on the side of a motorway. “I find it staggering that councillors would do this . . . in Carrickmines of all places after all it’s been through in planning terms.”

His Labour colleague, Cllr Denis O’Callaghan, said he detected “a palpable smugness, arrogance and contempt” for the work carried out by the council in the last two years.

Cllr Richard Humphreys said there was a legal obligation to comply with the Minister’s order and increasing retail at Carrickmines would “emasculate” Cherrywood and damage the financial interests of the council, which owns some land at Cherrywood.

Cllr Victor Boyhan said whatever councillors did the Minister would invoke his powers under the legislation and was entitled to do so.

Councillors voted 15 to 13 to accept the motion.

County manager Owen Keegan said he would take legal advice about the decision, and return to councillors with a report on how they could proceed with the steps to vary the development plan.

I don’t know what to make of this situation!

I can’t understand why the council would be looking to change their own development plan, which is only a week old!

What is to be gained by zoning in Carrickmines (Google Map)? Is it not the antithesis of proper sustainable development. The Luas will run near by but the whole area has been designed for the motorcar. There’s a time and a place for retail parks, but I really don’t think Dublin needs any more of them right now!

Considering that in the past year DLR councillors have re-opened Dun Laoghaire main street to cars in a bid to help the struggling businesses there, the fact that they are now looking to zone new out-of-town retailing doesn’t make sense. And it’s not just Dun Laoghaire; Sandyford and Stillorgan are in an awful state commercially as well.

On top of all this, these councillors are trying to push development at Carrickmines at the cost of Cherrywood (Google Map), which apparently is a project that the council itself has an investment in.

I watched a little bit of the debate (video here) and I did not see anybody in favour of the Development Plan contravention speak about the urban design or sustainability merits of the proposal. The attitude seemed to be that we should zone it because there’s a few jobs in it.

I’d love to hear some opinions on this. Particularly on Cherrywood VS Carrickmines.

Can we please re-title this thread to

“Quarryvale Nua, Carrickmines”?

Noting Justice Fergus Flood referred to Carrickmines previously, and prior to this particular controversy as “the epicenter of planning corruption in Ireland”, it appears nothing has been learnt. Good to see the Jackson Way Junction is now providing rise to yet more mess.

It is hard to escape the assessment that the tribunals have purely been a slow-release valve, which by not imposing significant sanction, have done nothing to deter what is at best ill-informed and irresponsible decision making by elected representatives. So lets make sure to name and shame them, again:

Fine Gael councillors:

Barry Ward

Maria Bailey

and of course not to forget:

Independent councillor Gearóid O’Keeffe,

I also note as reported by Fiona Gartland in the Irish Times that, “councillors had drafted the variation themselves without the benefit of legal advice”.

And we wonder why the Blueshirts are no different to the MaFFia?

There is clearly now no significant credible political party in Leinster House who can give leadership in whom we can have faith. Leadership without legitimacy is an oxymoron.

Hutton I completely agree with you.

Just on the behaviour of Fine Gael councillors, I really don’t hold any political allegiances but I’ve recently been noticing some really bad stuff going on.

Here is shocking stuff from one of the pro-Carrickmines zoners above, John Bailey (FG), and his daughter Maria Bailey (FG).

Donations had ‘no bearing’ on planning decision, says FG councillor
http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2010/jan/24/donations-had-no-bearing-on-planning-decision-says/

John Bailey says planning objection ‘went missing’
Mark Hilliard
Janury 24, 2010

(Image added so you’ll know which faces not to vote for at next election!)

A FINE Gael councillor said that thousands of euro in donations from two companies behind a controversial development had no bearing on his failure to object to its go-ahead.

John Bailey told voters he had objected to An Bord Pleanála over the controversial redevelopment of the old Dun Laoghaire Golf Club, but the appeals body later confirmed it had received no such correspondence.

It has since been revealed that Bailey, who sits on Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown Council with his daughter Maria, received financial donations from both the developers in question and its estate agent ahead of his unsuccessful 2007 general election bid.

Bailey said he now accepted his objection had gone missing, but that when contacted by the Sunday Tribune, he re-sent the documents as an observation. The deadline has passed for objections. “These things can happen in the post but it’s most unusual,” he said.

Bailey also enclosed a new submission cheque but said his bank was still looking into whether or not the initial one to An Bord Pleanála had ever been cashed.

Cosgrave Developments and Hooke & McDonald, both of whom are behind the contentious development, gave Bailey donations of €2,500 each ahead of the general election.

However, he denied that this in any way compromised or affected his ability to object to the project.

“I am totally independent and totally impartial. I am there to represent people,” he said. “Everybody has to do fundraising for the elections. I have never shirked from whatever I have had to say. I am not bought or beholden to anybody.”

Bailey was unclear as to whether he had sought the donations directly or whether he had been approached by the companies.

“I can’t tell you off the top of my head but you do whatever you can during elections,” he said.

Bailey circulated leaflets to around 100 constituents, local to the golf course site, stating that he had filed the objection to An Bord Pleanála.

The objections would also have been also flawed in that Bailey made reference to two separate planning applications in the letter, which has been seen by the Sunday Tribune. Such a move is prohibited by An Bord Pleanála rules. “If I did that I made an error,” he previously conceded.

The plans for one of the two developments in question is still with the local authority and so an appeal to An Bord Pleanála was premature.

The development currently before the board relates to 605 residential units on the site off the Glenageary Road Upper and Eglinton Park, Dun Laoghaire. The application, still with the council, refers to a separate but related development at the old bowls club.

I have more examples but I don’t want to get too off topic.

Back to Carrickmines. I have been reading back through other articles over the past month about the rezoning. Here is one where Ciaran Cuffe gives some reasons why zoning Carrickmines is contrary to good planning.

