The Opera Centre
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gunter:
Can’t say I’m a big fan of any infill in Limerick, but I’d certainly probably put that example ahead of other contenders, such as the hideous spectacle opposite the former Co. Co. offices further up the street.
It will probably look reasonable in another ten years too, which is saying more for it than many other new developments. The warm tan/cream colour seems to work far better than white in terms of simulataneously making things a bit less gloomy on a typical Limerick rainy day, but unlike the white, it’s not quite as much begging to become a billboard to show up the grime.
Also rather good the way it keeps (or restores) the line at the top of the buildings between its two neighbours which are shorter than the adjoining terrace.
However, the random “boxes” for windows is not aesthetically pleasing enough for my liking, and fairly bland too despite the random element. It’s not remotely on the same level as the pleasing arrangement of windows and detail on the adjoining two buildings. It does compare favorably though with infill I’ve seen on the continent in historic settings – it’s probably about the best we can do other than reproductions (at least for facade).
@gunter wrote:
vkid, I think you’re trying to set the urban debate back forty years. The building stock on Ellen St., Rutland St. Patrick St. etc. is part of the collective assets of Limerick City. If you dispose of these assets, you’ve got to be bloody sure that you’ve replaced them with someting of higher value.
Not my intention but i do think some level of compromise is needed and if any are to go(which in this country seems inevitable), then the buildings on Ellen Street would be my choice (Quinns/Vintage Club not included as already stated).
I just hate that street, georgian stock or not its horrible, and retaining those buildings is not going to make it any better imo. Even in the best Limerick Summer 😀 it is dark and grim and i really believe it is the width of the street that makes it so.
Again my opinion and sure we’re all entitled to that..even if we have no real influence on the outcome.
@KeepAnEyeOnBob wrote:
. . . a bit less gloomy on a typical Limerick rainy day . . .
@vkid wrote:
. . . even in the best Limerick Summer 😀
Just remember I’m not the one who brought up the subject of rain 😉
. . . but since we’re on the subject of rain, and at the risk of going slightly OT, how exactly did ye in Limerick dispose of your rainfall from the valleys of these double lateral pitched roofed Georgian terraces?
Any ideas?
Or was rainfall so improbable that it didn’t have to be factored in.
@GrahamH wrote:
And a further example of where unregulated retailers get their way…
Why is it called the Opera Centre?
Simply because the 19th Century Soprano Catherine Hayes was born at 4 Patrick Street. It’s still a silly name though!
@gunter wrote:
If the demolition of a complete ‘Georgian’ terrace, like that on Ellen Street, was ruled out, the way it should have been, the developers would have had to work around it, from day one!
The way I understand it, the ‘Opera Centre’ has already been permitted and that what is proposed now are revisions to the approved development, is that the position, does anyone know?
The complex has indeed been given the go ahead as per the planning application. Limerick City Council’s inability to safeguard buildings of historical or architectural merit is there for all to see! Once again they have given developers a licence to do as they please. It’s the city planners that should be dictating to the developers exactly what type of development is acceptable and not the other way around!
It’s interesting to note that under the original planning application back in late 2005, it was proposed to refurbish the Quins building (No. 9) and also to retain the facades of the Georgian terrace.
Here are some extracts from the An Bord Pleanala inspectors report (October 2006);
Ellen Street Appraisal
The laneway extending from the car park is book-ended on Ellen St. by the impressive 3-storey stone façade of No. 9, a building currently accommodating a public house/restaurant (which appeared closed) and a garden centre. This building is of visual quality but appears in need of refurbishment and rehabilitation.
To the north-west of the stone building, Nos. 4-8 Ellen St. comprise a generally intact Georgian terrace of good visual quality. Again, these buildings appear to be in need of significant rehabilitation, with extensive vegetation growing on their front facades, and with the original windows and shopfronts having been replaced by poor quality
and/or unremarkable modern interventions.CONDITIONS
The front façades of the Georgian period buildings No’s 4, 5 and 6 Ellen Street shall be conserved and repaired and shall be integrated into the new build at ground floor level, so as to be active streetfronts.
The Georgian period buildings No’s 7, 8 and 9 Ellen Street shall be conserved and repaired, including the shopfront of No. 8. No’s 7 and 8 shall be laid out so as to open onto the street and onto the internal circulation mall of the proposed development.
@gunter wrote:
Just remember I’m not the one who brought up the subject of rain 😉
What was the old saying Günter? . . . . . in Ireland it only rains twice a week: once for 3 days and once for 4!
