The Opera Centre

I guess this is of some relevence. What are your thoughts on the whole thing PoxyShamrock?

http://www.limerickpost.ie/dailynews.elive?id=7479&category=Daily-Thu

Worrying times for the Opera Centre, and I must admt the picture in the post was fairly hideous.

Opera centre backers express concern at start-up delay

THERE is growing concern that the investors behind the proposed m200 euro Opera Shopping Centre at Patrick Street/Rutland Street, might be discouraged from proceeding because of the start-up delay imposed by a planning objection to the project.

Limerick auctioneer Pat Kearney, who spent three years putting the package together, this week told the Limerick Post that they were already running well behind time.

“One local person has cited objections to the proposed development in a lengthy submission to An Bord Pleanala, and a decision is not expected until late October, and even then there are no guarantees.

“It is not for me to discuss the merits or otherwise of the objections raised, but what I will say is, that all connected with the project are becoming frustrated. “The developers had set a timeline of 2007 for the grand opening, but now we are looking at well into 2008.

“We had to negotiated with something like 40 clients in putting the entire deal together and they are looking for their money. All is now in the lap of the gods. There are some crucial weeks ahead.

“The danger is that retailers who had expressed an interest in locating at the Opera Centre might be having second thoughts because of the delay. Take Debenhams, for example. It is known they had shown an interest in becoming an anchor tenant, but they have since leased the Roches Stores property”.

Mr Kearney, in calling for a review of the planning process, pointed out that the developers were not in a position to draw down finance until such time as the path had been cleared to commence demolition work on the existing buildings.

“We are talking in terms of a multi million euro investment-this will be the biggest inner city development of its type in Limerick and let’s hope it will be resolved as soon as possible”.

Ahhh, the old FUD technique to try and scare the council….

FUD?
I’m not familiar with this acronym.:o

Fear Uncertainty Doubt – coined by IBM execs I think, as a way of encouraging people to buy IBM in the 80s

Thanks, Paul.

I’m hearing rumours that approval may have been granted, no word on conditions as yet.

€350m Limerick centre gets go-ahead

KATHRYN HAYES

PLANNING PERMISSION has been granted for the largest shopping centre in the midwest.

The €350 million Opera Centre in Limerick city is expected to create over 300 jobs during the construction phase and a further 800 jobs when completed.

The 38,500sq m facility will consist of two anchor units and 38 other retail units, as well as a basement car park with 505 spaces.

Construction is expected to take over two years to complete, but a start date for the massive project will be subject to approval from An Bord Pleanála.

Limerick City Council confirmed yesterday that planning permission had been granted for the multimillion euro development.

The local authority has already acquired a large number of plots of land and properties in Limerick city in order to pave the way for the construction of the centre, which was first mooted in 2005.

New plans lodged last May incorporate six additional buildings, including the Granary and the old Town Hall which are protected structures and are to be preserved.

The approved plans will also preserve the original home on Patrick Street of Limerick-born soprano Catherine Hayes, which will be refurbished and handed back to Limerick Civic Trust.

Mayor of Limerick John Gilligan said it was a vote of confidence in Limerick city but warned that was just the beginning of the process.

“I’m delighted, particularly with the news that so many jobs will be created, jobs which will be high quality and sustainable in the long term,” he said. “However, this is not the end of the process. I hope there will be discussions with the sitting tenants who will be affected by this development and we can do everything we can to facilitate them,” he said.

Pat Keogh, the project manager for Regeneration Developments Ltd, said he welcomed Limerick City Council’s decision to grant planning permission, adding that the company was still considering the conditions the council had attached before making any further comment.

An Bord Pleanála meanwhile is due to rule later this month on an objection to a compulsory purchase order by Limerick City Council of a small plot of land needed to facilitate the development.

The local authority wants to gain title to Bank Place, which is less than 100sq m in size, but Trinity Rooms nightclub, which is located beside the site, has objected to the compulsory purchase order because it claims it will put the future of the nightclub at risk.

At a recent oral hearing, Limerick City Council senior planner Dick Tobin, admitted that revised plans for the Opera Centre development could put the nightclub’s future in jeopardy.

However the local authority had to “weigh carefully the opportunity to create 1,000 jobs with the temporary displacement of 100 jobs at Trinity Rooms”.

In a statement issued after the hearing, Pat Barry, managing director of Trinity Rooms, claimed this was “an appallingly cavalier attitude” to the jobs and livelihood of his workers.

© 2008 The Irish Times

Are the two images in the above post images of the same part of the centre or is the first image the Ellen St/Michael St entrance?

The top image is the proposed entrance at the corner of Ellen Street/Michael Street, not very inspiring is it? Unfortunately the developers think its an appropriate replacement for the historic buildings on Ellen Street!:rolleyes: The corner feature will be accomodated anyway, regardless of whether the buildings are retained or not as the site is vacant between Quins pub and the street corner!

There are 18 conditions attached to the grant of permission, Dan have you recieved any information on these?

@Tuborg wrote:

The top image is the proposed entrance at the corner of Ellen Street/Michael Street, not very inspiring is it? Unfortunately the developers think its an appropriate replacement for the historic buildings on Ellen Street!:rolleyes: The corner feature will be accomodated anyway, regardless of whether the buildings are retained or not as the site is vacant between Quins pub and the street corner!

There are 18 conditions attached to the grant of permission, Dan have you recieved any information on these?

Considering what’s there right now, I don’t think anybody could complain about that corner entrance to the Opera Centre!

shanekeane:

Really? What about the Ellen Street side just past the corner entrance? The mockup is nice blue sky and sunny, but will the bland side facade there (which will not look white in dull Limerick weather) really look better than the brick buildings along the street at present? Sure the old AIB building is an eyesore, but I think the development will just change Ellen Street from a rundown brick facaded street to a modern faceless alley.

@KeepAnEyeOnBob wrote:

shanekeane:

Really? What about the Ellen Street side just past the corner entrance? The mockup is nice blue sky and sunny, but will the bland side facade there (which will not look white in dull Limerick weather) really look better than the brick buildings along the street at present? Sure the old AIB building is an eyesore, but I think the development will just change Ellen Street from a rundown brick facaded street to a modern faceless alley.

Ok, hang on. The corner of Ellen Street and Michael Street? That is currently boarded up, was until recently a surface car park. Actually it wasn’t, it was just a piece of tarmac across the road from the Watergate flats with broken glass all over it that people used as a car park. I’m not saying that this is magnificent, but it will surely look better than that.

I can’t see from the picture how far this goes down. Does it take up the whole of Ellen Street? I actually quite like Ellen Street. It has old antique shops and shopfronts and if it were cleaned up and pedestrianized it could be quite quaint. I certainly don’t agree with knocking the Georgian buildings, but I think that picture shows what will be on the corner part which is just tarmac.

Sorry, I was referring to the second image, the corner of Patrick/Ellen St.

I’m gutted. Limerick takes a step closer to being Ireland’s answer to a soulless, UK provincial town; Swansea – anyone?

:rolleyes: Horrible, horrible. Arthur’s Quay on steroids.

There’s so much brownfield in Limerick why destroy a huge chunk of historical stock? It can only be justified by a hatred of Georgian and historic buildings as none of these buildings are derelict given they are in active use (or were up to a year ago or so). The current terrace from the bridge to Ellen St. will be missed. It’s the same idiocy which welcomed the destruction of the old Cannocks building (and most of that block), championed the Sarsfield St. Dunnes, the creation of Liddy St., Arthur’s Quay, etc.. And no, a single restoration along with fascade retention (an 80s concept which at this stage would be laughed at by any enlightened planning dept) does not imply anything but the meanest lip-service to respecting Limerick’s historic structure. This developing is so dated in concept and execution it’s laughable.

Mark my words, in less than 20 years time, people will look at “old” photos of Patrick St. and Ellen St. as they are now and wonder wtf were people thinking?

@jimg wrote:

I’m gutted. Limerick takes a step closer to being Ireland’s answer to a soulless, UK provincial town; Swansea – anyone?

:rolleyes: Horrible, horrible. Arthur’s Quay on steroids.

There’s so much brownfield in Limerick why destroy a huge chunk of historical stock? It can only be justified by a hatred of Georgian and historic buildings as none of these buildings are derelict given they are in active use (or were up to a year ago or so). The current terrace from the bridge to Ellen St. will be missed. It’s the same idiocy which welcomed the destruction of the old Cannocks building (and most of that block), championed the Sarsfield St. Dunnes, the creation of Liddy St., Arthur’s Quay, etc.. And no, a single restoration along with fascade retention (an 80s concept which at this stage would be laughed at by any enlightened planning dept) does not imply anything but the meanest lip-service to respecting Limerick’s historic structure. This developing is so dated in concept and execution it’s laughable.

Mark my words, in less than 20 years time, people will look at “old” photos of Patrick St. and Ellen St. as they are now and wonder wtf were people thinking?

I absolutely agree. Why couldn’t they just leave the georgian buildings alone and buy out all that tat which is on the other side of michael st.? When they come to knock down Arthur’s Quay, you can bet that those georgian facades still attached to it will go aswell, so that the illusion that there was any retention of the georgian buildings will be exposed for what it is, a lie. When they knock down the Opera Centre, somebody will point out that all that remains are facades, so there’s no point in keeping them.

Limerick City Council is, by any standards, the worst city council in the history of the world. They have presided over the destruction of the historic georgian city of Limerick. It makes me want to retch in my dinner that these criminals and buffoons are getting paid out of our taxes. They should be tarred and feathered and hunted out of Limerick. They’re a bunch of incompetent, parochial, fat, pasty, peanut-brained, overpaid assholes, with brains the consistency of green, spinach-tainted messy shit. There are no words in English strong enough to express my contempt for them. They should be fed to the radioactive fishes.

@Tuborg wrote:

The top image is the proposed entrance at the corner of Ellen Street/Michael Street, not very inspiring is it? Unfortunately the developers think its an appropriate replacement for the historic buildings on Ellen Street!:rolleyes: The corner feature will be accomodated anyway, regardless of whether the buildings are retained or not as the site is vacant between Quins pub and the street corner!

There are 18 conditions attached to the grant of permission, Dan have you recieved any information on these?

Hadn’t checked in since I got the letter about the permission, the 18 conditions are the usual run of the mill sort of thing you’d get with any large development. I think the removal of the Ellen st. facades is purely a delaying tactic to ensure they don’t have to start work straight away. They want it to go to ABP in my view.

Even by Irish standards, the handling of whole opera centre project has been an absolute joke! It has lurched from shambles to shambles over the course of the last three years and theres definitely more to come!

Theres little chance that the Council have ordered the retention of the Ellen Street buildings so that means an appeal to ABP, which will add another year at least to this sorry saga! In fairness they’ll have no one to blame but themselves, how they would allow buildings of character to be sacrificed for this rubbish is just totally beyond me!

The developers have constantly moaned about the difficulties in retaining these buildings, whinging that they have to be pulled down due to their internal condition. This has already been shown to be absolute rubbish and anyway modern engineering techniques would take care of this no problem if needed! Looks like the planners have been made to have bend over yet again with worrying ease!:(

Im getting tired of saying it but these buildings have to be retained not only to protect the character of the street but also to minimise the effect of this mammoth new build on the area. We are already going to be left with a blank wall spanning Michael Street down as far as the granary! Allowing a similar situation on Ellen Street would be a catastrophic mistake!

@Dan Sullivan wrote:

Hadn’t checked in since I got the letter about the permission, the 18 conditions are the usual run of the mill sort of thing you’d get with any large development. I think the removal of the Ellen st. facades is purely a delaying tactic to ensure they don’t have to start work straight away. They want it to go to ABP in my view.

I think you’re right Dan, they know the history of the previous application where the demolition of the Ellen Street buildings was appealed and subsequently overturned. Also with the length of time its currently taking ABP to sort out its workload, they’ll probably be in a position to ride out the current economic difficulties!

All this of course means we’re going to be left with an ever worsening eyesore for a good while yet!:o:mad:

https://archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=7925&d=1218657464

what have those fuckheads done to our city?

@Tuborg wrote:

Fight over plaza could halt €350m shopping centre plan

A SMALL disputed plaza could jeopardise the future of a proposed €350m shopping centre development .

The Bank Place plaza, at the entrance to Trinity Rooms nightclub in Limerick, is the subject of a compulsory purchase order by Limerick City Council.

The order has been appealed to An Bord Pleanala by operators of the popular nightclub.

Bord Pleanála decision on Limerick compulsory purchase order has been delayed.

Monday 22 September 2008 (Live95fm)

A ruling on Bank Place outside the Granary was expected today, but has been delayed as the Board has not yet seen the report. It’s understood the file is still with the inspector.

The delay will further stall the 350 million euro Opera Centre.

Limerick City Council says the CPO is a vital part of the Centre development while Management at Trinity Rooms is objecting to it, saying it will lead to the closure of their business

A spokesperson for An Bord Pleanála says the matter is at a very advanced stage.

It’s now unclear when the decision will be reached. :confused:

The Opera Centre should keep An Bord Pleanála busy until the property market picks up again. :rolleyes:

An Bord Pleanala have announced that it will now be the end of October before a decision is made on the dispute over the Bank Place CPO.:rolleyes:

Decision on future of Limerick Opera Centre to be known in late October

A decision on the future of the Opera Centre in Limerick will not be known until the end of October.

Limerick City Council is waiting for An Bord Pleanála to rule on the compulsory purchase of a small plot of land outside the Granary known as Bank Place.

A spokesperson for the planning board said today it will be late next month before a decision is made on the CPO.

This will further delay the start of the redevelopment of the Patrick Street – Ellen Street area which was initially mooted in 2005.

Link

Why be pathetic

Why wait and be pathetic?

An bord an pleanala. You are being pathetic. If there was a genuine reason for the wait fair enough. But, waiting another month? What’s the point of it. Oh god I dunno…….

Confirmation of the Irish Georgian Society appeal to An Bord Pleanala.

The case is due to be decided by 13-02-2009.

I had a look at the DouglasWallace website and found this.

Its basically just a load of annoying PR nonsense but anyway…

Situated in the heart of Limerick’s historic quarter the Opera centre will lead the regeneration of a city centre in a state of decline. The proposal creates an outstanding retail experience and with the enthusiastic support of the all the stakeholders will provide a bright future for the people of Limerick.

Externally the proposal consists of ground level shop units opening onto the street, their display and activity expressed and reinforced through the glass and metal facade framed over with signage. The area above street level is punctured by a series of protruding lightboxes and retail display to create rhythm and verticality which help to break down the scale of the facade to match the urban grain of the surrounding Georgian plot pattern. The restaurant is emphasised by projecting out it’s double height space and this marked focus helps to express the associated activity and use externally to the streetscape.

The materials used are planar glazing, fritted opaque glazed cladding, aluminium cladding and white/grey limestone cladding with the opaque glass and aluminium cladding used primarily at ground floor level. Above, a banded cut ashlar stone is used, in keeping with stone used in buildings of importance in the Georgian streetscape. This stone façade is then punctured to preserve the lightness of the building.

Internally the circulation areas are treated more as a streetscape than a traditional mall. The glazed roof creates a visible connection with outside and provides large amounts of natural light. Walkways guide the visitor through the space with crossing bridges providing intrigue and invite use of the upper levels.

• 40,000m2 of retail space arranged over 3 No. levels with exciting ‘streetscape’ circulation areas
• create new public spaces which are sadly lacking in the existing city centre as nodal points along pedestrian circulation routes and form a relationship with the river
• inviting entrance areas encouraging visitors to enter the centre
• roof garden and food court for social and leisure activities increasing footfall to the upper l
  evels
• sculptural café pavilion in riverside public space
• 500 spaces in basement parking to enhance the parking already provided within the city centre.

Attached are mock-ups of the Bank Place and Ellen Street entrances along with the rooftop garden.:rolleyes:

Truly hideous, and it would be a scar on the streetscape. The run down buildings *almost* look better! Certainly they probably look better even in current condition than all that light coloured structure will in anything from months to years when the weather gets hold of it (probably months – look at that place on bedford row – magically modern buildings are somehow expected not to need gutters or some arrangement of the facade that dirty water doesn’t run down it).

Just a glorified 21st century Arthur’s Quay…

You have to love the way they’ve photoshopped a couple of quaint litttle Georgian buildings into the background of the Ellen Street shot. In reality the site where those imaginary buildings stand is currently occupied by a surface car park and a service yard for a nightclub and a pub!:rolleyes:

Note also how the buildings on the right hand site of Ellen Street have had their pitched roofs magically re-instated at the click of a mouse!

Its just a pity they dont show a similiar interest in the buildings on the opposite side of the street!:mad:

And it suffers from the usual lots of glass, which will be covered up by the retailers

@Paul Clerkin wrote:

And it suffers from the usual lots of glass, which will be covered up by the retailers

Views of the existing Streetscape.

Whatever about the individual quality of the 1990s in-fill, and not knowing the condition of the buildings/sites they replaced, at least they left the ‘Georgian’ streetscape repaired and largely intact.

The ‘Opera Centre’ scheme goes for maximum impact by way of maximum contrast. The problem with this approach is that it robs the existing streetscape of it’s recently mended coherence, it dates very quickly, the vast areas of glass never look as impressive in reality as they do in the developers’ brochure, it invites misuse by retailers (as Paul said), and the glitzy new corners, instead of patinating into maturity, inevitably start the slow slide into shabbyness from the first day the scaffolding comes down.

Unfortunately, when the sky is that blue, the glass is that shimmering, and the virtual people look like they just strolled off the plane from Milan, it’s hard not to be captivated by the images!

I like the sky view pic, I think it looks fantastic. It doesn’t look cheapish at all. I do like how they incoparated the Georgian into the whole front of the complex.

Guy’s would you f**** lay off the pognance for a while. Seroously. Like what are you looking for instead.

Irish people really have no innovation or radical minds. Really none of you have, none of you can come up with something bettter. But whinge all day long. Bottom line none of you will be happy. It’s all so easy to be so negative. Every deveolopement will have its positive and negatives. Irish people prefare to sit all day and moan about how it’s not up to the job. If you don’t like it, come up with something better. If you don’t have anything and you don’t have your money out on the table. I suggest you shut up. Life goes on.

Will you all bloody smile for once.:rolleyes:

dave123:

Seriously, it isn’t hyperbole. Just look at the condition of buildings finished only months or a year or two ago, not to mention anything from the early 00s or 90s. They have barely been designed in a way that ensures they look good even in the short term, nevermind 5 or even 10 years (and really I see no reason why building in the city centre shouldn’t be considered for 50 years at a minimum – it’s quite wasteful to have this “disposable building” mentality).