Minister stresses importance of new town before vote on rezoning

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0412/1224268137650.html

FIONA GARTLAND
Monday, April 12, 2010

PROPOSALS TO develop a new town at Cherrywood, south Dublin, are to be brought to Government within weeks, the Minister for Sustainable Transport and Planning has said.

Green Party Minister Ciarán Cuffe said the proposals would ensure proper facilities would be developed side by side with homes and businesses at Cherrywood, a 361-hectare site between the M50 and the N11.

He made his announcement before a controversial rezoning motion comes before Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council today to reduce retail zoning at Cherrywood and increase it at Carrickmines, also off the M50.

If the motion, tabled by six councillors, is passed, it will initiate a variation of the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council Development Plan. It will also countermand an order by Minister for the Environment John Gormley not to increase retail zoning at Carrickmines.

Mr Cuffe said yesterday that developer-led zonings were running the danger of undermining millions of euros in infrastructure investment and the creation of thousands of new jobs over the next decade.

He said the Strategic Development Zone (SDZ), the planning framework that will create the new town at Cherrywood, would provide the bedrock for sustainable economic development and job-creation. It would also allow for fast-tracked planning.

Mr Cuffe said the new town, when fully developed over 10 years, would provide 12,500 homes and 18,000 jobs.

“The proper infrastructure – including a new Luas line with five stops in Cherrywood which will open later this year – has been put in place. It has the potential to create a vibrant, dynamic new town in south Dublin.”

He was concerned the SDZ would be undermined by the Carrickmines motion, on which councillors will vote today.

“I have deep concerns that, because of the employment situation in Ireland at present, councillors and politicians are falling victim to the old claim of jobs being promised as long as a zoning takes place,” he said.

“Trading a zoning for a promise is not good planning and is consistent with past practices of light-touch regulation and pure and simple cronyism that got our country into its present difficulties.”

Councillors have also come under pressure from the developers of both Carrickmines and Cherrywood, who wrote to them on Friday.

The Carrickmines developer, Park Developments, has promised 800 jobs, a “guaranteed” anchor tenant as well as interest from other retailers should the motion be passed.

The Cherrywood developer, Dunloe Ewart, has threatened legal proceedings should the motion be passed. It said it has already spent €28.6 million on infrastructure in Cherrywood.

At this moment, all I can say is thank god we have a Green as Minister for Environment to stop these braindeads from destroying south county Dublin.

Just who are our councillors working in the interests of? I would like to see if any of the councillors listed by Hutton have received donations from Park Developments. As I pointed out, John Bailey has previous in that kind of thing.

Jesus H christ. All this cribbing over 10,000sqm! That is about the size of your average district centre which comprises usually an anchor supermarket such as Dunnes or Tesco along with 10-20 smaller shops such as Chemists, florists, Dry Cleaners etc!!

I can’t believe all the moaning about this considering the substantial ammount of retail warehousing already on site and land zoned for offices and a hotel, which won’t be built now! It makes a bit of sense to locate a supermarket here rather then at another greenfield site. Granted there are alot of issues with this and other land around Carrickmines!

This development is just accross the bridge from Foxrock. There is actually no full line supermarket there. This is perhaps the closest site. Unless you “ecomentalists” would rather people drive gas guzzlers further to shop!

Also, the political egde to some of the posts is sickening. All development is not bad! And don’t make me laugh about your attempts to cannonise Gormley. He has at this stage broken so many promises and principles that he really is sinking lower then his FF bedfellows…..and previously I thought that would be impossible!

thebig C, how can I put it this politely, given your “ecomentalists” reference – oh just fuck off.

It makes a bit of sense to locate a supermarket here rather then at another greenfield site

And why does it naturally have to be another greenfield site? Why can there not be urban renewal instead? Because one thing is for sure, if this cheap shite goes ahead, it makes urban renewal less economically viable.

66 shops have closed in Dun Laoghaire over the last two years – as reported in today’s Sunday Tribune

thebig C, you are talking out your backside. While you may once have had a future as some poncey pen-pusher working for a local authority where the local gombeen greedy county manager wanted to chase a development levy – and so drop planning standards in the process – the days of your type are finished. Get over it. You are a disgrace and affront to civic society. Go figure.

Anyhow rant over, I notice that 2 of the FG councillors voted against, including the former PD Mary Mitchell O’Connor, as interestingly so too did another former PD, the environmentally progressive Independent Victor Boyhan

Yet also of note, all of the four MaFFia councillors voted for this scheme – so why does John Gormley and his GP mates not lay into them as well? But then perhaps raising this with their government partners might be as popular as a game of pass-the-parcel in a Belfast pub. Of course the GP are hypocrites to not do so, but nothing new there. The Dun Laoghaire maFFia are getting far too easy a ride, running contrary to supposed central government policy of which their party is the main partner. This in actual fact just underlines my earlier point that there is clearly now no significant credible political party in Leinster House who can give leadership in whom we can have faith.

Finally independent maFFia councillor Tony Fox also voted for the Quarryvale Nua; dear old Tony used to be a full maFFia member, but you see ’tis a bit awkward with all that Tribunal malarky…. Ah sure Leopardstown racecourse can also be accessed from the Jackson Way Junction, which surprisingly might have been an accidentally good bit of planning – just in case anyone’s ever in a rush to explain where they suddenly came into a bit of cash. Yes the symmetry is perfect – the Jackson Way Junction and the racecourse; perhaps Bertie might someday give his mates an ‘ol digout and cut a ribbon here to commemorate the pinnacle planning achievement done under his leadership 🙂

If you need some groceries in Foxrock, you just send the au pair up to Thomas’s to pick up some organic champagne or truffle oil. http://www.thomasoffoxrock.ie/index.html There is a pharmacy, dry cleaners, restaurant, boutique, wine bar etc in the village.

If you are a pleb living in postal Foxrock and you need some baked beans or poptarts, your house is likely located beside Dunnes Stores in Cornelscourt where your every lumpen need may be catered for 24/7.