@gunter wrote:
. . . but since we’re on the subject of rain, and at the risk of going slightly OT, how exactly did ye in Limerick dispose of your rainfall from the valleys of these double lateral pitched roofed Georgian terraces?
Any ideas?
Or was rainfall so improbable that it didn’t have to be factored in.
Good question . . . . . . I presume there is a drainpipe system built into the chimney stack?
The mind boggles as to how their attics have escaped flooding over last 200+ years especially after an extreme thunder storm i.e. hail-stones followed by buckets of rain!
@vkid wrote:
I cant say i’m sorry to see some of the Ellen Street buildings go either because its a horrid street. Dark, pokey and dingy, the street is too narrow and the light is blocked by the buildings height. Its the one street in the city with Georgian Stock that is just too narrow imo to carry the buildings well. Thats not because of modern developments either, it is a just a very narrow street relative to the likes of O’Connel street or William Street and is all the worse for it. I will be sorry to see the Quinns building go but thats about all..the rest no loss imo.
Entrance Ellen Street / Michael StreetVkid, if Ellen Street suffers a lack of light due to the height of the existing buildings then surely this will deteriorate more as the new design is apparently higher than it is today. See image above and first image below.
The last image below is a fragment of the first design of Ellen Street. (Ignore that awful proposed entrance to it and Ignore the pedestrian bridge). At least one can imagine how these retained Georgian buildings and the cut-stone buildings could be integrated into the shopping centre. In my opinion if professionally done they would add a touch of real class / charm to the Opera Centre!
@vkid wrote:
Not my intention but i do think some level of compromise is needed and if any are to go(which in this country seems inevitable), then the buildings on Ellen Street would be my choice (Quinns/Vintage Club not included as already stated).
I just hate that street, georgian stock or not its horrible, and retaining those buildings is not going to make it any better imo. Even in the best Limerick Summer 😀 it is dark and grim and i really believe it is the width of the street that makes it so.
Again my opinion and sure we’re all entitled to that..even if we have no real influence on the outcome.
Go to Temple Bar in Dublin and see numerous pokey little lanes which are absolutely charming and full of Georgian buildings. The only reason Ellen Street looks dingy is that it’s got a tiny footpath, there are no standards for shopfronts, and it’s got trees growing out of its buildings. Clean it up a bit and widen the footpaths (or pedestrianize it) and it’ll look great.
This is just a rough sketch I slapped together just to give people an idea of the scale of the opera centre and the impact it would have on the streetscape if it was to proceed in its current form.
It’s pretty dramatic!
At long long last Limerick City Council have got their act together and launched a proper digital planning system, so you can now view the planning files online!:eek:
Attached are some of the scanned CGI’s from the Opera Centre application.
#1. Ellen Street elevation
#2. Bank Place entrance & plaza area
#3. Rutland Street elevation
#4. Glazed entrance feature to replace existing Bruce House.
Just a couple of quick observations, That glazed infill building adjacent to the old town hall is much worse that I first thought and those modern shopfronts on the Georgian period buildings look absolutely ridiculous!
@Tuborg wrote:
Just a couple of quick observations, That glazed infill building adjacent to the old town hall is much worse that I first thought and those modern shopfronts on the Georgian period buildings look absolutely ridiculous!
Even allowing that the last three photo-montages come out of some CGI bargain basement and, it has to be said, they’re not doing the scheme any favours, surely the Opera Centre’s scale of flashy intervention is way too much, and would be far too dominant and therefore destructive of the coherence of the streetscape
I know that Lubeck example didn’t go down too well:rolleyes:, but here’s an indisputably top-notch example of how to do this kind of thing from Nurnberg.
OK it’s a museum (Neues Museum of Art & Design, opened 2001), not a shopping centre, but the principal of creating dramatic contemporary entrances to open up back-land sites while, at the same time, maintaining a respectful presence in the streetscape, should still apply.
Two or three well crafted re-workings of the neo-Georgian bits of Patrick St./Rutland St., incorporating dramatic new entrances, would surely be a lot more successful, and less destructive of the street’s character and coherence, than what’s been proposed.
@Tuborg wrote:
At long long last Limerick City Council have got their act together and launched a proper digital planning system, so you can now view the planning files online!:eek:
Indeed long overdue . . . . . hopefully it will produce more transparency for the general public.
Those modern shopfronts on the Georgian period buildings look absolutely ridiculous!
I’m very disappointed with them too, very sterile looking to be honest.