Can you not bend your mind as to how the structures in the mock-up will look like in real life, and more particularly after just a couple months of exposure to the elements?

As for new ideas, I certainly do want to see some. How about instead of yet another iteration of the failed city-centre mall idea, we get more extensive pedestrianisation and some “anchor stores” for the city centre in general? Debenhams and Brown Thomas are absolutely pathetic compared to real department stores on the continent for example (I don’t really have enough experience of the UK to compare – I’m guessing they are similarly miserable – that’s where we’ve got all the same broken ideas that we’ve been using).

@dave123 wrote:

I like the sky view pic, I think it looks fantastic.

Guy’s would you f**** lay off the pognance for a while. Seroously. Like what are you looking for instead.

It doesn’t always have to be a debate about one extreme or the other, ‘mock Georgians’ or
‘glass prisms’, there’s a whole range of contemporary architectural solutions that could announce the insertion of a new shopping district into a predominantly Georgian streetscape, without reaching for the glass cladding brochures.

This is a somewhat similar development situation snapped recently from a hoarding in Lubeck.

I’m not sure if it’s going to be entirely successful, but at least these guys had enough sense to limit the glass to a few featured openings in a otherwise stone facade, and they also managed to design the scheme with a contemporary reference to the Hanseatic gabled tradition that, in Lubeck, is the predominant architectural characteristic of the city. I also like the fact that their promotional image doesn’t try to cod people that there will always be a Mediteranean sky!

I’m just posting it to demonstrate that there are other options.

To me, the images of the ‘Opera Centre’ ring all kinds of alarm bells that we haven’t actually learned anything after 80 years of the Modern Movement. We still think that retaining any sense of a unified coherence to a city is backward looking, that keeping the odd disembodied facade is enough to retain ‘the character’ of a street, and that shopping centres are so important, and hard to find, that they need four storey, block and a half deep, illuminated glass entrances.

I don t see how that development would be in anyway better than whats on offer with the opera Centre. I dont see the issue with glass and if thats the alternative, give me the Opera Centre anyday.

That Lubeck design is truly hideous Gunter and I have to agree with Dave123..what exactly do ye want..restore georgian buildings to their original format, and be left with buildings that are about useful restored as they are in their current state. If people want new life in the city centre then compromise is needed but that yoke in Lubeck is not in any way appealing to me. I’d prefer the glass. People seem to have the idyllic notion of european developments being so much better when in my own experience in the likes of the Netherlands, Belgium, France and the UK there are way worse examples than whats being proposed here.

I cant say i’m sorry to see some of the Ellen Street buildings go either because its a horrid street. Dark, pokey and dingy, the street is too narrow and the light is blocked by the buildings height. Its the one street in the city with Georgian Stock that is just too narrow imo to carry the buildings well. Thats not because of modern developments either, it is a just a very narrow street relative to the likes of O’Connel street or William Street and is all the worse for it. I will be sorry to see the Quinns building go but thats about all..the rest no loss imo.

My only real concern with the Opera Centre is the rear of the development along side the Granary and the old Workspace..there’s been little mention of that anywhere..and I’m curious to whats the plan for this aspect of the devlopment

I’m sorry but all this talk about the demolition of one side of Ellen Street being in some way acceptable is absolute rubbish! Just how bland do you want this city to become? Demolition of historic streetscape is just not acceptable and especially not when its replacement is a garish plastic monstrosity. Anyone who thinks the proposal for Ellen Street is superior to the existing streetscape is seriously kidding themselves!

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I am in favour of the opera centre because I understand how important it is to the viability of the city centre but that dosent mean it should be allowed sweep all before it. I just don’t get why we are so reluctant to retain perfectly good historic buildings in this country, we just cant be arsed it seems!:mad:

Some of you over enthusiastic supporters of this project need to realise that there are other issues here apart from just extra shopping space!

Remember back in 1987 Arthurs Quay was heralded as some kind of masterpiece in urban planning. It also involved the demolition of a number of georgian buildings (admittedly in poor shape but not beyond repair). Fast forward 20 short years or so and they are planning to pull the whole thing down again. Some masterplan that was!:rolleyes:

The Vintage Club House of Quin/Garden World, Ellen Street (NIAH)

Attached seven-bay three-storey over concealed basement limestone former bonded store, built c. 1760.

Appraisal
An attractive symmetrical limestone former bonded store. It is significant in terms of the quality of the external stonework. Now in use as a pub and garden shop, this structure adds variety both in height and materials to the streetscape.

See previous post: Opera Shopping Centre a watershed for Limericks Georgian Heritage?

Fact is once they are gone, up to two hundred and fifty years of history goes with them!

@vkid wrote:

..what exactly do ye want..restore georgian buildings to their original format, and be left with buildings that are about useful restored as they are in their current state.

vkid, I think you’re trying to set the urban debate back forty years. The building stock on Ellen St., Rutland St. Patrick St. etc. is part of the collective assets of Limerick City. If you dispose of these assets, you’ve got to be bloody sure that you’ve replaced them with someting of higher value.

I accept that the site could use a regeneration package, but I’d like to see it done in a way that protects and enhances the existing building stock, rather than a 1970s style scorched earth approach. Ok, it can be difficult to find good examples of how this is done well, because, of their nature, the good schemes don’t shout out ‘redevelopment’ in the same way.

This is an example of decent contemporary in-fill on O’Connell Street (by the same Limerick architects who are doing that scheme (with the medieval fireplace) at 36-39 Nicholas Street). There’s no question that the architectural skill are there, what is required, is more hands-on guidance by the Planning authorities to set out the boundaries.

Surely an ‘Opera Centre’, with the same long term impact, could be delivered, that has three or four, high quality, contemporary interventions acting as gateways into the complex, through a retained and restored streetscape.

Sometimes, when you push the developer far enough, he realizes, later on, that being forced to address conservation challenges ends up with him creating a unique development, and he goes on to make more money . . . . (and the architects won’t have to worry so much about meeting up with Sam Stephenson on judgement day).

The relative completeness of the ‘Georgian city’ in Limerick, from Bank Place to the Crescent, is quite impressive, but’s it’s a precarious thing, so much has been lost that it’s very dificult to say at what point the legibility and coherence could also be lost.

Look at Bank Place, now reduced to just three 18th Century houses, when it was the glossy dust cover to the whole post-medieval ‘new town’!

[We’ll come back to those tantalizing key stones and skew-backs and the similarities between the Bank Place terrace and the demolished George’s Quay terrace opposite, on another thread.]

@Tuborg wrote:

I’m sorry but all this talk about the demolition of one side of Ellen Street being in some way acceptable is absolute rubbish! . . . . I am in favour of the opera centre because I understand how important it is to the viability of the city centre but that dosent mean it should be allowed sweep all before it. I just don’t get why we are so reluctant to retain perfectly good historic buildings in this country,

That really is the point! If the demolition of a complete ‘Georgian’ terrace, like that on Ellen Street, was ruled out, the way it should have been, the developers would have had to work around it, from day one!

The way I understand it, the ‘Opera Centre’ has already been permitted and that what is proposed now are revisions to the approved development, is that the position, does anyone know?

@gunter wrote:

This is an example of decent contemporary in-fill on O’Connell Street (by the same Limerick architects who are doing that scheme (with the medieval fireplace) at 36-39 Nicholas Street). There’s no question that the architectural skill are there, what is required, is more hands-on guidance by the Planning authorities to set out the boundaries.

Looks surprisingly like O’Connell Street in Dublin

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7494/shuedh7.jpg

And a further example of where unregulated retailers get their way…

Why is it called the Opera Centre?

gunter:

Can’t say I’m a big fan of any infill in Limerick, but I’d certainly probably put that example ahead of other contenders, such as the hideous spectacle opposite the former Co. Co. offices further up the street.

It will probably look reasonable in another ten years too, which is saying more for it than many other new developments. The warm tan/cream colour seems to work far better than white in terms of simulataneously making things a bit less gloomy on a typical Limerick rainy day, but unlike the white, it’s not quite as much begging to become a billboard to show up the grime.

Also rather good the way it keeps (or restores) the line at the top of the buildings between its two neighbours which are shorter than the adjoining terrace.

However, the random “boxes” for windows is not aesthetically pleasing enough for my liking, and fairly bland too despite the random element. It’s not remotely on the same level as the pleasing arrangement of windows and detail on the adjoining two buildings. It does compare favorably though with infill I’ve seen on the continent in historic settings – it’s probably about the best we can do other than reproductions (at least for facade).

@gunter wrote:

vkid, I think you’re trying to set the urban debate back forty years. The building stock on Ellen St., Rutland St. Patrick St. etc. is part of the collective assets of Limerick City. If you dispose of these assets, you’ve got to be bloody sure that you’ve replaced them with someting of higher value.

Not my intention but i do think some level of compromise is needed and if any are to go(which in this country seems inevitable), then the buildings on Ellen Street would be my choice (Quinns/Vintage Club not included as already stated).

I just hate that street, georgian stock or not its horrible, and retaining those buildings is not going to make it any better imo. Even in the best Limerick Summer 😀 it is dark and grim and i really believe it is the width of the street that makes it so.

Again my opinion and sure we’re all entitled to that..even if we have no real influence on the outcome.

@KeepAnEyeOnBob wrote:

. . . a bit less gloomy on a typical Limerick rainy day . . .

@vkid wrote:

. . . even in the best Limerick Summer 😀

Just remember I’m not the one who brought up the subject of rain 😉

. . . but since we’re on the subject of rain, and at the risk of going slightly OT, how exactly did ye in Limerick dispose of your rainfall from the valleys of these double lateral pitched roofed Georgian terraces?

Any ideas?

Or was rainfall so improbable that it didn’t have to be factored in.

@GrahamH wrote:

And a further example of where unregulated retailers get their way…

Why is it called the Opera Centre?

Simply because the 19th Century Soprano Catherine Hayes was born at 4 Patrick Street. It’s still a silly name though!

Catherine Hayes Website

@gunter wrote:

If the demolition of a complete ‘Georgian’ terrace, like that on Ellen Street, was ruled out, the way it should have been, the developers would have had to work around it, from day one!

The way I understand it, the ‘Opera Centre’ has already been permitted and that what is proposed now are revisions to the approved development, is that the position, does anyone know?

The complex has indeed been given the go ahead as per the planning application. Limerick City Council’s inability to safeguard buildings of historical or architectural merit is there for all to see! Once again they have given developers a licence to do as they please. It’s the city planners that should be dictating to the developers exactly what type of development is acceptable and not the other way around!

It’s interesting to note that under the original planning application back in late 2005, it was proposed to refurbish the Quins building (No. 9) and also to retain the facades of the Georgian terrace.

Here are some extracts from the An Bord Pleanala inspectors report (October 2006);

Ellen Street Appraisal

The laneway extending from the car park is book-ended on Ellen St. by the impressive 3-storey stone façade of No. 9, a building currently accommodating a public house/restaurant (which appeared closed) and a garden centre. This building is of visual quality but appears in need of refurbishment and rehabilitation.

To the north-west of the stone building, Nos. 4-8 Ellen St. comprise a generally intact Georgian terrace of good visual quality. Again, these buildings appear to be in need of significant rehabilitation, with extensive vegetation growing on their front facades, and with the original windows and shopfronts having been replaced by poor quality
and/or unremarkable modern interventions.

CONDITIONS

The front façades of the Georgian period buildings No’s 4, 5 and 6 Ellen Street shall be conserved and repaired and shall be integrated into the new build at ground floor level, so as to be active streetfronts.

The Georgian period buildings No’s 7, 8 and 9 Ellen Street shall be conserved and repaired, including the shopfront of No. 8. No’s 7 and 8 shall be laid out so as to open onto the street and onto the internal circulation mall of the proposed development.

@gunter wrote:

Just remember I’m not the one who brought up the subject of rain 😉

What was the old saying Günter? . . . . . in Ireland it only rains twice a week: once for 3 days and once for 4!

@gunter wrote:

. . . but since we’re on the subject of rain, and at the risk of going slightly OT, how exactly did ye in Limerick dispose of your rainfall from the valleys of these double lateral pitched roofed Georgian terraces?

Any ideas?

Or was rainfall so improbable that it didn’t have to be factored in.

Good question . . . . . . I presume there is a drainpipe system built into the chimney stack?

The mind boggles as to how their attics have escaped flooding over last 200+ years especially after an extreme thunder storm i.e. hail-stones followed by buckets of rain!

@vkid wrote:

I cant say i’m sorry to see some of the Ellen Street buildings go either because its a horrid street. Dark, pokey and dingy, the street is too narrow and the light is blocked by the buildings height. Its the one street in the city with Georgian Stock that is just too narrow imo to carry the buildings well. Thats not because of modern developments either, it is a just a very narrow street relative to the likes of O’Connel street or William Street and is all the worse for it. I will be sorry to see the Quinns building go but thats about all..the rest no loss imo.

Entrance Ellen Street / Michael Street

Vkid, if Ellen Street suffers a lack of light due to the height of the existing buildings then surely this will deteriorate more as the new design is apparently higher than it is today. See image above and first image below.

The last image below is a fragment of the first design of Ellen Street. (Ignore that awful proposed entrance to it and Ignore the pedestrian bridge). At least one can imagine how these retained Georgian buildings and the cut-stone buildings could be integrated into the shopping centre. In my opinion if professionally done they would add a touch of real class / charm to the Opera Centre!

@vkid wrote:

Not my intention but i do think some level of compromise is needed and if any are to go(which in this country seems inevitable), then the buildings on Ellen Street would be my choice (Quinns/Vintage Club not included as already stated).

I just hate that street, georgian stock or not its horrible, and retaining those buildings is not going to make it any better imo. Even in the best Limerick Summer 😀 it is dark and grim and i really believe it is the width of the street that makes it so.

Again my opinion and sure we’re all entitled to that..even if we have no real influence on the outcome.

Go to Temple Bar in Dublin and see numerous pokey little lanes which are absolutely charming and full of Georgian buildings. The only reason Ellen Street looks dingy is that it’s got a tiny footpath, there are no standards for shopfronts, and it’s got trees growing out of its buildings. Clean it up a bit and widen the footpaths (or pedestrianize it) and it’ll look great.

This is just a rough sketch I slapped together just to give people an idea of the scale of the opera centre and the impact it would have on the streetscape if it was to proceed in its current form.

It’s pretty dramatic!

At long long last Limerick City Council have got their act together and launched a proper digital planning system, so you can now view the planning files online!:eek:

ePlan

Attached are some of the scanned CGI’s from the Opera Centre application.

#1. Ellen Street elevation

#2. Bank Place entrance & plaza area

#3. Rutland Street elevation

#4. Glazed entrance feature to replace existing Bruce House.

Just a couple of quick observations, That glazed infill building adjacent to the old town hall is much worse that I first thought and those modern shopfronts on the Georgian period buildings look absolutely ridiculous!

@Tuborg wrote:

Just a couple of quick observations, That glazed infill building adjacent to the old town hall is much worse that I first thought and those modern shopfronts on the Georgian period buildings look absolutely ridiculous!

Even allowing that the last three photo-montages come out of some CGI bargain basement and, it has to be said, they’re not doing the scheme any favours, surely the Opera Centre’s scale of flashy intervention is way too much, and would be far too dominant and therefore destructive of the coherence of the streetscape

I know that Lubeck example didn’t go down too well:rolleyes:, but here’s an indisputably top-notch example of how to do this kind of thing from Nurnberg.

OK it’s a museum (Neues Museum of Art & Design, opened 2001), not a shopping centre, but the principal of creating dramatic contemporary entrances to open up back-land sites while, at the same time, maintaining a respectful presence in the streetscape, should still apply.

Two or three well crafted re-workings of the neo-Georgian bits of Patrick St./Rutland St., incorporating dramatic new entrances, would surely be a lot more successful, and less destructive of the street’s character and coherence, than what’s been proposed.

@Tuborg wrote:

At long long last Limerick City Council have got their act together and launched a proper digital planning system, so you can now view the planning files online!:eek:

Indeed long overdue . . . . . hopefully it will produce more transparency for the general public.

Those modern shopfronts on the Georgian period buildings look absolutely ridiculous!

I’m very disappointed with them too, very sterile looking to be honest.

Limerick Leader updates . . . . . Opera Shopping Centre versus Coonagh Shopping Centre

Don’t think anyone’s mentioned this.

http://www.operacentre.ie

Has the floor plans.

@gunter wrote:

I know that Lubeck example didn’t go down too well:rolleyes:, but here’s an indisputably top-notch example of how to do this kind of thing from Nurnberg..

More on that here… lovely building in a nice little square
http://germany.archiseek.com/bavaria/nuremberg/design_museum.html

Attached is a revised CGI of Rutland Street. The developers now intend to retain the 19th Century shopfront of the former Glynn’s Butchers while also exposing and restoring the brickwork underneath the cement at first floor level.

Also, the doorway of the former Bruce Bank is to be incorporated into the remodelled shopfront of No.4 Rutland Street.

An elaborately carved limestone doorcase, dated 1806, displaying detailing of the Doric order. The quality of which is an indication of the grandeur of the original building to which this doorcase belongs. While the loss of the structure is regrettable the re-insertion of the doorcase is a pleasant feature on the streetscape. (NIAH)

Let me get this straight, Tuborg;

They’re planning to take the elaborate Venetian doorcase belonging to the former Bruce Bank and stick it on no. 4!

What makes them think that the original simple limestone doorcase to no. 4 (matching that on the butchers) isn’t hidden behind that pink and black plywood shopfront?

Would it not be obscene if they ended up hacking out the original, early Georgian, doorcase of no. 4 and then replaced it by the later Georgian doorcase from two door up! . . . and passing this off as ‘conservation gain’?

The ‘Bruce Bank’ door.

I’m have a hard time believing that the ‘Bruce Bank’ doorcase is as late as 1806, but leaving that aside, it’s precisely the early features, the simple door surrounds, the moulded cills and the window proportions, that make the Rutland Street and Bank Place houses so facinating.

The two surviving door surrounds on Pank Place and the matching door from around the corner at no. 1 Rutland Street.

Absolutey agree.
There are very few magnificent Georgian buildings in Limerick.
However, the lesser, quainter, simpler, cheaper buildings of the city are its very fabric – the canvas as it were. They set a tone of quiet sobriety and aspiration to an aesthetic completeness that is/ was very ambitious.