However, if you are a speculator, who owns a landbank off Glenamuck Road and you want an excuse to get your fields rezoned for housing, then you will want to make friends with a few of the local councillors so that they can zone you up a bunch of retail in a field outside Carrickmines.

John Bailey is a very decent man with a life devoted to honesty and integrity and you can read his various saintly exploits here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bailey_(Irish_politician)

FF removes ‘bribes’ councillor from ticket

Conor McMorrow

A Dublin councillor who was named in court as a beneficiary of bribes from former government press secretary Frank Dunlop will not be running for Fianna Fáil in next month’s local elections.

Tony Fox has been taken off the party ticket in the Dundrum ward for Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council by strategists in party headquarters.

It is widely believed that Fox would have been re-elected as he has a strong reputation as a dedicated worker in the area. This is despite being named in court proceedings last November when Dunlop app eared at Dublin District court to face corruption charges.

A Fianna Fáil spokeswoman said: “Tony Fox hasn’t been selected to represent the party on this occasion.” The names on the party ticket in Dundrum are Councillor Trevor Matthews, Tony Kelly and Aoife Brennan, daughter of the late Séamus.

Brennan (30) is set to follow her father’s footsteps into politics with her bid to get elected to Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council where she already works in a customer relations role.

Fox was not available for comment on his political future when contacted by the Sunday Tribune.

Dunlop has pleaded guilty to the charges of making corrupt payments to a number of members of Dublin City Council and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown county council between 1992 and 1997.

A CAB detective told Judge Cormac Dunne during an initial hearing last November that Dunlop had told gardaí on the day he was charged: “We always knew this day was coming and I will not be contesting the charges.”

Fox was named in five of the 16 charges along with Seán Gilbride, Jack Larkin, Cyril Gallagher, Tom Hand, Don Lydon, Colm McGrath, and Liam Cosgrave.

Dunlop’s sentencing hearing is expected to take place on 18 May, ahead of the local elections on 5 June.

May 3, 2009

Hutton, perhaps the “ecomentalist” tag was undeserved in your case. However, I do feel it actually applies to certain elements who are definately against any form of development. The current economic decline just plays into their hands and raises more excuses for objecting to any form of development.

I agree with you that many aspects of planning in Ireland stink to high heaven. I just don’t think this is one of them. Its perhaps natural, but regretable, that after the shenanigans of the past any Councillors involved in rezoning are now smeared.

In my opinion, whilst over development and corruption are obviously bad. The kind of extremist anti-rezoning, anti-highrise anti-everything policies that alot of Councilors have made a career of can be just as damaging!

The big push is to establish a retail/town core at Cherrywood, once the Luas is completed. However, given Liam Carrols financial situation, potential litigation regarding the site, question marks over Government ownership and the recession, nothing will be built there for a long time. In fact, despite Gormley pontificating about Cherrywood being appropriate as the designated growth centre, attempts in recent years to begin to develop this area in line with increased public transport have actually been stymed by none other then the Green Party and An Taisce. Both of whom strenuously objected to office developments on the grounds of height!! And were successful.

My point was. At 10,000sq/m its a very small development in a Dublin context. We are not talking about a potential Liffey Valley or Dundrum. If The Park ( such an imaginative name) is already a destination for certain types of retailing, why not also include a supermarket as an option. That will actually save in terms of car journeys.

Lastly, I am not a planning official. Nor am I employed in the property industry or a developer. Heaven forbid:)

C

@Frank Taylor wrote:

If you need some groceries in Foxrock, you just send the au pair up to Thomas’s to pick up some organic champagne or truffle oil. http://www.thomasoffoxrock.ie/index.html

Ah yes – the liver paté I recommend, and they do a damn good chocolate cake also; certainly beats the political fudge one is used to elsewhere in this borough 🙂

@Frank Taylor wrote:

John Bailey is a very decent man with a life devoted to honesty and integrity and you can read his various saintly exploits here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bailey_(Irish_politician)

Oooh lovely. There’s the “Fake endorsement letter incident” – which his running mate Eugene Regan described as “totally dishonest”… then there’s the “missing golf club planning objection”, and there’s even an internal blueshirt row that ended in a high court row regarding a legal action over candidate selection. And that’s before one looks at his other activities outside politics, in the world of , er, sport:

Bailey tabled a motion of no confidence in Dublin manager Tommy Carr in February 2001. His motion failed, yet his public statements during the following months strongly supported Carr’s position as manager – even to the point of denying that the no confidence motion had ever taken place. On October 1 2001, Carr was removed as manager during a club meeting where the vote was tied and required Bailey’s casting vote as chairman. Carr then confirmed that Bailey had been trying to remove him for the previous 8 months while publicly supporting him. The Dublin Senior Football Team stated they felt
“obliged to respond publicly in a bid to reverse the move, and highlight the lack of integrity involved in the due process…Honesty is demanded from anyone who wears the Dublin jersey. We expect it from our selectors and from our manager. Should we not, at least, expect honesty from our officials?”

Don’t we have such lovely fellows as our elected bureaucrats 🙂

@Frank Taylor wrote:

you just send the au pair up to Thomas’s

Tut, tut, tut. Frank, for sake of clarity – it’s the recession, even the good burghers of Foxrock can no longer afford the Au Pair; it’s just the Au One that they have to get by with these days – this is the Foxrock definition of a recession :p

The sad thing is that Bailey has spent huge amounts over the past decade promoting himself and is now likely to be elected to the next Dáil on a FG upswing. Maybe he’ll be the next planning minister.

@thebig C wrote:

Hutton, perhaps the “ecomentalist” tag was undeserved in your case. However, I do feel it actually applies to certain elements who are definately against any form of development. The current economic decline just plays into their hands and raises more excuses for objecting to any form of development.