Limerick Leader updates . . . . . Opera Shopping Centre versus Coonagh Shopping Centre
@gunter wrote:
I know that Lubeck example didn’t go down too well:rolleyes:, but here’s an indisputably top-notch example of how to do this kind of thing from Nurnberg..
More on that here… lovely building in a nice little square
http://germany.archiseek.com/bavaria/nuremberg/design_museum.htmlAttached is a revised CGI of Rutland Street. The developers now intend to retain the 19th Century shopfront of the former Glynn’s Butchers while also exposing and restoring the brickwork underneath the cement at first floor level.
Also, the doorway of the former Bruce Bank is to be incorporated into the remodelled shopfront of No.4 Rutland Street.
An elaborately carved limestone doorcase, dated 1806, displaying detailing of the Doric order. The quality of which is an indication of the grandeur of the original building to which this doorcase belongs. While the loss of the structure is regrettable the re-insertion of the doorcase is a pleasant feature on the streetscape. (NIAH)
Let me get this straight, Tuborg;
They’re planning to take the elaborate Venetian doorcase belonging to the former Bruce Bank and stick it on no. 4!
What makes them think that the original simple limestone doorcase to no. 4 (matching that on the butchers) isn’t hidden behind that pink and black plywood shopfront?
Would it not be obscene if they ended up hacking out the original, early Georgian, doorcase of no. 4 and then replaced it by the later Georgian doorcase from two door up! . . . and passing this off as ‘conservation gain’?
The ‘Bruce Bank’ door.I’m have a hard time believing that the ‘Bruce Bank’ doorcase is as late as 1806, but leaving that aside, it’s precisely the early features, the simple door surrounds, the moulded cills and the window proportions, that make the Rutland Street and Bank Place houses so facinating.
The two surviving door surrounds on Pank Place and the matching door from around the corner at no. 1 Rutland Street.Absolutey agree.
There are very few magnificent Georgian buildings in Limerick.
However, the lesser, quainter, simpler, cheaper buildings of the city are its very fabric – the canvas as it were. They set a tone of quiet sobriety and aspiration to an aesthetic completeness that is/ was very ambitious.It would be a travesty to interfere with those buildings at Bank Place and Rutland st.
If you enter the city from the Clare (Killaloe) side – the city is pretty much the same as it was 200 years ago form Nicholas St. to Patrick st. (Sarsfield House, which I kinda like, aside) – St. Mary’s cathedral, the courthouse, the old courthouse, the Matthew bridge, bank place, the granary, the custom house etc.The corner of Bank Place is like a portal or a gateway into Rutland, Patrick, O’Connell st.
As such, it is very, very important to the look and feel of Limerick as a Georgian city.As well as all that, the height of all of the surrounding buildings is set by this row of buildings.
IF ABP ok’s their demolition – we’ll have to stage a Hume St-esque sit in.
😮@vitruvius wrote:
The corner of Bank Place is like a portal or a gateway into Rutland, Patrick, O’Connell st.
As such, it is very, very important to the look and feel of Limerick as a Georgian city.Very much impressed with that part of town myself, and we’re not the only ones, I came across this description by the American travel writer, J. Stirling Coyne, in his ”The Landscape and Antiquities of Ireland” published in 1842:
”A more superb city-view can hardly be presented to the eye, than the range of buildings from the new bridge (Mathew Bridge) to the Crescent, a distance little short of an English mile, including Rutland Street, Patrick Street, George’s Street, and the Tontine?”As a Dub, you’d think I’d get sick of Georgian terraces, but I have to say, the scale and relative completeness of Georgian Limerick has been a real eye-opener. For all it’s UNESCO World Heritage Site status, I’ve always found Edinburgh’s New Town (ok, apart from Charlotte Square) pretty provincial and disappointingly suburban, certainly now by comparison with Limerick. (If we can drag johnglas into this discussion I know he’ll be more than happy to expand on Edinburrrrr’s shortcomings;))
And again, as mentioned before, it’s the relative completeness of the streetscape and the legibility in being able to read the cronological progression from the simple box fanlights of Rutland Street to the full-blown semi-circular fanlights up at the Crescent, that particularly delights.
Rutland St. from Patrick St.The two important neo-Georgians, either side of the angle are proposed to be replaced by a glass fronted retail window into the Opera Centre (posted by Tuborg above), as is the altered five storey this side of the old town hall. We can argue that the loss of chimney stacks, the crudeness of many of the shopfronts, and the unfortunate brickwork of the neo-Georgian in-fill schemes, have impaired the quality of the streetscape, but not fatally and not irreversibly.