It would be a travesty to interfere with those buildings at Bank Place and Rutland st.
If you enter the city from the Clare (Killaloe) side – the city is pretty much the same as it was 200 years ago form Nicholas St. to Patrick st. (Sarsfield House, which I kinda like, aside) – St. Mary’s cathedral, the courthouse, the old courthouse, the Matthew bridge, bank place, the granary, the custom house etc.

The corner of Bank Place is like a portal or a gateway into Rutland, Patrick, O’Connell st.
As such, it is very, very important to the look and feel of Limerick as a Georgian city.

As well as all that, the height of all of the surrounding buildings is set by this row of buildings.

IF ABP ok’s their demolition – we’ll have to stage a Hume St-esque sit in.
😮

@vitruvius wrote:

The corner of Bank Place is like a portal or a gateway into Rutland, Patrick, O’Connell st.
As such, it is very, very important to the look and feel of Limerick as a Georgian city.

Very much impressed with that part of town myself, and we’re not the only ones, I came across this description by the American travel writer, J. Stirling Coyne, in his ”The Landscape and Antiquities of Ireland” published in 1842:

As a Dub, you’d think I’d get sick of Georgian terraces, but I have to say, the scale and relative completeness of Georgian Limerick has been a real eye-opener. For all it’s UNESCO World Heritage Site status, I’ve always found Edinburgh’s New Town (ok, apart from Charlotte Square) pretty provincial and disappointingly suburban, certainly now by comparison with Limerick. (If we can drag johnglas into this discussion I know he’ll be more than happy to expand on Edinburrrrr’s shortcomings;))

And again, as mentioned before, it’s the relative completeness of the streetscape and the legibility in being able to read the cronological progression from the simple box fanlights of Rutland Street to the full-blown semi-circular fanlights up at the Crescent, that particularly delights.

Rutland St. from Patrick St.

The two important neo-Georgians, either side of the angle are proposed to be replaced by a glass fronted retail window into the Opera Centre (posted by Tuborg above), as is the altered five storey this side of the old town hall. We can argue that the loss of chimney stacks, the crudeness of many of the shopfronts, and the unfortunate brickwork of the neo-Georgian in-fill schemes, have impaired the quality of the streetscape, but not fatally and not irreversibly.

The proposed ‘Opera Centre’ interventions seem to deliberately set out to interupt this rhythm! . . The larger breach, at the angle, is particularly damaging, IMO, in that it messes about with the angle in the streetscape and even appears to bridge over the footpath at the upper levels, introducing a third angle that crudely ’rounds’ this perfectly successful and subtle junction.

The second intervention takes out the (admittedly altered) five storey structure beside the old Town Hall and also engulfs the adjacent laneway. Again this seems to me to be an unecessarilly aggressive move when more subtle options appear to be available.

That councellor who strongly advocated the city centre merits of the ‘Opera Centre’, over it’s out-of-town shopping centre rival is absolutely right, but surely not at any price. Urban regeneration that can’t embrace conservation where it’s merited is not worth having. and we shouldn’t be talking about grudging, token, conservation either, but proper enthusiastic conservation.

xxxxxx

@gunter wrote:

The second intervention takes out the (admittedly altered) five storey structure beside the old Town Hall and also engulfs the adjacent laneway. Again this seems to me to be an unecessarilly aggressive move when more subtle options appear to be available.

Strange building that. I remember seeing a picture of the Town Hall and surrounding buildings from the late 19th or early 20th Century showing the above building with a stuccoed facade.

The only image I could find on the city museum site is attached below and dates from around 1930 or so. You can just about see that some features such as the decorative window surrounds have been removed so Im guessing it was around this time that the facade was demolished and replaced with the current rather odd arrangement?

Original Image

It’s not beyond the bounds of imagination to conserve these buildings AND to add infill behind.
Anybody on here knows the Trinity science block, which abuts Westland Row?
The houses in Westland Row are nothing to write home about, BUT they are a continuous, unbroken, unadulterated row. The interstitium is filled with a glazed atrium which has access at various levels to the thoroughly modern, functional buildings behind.
The architects took the opinion that the new buildings would have a finite life, hence when in 15/20 years they have to be rebuilt, they can be, without damaging the fabric of the original buildings on Westland Row.

It’d certainly make for a nice shopping experience than some glass and marble, air conditioned, security-guard patrolled shopping centre.

Limerick City Council should adopt an attitude of what we have, we hold.
Although, having just learned that they voted to delist the boat club, these morons could do anything.

@vitruvius wrote:

It’s not beyond the bounds of imagination to conserve these buildings AND to add infill behind.

It’d certainly make for a nice shopping experience (rather) than some glass and marble, air conditioned, security-guard patrolled shopping centre.

I agree with you there vitruvious, and I had thought that what you describe was the way that shopping centre design was heading. I thought we were moving away from enclosed malls into a new ‘sheltered street’ future.

Slightly askew plan of the Opera Centre, with the few retained buildings in brown.

The published street montages and the blurb (most recently in the cover article in ‘Built Environment’ Jan/Feb. 09) argue that the cull of historic fabric, and neo-Georgian in-fiil, is all for the purpose of creating a vibrant, innovative, contemporary, ‘Urban Mall’, but The lay-out and the published images of the interior look anything but innovative, or vibrant.

Published view across the Abbey River to Bank Place.

The internal ‘mall’ with the out-sized glazed entrance on the corner of Patrick St./Ellen St. doesn’t even run all the way through to Bank Place! The big glass box from the images of Bank Place isn’t the northern end of the ‘mall’ spilling out onto the ‘sculpture garden overlooking the river’, but instead is just a department store, or ‘anchor tennant’, that creates a cul-de-sac arrangement at the top of the ‘mall’. This would make the Opera Centre even more reminiscent of the miserable ‘Omni Centre’ in Santry, than the miserable ‘Crumlin Shopping Centre’ in Drimnagh!

Not only that, but the surprisingly heavy roof design of the truncated ‘mall’ looks like something out of a grim futuristic prison movie!

If you stand back and look at this scheme, the Opera Centre incorporates almost every bad idea from the last fifty years of urban regeneration:

On the positive side, this is a great location and a progressive regeneration proposal here would, without question, have the potential to massively reinforce the commercial heart of city centre and re-focus this centre up at the Abbey River, which is the linchpin of the historic city.

I see suggestions in the Limerick press that, though the Opera Centre seems to be on hold, the “derelict” buildings thereon should now be demolished, as it ruins the look of the city.

(Hollow laugh anyone?)

….and be replaced by a
(temporary) car park (are you laughing yet?)

Seemingly, some person was “afraid” to walk by them.

dc3:

Same old same old then? Absolutely outrageous, as if the existing measures weren’t unacceptable enough (the retailers should never have been moved out with so little concrete action in motion to redevelop the site).

@gunter wrote:

I agree with you there vitruvious, and I had thought that what you describe was the way that shopping centre design was heading. I thought we were moving away from enclosed malls into a new ‘sheltered street’ future.

The internal ‘mall’ with the out-sized glazed entrance on the corner of Patrick St./Ellen St. doesn’t even run all the way through to Bank Place! The big glass box from the images of Bank Place isn’t the northern end of the ‘mall’ spilling out onto the ‘sculpture garden overlooking the river’, but instead is just a department store, or ‘anchor tennant!

Gunter, I was slightly bemused to say the least when I had a look at the floor plans. Like you, I had assumed that the mall snaked its way through the complex from the Ellen Street entrance right through to the Bank Place “plaza area”.

The developers have been making lots of noise about how the opera centre will provide “an attractive new pedestrian thoroughfare accessed through “two landmark entrances”. What utter rubbish! The mall stops well short of Bank Place and ends as you say, at the entrance to the main anchor tenant. I cant believe the planners didnt ask for this to be amended!

This issue could easily be rectified by shifting the anchor unit down to the Ellen Street/Michael Street corner (seen in green below). They could then extend the mall through to Bank Place and split the space originally set aside for the anchor into smaller units.

Altered Floor plan

This is just another flaw in what has been an absolutely shambolic attempt to put together a city centre shopping complex. I had a read through the architectural heritage assessment and also the response to concerns about the demolition of period buildings.

I dont think I’ve ever read a more pathetic attempt to justify the loss of historic building stock. For those of you who havent seen it, it basically uses a whole pile of a waffle in a desperate attempt to beef up an extremely weak argument, that the loss of the Ellen Street Georgians is essential in creating a vibrant streetscape!:confused: This tripe was supposedly written by a professional planning consultant.:o

Probably the best of the lot though, was the fact that they used the example of Cruise’s Hotel as a precedent for the demolition of buildings of historical and architectural significance. I think everyone would agree, that was a horrible mistake!:(

I wrote some time ago that the proposed Opera Centre would not start for at least another two years, if ever!. The Limerick Post ‘front page’ clarifys this, see views from Tony Connolly, Patrick Street, business man and the confirmation he received from City Hall. This is a continuing disgrace. What is going on? I call on on business persons in the detailed region to bin their demands for rates that may be due, and demand City Council knock the lot as Mr Connolly suggested . Yes open the area as a car park, or just board the lot up.. He is correct in saying the buildings are dangerous. So few of us ‘LOOK UP’, I suggest no-one should walk under No.5 Ellen St, as a serious gale/wind will bring down a beam that is at the moment. being supported by nothing other than a sticking plaster. It will mark my words, surly cause serious injury. In the last months the Fire Brigade have blocked the Street twice, (Ellen St,) four in all, with hatchets trying to gain entry to the boarded up premises (all in the early hours of the morning) this was all due to reported suspected fires being started in the buildings.by ??? who were burning mounds of paper in the buildings. I looked for media info on this, but there was none! How can the developers/Council get away with such apathy? IT IS a continuing disgrace, but then again, there is after all only a handful of us that give a damm about the affect this disgrace is affecting this lovly city. I believe if one had to walk through the old Town Hall one would not believe the distruction caused by Vandals. Mr Connolly thank you for your highlighting your genuine concerns.

@Fairy wrote:

I wrote some time ago that the proposed Opera Centre would not start for at least another two years, if ever!. The Limerick Post ‘front page’ clarifys this, see views from Tony Connolly, Patrick Street, business man and the confirmation he received from City Hall. This is a continuing disgrace. What is going on? I call on on business persons in the detailed region to bin their demands for rates that may be due, and demand City Council knock the lot as Mr Connolly suggested . Yes open the area as a car park, or just board the lot up.. He is correct in saying the buildings are dangerous. So few of us ‘LOOK UP’, I suggest no-one should walk under No.5 Ellen St, as a serious gale/wind will bring down a beam that is at the moment. being supported by nothing other than a sticking plaster. It will mark my words, surly cause serious injury. In the last months the Fire Brigade have blocked the Street twice, (Ellen St,) four in all, with hatchets trying to gain entry to the boarded up premises (all in the early hours of the morning) this was all due to reported suspected fires being started in the buildings.by ??? who were burning mounds of paper in the buildings. I looked for media info on this, but there was none! How can the developers/Council get away with such apathy? IT IS a continuing disgrace, but then again, there is after all only a handful of us that give a damm about the affect this disgrace is affecting this lovly city. I believe if one had to walk through the old Town Hall one would not believe the distruction caused by Vandals. Mr Connolly thank you for your highlighting your genuine concerns.

What exactly do you want to knock down? All the Georgian buildings on Patrick Street, Rutland Street, and Ellen Street? And are you suggesting that a car park would not be an eyesore?

@shanekeane wrote:

What exactly do you want to knock down? All the Georgian buildings on Patrick Street, Rutland Street, and Ellen Street? And are you suggesting that a car park would not be an eyesore?

It is IMO evident that the Opera Cenre will not happen for some time – if ever. What will happen to the buildings during the long wait, they will deteriate beyond redemption or worse still fall down. No-one seems to care how businesses in the area are being effected by the total lack of concern these boarded up builidngs are having on them. Of course I don’t want to see another eyesore such as a car park, but nothing other than a miracle will save the buildings on Rutland St, Patrick St, Ellen St, if they are to be kept as ‘a shrine’ for the next X amount of years, the developers should be made clean them up and make them safe. They cannot be left to the elements. What kind of lunacy was it to run people out of their businesses when in a sense, The Opera Centre was only a picture on a paper. Someone has to be held accountable, aesthetically the streets are a mess and regardless to whether the Centre will happen to-day or 10 years from now we should not have to feel ashamed when visitors on their way to the Hunt or KJC stop to take their pictures of the houses with trees growing out of them..

Guys we need to come to a decision with this soon, it’s holding the city back for either side

The boarded up georgain buildings been left there for another two years isn’t going to help. The city does need a shopping mall. I’m not saying bulldose everything in it’s path. But this project is restoring some of the georgion. You can’t expect everything to be restored considering whats been built and also you have to take into consideration some of the buildings are beyond repair and it’s getting more depressing to look at this stage. Its not logical to save everything, there has to be some compromise, as the old will not match the design and layout of a modern shopping mall of this scale. Let’s be a little realistic.

Can I ask is there any postive changes since the new re submitted plan. The Entrance onto Patricks does look alot better than the first application. The shoppping mall layout is impressive and massive I have to say. Something I find hard to imagine Limerick city acutally having.

Every other city in Ireland has city centre shopping malls. And In fairness this one is by far more striking than the other’s.

@Tuborg wrote:

Cruse’s Hotel

There is nothing spectacular about that building for the love of god.

The Cannoks building was impressive. There is little arctectural merit in that building other than its wihite. There are no striking features or anything authenitc about it.

If crusie’s street was enhanced and turned into an all day market street with Cafes, hanging baskets and a few distinctive shops. I think Cruis’es street would work.

I think they need to focus on retailing on Williams streetBedford Row/O’Connells street/Henry street/Opera centrea areas

@dave123 wrote:

There is nothing spectacular about that building for the love of god.

The Cannoks building was impressive. There is little arctectural merit in that building other than its wihite. There are no striking features or anything authenitc about it.

No there was nothing authentic about a building that was a Limerick City landmark with 200 years of history behind it. We’re far better off with a legoland shopping street that has become obsolete after only 16 years!:rolleyes:

Do you ever get tired of talking shit?

Decision on Opera Centre is postponed (Limerick Leader)

A DECISION on the application for the €350m Opera Centre retail development in the city has now been postponed by two months.

An Bord Pleanala were due to come to a decision on the plans on Friday last, but have now set the date of April 9 next for a final decision of the revised plans.

Meanwhile, a three-day oral hearing on the expansion of the Crescent Shopping Centre will take place in County Hall from March 3.Its outcome will determine whether Marks & Spencer will open an outlet in the suburbs. Limerick City Council believes the final decision will be “crucial” for the development of the city centre, as the British chain have said they are hopeful of opening an outlet in the city centre also.

Until such time as a planning decision is made on both retail centres, a spokesperson for M&S said it couldn’t determin where the larger outlet will be located.

:rolleyes:

Another put back.

FFS.

The Opera Centre debacle takes yet another comical twist!:rolleyes:

Mayor lashes out at An Bord Pleanala over Opera Centre delay

By Anne Sheridan

THE Mayor of Limerick John Gilligan has accused An Bord Pleanala of being “totally out of touch with reality” after it emerged that a decision on the €350m Opera Centre will not be made for at least another four months. Just last week the board had set April 9 as the decision date for the biggest retail development in the Mid-West, and one of the longest running in local history.

But they have now expressed “serious concerns” with the plans, and requested further revised drawings for 15 “historic” buildings along Rutland Street, Michael Street, Ellen Street and Patrick Street.

Mayor of Limerick John Gilligan said it amounts to “economic nonsense” that An Bord Pleanala are taking so long to come to a decision on the development, while investors are waiting to pump millions of euro into the city.

“I find it very disconcerting. The whole legislation has to change. Limerick City Council has to make a decision on a development within eight weeks, and An Bord Pleanala can sit on it for six, eight or twelve months. I think they’re totally out of touch with reality and I’ve just lost faith in them,” said the Mayor.

Limerick City Council is expected to lose in the region of €1million in rates over the next three years while dozens of retail units are left vacant.

But the developers have said once the centre is fully operational – which could be three years away if planning is granted – the losses in rates will be recouped in one year.

A spokesperson for An Bord Pleanala confirmed to the Limerick Leader that it now appears that a decision may not be made until June or July.

A further revision of the plans must be submitted by May 4, and if they are not submitted by that date the Bord can dismiss the appeal or determine an outcome without further notice.

I think its a shocking indictment of the shoddy standards in the planning office at City Hall that the board are now looking for more detailed plans. The city planners of course were only too happy to allow this development go through unaltered, with barely any consideration given to the irreparable damage that would be inflicted upon historic building stock!:rolleyes:

I wouldn’t exactly have much sympathy for the loss of rates that the council are suffering, I’d be far more concerned about the battering the city centre’s image is taking as a result of the vast swathe of neglected, boarded up buildings!

Of course if the council had their priorities right, they wouldn’t have allowed this ridiculous situation to develop where tenants were ordered to vacate their premises years before any development took place!:mad:

@Tuborg wrote:

The Opera Centre debacle takes yet another comical twist!:rolleyes:

I think its a shocking indictment of the shoddy standards in the planning office at City Hall that the board are now looking for more detailed plans. The city planners of course were only too happy to allow this development go through unaltered, with barely any consideration given to the irreparable damage that would be inflicted upon historic building stock!:rolleyes:

I wouldn’t exactly have much sympathy for the loss of rates that the council are suffering, I’d be far more concerned about the battering the city centre’s image is taking as a result of the vast swathe of neglected, boarded up buildings!

Of course if the council had their priorities right, they wouldn’t have allowed this ridiculous situation to develop where tenants were ordered to vacate their premises years before any development took place!:mad:

My sentiments exactly. Madness to dispose/vacate of all the buildings on the premise of ‘something on paper’ ( read previous post) .Greedy people; now all business will/are suffering (including A.Q.) dare I even mention those on Rutland St, Patrick St, Ellen St etc Really, is this a joke,? ABP are playing a game! Is there anyone out there with an answer /brains to accommodate all the needs? I don’t think so, and this forum is now just a ‘lip service’ for those who just wish to nose around (including most of all the insiders).

Can we win. Retain.Regain = don’t think so.

/////////////////

Douglas Wallace Architects goes into liquidation

That’s not helpful . . . . 🙁

@CologneMike wrote:

Douglas Wallace Architects goes into liquidation

That’s not helpful . . . . 🙁

I think this project is cursed, its just destined never to happen!