I agree with you that many aspects of planning in Ireland stink to high heaven. I just don’t think this is one of them. Its perhaps natural, but regretable, that after the shenanigans of the past any Councillors involved in rezoning are now smeared.

In my opinion, whilst over development and corruption are obviously bad. The kind of extremist anti-rezoning, anti-highrise anti-everything policies that alot of Councilors have made a career of can be just as damaging!

The big push is to establish a retail/town core at Cherrywood, once the Luas is completed. However, given Liam Carrols financial situation, potential litigation regarding the site, question marks over Government ownership and the recession, nothing will be built there for a long time. In fact, despite Gormley pontificating about Cherrywood being appropriate as the designated growth centre, attempts in recent years to begin to develop this area in line with increased public transport have actually been stymed by none other then the Green Party and An Taisce. Both of whom strenuously objected to office developments on the grounds of height!! And were successful.

My point was. At 10,000sq/m its a very small development in a Dublin context. We are not talking about a potential Liffey Valley or Dundrum. If The Park ( such an imaginative name) is already a destination for certain types of retailing, why not also include a supermarket as an option. That will actually save in terms of car journeys.

Lastly, I am not a planning official. Nor am I employed in the property industry or a developer. Heaven forbid:)

C

thebig C, I appreciate your retraction re “ecomentalists”. However I must dispute much of your core analysis. The current situation isn’t simply a recession in the old way we might have known it 20 years ago – there simply is not and can never be a return to the gross speculative bubble during the last decade for which we are all paying for now. That wasn’t an economic cycle, it was madness, a fraud on a grand scale masking a future theft – the results of which are best currently seen by the closure of swimming pools and other facilities in working class areas of Dublin city.

The current economic decline just plays into their hands and raises more excuses for objecting to any form of development.

Actually I don’t believe this on two counts; firstly it is not simply “current” by my reasoning above; we need a better stick to measure the progress of society by than crude GDP, and the the UN has a number of them – such as HDI, the Human Development Index. Secondly, the recession actually provides a new justification by way of promising “jaaaaaaahhhhbbs”, i.e. supposed jobs – a cruel, hollow, cherry that in reality masks the actual decline of further loss of jobs that will occur by way of sucking indigenous Irish retail commerce away from existing town centres such as Dun Laoghaire, and instead the british Tesco, who predominantly pay taxes elsewhere, have already said they want to set up at Quarryvale Nua. At this stage I suspect that if the developer, Michael Cotter, was to suggest that he could create jaaaaahhhbs by way of opening a concentration camp – perhaps a US style Guantanamo franchise – he could get the backing of some councillors.

Regarding Cherrywood, it is actually not Liam Carroll but primarily Noel Smyth – who has already threatened legal action if the Quarryvale Nua proceeds and eats his lunch. It’s not that I give a damn about him, I don’t, and actually I believe this whole row is utterly farcical because in any event, you are right thebig C, nothing of significance is going to get built. Not that that’s going to stop existing land owners from moving to protect the mythical speculation value on existing plans, whether or not they go in to NAMA.

The icing on the cake for me in all of this mess is the way the Luas has been perverted so as to no longer follow the former Harcourt Street railway bed, but instead, end up in the middle of nowhere, west of Bray and not connected to the main Dart line. Oh well at least Two Cars Cuffe and his GP mates are happy, with a toy that has less than half the capacity of Dart on a line that is already over capacity further down. Idiots 😡

@Frank Taylor wrote:

The sad thing is that Bailey has spent huge amounts over the past decade promoting himself and is now likely to be elected to the next Dáil on a FG upswing. Maybe he’ll be the next planning minister.

Imo, Ombudmans report stating Leinster House can no longer hold Cabinet to account + financial treachery of NAMA = broken formula.

No difference between maFFia and blueshirts. Political perspective that is begotten in the grave of a shared bankrupt ideology that has, and continues to fail the citizens of what should be a republic. A false dichotomy.

Still if the rot continues, and in my opinion it is now far worse in the absence of penalty, wouldn’t it nonetheless be appropriate, yet another symmetry; we could have a Bailey as planning minister while the Bailey brothers continue to turn up at the Planning Tribunal… and our children’s bare feet and hungry stomachs will be such a collective civic badge of respect to be able to acknowledge such men of importance. Bastards.

@Frank Taylor wrote:

The sad thing is that Bailey has spent huge amounts over the past decade promoting himself and is now likely to be elected to the next Dáil on a FG upswing. Maybe he’ll be the next planning minister.

nah. can’t see that happening. He already had a shambolic tilt at Leinster House in 2002. Anyway this is more politics.ie than archiseek !!!!

Thebig C, if you were referring to me when talking about people who are against new development and highrise then I just want to let you know that nothing could be further from the truth.

Carrickmines is an awful development that no one would want to live beside or walk around. Sticking extra retail out there, to compete with the already struggling retailers in our local villages makes zero sense.

I would much rather see Cherrywood developed as an SDZ. Would it not be better to create a high density neighbourhood for 30,000 people or more, with the shops within walking distance. FG and FF are trying to take the shops of this potential neighbourhood, and stick them over in Carrickmines instead.

For what reason? A few jobs. Penny wise and pound poor.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0422/1224268876105.html

Proposed district centre at Carrickmines, by Henry J Lyons Architects

Dublin site plan more complex than crony capitalism

FRANK McDONALD

Plans for two competing shopping centres in the south of the county are at the heart of a dispute between councillors and the Minister

IT HAS been described by Ciarán Cuffe, the new Minister of State in charge of planning, as an example of “crony capitalism” and a reversion to the highly-questionable rezoning practices of the 1980s.

But the determination of a majority of councillors in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown to upgrade a site in Carrickmines – owned by Michael Cotter’s Park Developments – from neighbourhood to district centre status is a more complex story about where new shopping facilities should be located.