The proposed ‘Opera Centre’ interventions seem to deliberately set out to interupt this rhythm! . . The larger breach, at the angle, is particularly damaging, IMO, in that it messes about with the angle in the streetscape and even appears to bridge over the footpath at the upper levels, introducing a third angle that crudely ’rounds’ this perfectly successful and subtle junction.
The second intervention takes out the (admittedly altered) five storey structure beside the old Town Hall and also engulfs the adjacent laneway. Again this seems to me to be an unecessarilly aggressive move when more subtle options appear to be available.
That councellor who strongly advocated the city centre merits of the ‘Opera Centre’, over it’s out-of-town shopping centre rival is absolutely right, but surely not at any price. Urban regeneration that can’t embrace conservation where it’s merited is not worth having. and we shouldn’t be talking about grudging, token, conservation either, but proper enthusiastic conservation.
@gunter wrote:
The second intervention takes out the (admittedly altered) five storey structure beside the old Town Hall and also engulfs the adjacent laneway. Again this seems to me to be an unecessarilly aggressive move when more subtle options appear to be available.
Strange building that. I remember seeing a picture of the Town Hall and surrounding buildings from the late 19th or early 20th Century showing the above building with a stuccoed facade.
The only image I could find on the city museum site is attached below and dates from around 1930 or so. You can just about see that some features such as the decorative window surrounds have been removed so Im guessing it was around this time that the facade was demolished and replaced with the current rather odd arrangement?
It’s not beyond the bounds of imagination to conserve these buildings AND to add infill behind.
Anybody on here knows the Trinity science block, which abuts Westland Row?
The houses in Westland Row are nothing to write home about, BUT they are a continuous, unbroken, unadulterated row. The interstitium is filled with a glazed atrium which has access at various levels to the thoroughly modern, functional buildings behind.
The architects took the opinion that the new buildings would have a finite life, hence when in 15/20 years they have to be rebuilt, they can be, without damaging the fabric of the original buildings on Westland Row.It’d certainly make for a nice shopping experience than some glass and marble, air conditioned, security-guard patrolled shopping centre.
Limerick City Council should adopt an attitude of what we have, we hold.
Although, having just learned that they voted to delist the boat club, these morons could do anything.@vitruvius wrote:
It’s not beyond the bounds of imagination to conserve these buildings AND to add infill behind.
It’d certainly make for a nice shopping experience (rather) than some glass and marble, air conditioned, security-guard patrolled shopping centre.
I agree with you there vitruvious, and I had thought that what you describe was the way that shopping centre design was heading. I thought we were moving away from enclosed malls into a new ‘sheltered street’ future.
Slightly askew plan of the Opera Centre, with the few retained buildings in brown.The published street montages and the blurb (most recently in the cover article in ‘Built Environment’ Jan/Feb. 09) argue that the cull of historic fabric, and neo-Georgian in-fiil, is all for the purpose of creating a vibrant, innovative, contemporary, ‘Urban Mall’, but The lay-out and the published images of the interior look anything but innovative, or vibrant.
Published view across the Abbey River to Bank Place.The internal ‘mall’ with the out-sized glazed entrance on the corner of Patrick St./Ellen St. doesn’t even run all the way through to Bank Place! The big glass box from the images of Bank Place isn’t the northern end of the ‘mall’ spilling out onto the ‘sculpture garden overlooking the river’, but instead is just a department store, or ‘anchor tennant’, that creates a cul-de-sac arrangement at the top of the ‘mall’. This would make the Opera Centre even more reminiscent of the miserable ‘Omni Centre’ in Santry, than the miserable ‘Crumlin Shopping Centre’ in Drimnagh!
Not only that, but the surprisingly heavy roof design of the truncated ‘mall’ looks like something out of a grim futuristic prison movie!
If you stand back and look at this scheme, the Opera Centre incorporates almost every bad idea from the last fifty years of urban regeneration:
Demolition of a entire ‘Georgian’ streetscape (the north side of Ellen Street).
Disembodied facade retention (Patrick Street & Rutland Street)
Reversal of 15 year old? ‘Georgian’ urban repair (Patrick Street & Rutland Street)
Aggressive (”bold”) architectural in-fill at ultra-sensitive locations (all street frontages)
The open invitation to misuse that is the fully glazed facade to multi-level retail space.
Out-dated enclosed cul-de-sac ‘mall’ typology instead of contemporay ‘sheltered street’ ideas.On the positive side, this is a great location and a progressive regeneration proposal here would, without question, have the potential to massively reinforce the commercial heart of city centre and re-focus this centre up at the Abbey River, which is the linchpin of the historic city.
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