Who’s going to take care of the inevitable design tweaks that the ABP report is going to order?

Anyway, heres another line on the Opera Centre. I suppose we shouldn’t really be surprised!:rolleyes:

Anglo owns 50% stake in stalled Limerick scheme (Sunday Business Post)

By Richard Curran

Anglo Irish Bank has emerged as a 50 per cent shareholder in a stalled €350million shopping centre development in Limerick city centre. Anglo acquired the stake in Regeneration Developments, the company behind the proposed Opera Centre in Limerick.

Accounts recently filed for the company show that, at the end of 2007, it had bank borrowings of €81million,payable within one year.

The loans were given by Bank of Ireland, and Anglo was not a banker to the project.

Anglo declined to say how much it paid for the stake. The three property developers behind the project, who are also clients of Anglo, are David Courtney, Jerry O’Reilly and Terry Sweeney.

Accounts for Regeneration Developments show the company’s borrowings were secured on properties on the site, options on further properties and personal guarantees from the three, totalling €50 million.

The company accounts valued the site and development for the Limerick centre at €89 million at the end of 2007. It had further investments valued at €19.6 million, but creditors falling due within one year totalling €109million.

The auditors did not qualify the accounts but drew attention to the carrying value of the company’s investments, saying the economic outlook and property downturn ‘‘creates an uncertainty about the appropriateness of the carrying value of the investment and stock’’.

Even valuing total assets at €106 million, the directors said that the company had net current liabilities of €19.6 million and ‘‘limited income’’ at the end of December 2007. Anglo Irish acquired its stake in the venture on December 21, 2007.

Industry sources said that the now nationalised bank acquired its share with a view to selling it on to private clients, but that never happened.

The project, which would have been the biggest shopping development in the mid-west, was granted planning permission last September, but is awaiting the outcome of a Bord Pleanála decision. It had the full backing of Limerick City Council but, in the current environment, it seems highly unlikely the project will go ahead.

Courtney, Sweeney and O’Reilly bought the venture from a group of developers in February 2007 and sold half of it to Anglo at the end of that year. None of the directors could be contacted for comment, and Anglo Irish declined to answer any queries other than to confirm its 50 per cent shareholding.

Well its the people of Limericks fault, for leaving it in the balance. The second reapplication was the second chance. It was improved drastically. Your not going to get a colluseam. But I know you all have high standards. But you have to remember Limerick needs a central shopping hub. Right now its just leff the way it is. I dont know why kind of a shopping mall that would retain every single old building that is just not realistic. Ive said this before and now I’m saying it again.

May you all learn.

If you werent happy with the design, I didnt see any of you put up your money to improve this run down part of town.

Developers say Opera Centre will go ahead (Limerick Leader)

By Anne Sheridan

THE developers behind the €350m Opera Centre have said the fact that Anglo Irish Bank has a 50 per cent share in the project is “irrelevant” as to whether it goes ahead.

A spokesperson for the company added that claims that the project may not get off the ground due to the financial backing of the troubled, nationalised bank is a “red herring.”

It has emerged that Anglo Irish Bank acquired its stake in the venture on December 2007, with a view to selling it on to private clients, but that never happened.

The planning application is currently before An Bord Pleanala for a second time, and Regeneration Developments, the company behind the project, are hopeful of a positive outcome in June.

“Regeneration Developments want the project to go ahead and are continuing to work on it.

“They purchased the project from the original developers with a view to building it. It will be built if we get planning, get anchor tenants and other major tenants, and if a bank – it doesn’t have to be an Irish bank – is prepared to fund the commercial developments,” said a spokesperson for the company.

Minister for Defence, Willie O’Dea, said he was “quite perturbed” to learn of the bank’s stake in the retail development, which is expected to be “Limerick’s shopping mecca” pending planning permission.

“It’s certainly a problem. I’d prefer if they didn’t own the shares. It came as a complete surprise. I never knew they were so immersed in the property game, 😉 but I wouldn’t despair completely,” said Minister O’Dea.

He said the Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan is expected to set up an interim National Assets Management Agency, prior to receiving full legislation, and they may become involved with the development in Limerick. “They will certainly try to make that workable. So there is light at the end of the tunnel,” he added.

Minister O’Dea added that he hopes that project will get the go-ahead in the coming months. “It’s a fabulous project and the place looks terrible at the moment. Dereliction is creeping in.”

If the plans receive permission, the Mid-West’s largest retail centre is expected to create 275 jobs during the construction phase and another 800 full and part time jobs will be created once the centre is open and trading.

A decision on the revised plans is expected next month, after Regeneration Developments submitted revised drawings for the project two weeks ago.

An exact decision date has not been confirmed by An Bord Pleanala, but those involved in the project expect that it will be made in the summer months.

@dave123 wrote:

Well its the people of Limericks fault, for leaving it in the balance. The second reapplication was the second chance. It was improved drastically. Your not going to get a colluseam. But I know you all have high standards. But you have to remember Limerick needs a central shopping hub. Right now its just leff the way it is. I dont know why kind of a shopping mall that would retain every single old building that is just not realistic. Ive said this before and now I’m saying it again.

May you all learn.

If you werent happy with the design, I didnt see any of you put up your money to improve this run down part of town.

You’re talking absolute nonsense as per usual!

The “people of Limerick” who had the intelligence to see beyond a couple of glossy CGI’s:rolleyes:, to speak out against the substandard design and lodge an appeal, should be applauded for actually caring about their city. Its thanks to them that we’ve avoided another enormous wound being inflicted upon the city centre!

@CologneMike wrote:

Developers say Opera Centre will go ahead (Limerick Leader)

A decision on the revised plans is expected next month, after Regeneration Developments submitted revised drawings for the project two weeks ago.

Id love to know what these “revised drawings” contain! Realistically though, this project needs a pretty comprehensive redesign, theres simply too many shortcomings in the current proposal!

@Tuborg wrote:

Id love to know what these “revised drawings” contain! Realistically though, this project needs a pretty comprehensive redesign, theres simply too many shortcomings in the current proposal!

Personally I would expect the “same conditions” to be re-applied as in the first approval and similar protective conditions for the Quin building and the former Town Hall.

The Bank Place in layout is nothing but a throw back to the days where the city showed it’s arse to the river.

The entrance / exit for deliveries must be moved to Michael Street (i.e. Former Work Space Building).

Maybe they could instead move the entrance / exit for cars to the opposite side of Michael Street and access to the underground car park per tunnel.

@CologneMike wrote:

Personally I would expect the “same conditions” to be re-applied as in the first approval and similar protective conditions for the Quin building and the former Town Hall.

The Bank Place in layout is nothing but a throw back to the days where the city showed it’s arse to the river.

The entrance / exit for deliveries must be moved to Michael Street (i.e. Former Work Space Building).

Maybe they could instead move the entrance / exit for cars to the opposite side of Michael Street and access to the underground car park per tunnel.

Regeneration Developments would have us believe that Bank Place will be transformed into some sort of idyllic plaza area when in reality there will be a service road ploughing through it!

The internal configuration of the complex will also have to be improved. You simply cant have one of the “landmark entrances” opening onto some department store!

I believe the developers argument against using Michael Street for deliveries etc is that it is too narrow for large trucks and access to the basement via a ramp would be difficult.

Realistically though, if a proper delivery strategy could be agreed, traffic circulation on Michael Street could be managed effectively?

I also hope ABP lays down strict conditions in relation to the Granary as the proposed intervention seems pretty unsympathetic to me anyway!

Attached; Proposed Michael Street elevation.

If I were to be honest I’d have to admit that I hope that this project flounders. What is planned is possibly the worst imaginable. It would, if realised, add another zombie block of faceless dead streetscape to the core of Limerick just as Arthur’s Quay and Sarsfield Dunne’s have. Sorry, I can’t find a redeeming feature in those plans.

@CologneMike wrote:

A decision on the revised plans is expected next month, after Regeneration Developments submitted revised drawings for the project two weeks ago.

Is there any way of finding out what these revised drawings show, is it a comprehensive re-design, or just a bit of tinkering around?

@Tuborg wrote:

I also hope ABP lays down strict conditions in relation to the Granary as the proposed intervention seems pretty unsympathetic to me anyway!

Completely agree with Tuborg, that was one of the more disappointing aspects of the proposal. The opportunity to integrate the retained street-front buildings on the perimeter of the block into the internal ‘streetscape’ / circulation routes of the shopping centre, as has been done to great effect elsewhere, was completely missed. This seems particularly unfortunate in the case of the Granary building.

@Tuborg wrote:

Id love to know what these “revised drawings” contain!

Again, there must be some way of finding this out, is there no public entitlement to see such a submission, even if there’s no ABP mechanism for further commenting on it?

Bank Place ~ Granary ~ Truck Service Yard Entrance

I would imagine the Architects got the remit from Regeneration Ltd. (Developer) to maximise floor space, car parking space etc, etc. Especially as the underground car parking decks (orange) and the truck service yard (blue) affect four floor levels.

But the solution to place the underground delivery entrance in front of the main opening of the Granary Warehouse is a very poor one.

In my opinion . . . .

• It disfigures the front façade of the Granary on Bank Place.
• It cuts off access to main entrance to the Granary Building.
• It would have a negative effect on Bank Place as a Plaza.
• Bank Place would have a “rear building” feel to it.
• It would discourage footfall developing here.

In my opinion by moving the delivery entrance next to the underground car park entrance on Michael Street would be a far better solution.

It is amazing that issues like the Granary are not raised by the city councillors into the public domain. 🙁

There’s a further information notice in on this in the Irish Times today. Seems a number of the buildings scheduled for demolition will be retained, or at least have their facades retained. Somebody more familiar with Limerick than I am will probably be able to say more on it.

@jdivision wrote:

There’s a further information notice in on this in the Irish Times today.

Well spotted jdivision.

On the face of it, this looks like a huge step in the right direction.

Thanks for the scan gunter, I didnt see the Times today and couldn’t find it online either.

It looks like Regeneration Developments have finally come to their senses anyway. They’ve amended much of the elements we’ve been banging on about here for ages! Its pretty obvious now that ABP let it be known that the project wouldn’t have had much chance of proceeding in its previous form!

Looking at the details, the retention of additional buildings on Rutland Street/Patrick Street along with the salvation of Ellen Street, are massive improvements. The relocation of the service entrance from Bank Place to Michael Street is also a hugely positive move!

Good stuff. God its refreshing to see the planning system have a positive impact on a development.

@Tuborg wrote:

. . . Its pretty obvious now that ABP let it be known that the project wouldn’t have had much chance of proceeding in its previous form!

You sometimes suspect that this is what happens, but unless the Bord actually write to the applicants seeking specific further information, I thought they were precluded from giving tips and pointers!

This could be a genuine change of heart on the part of the developers, or more likely, a bit of belated sound advice from their architects (who are the architects now, do we know? wasn’t it originally Douglas Wallace?).

Anyway, top marks to whoever is responsible and, as reddy said, it’s nice to see the system working once in a while . . . and look! the sun has come out:)

Good news but I hope something is done soon – the buildings are getting worse by the week! Mind you they aren’t the only ones, even reasonably cleaned up looking Georgian buildings on the recently regenerated Thomas St. have ever-larger plants growing out of the brickwork – just noticed it recently. Surely even weedkiller might help (or would it eat away at the building?)

@gunter wrote:

You sometimes suspect that this is what happens, but unless the Bord actually write to the applicants seeking specific further information, I thought they were precluded from giving tips and pointers!

This could be a genuine change of heart on the part of the developers, or more likely, a bit of belated sound advice from their architects (who are the architects now, do we know? wasn’t it originally Douglas Wallace?).

Apparently the board expressed “serious concerns” about the project a couple of months back and requested “revised drawings”. Presumably this related to the loss of Georgian building stock and probably issues with the Granary aswell.

Its a joke that we cant find out for sure what ABP requested or the exact nature of the revisions. All this information should be available on their website but unfortunately its fairly hopeless!

Finally this is great stuff. When are they going to start building it. Could it be autumn. Its amazing how far it has come. If you think about it. What other Shopping centre’s could you compare this development to in this country. There is no shopping centre in Ireland that manages to to retain most of the old into the new in such an unique way. I think this is going to be very successful. Limerick will become a magnet for shoppers. This will bring much needed life into the heart of the city once again. this will attract other retailers to locate in the city rather than on the doughnut edges.

I’m proud that everyone is working together now, and it seems that people are communicating in the right way as we can now see.

@dave123 wrote:

What other Shopping centre’s could you compare this development to in this country. There is no shopping centre in Ireland that manages to to retain most of the old into the new in such an unique way.

I still think it’s just like a more modern and larger scale version of Arthur’s Quay. After all that development surrounds some old streetfront too.

I mean even the location means it’s very little differentiation in my mind – I can’t see it adding much more to the city either.

@KeepAnEyeOnBob wrote:

I still think it’s just like a more modern and larger scale version of Arthur’s Quay. . . I can’t see it adding much more to the city either.

Surely it much more important than that!

The whole dilemma with this scheme was that people, who care about reinforcing the city centre, want to see uses like this located where they belong – in the city centre, but not at any cost, and certainly not at the cost of demolishing almost everything in sight.

The breakthrough with this revised scheme (as described in the text anyway) is that they appear to have found a way to accommodate, both a fancy new shopping centre, and a regeneration of the existing building stock, in the one scheme.

OK, there might still be a bit too much ‘facade retention’ as opposed to ‘building conservation’ in it and it could all turn into a Limerick version of Marks & Spencers’ Duke St. re-make, but it’s still a dramatic advance on what it was going to be.

Had the scheme been refused, due the carnage of historic structures and streetscapes, it would have reinforced the false perception that mega development, like fancy new shopping centres, are incompatible with city centre locations, and incompatible with conservation!

That could have been almost as devastating an outcome as permitting the development and bulldozing the block!

We don’t often get good news, can we not just enjoy it for a few days?

@dave123 wrote:

What other Shopping centre’s could you compare this development to in this country. e.

The only one that is slightly similar to me is The Eyre Square s.c in Galway…although lets hope it turns out better than that but the idea is similar. Couple of anchor tenants, lots of smaller units etc..

@vkid wrote:

The only one that is slightly similar to me is The Eyre Square s.c in Galway…although lets hope it turns out better than that but the idea is similar. Couple of anchor tenants, lots of smaller units etc..

Opera centre is like two or three times bigger and retains far more older architeture into the new Shopping mall. I’m not to sure if Eyre sq shopping centre retains this factor. Also I much prefer these type of inner city malls than out of town malls imo.

I’m not a shopper as such, but its seems more logical to have a shopping heart in the centre of the city rather than sprawling warehouses around the city, leaving the city like a ghostown.

@dave123 wrote:

Opera centre is like two or three times bigger and retains far more older architeture into the new Shopping mall. I’m not to sure if Eyre sq shopping centre retains this factor. Also I much prefer these type of inner city malls than out of town malls imo.

I’m not a shopper as such, but its seems more logical to have a shopping heart in the centre of the city rather than sprawling warehouses around the city, leaving the city like a ghostown.

I don’t think you’re going to bring people into the city to go to a shopping centre, when there are already shopping centre all over the outskirts. That’s the big problem here, it’s being seen as a lynchpin of Limerick’s future success. But in order to be truly successful and vibrant, Limerick has to give people what they can’t get anywhere else. Yet the Crescent shopping centre opens on Thursday and Friday nights, and on Sundays which are among the busiest times for shopping, while the city becomes a ghost town.

Limerick needs to develop particular city centre attractions to thrive – like quality eateries, pubs, specialist shops, and of course extra-curricular activities. The very least it needs for starters is a cinema, which being in proximity to many pubs and restaurants would provide a unique appeal. And then it needs to expand opening hours. I think there’s nothing that would increase the buzz than changing general opening hours to 12pm-9pm every day, if not later. You’d be amazed how many people there are who’d like to be able to go to a coffee shop at 11pm.

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

I don’t think you’re going to bring people into the city to go to a shopping centre, when there are already shopping centre all over the outskirts. That’s the big problem here, it’s being seen as a lynchpin of Limerick’s future success. But in order to be truly successful and vibrant, Limerick has to give people what they can’t get anywhere else. Yet the Crescent shopping centre opens on Thursday and Friday nights, and on Sundays which are among the busiest times for shopping, while the city becomes a ghost town.

Limerick needs to develop particular city centre attractions to thrive – like quality eateries, pubs, specialist shops, and of course extra-curricular activities. The very least it needs for starters is a cinema, which being in proximity to many pubs and restaurants would provide a unique appeal. And then it needs to expand opening hours. I think there’s nothing that would increase the buzz than changing general opening hours to 12pm-9pm every day, if not later. You’d be amazed how many people there are who’d like to be able to go to a coffee shop at 11pm.

But the Opera will work like what Stephens green does for Dublin. It will pull footfall, and tourist no matter what day of the week. Also since I’m in the catchment of Limerick, I would rather use the Opera centre than use the sprawlling retaril houses. Because

[

• Pedestiran friendly

• all shoips under one roof
• underground car parking
• citry centre amenties close by
• restaurants close by
• greater variety of shops
• and its gives me the opportunity to shop more out of the city like going to other shops closeby

Ok, well that’s a point. But I think you could further stress its uniqueness by making it a less boring plan. We have all these Georgian buildings and historic laneways and the like; wouldn’t it be a lot better if they did a Powerscourt kind of thing where you stress the historical fabric, and you have a series of covered laneways and arcades giving the whole scheme a sense of being a little more upmarket?

I actually think one of the most important things they could do in Limerick to bring people into the city is to focus on aesthetic issues. I thought the city development plan was a great vision. Look how many more people frequent Thomas Street and Bedford Row now. If they focused on details like pavement, appropriate windows, lampposts, wires on buildings, and shopfronts, then Limerick could have a sense of quaintness which would draw people in. I mean it almost makes me cry to compare the potential of William Street with its reality. If you dealt with all the above issues on this street, you could have a completely unique and beautiful Georgian commercial street that people would specifically come to Limerick to visit.

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

I actually think one of the most important things they could do in Limerick to bring people into the city is to focus on aesthetic issues. I thought the city development plan was a great vision. Look how many more people frequent Thomas Street and Bedford Row now. If they focused on details like pavement, appropriate windows, lampposts, wires on buildings, and shopfronts, then Limerick could have a sense of quaintness which would draw people in. I mean it almost makes me cry to compare the potential of William Street with its reality. If you dealt with all the above issues on this street, you could have a completely unique and beautiful Georgian commercial street that people would specifically come to Limerick to visit.