The Park in Carrickmines is a large housing scheme developed over several years, which already has a “retail park” with the usual range of outlets, but no supermarket to serve the estimated 18,000 people living in the catchment area, which includes Ballyogan, Glenamuck, Kilternan and Stepaside.

Park Developments got an uncontested planning permission in 2008 to develop a neighbourhood centre at The Park, consisting of a supermarket and a small number of ancillary retail outlets as well as almost 300 apartments. It also has approval for a major office scheme, of which two block are already built.

In 2008, after Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council published its latest draft development plan, Park Developments and Tesco made submissions requesting that the neighbourhood centre should be upgraded to district centre status, given that the planned population of its catchment is put at 35,000.

The initial response from the planners – in an August 2008 report to the council by county manager Owen Keegan – was quite open. They recommended that the council should “reassess possible reclassification within the retail hierarchy of Cherrywood, Sandyford Business Estate and Carrickmines”.

Later, however, the planners recommended that no change be made to the existing neighbourhood centre zoning at The Park. Their rationale was that, if it was reclassified as a district centre, it would take business away from the proposed district centre at Cherrywood, where the council itself has an interest.

The “new town” planned for Cherrywood is embryonic at this stage. Like Carrickmines, it has a projected population of 35,000. But unlike Carrickmines, there are very few people living there so far. The biggest landowner is Dunloe Ewart, which is controlled by Liam Carroll, the now debt-laden property developer.

Last July, Mr Keegan said in a High Court affidavit that the county council was very concerned that the €57 million it had put into a 1997 joint venture agreement with Mr Carroll’s companies to develop the Cherrywood lands for a science and technology park was “in jeopardy” because of their insolvency.

“One would assume from those publicly expressed concerns that the reality is that the council knows full well that there is absolutely no possibility of any significant development of any kind happening out in Cherrywood for a very long time,” said Tim Crowley, project director for Park Developments.

Noting that Cherrywood had been designated as a strategic development zone (SDZ), he forecasted that it could be up to eight years before this planning process would be completed – as had happened in Adamstown, near Lucan.

It was thus a long-term project compared to The Park in Carrickmines.

But Mr Cuffe strongly defended Cherrywood, saying a huge public investment had already gone into providing infrastructure there, including a new terminus for the Sandyford Luas line. “Now is the time to make it happen, not to threaten its viability with another shopping centre a mile down the road.”

To him, the site in Carrickmines “bears an uncanny resemblance to Liffey Valley in terms of its location at the edge of where people are living, rather than in the heart of a community”. By contrast, the proposed Cherrywood district centre was “very well-placed in terms of its future population”, he said.

A spokesman for Minister for the Environment John Gormley, who directed Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown councillors to reverse their rezoning decision on Carrickmines, speculated that the development of Cherrywood would be “top of the list for development” when it falls into the hands of Nama.

Planning consultant John Spain, who advises Park Developments, said “there was a concern [in the Department of the Environment] that councillors were acting against the manager’s advice.

“But the planning rationale for ministerial intervention is not there, because this is not an ‘out-of-town’ shopping centre.”

Tesco obviously sees the value of having a large supermarket at The Park, given its location in a relatively affluent catchment area.

Under the deal it has signed with Park Developments, the British-owned multiple would contribute €70 million to the construction costs in return for becoming the anchor store.

Mr Crowley said that the proposed centre had been “consistently supported” by Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Independent councillors on the basis that it was “entirely sustainable in planning terms” and that schemes of this kind “in the midst of large areas of new housing” were in line with the Greater Dublin Area retail strategy.

He noted that councillors from both the Green Party and the Labour had, in contrast, voted against the inclusion of a district centre at Cherrywood in the 2004 Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Development Plan and had also previously voted against the Dundrum Town Centre, which opened in 2005.

In terms of public transport access, The Park at Carrickmines would be served by the Ballyogan Woods stop on the extended Sandyford Luas line, which would be located some 200 metres from the proposed district centre. Cherrywood would be better served by Luas, with a stop directly in front of its proposed centre.

To avoid a further confrontation with Mr Gormley, the councillors who support the Carrickmines rezoning have proposed capping the size of the proposed centre at 20,000sq metres (215,280sq ft), rather than the 25,000sq metres (269,100sq ft) originally proposed.

It remains to be seen whether this will satisfy the Minister.

Just a quick reply….I think Frank MacDonalds article is a fairly fair and balanced sumation of the situation.

Sorry I haven’t replied for a few days. I lost my interweb connection, and Eircom and BT both blamed eachother as to the cause. Southpark is really so perceptive…it actually did feel like the outside world being closed!!:))

Anywho, I will respond to Hutton and Damcw later on:)

C

The nub of this is that if Tesco go to Carrickmines and Dunnes have Cornelscourt then who will anchor Cherrywood? There are only two major supermarkets in Ireland given that M & S don’t do full format and Superquinn have gone down the Waitrose route of 10,000 – 15,000 sq foot stores. Aldi or another discounter for Cherrywood clearly doesn’t add up. Clearly those supporting Cherrywood need to outline what their timetable to building a scheme is as it appears there is a clear need for supermarket space. You have got to admire Cotter’s deal making skills to get a viable retail scheme to this stage albeit that it may fall victim to that tiger era risk called planning risk.

@PVC King wrote:

The nub of this is that if Tesco go to Carrickmines and Dunnes have Cornelscourt then who will anchor Cherrywood? There are only two major supermarkets in Ireland given that M & S don’t do full format and Superquinn have gone down the Waitrose route of 10,000 – 15,000 sq foot stores. Aldi or another discounter for Cherrywood clearly doesn’t add up. Clearly those supporting Cherrywood need to outline what their timetable to building a scheme is as it appears there is a clear need for supermarket space. You have got to admire Cotter’s deal making skills to get a viable retail scheme to this stage albeit that it may fall victim to that tiger era risk called planning risk.

Bang on the money. The obvious compromise is a German discounter with an M&S simply food or small format Superquinn/Fresh/Mortons/Nolans for Carrickmines which would be a souped up neighbourhood centre justifiable for the catchment and demographic.

Especially if ASDA /Walmart enter the Irish market it would in all likelihood be a buyout of the larger Dunnes outlets in the RoI, thereby leaving Tesco with a free run at Cherywood.

There is already a Dunnes anchored shopping centre on the other side of Ballyogan Road (less than half mile from the Park, Carrickmines.
http://www.leopardstownsc.ie/list-of-shops.php

The purpose of new retail zoning is simply to justify new residential zoning.

DLRCC is an unmitigated disaster.

Their latest bit of BS is a very academic decision, little or nothing will happen. Several of the units in the Park are empty; furniture & electrical retailers are in administration or closed/liquidated. It is a disjointed place with two centres, one based on Woodies, the other with Harvey bloody Norman and TJMax. Extra-wide boring shopfronts, unbroken blandness. Nobody in their right mind would move there, the footfall is too low and totally car based. There were rumours that the Park was hoping to develop a motor center, but then the motor trade tanked and Sandyford was too established.

I cannot see Superquinn going to the Park, they have enough problems as it is. Dunnes is now stopping the 24 hour opening at C.Court, Lidl have shops at Pottery Road and in Deansgrange, so that leaves Aldi (believed to be less successful than Lidl) and they have nothing in the area.

DunLaoghaire has been a disaster since the 1970’s. The ITGWU members would not cooperate on late opening, so Cornellscourt took off. Those workers in Lees, Cassidys, McCullaghs, Findlaters, Liptons/Williams saw their jobs disappear. The demolition of the Adelphi cinema left a hole in the town, cutting it in half for a couple of decades, then that was filled by crap offices (3M in particular). The linear layout, with a row of houses on one side makes the place shopper unfriendly and its semi-pedestrianization is a nonsense.

There is a high business closure rate in Dun Laoghaire for several reasons – e.g. huge rates, crap parking & a surfeit of hyper-vigilant wardens, a drug treatment centre off the main street, so the skangers move between there and the main street junk food kips. Landlords are desperate for any tenant so cheapo shops abound. Dunnes owns a huge block in the centre of the town and are (were?) going to develop – all units were/are leased on short leases so the place looks crap.

rant over
K.

What is it about seaside towns and the lack of sustainable rengeneration; this is not just an Irish concept but all but the uber-fshionable former port towns have seriously lagged over the past 15 years; I would add that the Royal Marine is also part of the problem when it should have been a massive asset to the town given its views and history. The key issue for Dun Laoghaire is that until Dundrum came along it was the largest retail provision in the county; recent research in the UK indicates that many retailers would be a lot more profitable trading only the top 30-50 retail locations in the UK (by footfall) versus the 200 shops most have in their portfolios; taking that on an Irish scale and Dun Laoghaire simply will never get over the opening of Dundrum unless they find a coherent niche market.

Frank what size is the Dunnes in Ballyogan? would it be more 2,000 sq m or 6,000 sq m; the rest of the scheme looks very much neighbourhood provision?

Sort of supports my point actually.

I would add that the Royal Marine is also part of the problem when it should have been a massive asset to the town given its views and history.

The Royal Marine does not have views from its general public areas, and was very tired until its recent makeover. Also is set back too far from the seafront. A roof-top bar might have helped, but even that did not help the Forty Foot, and Purple or whatever it was called on the HS Pier also closed.

The key issue for Dun Laoghaire is that until Dundrum came along it was the largest retail provision in the county;

The first nail was Cornelscourt, the next was Stillorgan. The “new” Dundrum SC is one of the final ones. The old (Marine Rd) shopping centre is tired even with its renovation job, and has a declining number of crap tenants – even Tesco has dumbed down its product range in that shop. The key to understanding the reason DL is crap is the socio-economic status of the average shopper and browser.

recent research in the UK indicates that many retailers would be a lot more profitable trading only the top 30-50 retail locations in the UK (by footfall) versus the 200 shops most have in their portfolios;

Reminds me of the story about Ford, who were having a think-in about their loss-making factories and an old-timer suggested that they stop making cars to cut losses. Most of the shops on Madison Av are just adverts, their rent is part of a marketing budget, ‘cos it’s putting product in front of people.Got to keep the brand out there, product placement/awareness and all that.

Dun Laoghaire simply will never get over the opening of Dundrum unless they find a coherent niche market.

Agree fully. However, it has found its niche,but I doubt that will work. I’ve never seen so many charity shops in one street!
K.

Charity shops are cyclical; they won’t last once the market picks up; but the challenges are tougher for local authorities as there is a huge structural change in retail beyond the economic cycle this time; the only retail fad expanding at the moment appears to be chocolate shops which are trying to replace a long list of contracting uses not least of which include banks, card shops, mobile phone shops. I would hate to see Dun Laoghaire as a budget retail location;

Depressing website time!!! http://www.chavtowns.co.uk/

You would like to see the council encouraging an outbreak of pop up shops in conjunction with NCAD and the local art college.

Hey all

Firstly, in relation to comments I made regarding people who are against any form of development, I wasn’t refering to any posters archiseek:)) But, I do feel that such people do exist.

Secondly, I would broadly agree with the need for a properly planned community sited at Cherrywood. However, that aint going to happen any time soon. And if we are to judge by history, any such development won’t have the necessary facilities but social and commercial for years to come. I am speaking as somebody who grew up in Tallaght. This was supposed to be one of the 3 “New towns” in the 1960s. Yet only in the 2000s did it aquire anything like the amenities of a town.

Therfore, allowing the development of a small “interim” centre at The Park would not be a bad idea. And, as has been pointed out, the immediate area is fairly well served by public transport.