Politically unpopular, but I would suggest the most significant factor in Thomas St./Bedford Row isn’t the nice paving, lighting, trees or new developments – it’s scrapping traffic and on-street parking.

@KeepAnEyeOnBob wrote:

Politically unpopular, but I would suggest the most significant factor in Thomas St./Bedford Row isn’t the nice paving, lighting, trees or new developments – it’s scrapping traffic and on-street parking.

Well it’s a combination. Catherine Street still has traffic but is equally a place that makes you want to stroll upon it. If I had it my way, the whole centre would be pedestrianised

While I also would prefer to see a Powerscourt Centre or IFI/Temple Bar Square (for all its faults) type of development here, it has to be acknowledged that this is a big advance on what was being proposed previously (which you could say would not be hard). It certainly is not perfect but the restoration and preservation of such a large number of historic buildings and facades and more importantly ensuring that a significant proportion of units are street facing rather than inward facing is a huge improvement.

@jimg wrote:

While I also would prefer to see a Powerscourt Centre or IFI/Temple Bar Square (for all its faults) type of development here, it has to be acknowledged that this is a big advance on what was being proposed previously (which you could say would not be hard). It certainly is not perfect but the restoration and preservation of such a large number of historic buildings and facades and more importantly ensuring that a significant proportion of units are street facing rather than inward facing is a huge improvement.

Well I would concur with that. But if we went with that, underground carparking and the upper floors would be removed.

I personally would want more shops onto Patrick street have shop frontage and frontal street access, to create more footfall on the street. To give the street a more natural pedestrian enironment. I fear that Patrick street/Rutland street will become dead. Arthurs quay had this problem too.As does many shopping malls in cities. Where the only access was the mall entrance, leaving the Patrick street side just dreary and flat walled for most of its block. It needs to be taking into valid consideration.

Also another aspect they could do instead of going for the usual modern glazed slabbing on parvements. Is they could blend the new into the old streetways. like put old type lanerns in the mall rather than the usual monotone lights. etc. Old pictures of the city along most of its corridors. All these could bring all the important symbolism of what the Opera centre could be? Just an idea.

The centre of the shopping mall, should be more cafe oreintated rather than the usual Macca’s/Burger King outlets.

Overall I’m giving this a 8/10. The little ideas can be incoporated with no extra cost to money:)

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

Well it’s a combination. Catherine Street still has traffic but is equally a place that makes you want to stroll upon it. If I had it my way, the whole centre would be pedestrianised

Down to one lane of one-way traffic, with removal of onstreet parking. I.e. the footpath space has far more than doubled. I would again suggest this is one of the most significant factors in increasing *footfall* in the area.

I think the likes of O’Connell St./Patrick St./William St. etc. even without extravagant pedestrianisation they would be better places for pedestrians just by swapping the on-street parking for pedestrian space. On-street parking seems a gross waste of space.

Even with the deadness that will result from Patrick St. being sandwiched between Arthur’s Quay and Opera Centre – I think people would walk up it more if they had all the space that’s currently used for on-street parking. If you can’t appreciate how hemmed in, cramped and unaccommodated that pedestrians are in the city centre at present – just try walking around the non-modified parts with a buggy (or indeed as a group of people). Patrick St. only has two lanes of traffic – if the on-street parking was removed, the majority of the road space would be available for pedestrians. Even just filling it in with concrete – no remodelling, would suddenly “semi-pedestrianise” the street (the same goes for other city centre streets).

I do not think a shopping centre type development is best for the city centre – I think it’s just trying to avoid having to do any real work in improving the city centre and getting some developers to have a field day and provide an *alternative* to the city centre despite being physically located in it (and only just in the case of Opera Centre – Bank Place end is quite some way away from the real centre, say William St./O’Connell St. crossroad, with Roches St. being the opposite fringe of the shopping area – about as far away from centre as just Ellen St.).

An Bord Pleanála (PL30 .231180) Grant permission with revised conditions

LIMERICK OPERA CENTRE GETS GREEN LIGHT (live95fm)

An Bord Pleanala have approved planning for the €350 million Limerick Opera Centre.

The seven hundred and fifty thousand square foot development is the largest ever planned for the city and will include a retail and restaurant complex as well as three floors of underground car parking.

Marks and Spencers are reportedly interested in becoming tenants in the new building which will take around 3 years to complete.

Up to 500 jobs could be created in the construction phase and 1,000 fulltime jobs after it is completed.

Welcoming An Bord Pleanala’s decision to grant planning permission, the Project Manager of Regeneration Developments Limited, Pat Keogh, says they can now enter into talks with potential retailers.

MAYOR CALLS FOR WORK ON LIMERICK OPERA CENTRE TO BEGIN QUICKLY (live95fm)

The Mayor of Limerick is urging the developers behind Limerick’s €350 million Opera Centre to start work on the project as soon as possible.

An Bord Pleanala have granted planning permission for the much anticipated retail centre which is expected to draw shoppers back into the city.

The development will also provide a jobs boost for the city with around 500 people expected to be employed during the construction phase and a further 1,000 jobs will be created on it’s completion.

Regeneration Developments Limited say they will be reviewing a number of conditions attached to the planning permission and are not at this stage ready to provide a date for the beginning of construction which will take about 3 years to complete.

Mayor of Limerick Councillor Kevin Kiely says the Opera Centre – which will be the largest retail centre in the Mid West – is crucial for the future of the city.

Mayor Kiely says the issue of a Opera Centre has been ongoing for three years and the awarding of planning permission is great news for Limerick.

So we finally have a decision.

I’ve only had a quick scan through it but its interesting to note that a decision was made on the original (hideous) application on the 4th of February and the inspector recommended a refusal.

If the case was decided, why wasn’t this made public at the time? Did the Bord go back to the applicants and request revised plans or did the applicants themselves decide to submit the new proposals? Whatever happened, these revisions were submitted on May 1st and were subsequently signed off on July 17th.

Have ABP gone about their business in a rather strange manner here or are they perfectly within their rights?

@Tuborg wrote:

Have ABP gone about their business in a rather strange manner here or are they perfectly within their rights?

Those are murky waters to be casting a fishing hook into Tuborg!

Probably better just to thank Christ somebody sorted this all out. The (17) conditions look pretty comprehensive to me, . . . . of course it does all hinge on what exactly was submitted on 1 May.

The wording of that condition no. 2 would seem to imply that the applicants submitted several versions of some aspects of the development adopting a ”take your pick” approach. Maybe it could be said that such an approach is lacking in design conviction, but hell, if it works, as it seems to have done here, I don’t know I think I’d be inclined to overlook that 🙂

In the same Order on page 1 the “PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT“ is described in detail and somewhere on page 2 after a semi-colon it thankfully switches away from demolition to more favourable reading.

However I will take the following as binding.

all associated site development works and provision of services, as amended by the revised public notice received by An Bord Pleanála on the 10th day of June, 2009 as follows:

– 4 and 5 Rutland Street will be conserved and repaired and presented as an integrated single shop entity trading onto Rutland Street, independent of the proposed Shopping Centre; Numbers 8 and 9 Rutland Street will be conserved and repaired and ground floor plans have been revised to reflect the existing shop fronts, with two main doorways;

the front facades of number 1, 2 and 3 Patrick Street are to be conserved and repaired and the ground floor layout has been revised to reflect the existing shopfronts trading onto Patrick Street; number 5 Patrick Street will be retained as an integral unit, which is to be conserved and repaired, with consequential adjustments to the main entrance to the Mall on the junction of Patrick Street and Ellen Street;

the front facades of numbers 4, 5 and 6 Ellen Street shall be conserved and repaired and integrated into the new build at ground floor level, so as to have an active streetfront trading as one unit; numbers 7 and 8 Ellen Street will be conserved and repaired and accessed off the street and redeveloped as an integrated single shop unit trading to Ellen Street at Ground floor level with the potential to allow these units to also trade onto the internal mall at ground floor; number 9 Ellen Street will be conserved and repaired and used as a pub restaurant on 3 levels accessed from Ellen Street with revisions proposed to the rear part within the building, with the existing footprint and main rear gable wall retained and the original construction features displayed within the building, which will be used for retail purposes. Basements that exist under the rear part of the building will be removed and the building will be underpinned during construction to accommodate the provision of car parking below; Ellen Street will remain unchanged in overall dimensions and will be retained in its existing configuration relating to building line. The footpath on the north side will be widened (circa 4 metres) with the carriageway reduced to 6 metres leaving an unaltered footpath on the southern side.

The building line will be set back at the location of Glover’s Lane with access to a department store and signage acknowledging the previous existence of the laneway.

Access for service vehicles will be relocated to a point on Michael Street to the south of the Granary building, with a combined car and truck access with traffic segregated after entry.

The public realm at Bank Place has been redesigned to take account of the relocation of the service access to Michael Street. On Bank Place, the façade of the proposed new building, has been redesigned and articulated to distinguish between the fronts of the new and existing buildings to each side (i.e. the Granary and Abbey House).

The proposed development has been redesigned to significantly increase the visual separation along the full length of the western façade of the Granary with glazed ventilated roof over the void including provision for a high level bridge link from the centre to the Granary.

@gunter wrote:

Those are murky waters to be casting a fishing hook into Tuborg!

Probably better just to thank Christ somebody sorted this all out. The (17) conditions look pretty comprehensive to me, . . . . of course it does all hinge on what exactly was submitted on 1 May.

Yeah I’d probably be opening up a serious can of worms there alright. If anything, the mystery surrounding the final decision perfectly encapsulates the uncertainly that has plagued this project since 2005. Its probably a fitting finale really!

Realistically we’ve got as acceptable an outcome as we could have hoped for and Im certainly glad that a decision has finally been made!

CONDITIONS

2. The architectural treatment at the junction of Glover’s Lane with Patrick
Street shall be as indicated in the design shown on Douglas Wallace sketch
drawing “Option 1” received by An Bord Pleanála on the 1st May 2009.
Board Direction
Reason: To reflect the historic street pattern of the area.

The wording of that condition no. 2 would seem to imply that the applicants submitted several versions of some aspects of the development adopting a ”take your pick” approach. Maybe it could be said that such an approach is lacking in design conviction, but hell, if it works, as it seems to have done here, I don’t know I think I’d be inclined to overlook that 🙂

I wonder what “Option 1” for Glover’s Lane is? This is the laneway that separates Rutland Street and Patrick Street. The initial glazed infill solution was pretty dismal, I presume we’ll now see a setback of any new building here?

@Tuborg wrote:

I wonder what “Option 1” for Glover’s Lane is? This is the laneway that separates Rutland Street and Patrick Street. The initial glazed infill solution was pretty dismal, I presume we’ll now see a setback of any new building here?

@CologneMike wrote:

The building line will be set back at the location of Glover’s Lane with access to a department store and signage acknowledging the previous existence of the laneway.

Fair enough!:)

Double blow for Limerick retail projects (Limerick Leader)

By Petula Martyn

MARKS and Spencer will not be the anchor tenant at the Opera Centre after dropping plans to open a store at the city-centre development, according to weekend media reports.
And Limerick has been dealt a further blow with confirmation that construction work on the Parkway Valley project on Dublin Road will not recommence until 2011 at the earliest.

Marks & Spencer had been in discussions to acquire one anchor store in Limerick after the British chain was refused planning at the Crescent Shopping Centre which was their preferred location.

The €350 million Opera Centre is owned by developers Jerry O’Reilly, David Courtney and Terry Sweeney, and Anglo Irish Bank has a 50 per cent share in the development. The developers behind the Opera Centre had been seeking to sign 40 retailers to the retail centre over the next two years, and it was hoped that Marks & Spencer, as an anchor tenant, would have been a big draw for other retailers.

The shopping centre on Patrick Street was granted planning permission for a second occasion by An Bord Pleanala in July.

It is not known if the decision by Marks & Spencer to withdraw their interest in the Opera Centre will affect the opening of the shopping centre which is expected to be built by 2012/13.

This story was first carried in yesterday’s Sunday Tribune. I don’t know how reliable these “retail sources” are but if true it would be a pretty odd decision given that the opera centre would seem to be tailor made for Marks & Spencer.

I know that the Crescent shopping centre had to offer fairly generous concessions to get M&S to commit to the planned store there. Maybe those behind the Opera Centre need to sweet talk Marks & Spencer a bit more!

The failure to secure a big name anchor would obviously raise further doubts over the future of this project!

Anglo trio resign from Limerick shopping centre firm (Sunday Business Post)

04 October 2009 By Richard Curran

Three Anglo Irish Bank representatives have resigned as directors of a company behind a proposed €350 million shopping centre development in the centre of Limerick city.

Gerard Davis, Peter Butler and Brendan Farrell stepped down as directors of Regeneration Developments, the company behind the proposed Opera Centre project.

Anglo Irish Bank acquired a 50 per cent stake in the venture in December 2007 for an undisclosed sum. The nationalised bank is not the banker to the project.

The arrival of Anglo Irish as a shareholder came shortly after Dublin-based developers Joe O’Reilly, Terry Sweeney and David Courtney took over the other 50 per cent stake. All three are directors of Regeneration Developments.

Last month, the three Anglo directors resigned despite the bank still retaining a 50 per cent interest in the stalled venture, leaving it with no representation on the board.

Accounts filed for the company show that, at the end of 2007, loans to the firm from shareholders totalled €25 million.

These do not appear to have come from Courtney, Sweeney and O’Reilly, because they are directors and there were no outstanding directors’ loans. The €25 million lent to the company in 2007 was on an unsecured, interest-free basis.

It was due to be repaid last year. Anglo Irish Bank declined to comment.

A source close to the bank confirmed that, despite the resignations, the bank still owned a 50 per cent stake and said it was deciding whether it needed to have directors on the board. The bank declined to confirm whether all of the €25 million lent to Regeneration Development had, in fact, come from Anglo on an interest free, unsecured basis.

Is this good news or bad? :confused:

Let’s face it.
The Opera Centre will never happen.

Yes it can happen.

Lets face reality.

Lets face it.

Lets face that I said it.

What are you going to do about it.

Patrick and Rutland Street shouldn’t be sitting idle and rotting while we wait for this marvellous new Arthur’s Quay that will magically rejuvenate the city centre.

Im not suggesting for a second that the Opera Centre is the magical solution to all the city centres ills but it’s certainly a big part of the solution. Firstly we need to provide large scale, modern retail space to attract the big name retailers not currently represented in Limerick, into the heart of the city. If we do this, it’s logical to suggest that increased numbers of shopper’s will follow!

It’s by no means a perfect development but the current proposal is infinitely better than what went before!

Of course the big question now is, when, if ever will construction get underway?

Hollowed out by the ‘doughnut’ effect (Irish Times)

LIMERICK IS a doughnut, according to the city centre’s retailers, and they don’t mean it as a compliment. With a fat ring of suburban shopping malls swallowing up available spenders into their inviting car parks, there’s a traffic-ensnared retail void right at the place where most cities tend to keep their busiest hubs of commercial activity: the centre.

Now a major plan to resuscitate the city’s retail heart has been derailed by the banking crisis. The 410,000sq ft Opera Centre, a €350 million project in which Anglo Irish Bank had a 50 per cent stake, has stalled indefinitely, the undeveloped site a bleak reminder of the ambition of the boom years.

For many city shopkeepers, however, lacklustre footfall along Limerick’s main arteries is a problem that originates decades ago, predating both Anglo’s hubris and Dell’s devastating redundancies.

“Really, the city council neglected the city and took its eye off the ball for 20 years,” says David O’Mahony, the chairman of O’Mahony’s bookshop, which trades over several well-stocked storeys on O’Connell St.

“It’s insane that the situation has been allowed to exist for so long,” he sighs.

The “situation” is that three separate councils have jurisdiction over the area that essentially makes up the city: Limerick City Council, Limerick County Council and Clare County Council.

The result of this administrative mishmash is that a string of shopping centres received permission to be built beyond the city’s patch, leaving those that were left in the centre floundering. “Like baubles on a necklace,” is how one person describes Limerick’s retail pattern – a more flattering description than a doughnut, perhaps, but no less dismaying for the city vendors fighting to attract a finite number of customers.

“No one in the city centre was unduly upset that the Parkway was shelved or the Crescent was refused its extension,” says O’Mahony.

The unfinished Parkway was a Liam Carroll speciality that started building before it had nailed down an anchor store. The brand-packed Crescent, located just past the city boundary in Dooradoyle, is already the biggest shopping centre outside the greater Dublin area, with Zara, Tommy Hilfiger, Next, HM, River Island, Monsoon and HMV all under its highly convenient roof. The Crescent was this year refused permission to expand again after the city council told a Bord Pleanála hearing that enough was enough: the city cannot be sacrificed to the suburbs.

“Most large urban centres would want to see the core supported first before you build around it,” says Tom Mackey, city manager of Limerick, matter-of-factly.

An application seeking the extension of the city council’s remit is sitting on the in-tray of Minister for the Environment John Gormley. “It would unite the city as one entity,” says Mackey.

In the meantime, Mackey is trying to unsnarl Limerick’s streets of its HGVs: the completion of an orbital route and building of a tunnel will allow for the pedestrianisation of O’Connell Street and the widening of the William Street footpaths, following an attractive pedestrianisation of Thomas Street and Bedford Row.

“To some extent, we’re very dependent on Government funding,” Mackey says ominously.

“Naturally, recession does slow things down.”

And the Opera Centre? “It’s hard to predict when it will be built,” he says.

For Oliver Moloney, founder of the Instore chain of furniture and giftware stores, the shame was that several businesses near his own Ellen Street store closed down to make way for the Opera.

“There was a bicycle shop, a butchers, a bar/restaurant,” he says, listing them.

“They created traffic for us. The pity was that it got that far and they sold their leases. But nobody knew what was coming, except for maybe David McWilliams. From the city council perspective, they’ve lost a lot of rate income.”

Like all analogies, the “doughnut” shape of Limerick is not a perfect fit. Apart from department stores Brown Thomas and Debenhams and a splattering of international fashion brands, the city centre also has something that tends not to be replicated in most standard-fit, inward-facing, privately developed shopping centres: independents.

“There are lots of brilliant independent traders on Roches Street,” notes former TV3 news reporter Laura Ryan, who, as Limerick City co-ordination officer, now has the job of promoting her native city.

“Tonight I’m going shopping with a girlfriend and we’re going to go for a glass of wine after. I’m not going to do that in a shopping centre,” she says.

Still, the Opera Centre would be a plus, Ryan thinks, especially if it managed to secure Marks Spencer, which is currently not in Limerick, but has toyed with several possible locations, including the rejected Crescent extension.

“I lived in Dublin for nine years and I have withdrawal symptoms from MS. Definitely, they would do so well in Limerick,” she says.

The weekend before last, Ryan helped organise Winterfest, a co-ordinated effort by Limerick’s retailers to entice people to shop. But although the event – which included a Georgian Quarter market, a range of discounts and a free-parking initiative – was a success, the Winterfest weather was too wintry for some.

The bad luck was encapsulated by the fate of the city council’s “green tree”. Plans to place the 100ft recycled-steel tree in the river were undone when the swelling waters allowed it to break free of its momorings and crash into Shannon Bridge. “It was always going to end up in the river,” says Ryan wryly.

Back in O’Mahony’s bookshop, there’s a display of “where did it all go wrong” economic books, while David McWilliams is due to pop in a couple of nights later to sign copies of his latest work.

O’Mahony, who sells academic as well as consumer titles, is enduring the “complete ripple effect” from Dell. “There’s been a massive drop in the resources of students and the resources of their parents as well,” he says.

O’Mahony has another hat – he is chairman of the Limerick Market Trustees, a historic body charged since the mid-19th century with operating or licensing any market that takes place in Limerick city “or one mile beyond”. But this involved “a significant amount of time spent running car parks”, he says. So the trustees began what’s now costed as a €2 million project to transform the Limerick Milk Market from a Saturday morning market to a six-day operation, with a weatherproof umbrella structure and five permanent units.

Earlier this month, with tenders awarded at recession-tastic competitive prices, the diggers finally moved into the cut-stone courtyard, not far from both Moloney’s Ellen Street store and the site of the Opera Centre.

“The Milk Market could be an events venue, it could be an outside broadcast area, it could be a cinema,” says O’Mahony, who hopes it will improve the city’s footfall when it opens in mid-2010.

“Limerick needs attractions, it needs places to visit. It has the river, it has the Hunt Museum, it has the retail diversity. But if you’re going into Limerick city centre, where are you going?”

The “community dimension” to the Milk Market will provide new opportunities for the local micro-enterprises that are expected to spring up in the wake of the closure of Dell’s manufacturing plant, O’Mahony adds. The city needs this more than any major retail scheme, he believes.

“With shopping centres, all you’re doing is replicating a theoretically English model and that is not what will help Limerick.”

How the State became de facto shopping centre owners (Irish Times)

ANGLO IRISH BANK’S stake in the Opera Centre means that its future is now entwined with that of the National Asset Management Agency (Nama).

Interests held by the nationalised bank in completed, half-finished and mooted retail projects will be part of the €77 billion in property, land and development loans being transferred to Nama.

Any retail schemes that were financed by AIB and Bank of Ireland in recent years could also end up in the Nama pot – but there are no official statistics on the value of retail-related debt that will now be dealing with a State agency as its lender.

Uncompleted schemes such as the €350 million Opera Centre – the other 50 per cent of which is owned by developers Jerry O’Reilly, Terry Sweeney and David Courtney – are part of the €46 billion of Nama loans that don’t currently produce any income from tenants.

Some of these projects will not proceed as they no longer make commercial sense. Some “may be viable of alternative uses or alternative project timescales are considered”, the Nama business plan states. But it is likely that Nama will try to maximise its regular cash income, which could mean borrowing more to complete unfinished shopping malls.

Any decision on schemes such as the Opera Centre will have to be taken in the context of a more downcast consumer economy.

Tom Mackey, Limerick’s city manager, is adamant that the Opera Centre will eventually “bring significant retail-led regeneration to Limerick’s city centre”, as the original brochure claimed, and that it won’t be one of those “sounded like a good idea at the time” schemes that never happens.

“That will happen in smaller commuter towns, but Limerick is the third city in the country. It is inevitable that if you have a major retail space, it will be developed,” says Mackey.

I heard from a retailer right next to the proposed development that they are need about 20 million before the thing can go ahead.

@tretle wrote:

I heard from a retailer right next to the proposed development that they are need about 20 million before the thing can go ahead.

Id say that’s a bit on the conservative side tretle. Over the last 18 months or so there was absolutely no indication whatsoever that Regeneration Developments had access to the kind of finance that was needed to fund this project.

Now that the Opera Centre has gone to the incomprehensible mess they call NAMA, it really is anyone’s guess as to when we’ll see any action! Although many of the building’s on site will probably be close to structural failure at that stage! 😡

Just to tie up another loose end which I thought had been sorted long ago but apparently not.

This was an appeal by the owners of the Trinity Rooms nightclub against the compulsory aquisition of a portion of ground on Bank Place to facilitate the development of the Opera Centre.

The inspector actually recommended that the CPO should not go ahead but this was overturned by the ABP board!

Bank Place Area CPO 2008

Decision: Confirm CPO without modifications

Date Signed: 27/11/2009

Reasons and Considerations

Having considered the objections made to the Compulsory Purchase Order and the report of the person who conducted the oral hearing into the objections and having regard to the purposes of the acquisition as set out in the Order, the need to promote the urban regeneration of Bank Place and contiguous areas of the city in accordance with the policies in the Limerick City Development Plan and the relevant Integrated Area Plan, it is considered that the acquisition of the land in question is necessary for the said purposes and that the objections cannot be sustained against the said necessity.

In deciding not to accept the Inspector’s recommendation not to confirm the Compulsory Purchase Order, the Board accepted the case made by the local authority that unencumbered possession of the piece of land on Bank Place, which is part of the public domain of Limerick City Centre, is a reasonable exercise by a local authority of their powers under the Planning and Development Act in order to achieve a comprehensive redevelopment of an area in need of regeneration for the public good, including the upgrading of the public domain.

‘Funding not in place’ to complete Limerick’s Opera Centre development (Limerick Leader) 😡

FEARS that the much-awaited Opera Centre development in Limerick may not materialise have been heightened after the company auditors confirmed that “no funding is currently in place to complete the project”.

While the directors of the company believe financial support for the project will be maintained, the auditors BDO said “there is no certainty that this will be the case”.

The company behind the €350m shopping centre – Regeneration Developments Ltd – owed creditors €117.5m by the end of 2008, according to the latest accounts submitted to the Companies Registration Office, which were signed off this January 18.

Some €112m has now been spent on the unbuilt site, which was been in the pipeline for four years, with €86m owed in bank loans. Interest on bank loans rose to €3.6m in 2008, from €1.7m in 2007.

Shareholders loans – which are unsecure – came to €30.7m, while bank borrowings were secured with a guarantee for €50m from three of the directors.

The company, Regeneration Developments, had a loss before taxation of €3.1m that year, nearly double their loss in 2007.

However, their operating profit increased from €15,582 to €205,011, and net assets increased from €1.7m to j4.9m by the year end.

In their report, the auditors raised concerns as to whether “continued funding for day-to-day operations can be maintained” and whether the “directors will be successful in obtaining the necessary financing to develop the sites, should the company decide to do so.”

Given these uncertainties, the auditors said they were unable to determine whether or not an extraordinary general meeting should be called.

“The directors are confident that normal operational expenditure can be met from ongoing income. However, interest is being rolled up on bank loans used to purchase the various properties.

“The directors believe this ongoing support will continue, but there is no certainty that this will be the case,” they stated.

Hardly a surprise really is it?

Essentially the gist of this is that the development company may be able to secure the necessary funding but then again it probably won’t! 🙁

I must say I don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for Regeneration Developments. Their stewardship of the project has been qestionable to say the least. This shambolic mess could easily have been avoided had it not been for a series of poor decisions in the design and planning stages! :rolleyes:

Staying with the issue of city centre decline. Here is the current state of play on Patrick Street/Rutland Street. Captured in black & white for added misery! 😉

Photos thanks to Stan the man

I’ve heard talk, vague to say the least, about redeveloping Arthur’s Quay and integrating this development with the Opera Centre site. If Mr. Tiernan hasn’t, unlike the other players around town, over extended himself he could develop the Opera centre and move his existing tenants into it and then re-do Arthur’s Quay as prime city centre office space.

I wonder to what degree we could end up with more land/site swaps happening around the city. I think the Parkway for example could take the half completed Liam Carroll site out the Dublin road and level the existing Parkway complex and revamp it as office/residential making much better use of the site with an integrated train station (wishful thinking) and bus link to the Plassey campus.

@Dan Sullivan wrote:

I’ve heard talk, vague to say the least, about redeveloping Arthur’s Quay and integrating this development with the Opera Centre site. If Mr. Tiernan hasn’t, unlike the other players around town, over extended himself he could develop the Opera centre and move his existing tenants into it and then re-do Arthur’s Quay as prime city centre office space.

I wonder to what degree we could end up with more land/site swaps happening around the city. I think the Parkway for example could take the half completed Liam Carroll site out the Dublin road and level the existing Parkway complex and revamp it as office/residential making much better use of the site with an integrated train station (wishful thinking) and bus link to the Plassey campus.

Interesting point Dan,Arthurs Quay looks over the park and river and so you would imagine that it would make an attractive location for an office and/or apartment development.With regard to the Parkway site , this area needs serious consideration by the council from the point of view of traffic management.For many people travelling into town from the Dublin road this area is a major bottleneck that puts people off going into the city centre.
In Cork they built the Blackpool bypass ( Im sure anyone who travelled into Cork city in the old days remembers crawling along through Blackpool). The final result is a road littered with traffic lights but at least there is a reasonable flow and you are brought driectly into the city centre opposite the Opera house and a choice of 3 multi-story car parks to aim for.Similarly on the south of Cork city they built the south city link road – on the site of the old railway line I believe.This provides quick access to the city centre and a route to the train station. All the above is off topic – but for the Opera centre to be successful and indeed for the rest of the city centre to get an increase in footfall, the city needs to still pander to the lazy approach — hop in your car and get out in a parking lot..multi-story… with free parking! ( How about free parking all day everyday for anyone with 30euro+ receipts from city centre shops… I know , I know…cloud cookoo land.)

Griff, I honestly don’t think that access to the city centre is a huge problem, certainly not during trading hours anyhow! Fair enough it’s gets a bit tricky at rush hour etc but that’s to be expected!

The main reason’s that shopper’s are deserting the city centre are a combination of laziness, well documented issues such as beggar’s on the streets, lack of a visible garda presence etc, and of course a now inferior retail offering compared to the likes of the Crescent sc!

@Dan Sullivan wrote:

I’ve heard talk, vague to say the least, about redeveloping Arthur’s Quay and integrating this development with the Opera Centre site. If Mr. Tiernan hasn’t, unlike the other players around town, over extended himself he could develop the Opera centre and move his existing tenants into it and then re-do Arthur’s Quay as prime city centre office space.

I heard something broadly similar Dan, but it didn’t make a whole pile of sense to me. Maybe I just picked it up wrong!

It’s probably just an acknowledgement that there just isn’t the demand for another large scale retail complex as was proposed in the Arthur’s Quay Materplan! Of the two, the Opera Centre is the more viable retail project. Whereas Aurthur’s Quay offers more potential as a mixed use commercial/residential & possibly cultural project.

As it stands the Arthur’s Quay centre is mostly home to small, independent retailers. Hypothetically Tesco would be the only one large enough to take a unit in the Opera Centre. I think the operators would be setting their sights a bit higher than that but maybe this might all have to change now. Although hopefully we won’t have to settle for Arthur’s Quay mark II. 🙁

Limerick City Council seeks judgment over non-payment of rates at vast Opera Centre site (Limerick Leader)

By Anne Sheridan

LIMERICK City Council is seeking a judgment mortgage in the High Court against the Opera Centre development site over the alleged non-payment of commercial rates.
It is understood that in the region of €350,000 is owed to City Hall by the developers of the vacant shopping centre site in the Patrick Street area.

Rates for the site amount to €350,000 per annum and, it is alleged, have not been paid for two years. Even if commercial properties are not trading, the Council can still apply rates at 50 per cent.

Once described as “Limerick’s shopping mecca”, the project backed by Dublin-based Regeneration Developments has been in the pipeline for five years but councillors have predicted the project is now destined for the National Asset Management Agency.

Councillors said this week that they were “led up the garden path” with the €350 million development which was expected to revitalise the city centre and curb out-of-town shopping.

“It was a development in the heart of the city that promised so much during the boom years and now we’ve been left with nothing,” said Labour councillor Joe Leddin.

Existing businesses vacated the site after being bought out and planning permission was granted twice by An Bord Pleanala.

Cllr Leddin had raised concerns during a meeting this Tuesday about whether the Council is collecting any rates from this site or other “eyesore” developments.

“The Opera Centre is the single biggest derelict site, probably in the country. When are we going to get something in there? We can’t adopt a laissez-faire attitude in the hope that things will turn round. We can’t curl up in a ball and wait for the economic clouds to pass over,” said Cllr Leddin.

Cllr Leddin said he doubted the company was paying anything in rates but officials at the meeting made no response to this.

One spokesperson for City Hall told the Leader that ratepayers have a right to confidentiality over their affairs but the Council generally seeksto havejudgment mortgages registered against premises if rates aren’t paid.

A special meeting in committee – where the public and media are prevented from attending – has been called to examine all the vacant commercial sites in the city and determine if tenants can be found while developers’financial affairs are being teased out at a national level.

Two years ago, councillors had complained that over €500,000 in rates would be lost by the Council over the course of three years if dozens of retail units on Bank Place, Rutland Street, Patrick Street and Ellen Street were left vacant.

But at that time a spokesperson for the company reassured the Limerick Leaderthat once the retail centre was fully operational, the City Council would regain this loss of rates within one year of business.

“Once the Opera Centre is open, the City Council will receive at least five times more than what they’re receiving now – it will be in the region of €1 million per year. This development is going to generate lots of income and lots of footfall in the city – it’s all positive,” said a spokesperson.

Cllr Leddin urged the Council to be more proactive in attracting tenants for the mounting numbers of vacant buildings in the city. “We need to have plans for the sites, even if the finance isn’t there,” he said.

Independent councillor Pat Kennedy said he was “very doubtful about the grandiose notions” for that site.

“We were led up the garden path to be honest about it. After several years the whole situation is an absolute disgrace,” said Cllr Kennedy.
Addressing these issues, city manager Tom Mackey said it was previously the case that “the Council had the sites and developers had the finance”.

“Now most developers are finding it very difficult to get finance and come to us,” said Mr Mackey, adding that “national issues are impacting on us”.

The company behind the development have invested at least €92 million to date on the project and owe creditors €117 million.

It had been reported that Anglo Irish Bank had a 50 per cent share in the development. Just three directors now remain on the board of the company – David Courtney, 49, Rathmines; Jerry O’Reilly, 64, Ranelagh and Terence Sweeney, 28, Dublin 2.

.

Any idea if retailers are moving back into the patrick street area since the Opera Centre project has fallen through the roof?

I think that a huge shopping centre like the Opera Centre is the wrong fit for Limerick. The city has so many dead streets with great potential. While the shops in the centre would certainly draw people into the city, only a small part of the city would be rejuvinated.
If a scheme like the proposed Arthurs Quay redevelopment (not that design though, see below) or the Liverpool 1 development went ahead, the shops that would be hidden in a shopping centre would all have street frontage. Thus the same amount of new stores can transfer a larger part of the city.

[attachment=0:3jmkzsc8]Arthurs Quay.png[/attachment:3jmkzsc8]
Red: Site outline
Black: Traffic
Yellow: Pedestrian only streets, squares, promenades
Purple: Entrance/exit of traffic tunnel.
Green: Public square

The tunnel would allow the area to be largely car free and would also give access to the underground carpark that would span the whole site.
Moving the park would finally give the city a defined centre and the wide prominade along the quays would mean that the riverfront would become a living area of the city again. Playgrounds and the like would encourage families to live in the apartments that would take up a substantial part of the floor area above the ground/first floor retail units. This in turn would bring life back into the city.

I agree that a park in that area would do alot for the city but why would you incorporate a park in limericks main street when the old dunnes stores is rotting on sarsfield street

I don’t agree that the Opera centre was too big a development – in fact the proposal to refurbish and incorporate neglected Georgian buildings into the scheme was one of its selling points imho…. Sadly we are unlikely ever to see this development proceed. The only bright light I can see is once the amalgamation of the 2 councils happens there may be more money to spend on the city… maybe.. There has been some good work done on the 2 strands and Thomas st/Bedford row.. Jury is still out on Sarsfield st/William st.. I think there should be a scheme to help finance the refurbishment of existing buildings on these streets also..

@daire english wrote:

I agree that a park in that area would do alot for the city but why would you incorporate a park in limericks main street when the old dunnes stores is rotting on sarsfield street

I was thinking more of a square like Eyre Square with buildings fronting onto it rather than a park in the Pery Sq sense of the word. The old Dunnes wouldn’t suit my idea of a park as you would have to cross a busy road to get to it from all sides, and as it stands none of the three streets that would front on to it are exactly busy. I think it would become a dead park like Arthurs Quay park is now.

@Griff wrote:

I don’t agree that the Opera centre was too big a development

Maybe I didn’t phrase it right but I dont think it’s too big, just not the right type of development. As I said, a shopping centre hides away all of the shops from the rest of the city but if they were all stand-alone units fronting onto streets they make it seem much busier (in my opinion).

@Griff wrote:

the proposal to refurbish and incorporate neglected Georgian buildings into the scheme was one of its selling points imho

Ya I think the refurbishment would have been a major plus for the character of the city but I was never sure if they were going to just preserve the exterior ( not such a bad idea) or the entire building ( not very suited to modern retail needs).

I don’t agree that Arthur’s Quay Park is a dead Park. I go through there quite a lot and it’s well used.

There is a big problem in that the road acts as a major barrier to it. The tunnel solution is interesting, but no doubt very, very costly.

Your proposed re-location of the park is a good idea, but if there is to be building on the site of the existing park there should be a wide promenade for walkers to walk along by the river.

Given that it’s very unlikely that anything will happen in this area for a while, perhaps pressure should be brought to bear on the owners of the various disused buildings to do something with them. The old Dunnes Stores is particularly ghastly.

The knocking of Sarsfield House would be very welcome. If only it was riddled with asbestos, there might be some hope of that.