Strangley, I had consistantly heard that Superquinn was linked to a potential development at Carrickmines. Indeed, they were previously linked to Leopardstown SC where Dunnes are now. I thought that Park Developments were part of the Consortium that bought Superquinn, but maybe I am mistaken?

I would also like to echo what other posters are saying about Dun Laoghaire. I have always found the Main St to be very drab. There are suprisingly few nice restaurants there and even fewer shops. That just leaves the countless fast food outlets and the hideous shopping centre. Speaking of which, I have heard that an impressive range of Victorian buildings were demolished to make way for this development. Pearson makes refence to in in his book “Between the Mountains and Sea” but I don’t thin there is a picture.

Furthermore, the failure to redevelop/improve the Harbour area during the boom when money was readily available will be regarded as a missed opportuinity. But I don’t want to open that can of worms!! I don’t think you can cast the failure of Dun Laoghaire as a town centre as an indigenous Irish vs International retailer issue. Its simply that a rot has set in for a long time.

C

Dunnes in Leopardstown/Ballyogan is around 5400 sqm. built in 2006

I don’t think Dun Laoghaire is half as bad as you’re making out. Many things have improved.

• For decades the pavilion lay derelict – now it’s fancy apartments and a theatre and a row of restaurants/cafes facing the sea, with a new small park due to appear over a covered in railway and the statue of two bits of phallic rust consigned to the bin.
• The pier is improved with better paving and rails and a restored victorian canopy shelter and bandstand
• The Marina is tidier than the arrangement before and must generate some local business.
• The national yacht club has been restored and the interior has been done well for the first time in years
• The new shopping centre is very anonymous but at least well hidden unlike the monstrous poo-coloured industrial box from the 70s that badly needs nuking.
• The town hall is beautifully looked after, the extension is not too bad, the new adjacent apartment buildings and offices are well finished.
• The Royal Marine Hotel is way better outside and in since they knocked the horrid extension and replaced it with something far less offensive.
• The original carlisle pier ironwork should have been been retained but it’s a relief to see the harbour vista reopened and the rotten modern sheath removed.
• There are lots of quirky characteristic bits in Dun Laoghaire like the Victoria monument and the obelisk balanced on balls.
• 40ft seems to have failed a few times now. People don’t like going upstairs to a pub and I think it may need a change of use to succeed.
• The seafront walk form the harbour to Sandycove is much improved and has a nice community atmosphere in the evenings.
• There is some very good housing stock close to the town centre along places like Mulgrave Street, Clarinda Park, Crosthwaite Park, Northumberland Ave, Tivoli Terrace
• A few nice building such as the Commissioners of Irish Lights eco building on Harbour Road
  

The people’s park is in good shape. Sandycove and Monkstown are distinctive more upmarket neighbours in easy reach.

Dun Laoghaire is well connected to the city by rail and bus and has a large, up-market catchment area. I see it as a great location for offices – staff like working there – and I’d expect to see some of the retail converted back to office use.

I think the threat from Dundrum is far overstated.

Interesting slant.
However, we are talking about retailing, not offices/residential.

While some things have improved, it has taken an age and some were improved sooo long ago that it is not appropriate to mention them in today’s context or with an influence on retailing..

For decades the pavilion lay derelict – now it’s fancy apartments and a theatre and a row of restaurants/cafes facing the sea, with a new small park due to appear over a covered in railway and the statue of two bits of phallic rust consigned to the bin.

It was completed years ago. The Marine road side is dead below the Royal Marine entrance – even the book shop is in administration, possibly because it has a gym, theatre entrance and a semi-basement ships chandlers. Closing the PO killed a huge footfall – were it still there the traffic generation would be much higher and connect Georges St with seafront retail.

The pier is improved with better paving and rails and a restored victorian canopy shelter and bandstand

Yes, East Pier was improved – by Harbour Co, not DLRCC – but the Chinese granite cobbles are now patched with tarmac. The Victoriana is semi-repaired, as the shelter is still railed off. The Battery is closed, even in summer.

The Marina is tidier than the arrangement before and must generate some local business.

The moorings where the now stands were owned by the George & Irish. They were strings, so were neat & tidy. Very little business generated by marina traffic, very few foreign boats visit the E coast. Also it’s far simpler to bring your booze/picnic with you from home. Apart from the Thursday night/Saturday crowd, there is little movement – many boats are celtic tiger status symbols that rarely leave their berths – look at the weed growing on them. Some owners would not even know if their boat was still there or even afloat.

The national yacht club has been restored and the interior has been done well for the first time in years

Its exterior and the RSGYC have always looked good. Haven’t been in the NYC for yonks, but it is a private club so not relevant. I like the extension on the George, not pastiche and not in your face.

The new shopping centre is very anonymous but at least well hidden unlike the monstrous poo-coloured industrial box from the 70s that badly needs nuking.

Agreed

The town hall is beautifully looked after, the extension is not too bad, the new adjacent apartment buildings and offices are well finished.

Agreed, but to many it is a drab building and it does nothing for retail.

The Royal Marine Hotel is way better outside and in since they knocked the horrid extension and replaced it with something far less offensive.

Haven’t noticed it so it must be an improvement

The original carlisle pier ironwork should have been been retained but it’s a relief to see the harbour vista reopened and the rotten modern sheath removed.

The ironwork was a few cast iron pillars / roof supports; the removal of the asbestos shed is a huge improvement. How long more will it be a building site?

There are lots of quirky characteristic bits in Dun Laoghaire like the Victoria monument and the obelisk balanced on balls.

Agreed. Some lovely Victorian/Edwardian buildings on side streets. Must look at those balls again, the IRA reduced them to three and the corpo had a block of wood there for decades.

40ft seems to have failed a few times now. People don’t like going upstairs to a pub and I think it may need a change of use to succeed.

People don’t like going upstairs, ‘cept to bed. That’s why we have such a high level of obesity.

The seafront walk form the harbour to Sandycove is much improved and has a nice community atmosphere in the evenings.

Really?? nothing has changed here for decades. You must have had your eyes shut walking past the Baths. The old metal bars on the seafront wall have almost rusted through, there is graffiti on the breakwater rocks, the path/walk on the seaward side is broken in several places and the park between the baths and the Pier is a litter-strewn, grafittied, pigeon-infested tip.

There is some very good housing stock close to the town centre along places like Mulgrave Street, Clarinda Park, Crosthwaite Park, Northumberland Ave, Tivoli Terrace

Agreed, if you exclude the pre-66 conversions and acres of shitty cheapo windows. but what has that to do with retail?

A few nice building such as the Commissioners of Irish Lights eco building on Harbour Road

The CIL building is very nice – I commented on it on this site before and was surprised that nobody made any subsequent comment.

The people’s park is in good shape. Sandycove and Monkstown are distinctive more upmarket neighbours in easy reach.

Agreed, the Park is well maintained, if not a bit gaudy, has a nice Farmer’s market. Glasthule has successfully re-engineered itself as “Sandycove” (sounds much nicer) with some twee shops but will there be a market for free-range organic carrots next year?

Dun Laoghaire is well connected to the city by rail and bus and has a large, up-market catchment area. I see it as a great location for offices – staff like working there – and I’d expect to see some of the retail converted back to office use.

All that will do is create more Spars / Centras. Already M&S does most of its business at lunchtime for the sandwich brigade.

I think the threat from Dundrum is far overstated.

Dundrum is doing the business, although I would expect a few closures due to the R word and disposable income. Dun Laoghaire is not, and has a history of decline. It did not move with the times to keep up with Cornellscourt c 1970, unions prohibited late opening, and the town started its decline. Then Stillorgan shopping centre opened, was seen as “nicer” (read “less common”) and DL took another hit. The tourist trade declined – working-class Brits went to Ibiza instead of taking the ferry to DL and staying in a kippy B&B. DL will not be able to claw its way back – it is just a strip-mall broken by office developments, and retail will decline further as more units are converted to retail.

DLRCC is a disaster, a morass of lethargy and BS. Take for example the Parks or Roads Depts.
Killiney & Dalkey hill parks are scruffy, weed-infested, dog-pooed dumps. Yes, put up a few swings, whatever, but ignore the fabric of the place. Roads – Vico Road has been closed to traffic since early January. Now, in any town would its most scenic road be closed with NOTHING being done for four months? Look at the new filter lane at the junction of Rochestown Av and Johnstown road. Has anyone ever seen a filterlane narrow down to the width of a cycle lane?
Must brig a camera next time I go up there.
K

Hey Frank

You made some good points there! I thought the “poo” reference to the shopping centre was a highpoint:)

BTW, is it true that the Victoria Memorial was demolished/vandalised as part of a H block protest in the early 1980s?

@thebig C wrote:

BTW, is it true that the Victoria Memorial was demolished/vandalised as part of a H block protest in the early 1980s?

Not sure if it was a H-Block protest, it certainly was done by the shinners of the day and its renovation and restoration was done on the basis that it would not be “revandalized. Also heard that a certain amount of “consultation” took place before it was put back.
K.

Thanks for the above info K:)

Back to The Park, does anybody have a final render of the unbuilt hotel? I ask because the planning inspectors report criticised its height/width ratio, wereas the image shown in most of the media reports shows a slender circular structure?!

C

um yes I seem to have wandered off topic from retail provision in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown to ‘Is Dun Laoghaire a declining kip or not?’. In short you get a shrinking of retail demand after a boom and some premises will be returned to office/residential.There is more to the measure of a town than its retail floor area.

I missed this until now!

Irish Times Monday, May 17, 2010

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0517/breaking61.html

Carrickmines designation case in court

MARY CAROLAN

A direction by Minister for the Environment John Gormley overturning the designation of The Park Village lands in Carrickmines as a “district centre” will cost 1,500 jobs if it is not quashed, a developer has claimed before the Commercial Court.

Tristor Ltd, which wants to develop the Park Village as a district centre, is seeking leave to challenge the Minister’s decision in judicial review proceedings before the Commercial Court. Tristor claims the failure to designate the lands as sought will cost some 700 jobs in construction of the scheme and another 800 jobs in the completed scheme.

The proceedings were transferred to that court’s list today by Mr Justice Peter Kelly who directed that the leave application be heard with the full judicial review proceedings in a telescoped hearing on July 27th.

Tristor, with registered offices at the Herbert Building, The Park, Carrickmines, has brought the action against the Minister, Dún Laoghaire Rathdown County Council, Ireland and the Attorney General.

It wants an order overturning the Minister’s direction, issued to the Council on March 9th 2010, to delete the Council’s earlier decision designating and zoning the Park lands at Carrickmines as a district centre in the council’s draft development plan 2010-2016.

The Minister instructed the council to delete the “village centre” designation and to revert to the previous zoning objective of the Dún Laoghaire Co Development Plan 2004-2010 – a “neighbourhood centre” development at Carrickmines to provide for economic development and employment.

A neighbourhoood centre designation allows for a considerably lower level of retail floorspace than a district centre and involves a development of small groups of small shops of a local nature serving a small, localised catchment population.

Tristor owns some 3.14 hectares of lands at The Park Village, and those lands make up the majority of the designated lands with a lettable retail space of some 25,000 square metres. It secured planning permisison in April 2008 from the council for a mixed-use development on those lands of some 88,790 square metres of mixed, retail, office, leisure and residential uses.

It secured that permission around the same time as the council began its review of the earlier development plan. Tristor claims its planning permission cannot be implemented until the dispute over the Minister’s decision is resolved. It claims some 1,500 jobs are threatened and, while a major retail anchor tenant is already committed to its proposed village development, other potential tenants are refusing to commit because of the uncertainty.