The council has already looked into this idea back in 2008. Look at page 54 of this pdf http://limerickcity.ie/Publications/Thefile,8018,en.pdf

@zulutango wrote:

I don’t agree that Arthur’s Quay Park is a dead Park. I go through there quite a lot and it’s well used.

Ok maybe I’m exaggerating but I don’t think it’s as busy as it should be as the most central public space in the city. I put it down to its location and the fact that it seems to be more concrete than grass.

@zulutango wrote:

There is a big problem in that the road acts as a major barrier to it. The tunnel solution is interesting, but no doubt very, very costly.

The tunnel would be just below the existing road level and would be more of a road through a big basement carpark than a stand alone structure. Basements are standard procedure in new commercial builds so it wouldn’t be terribly expensive.

@zulutango wrote:

Given that it’s very unlikely that anything will happen in this area for a while, perhaps pressure should be brought to bear on the owners of the various disused buildings to do something with them. The old Dunnes Stores is particularly ghastly.

Of course it should be brought to bear but the chances of that happening are slim to none. Just look at Liddy St. as your guide.

@Goofy wrote:

The council has already looked into this idea back in 2008. Look at page 54 of this pdf http://limerickcity.ie/Publications/Thefile,8018,en.pdf

Ya my suggestion is a modification of that proposal. I dont think the little square they propose at the O’Connell St. junction is big enough to justify building on Arthurs Quay. Also the orbital route would cut through it, making the riverside area less attractive (in the sense of attracting people across a busy street, as opposed to how it looks), hence the tunnel.

@zulutango wrote:

There is a big problem in that the road acts as a major barrier to it. The tunnel solution is interesting, but no doubt very, very costly.

The tunnel would be just below the existing road level and would be more of a road through a big basement carpark than a stand alone structure. Basements are standard procedure in new commercial builds so it wouldn’t be terribly expensive.

…….. Is a tunnel needed ?… how busy is this road really… why not as an experiment reduce it to one lane in front of Arthurs quay with a small filter for the car park entrance perhaps. Leave Francis st as 3 lanes to buffer traffic waiting at a red light at Patrick/Rutland st.

By Alan Owens
Published on Friday 19 August 2011 13:30

A FIRE at the site of the proposed Opera Centre has sparked further concerns over the continuing dereliction of the area.

THREE units of Limerick Fire Service and local gardai attended the scene of the fire at a derelict building on Rutland Street. The building forms part of the stalled ‘Opera Centre’ development and is located next to the Trinity Rooms nightclub, which has remained closed since July as a result of problems associated with the neighbouring site, which has lain dormant for several years.

Gardai from Henry Street also attended the scene, but told the Limerick Leader that they were not aware of any suspicious behaviour or reports of anti-social behaviour at the scene.

A source close to Trinity Rooms management told the Leader that the fire “just highlights the overall problem that is there, and the dangers that exist on all sides”.

“It is an ongoing problem and it is nearly a year since the disrepair those buildings are in was highlighted and that we could have a situation similar to Cork where they collapsed.” They added that the nightclub would remain closed indefinitely for “health and safety and legal reasons and duty of care to customers and staff”, while the issues with the Opera Centre remained unresolved.

While moves are taking place behind the scenes to encourage some kind of development in the site, traders and business owners in the area around the Opera Centre are growing increasingly nervous as to the derelict nature of the site.

The site has been in limbo for some four years since it was first mooted as a flagship development for the city centre, encompassing more than 40 individual properties, which have now largely all fallen into disrepair.

@Griff wrote:

…….. Is a tunnel needed ?… how busy is this road really…

I don’t know what the traffic is like now but when the orbital route is completed I would imagine that it would get as busy as Henry Street is currently. I would also imagine that too many pedestrian crossings on the orbital route would slow down traffic quite a bit.

Yes but you just know that a tunnel isnt going to be built under the park.. as good an idea it might be, the funding just isnt there to build it.. I think some form of pedestrian priority system in front of Arthurs quay would make the park more accessible without costing millions..

You’re right on both counts there Griff. I just like imagining how Limerick could be more of a destination in the country, rather than the also ran compared to Dublin/Cork/Galway.

I see Savills have erected new banners advertising the sale of the opera centre site.

The Irish Times are reporting that €12.5 million is the guide price.

Despite murmurings of a number of parties showing an interest. You’d have to wonder who could possibly be in a position to get hold of the finance to take on this massive project?

Of course any potential bidders could well have other plans for the site aswell.

€110m development site back on market at €12.5m

JACK FAGAN

A DEVELOPMENT SITE for the proposed Opera shopping centre in Limerick city centre, sold at the peak of the property boom for €110 million, is back on the market at a mere €12.5 million. The collapse in value underlines how much even prime retail sites have fallen in cities as well as towns. It also reflects the difficulties in securing funding for large-scale shopping facilities.

The 2005 sale of the rundown, vacant buildings off Patrick Street in Limerick is frequently cited among the great excesses of the property boom along with the €417 million purchase of the Irish Glass Bottle site in Ringsend and the €315 million acquisition of the Millennium Park in Naas.

Estate agents Savills are to launch a marketing campaign today to find a buyer for the 3.2-acre site which has planning permission for a multi-storey shopping centre with 38,541sq m (414,855 sq ft) of retail space and an underground car park. The sale has been called by developers Gerry O’Reilly, Terry Sweeney and David Courtney of Regeneration Developments, whose loans have been transferred to Nama.

The move to sell the site for the proposed €300 million Opera Centre comes only weeks after the Danish bank NIB reached agreement with an Indian-born developer, Suneil Sharama, for him to take control of a partially built shopping centre along the Dublin Road on the outskirts of Limerick city. Liam Carroll’s Zoe Group abandoned the 15-acre site for the Parkway Valley shopping centre about four years ago when its business collapsed. Local planners are now expected to allow an extension of time on the planning permission for the 39,650sq m (426,792sq ft) retail complex.

Coincidentally, the new promoter for that scheme, Mr Sharma, who is based in the North, is more familiar with the site for the Opera centre than anyone else – having quietly assembled the inner-city quarter along with another investor, Sam Morrison, over a number of years before selling it for an astronomical price to Regeneration Developments.

Limerick city planners granted planning approval for the Opera Centre in the hope that it might help to shift the balance back in favour of the city, which has been in serious decline for many years following the indiscriminate development of more than half a dozen shopping centres in the county-council areas adjoining the city boundary.

Footfall in the city centre has dropped dramatically in recent years as big-name overseas traders opted for out-of-town locations, leaving only three high-profile stores (Penney’s, Brown Thomas and Debenhams) with a broad appeal to city shoppers.

Many of the city’s once-thriving retail streets, including Patrick Street, William Street and the modern Cruises Street, have lost both traders and shoppers. Limerick is the only city in Ireland where rents in out-of-town shopping centres are almost twice as high as those in the city.

Much of the decline in city-centre trading is due to the way the county planners allowed the Crescent shopping centre to grow like Topsy. That trend was finally scuppered last year when An Bord Pleanála overruled the county planners and refused the Dublin-based owners (the Kenny family) permission for yet another major store with a floor area of 9,754 sq m (105,000 sq ft) for Marks Spencer.

The new Government’s recent decision to amalgamate the two local authorities is set to change future planning in the city and county. With Marks Spencer still to decide where to open its first Limerick store, Parkway Valley and whoever acquires the Opera site will both be pitching for the UK multiple as an anchor.

One developer who may take another look at the Opera site is Michael Tiernan, whose Arthur’s Quay shopping centre on the opposite side of Patrick Street has become quite dated. However, if linked up with the proposed new shopping complex it has the potential to turn around the city’s fortunes.

@Tuborg wrote:

You’d have to wonder who could possibly be in a position to get hold of the finance to take on this massive project?

Of course any potential bidders could well have other plans for the site aswell.

It looks like as if the Opera Shopping Centre project is now dead.

The City Council will now start looking at other options for this block as part of the Regeneration projects.

Opera Centre site bought by Limerick City Council

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/opera_centre_site_bought_by_limerick_city_council_1_3262927

By Anne Sheridan

THE Limerick Leader can confirm that Limerick City Council have bought the Opera Centre site with funds made available from the Department of the Environment’s Regeneration budget.

The announcement has been confirmed by Minister for Finance Michael Noonan this Friday afternoon, who said he hopes “it will get life back into the centre of the city.”

“Regeneration means more than regenerating the suburbs with social problems,” the Minister told this newspaper. “The biggest regeneration challenge in Limerick is to regenerate the city centre. We were afraid the Opera site would go to a developer who would sit on it for 20 or 30 years and we’d be left with all this dereliction, with no possibility of developing it,” he said.

Minister Noonan said the department had funds left over from its Regeneration budget this year, which they allocated to Limerick City Council to purchase the site from the National Assets Management Agency (NAMA).
He said an urban development plan will be drawn up for the site in three months, which is expected to become “a commercial, cultural and social hub.”

“Obviously we’ve only ideas yet, but we want to get the professionals in, and plan the whole area from the docklands right across.”

It is understood the council have been in discussions with the University of Limerick and Limerick Institute of Technology regarding having student residencies in the massive complex.

The sale was concluded this evening.

Peter O’Meara, the agent in Cork with Savills, said he was “delighted” the sale had gone through, which he said is “great for Limerick.”

While the cost of buying the site has not been revealed, it had been reduced in price to €12.5m, after its value plummeted from over €100m a number of years ago.

A statement is expected shortly from the Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan.

Game over it would seem.

Six years on from the first planning application and the site remains untouched and significantly worse for wear.

On the one hand it’s somewhat encouraging to finally see some movement on this. Afterall it is over two years since An Bord Pleanala handed down their final verdict. However I find it difficult to muster up any enthusiasm at the prospect of the State overseeing the regeneration of this area. We’ll probably end up with more social housing units being developed. :crazy:

The existing plans are not without their flaws of course. But I reckon the shopping complex would have been the safest bet in terms of kick starting the process of injecting some life back into the city centre. A city centre that urgently needs to improve it’s dwindling retail offering.

The spin off effects from this development could have been a catalyst for the renewal of other under utilised sites in the surrounding area. The so called market quarter for instance has huge potential and we should be encouraging more cafes. restaurants, bars etc to set up there.

Overall Limerick City Council have as usual been extremely slow off the mark and blew a golden opportunity over the last decade or so to market this area for investment. You could argue aswell that had they adopted a more proactive approach during the planning stages of the opera centre. The complex could well have been up and running by now.

I really would have preferred a private investor to come develop the Opera site. Instead we have tax payers money being used to buy the site from NAMA, and a plan being developed over the coming months after the purchase. Do Limerick City Council have the money to do anything with the site?

I think we would have been better to offer the site and a €12.5m grant for any international retail/mall developer to come in and build the Opera centre. It would have brought external money into Limerick during development and greatly improved the retail offering of the city centre.

Will wait and see the plan for the site, hopefully it’ll work out, but really, the plan should have been in place before the tax payer paid for the site.

Cáit Ní Cheallacháin, who fought a heritage battle with the various developers of the Opera Centre site during the planning stages, has written an interesting letter in this week’s Limerick Leader. See attachment.

Right on, Cáit.

My proposal is not a “mixed development” — or any other such stupid self-aborting proposal.

I want it to be a real opera centre, plain and simple.
Christ, don’t we all need a decent arena for concerts, big plays and maybe even the odd opera.

By day it would be a training base and “home ground” for two dance academies, classical (ballet) and modern (e.g. for musicals).
On no account are these dance academies to be appropriated into the greedy arms of UL.
The Academy of Classical & Modern Dance must have their own separate distinct cachet.
ALL staff to be foreigners of high accomplishment.
ALL subsequent appointments to be “new blood” — i.e. no past graduates taking over the place à la UL post-Ed Walsh.
Compulsory international exchange tours in summer season.
Season ticket options for locals.
All-in heritage venue card rate for tourists.

“Freshman Dancers College” for enthusiastic paying locals / keep-fit people.
Injury recovery exercise tutoring for sports- and lay-people.
Poise and footwork classes for soccer and boxing enthusiasts.

Why can’t we dream for a change and stop pretending that we need more “housing” in the centre of the city and in
a totally inappropriate building ? :angel:

You know I had thought of something similar. If the UCH could be persuaded to be transferred to a new Opera House on the site it would bring a lot of life to the city. And wouldn’t the old city hall be a lovely opera house entrance?

@pigtown wrote:

You know I had thought of something similar. If the UCH could be persuaded to be transferred to a new Opera House on the site it would bring a lot of life to the city. And wouldn’t the old city hall be a lovely opera house entrance?

In an ideal world, I wouldn’t like to see this site become a concert venue. I think the buildings in the area should be refurbished and be reopened to retailers. I thought the Opera Centre proposal was the right idea, although the whole aesthetic is a little too plasticky and the kind of thing that will become outdated pretty fast. Some attempt to incorporate the historic nature of the area alongside new retailers, like the Powerscourt Centre in Dublin, would be perfect.

In terms of an concert venue, I think a new landmark building near the river, perhaps on the Dunnes site, would be ideal for that – something weird and wacky that adds to the riverfront in a modern way.

This is all fantasy in the current climate though!

In terms of an concert venue, I think a new landmark building near the river, perhaps on the Dunnes site, would be ideal for that – something weird and wacky that adds to the riverfront in a modern way.

A lot of buildings compete for Shannon river frontage, not least the UL Architecture’s proposed new City Library — a very worthy case for a new building — down in the corner of the old potato market.

Sure, a concert hall entrance from the Charlotte Quay won’t generate as many adoring photo backdrops.
But the site is big, fully developable and I think a good public works architect could readily blend the new part of the building with the old Granary stonework façades.

This is all fantasy in the current climate though!

But Fantasy exercises the Soul . . .

I see that Jim Long now expects to go 20 m down before he can commence work proper on building the new centre.
I’d estimate that the bedrock is at most 6 m below the surface. And the water table well above that level.
Considering that the overall footprint of the site is very large, do we really need so many levels of car-parking ?
And at what cost, given the amount of rock needing to be drilled out ? And how much sealing of the perimeter, as well as redirection of drainage from neighbouring sites needs to be done ?

Clearly, our Jamsie is being taken for a ride by the promoter.
To avoid another wart on the Limerick skyline, I’d be happy that Jim and all the rest of the council went on a one-off junket to Milan to see the Galleria Vittorio Emanuale II. If we must have a new shopping arcade, let it be tasteful.

Perhaps hizzonner would like to read this: http://www.lamag.com/features/Story.aspx?ID=1568281

bjg

The last thing Limerick needs is another shopping centre, and something as large and grotesque as the opera centre. I’d like to see streets running through the site, alternating between inside and outside. The site is far too large to dedicate to indoor shopping. Definitely, the principles of the Galleria Vittorio Emanuale II would be very welcome, but far beyond Limerick City Council. Who exactly makes the decisions in the council? Are there architects or urban planners in there? Or is Jim Long the head of the posse..

Some quite puzzling quotes attributed to the “economic director” of the forthcoming combined Limerick local authority in the press recently.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/key-limerick-city-site-not-suitable-for-big-retailer-1-4609522

It’s laughable really that the site which for the most part of the last decade was trumpeted by Limerick City Council amongst others as imperative to the commercial revitalisation of the city centre can suddenly be deemed unsuitable for this purpose despite being put through an exhaustive planning process twice.

Let’s see;

• It’s a large city centre site in dire need of a combination of redevelopment and conservation.
• Immediately adjacent to established commercial, shopping and leisure areas.
• Planning permission is already secured for a large retail project so obviously this type of development is acceptable in principle
• The site is under the control of the local authority (although it’s hard to tell if this is a positive or an impediment).

No clearly it doesn’t make sense on any of these fronts! :wtf:

Essentially this is an admission by the local authority that they are way out of their depth here and haven’t a notion what to do with the site nor how to proceed with a redevelopment.

It’s over a year now since Limerick City Council purchased the site and it obviously begs the question what exactly have they been doing for the past 12 months?

I fear that the lack of a co-ordinated effort not to mention a comprehensive master plan will just result in a piecemeal, make it up as you go along approach that will inevitably lead to a disjointed and underwhelming development of the site.

Of course that’s not to say that a re-evaluation of the original concept isn’t required. It’s safe to assume now that the shopping centre proposal is never going to be built. Indeed a development of such considerable retail floor space can hardly be justified given that the reality check has well and truly set in.

All things considered my preference would be for a new pedestrian street flanked by purpose built, appropriately scaled and sensitively designed individual shop units (with linkages to the existing buildings and dual frontage where possible) snaking through from the Ellen Street/Patrick Street corner to a quality public space on Bank Place. Something along the lines of the opera lane project in Cork roughly. Perhaps an element of office space and residential accommodation could also be included. There’s ample room after all on what is a pretty extensive site.

I’d also like to see the granary building afforded a more prominent position in the redevelopment. Integration to the centre of the site is easily achieved. At the moment too much of the original building is concealed by the 1980s office block. The fabric of this structure, its stonework and arches should be showcased not hidden. The removal of the office building would also afford the opportunity to extend the internal courtyard space along the entire length of the granary.

I really wish Limerick City Council would get off their arses and demonstrate that they are at least formulating plans or considering some uses for the site even in the short term.

Why not tear down that dog ugly hoarding and fencing along Michael Street. Clear those industrial buildings in the yard at the centre of the site and lay out a temporary car park. At least it would be a start. Why not also make the structurally sound buildings that have been vacant for the last 5 years available for rent again?

Show some imagination for feck sake!

@Tuborg wrote:

Some quite puzzling quotes attributed to the “economic director” of the forthcoming combined Limerick local authority in the press recently.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/key-limerick-city-site-not-suitable-for-big-retailer-1-4609522

It’s laughable really that the site which for the most part of the last decade was trumpeted by Limerick City Council amongst others as imperative to the commercial revitalisation of the city centre can suddenly be deemed unsuitable for this purpose despite being put through an exhaustive planning process twice.

Frankly I’m happy someone is shouting stop before the thing actually gets built. In fairness to the economic director he is a new appointment and had no input into the Opera Centre plans.

@Tuborg wrote:

Let’s see;

• It’s a large city centre site in dire need of a combination of redevelopment and conservation.
• Immediately adjacent to established commercial, shopping and leisure areas.
• Planning permission is already secured for a large retail project so obviously this type of development is acceptable in principle
• The site is under the control of the local authority (although it’s hard to tell if this is a positive or an impediment).

No clearly it doesn’t make sense on any of these fronts! :wtf:

*Can’t disagree there.
*Fair enough Arthur’s Quay is established but it’s hardly a destination in the city.
*The key word here I think is in ‘principle’. Sure, the proposal didn’t contravene any zonings or the retail hierarchy of the region but at the same time it was way too big for the city.
*I don’t think it would matter who was in control of the site. That much new retail space would only serve to take from the rest of the city core.

@Tuborg wrote:

Essentially this is an admission by the local authority that they are way out of their depth here and haven’t a notion what to do with the site nor how to proceed with a redevelopment.

It’s over a year now since Limerick City Council purchased the site and it obviously begs the question what exactly have they been doing for the past 12 months?

I fear that the lack of a co-ordinated effort not to mention a comprehensive master plan will just result in a piecemeal, make it up as you go along approach that will inevitably lead to a disjointed and underwhelming development of the site.

Of course that’s not to say that a re-evaluation of the original concept isn’t required. It’s safe to assume now that the shopping centre proposal is never going to be built. Indeed a development of such considerable retail floor space can hardly be justified given that the reality check has well and truly set in.

While I don’t disagree that the council are out of their depth in undertaking such a huge redevelopment project, I don’t see them admitting anything. The new director has taken a look at the plans and has decided that they are not feasible.

A master plan for the future development of the entire city has been commissioned and is due for publication and I think any decisions on the site before this is published would have been grossly negligent of the council.

I don’t think a shopping proposal on the scale that was envisaged was ever viable. It would have drawn business’ and customers away from the existing retail core and would have had an overall negative impact on the city centre. In my opinion, had this gone ahead and filled all of the units then people would have had little reason to go anywhere in the city.

@Tuborg wrote:

All things considered my preference would be for a new pedestrian street flanked by purpose built, appropriately scaled and sensitively designed individual shop units (with linkages to the existing buildings and dual frontage where possible) snaking through from the Ellen Street/Patrick Street corner to a quality public space on Bank Place. Something along the lines of the opera lane project in Cork roughly. Perhaps an element of office space and residential accommodation could also be included. There’s ample room after all on what is a pretty extensive site.

It seems like I’m disagreeing with everything you say but I’m not sure that the city needs another street, not when we already have so many dead streets in the city. Also I think developments like Opera Lane and City Central really detract from a city. All of the shopfronts look the same and there is no variety. It’s almost like a shopping centre.

@Tuborg wrote:

I’d also like to see the granary building afforded a more prominent position in the redevelopment. Integration to the centre of the site is easily achieved. At the moment too much of the original building is concealed by the 1980s office block. The fabric of this structure, its stonework and arches should be showcased not hidden. The removal of the office building would also afford the opportunity to extend the internal courtyard space along the entire length of the granary.

Agreed.

@Tuborg wrote:

I really wish Limerick City Council would get off their arses and demonstrate that they are at least formulating plans or considering some uses for the site even in the short term.

Why not tear down that dog ugly hoarding and fencing along Michael Street. Clear those industrial buildings in the yard at the centre of the site and lay out a temporary car park. At least it would be a start. Why not also make the structurally sound buildings that have been vacant for the last 5 years available for rent again?

Show some imagination for feck sake!

Well the plans are almost complete I think. It is possible that the council don’t want to touch the site in a piecemeal fashion so as to minimise costs when something does happen, this is unlikely however and they are probably content to do a lot of talking without taking action, like the situation with the city museum. With regard to renting out some buildings, I’d imagine the rat problem is pretty severe there and any business would be hard pressed to pass any heath inspections.

What I would like to see in the site is loads of modern office space. If you consider that that any decent sized company wanting to set up in the city would probably need to build their own office building first, a large quantity of good quality office space would be a major asset. I don’t believe it should be used for retail as there are plenty of sites nearer to the core that have been identified in the most recent city development plan that are suitable for large scale developments.

Why would any service company want to set up in the city? Why not take a site on an industrial estate (sorry: business park) somewhere, with lots of parking spaces?

The Opera Centre proposal seemed to envisage turning the city centre into a suburban shopping centre. But the suburban shopping centres are already quite good at that and have better road access. The project’s appeal to the city fathers seemed to be that retail would provide a high-margin activity that could justify the city’s continued existence, but it may be that no such activity exists. Large manufacturing, retail and service (even public service) activities don’t need the city, so what is it for?

bjg

Well Cork and Galway also seem to have suburban shopping centres and yet their city centres are buzzing. The fact is that people will go where the buzz is, and there’s now a cycle of decline in Limerick city where fewer and fewer people are going because the lack of people is making it a less pleasant place to be. There’s a few things which need to be done:

1. Get more people living in the city centre. Maybe the Opera centre could have a significant residential portion involved. If people live there, people will shop there.
2. Clean up the city centre. I think this is really one of the main reasons for Limerick’s decline. It’s just not a nice place to be – at least in terms of its shopping areas. There are certain stretches of William St. which demonstrate what rejuvenation plans might achieve, but the pedestrianization has frankly completely failed to rescue the place. Somebody really needs to start knocking down or beautifying the 70s and 80s buildings, which are reminiscent of the worst English suburbs. Number one priority should be Brown Thomas, which should actually look like what it is – the flagship store of the entire city. Maybe BT will at least revamp the facade when the pedestrianization of O’Connell St. is being carried out.
3. Start moving parts of UL into the city centre. In retrospect, the decision not to build UL closer to Limerick City might have been a bit of a disaster. Not only would it have brought interesting new architectural developments, but it would have transplanted thousands of young people currently living in Castletroy into the city centre.

I think you’re getting at something when you talk about “buzz”. [Personally, I’d run a mile from it, but chacun a son gout.] In what does “buzzing” consist, why do people want to do it, what conditions make it possible and do the economic benefits outweigh the costs?

I don’t know, but allow me to speculate. If, for instance, it involves a lot of young folk sitting around drinking expensive coffee, and then going to hops [or whatever they’re called nowadays] at night, you can begin to define a target market and to cost a plan. But you might decide that those activities are already catered for in Limerick, some of them at Plassey. Maybe it should be developed as the young folks’ ghetto: older adults will not necessarily be attracted by the idea of having lots more students around the place and the proposal might accelerate their own flight.

Your proposal to get more people living in the city centre just pushes the question out a notch. Why would anyone want to live there, when there are no parking spaces and no gardens? Perhaps they would like to live close to where they work, but are the jobs in the city? And if they’re not, how will the folk get to their jobs without parking spaces for their cars?

It seems to me that proposals to decorate or clean or otherwise prettify the city (including the boardwalks, pedestrianisation and other planners’ ideas) will all fail unless there is an economic justification for the city’s continued existence. Warehosues, meat factories, mills and so on were what built [modern] Limerick, not coffee shops and boardwalks. I don’t want to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I’m wrong, but the “buzzing city” concept seems to be one based on the leisure and entertainment industries. That’s fine, provided that the plan is clear and the costs and benefits are assessed. But to me, with no knowledge of architecture or city planning, much of the discussion of Limerick regeneration seems to be based on unrealistic ideas of what can (or should) be achieved, on a particular and fairly narrow set of activities and actors (young folk drinking coffee) and on a neglect of the economic underpinnings.

bjg

But this is not the 19th century. As much as people may want it, there will be no manufacturing in the city centre – that is not how modern city centres work. So what is the city centre for, then, but for leisure and living? I don’t see what the problem with that is – it’s the model of every other city in Ireland, and most cities in Europe. I don’t see a lot of manufacturing in central Paris or central Dublin.

It’s not just about young people drinking coffee, but that’s a part of it. The city centre should be a place where people from different areas of the city, and surrounding towns, come to socialize. It should be a place where they can get an atmosphere and facilities they can’t get anywhere else. Again, what’s the problem with that? If you can think of a better, more sustainable use for a historic core of a city, now’s the time.

And I think the appearance of the city centre is crucial, not just because it’ll make more local people want to go there, but because it’ll draw tourism. Another big use for modern city centres is tourism, which draws in money for the further improvement of the lives of its citizens. Limerick has more in the way of historic landmarks and tourist sites than Cork or Galway, yet it gets overlooked because it is thought to be, with some justification, grotty and dank.

The point about nineteenth century manufacturing is that it, and the transport technology of the time, provided an economic reason for a lot of people to live in a high-density city centre. First, you seem to be starting with the presumption that there must be city centres; I don’t think that should be taken for granted.

Second, you seem to accept that there must be economic activities to support the cities, but I am mildly surprised to find that the only such activities you can think of are all leisure-related (I include tourism in that).

Third, there are several problems in the way of a leisure-based city economy: (a) lots of leisure activities are best carried out elsewhere, (b) leisure activities may drive out residents (I don’t want students vomiting on my doorstep in the early hours of the morning thank you very much), (c) leisure gets cut in economic slumps, (d) I don’t think that tarted-up streets constitute a distinctive Limerick brand (but Limerick Ham made in Limerick might) …. In fact, being better than Cork or Galway is irrelevant: what this region lacks is something that attracts people from abroad to Ireland, not something that attracts those already in Ireland away from Cork or Galway.

bjg

PS here’s an interesting point http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/01/facts-about-cities.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+marginalrevolution%2Ffeed+%28Marginal+Revolution%29.

Well that’s fair enough. Maybe there don’t have to be city centres. Maybe we can all drive from one retail park to another, and from one suburban pub to another. We could just shut down the city centre, and dissolve Limerick as a city and as a community. I think most people would disagree with you.

You seem to think that “leisure activities” encompasses in its entirety students sitting in cafes and vomiting on doorsteps. Shopping is a leisure activity, as is going to a poetry reading, or visiting a library. So is sitting in parks, admiring the river, and admiring buildings. People generally are interested in leisure activities, as evidenced by the number of people who visit the Crescent Shopping Centre. People are also quite interested in doing it in the context of a city centre, as evidenced by Cork and Galway and Dublin. And competing with them is not irrelevant, but actually vital. There is nothing, and there never will be anything, that will attract people from abroad to Ireland in this region. That’s not why people visit Ireland. They visit Ireland mainly to visit Ireland, not to visit Cork, or the Rock of Cashel, or Kilkenny, and certainly not King John’s Castle. So if we’re competing, we’re competing for a slice of that pie.

There are plenty of potential Limerick brands. On the other hand, this is an architecture and planning forum. Limerick is in some rather important places a grotty dump, and, again, most people would probably disagree with you that making Limerick better for the benefit of its citizens is nothing more than a futile exercise in “tarting up” the city to be sneered at. That’s really the mentality that spent the last century destroying Ireland’s architectural heritage.

According to the Leader the amalgamated planning department of the new local authority will be the first tenants of the Opera Centre site. They will be relocated to the old AIB building on the corner of Patrick St. and Ellen Street. This is the most modern building on the site and needs minimal work to make it habitable. I don’t know how many people will be based there but it’s a start at bringing people back into the city anyway.

@pigtown wrote:

I don’t think a shopping proposal on the scale that was envisaged was ever viable. It would have drawn business’ and customers away from the existing retail core and would have had an overall negative impact on the city centre. In my opinion, had this gone ahead and filled all of the units then people would have had little reason to go anywhere in the city.

I think you are overestimating the extent of the so called retail core if that’s even an appropriate term to use given the paucity of the current offering. Realistically Limericks shopping district currently stretches from the O’Connell Street/Roches Street junction down as far as Denmark Street along with some of the adjoining streets and laneways. Hardly what you would call expansive!

If you recall, up until 5 or so years ago Rutland Street and Lower Patrick Street were lined with a variety of businesses; retail stores, cafes etc before the misguided decision to remove the occupants before redevelopment plans were even finalised. So this portion of the city centre was/is very much part of the commercial zone.

In reality though the quality of Limericks retail line-up has evolved disappointingly since the Cruises Street project opened over 20 years ago now. William Street for example never capitalised on the momentum created along with the increased footfall in its vicinity and the opportunity to freshen up the street was lost. It has stagnated at best since.

Similarly with O’Connell Street we saw only modest investment in retail premises even throughout the excesses of the “boom” years. The former Sony centre outlet has been vacant and up for sale for a number of years at this stage. The former Fergusons chemist across the street likewise. The calibre of many businesses on the street currently is poor and significant renovation and possibly amalgamation of properties is needed to attract new, higher quality tenants. There’s no sign that this is forthcoming and you can’t exactly usurp the existing occupants either.

@pigtown wrote:

It seems like I’m disagreeing with everything you say but I’m not sure that the city needs another street, not when we already have so many dead streets in the city. Also I think developments like Opera Lane and City Central really detract from a city. All of the shopfronts look the same and there is no variety. It’s almost like a shopping centre.

You might not be a fan but in fairness that City Central development along with the pedestrianisation scheme completely revitalised Bedford Row. It brought high quality retail and residential accommodation along with a five star hotel to the city centre on what was a neglected and decaying site. Do you remember how dingy it looked previously? Take a look at the attachments below. :thumbdown:

The project also attracted the first significant batch of retailers in to the city centre for many years, most of them not represented in Limerick previously. All the units are fully let too. It’s clear that in order to entice quality brands in to the city centre accommodation of an appropriate size and standard is required. I believe a project similar to that on Bedford Row could work well for the opera centre site. By bringing in fresh blood and more footfall one would hope that it would provide a knock-on benefit to the city centre at large.

@pigtown wrote:

What I would like to see in the site is loads of modern office space. If you consider that that any decent sized company wanting to set up in the city would probably need to build their own office building first, a large quantity of good quality office space would be a major asset. I don’t believe it should be used for retail as there are plenty of sites nearer to the core that have been identified in the most recent city development plan that are suitable for large scale developments.

I’m not convinced that the opera site is best suited to a large office development. Sure it might bring further employment in to town but large scale office blocks generally provide quite a dead, dull street presence and won’t exactly draw people in to the city except for the employees obviously. An element of office space could of course be accommodated but I wouldn’t like to see the majority of the site given over to it.

There are other locations that are more suitable for this purpose. The half built GPO/hanging gardens development which is in NAMA was to contain a large amount of office space over 6 floors or so. It should be a priority to have this completed at the earliest opportunity. The former ESB building and eventually Henry Street Garda headquarters provide another large scale redevelopment opportunity on the quays along with the portion of the docklands that SFPA are looking to offload. A significant amount of office space is currently vacant in the building at the corner of Thomas Street/Catherine Street as well.

@pigtown wrote:

A master plan for the future development of the entire city has been commissioned and is due for publication and I think any decisions on the site before this is published would have been grossly negligent of the council.

I admire you optimism but I wouldn’t hold my breath. I’ve lost count of the number of glossy city centre strategies and development plans that have been released over the years. They’re hardly worth the paper they’re printed on. This will simply be a regurgitation of the same aspirational spiel which is churned out endlessly and that the City Council have neither the ability nor the will to follow through on!

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

Maybe there don’t have to be city centres.

Well, of course there don’t. A city is one form of social, political, economic, technological etc organisation, appropriate to one set of social, political, economic, technological etc factors. Change any of those factors and you change the form of organisation that is needed. I see no need to try to preserve cities, towns, monasteries, office blocks, canals or whatever after their economic etc justification has ceased, although I’m quite happy to examine the remains — or the ruins.

Look at Askeaton: lots of interesting ruins.

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

Maybe we can all drive from one retail park to another, and from one suburban pub to another. We could just shut down the city centre, and dissolve Limerick as a city and as a community. I think most people would disagree with you.

We don’t need to drive from one place to another: Messrs Amazon’s drivers will deliver the stuff to us after we’ve bought it on tinterweb. We don’t need intermediate merchants carrying expensive stocks of (for instance) CDs, washing machines or books: we can read the reviews online and get the stuff delivered.

On the other hand, we don’t need to “shut down the city centre” and I don’t argue that “we” should do so. I simply say that (a) if, as I believe, the economic justification for the continuing existence of some cities is weakening, many folk will just stop going there and some cities, some towns, some advance factories etc can decay gracefully without anyone’s having to do anything expensive to shut them down and (b) unless you can think of an economic justification for investment in the infrastructure of a former century, you are going to waste a lot of money trying to prop it up.

@rumpelstiltskin wrote:

You seem to think that “leisure activities” encompasses in its entirety students sitting in cafes and vomiting on doorsteps. […]

Actually, I was hoping to provoke you into coming up with a set of economic activities that would justify investment in a city and that could not be done more cheaply or more effectively elsewhere. I have, alas, failed in this: you don’t seem to have any idea of what sort of activities could be laid on that would provide a return on the investment. And you have extraordinarily confused ideas about attracting tourists.

bjg

No, you’re right. We’ll attract plenty of tourists by abandoning the city centre. It’s literally impossible to imagine how a city could be viable in the 21st century – every other city in Europe is already dead.

@Tuborg wrote:

I think you are overestimating the extent of the so called retail core if that’s even an appropriate term to use given the paucity of the current offering. Realistically Limericks shopping district currently stretches from the O’Connell Street/Roches Street junction down as far as Denmark Street along with some of the adjoining streets and laneways. Hardly what you would call expansive!

If you recall, up until 5 or so years ago Rutland Street and Lower Patrick Street were lined with a variety of businesses; retail stores, cafes etc before the misguided decision to remove the occupants before redevelopment plans were even finalised. So this portion of the city centre was/is very much part of the commercial zone.

In reality though the quality of Limericks retail line-up has evolved disappointingly since the Cruises Street project opened over 20 years ago now. William Street for example never capitalised on the momentum created along with the increased footfall in its vicinity and the opportunity to freshen up the street was lost. It has stagnated at best since.

Similarly with O’Connell Street we saw only modest investment in retail premises even throughout the excesses of the “boom” years. The former Sony centre outlet has been vacant and up for sale for a number of years at this stage. The former Fergusons chemist across the street likewise. The calibre of many businesses on the street currently is poor and significant renovation and possibly amalgamation of properties is needed to attract new, higher quality tenants. There’s no sign that this is forthcoming and you can’t exactly usurp the existing occupants either.

Yeah I agree with everything you said here, which is why I think utilising the site for retail would be wrong. I would assume that any new retail on the site would be high profile nationally, like Victoria Square, Dundrum TC or at the very least, Opera Lane. The council would be looking to attract major names and at least one department store. Should they succeed then the area, which once housed local stores and businesses that would really only attract local customers, would become the new core of the city. The powers that be would be more in line to focus on amalgamating and enhancing properties on Cruises St., William St., and O’Connell St. As we have seen from the Opera Centre site it is possible to put large development sites together in the city.

You might not be a fan but in fairness that City Central development along with the pedestrianisation scheme completely revitalised Bedford Row. It brought high quality retail and residential accommodation along with a five star hotel to the city centre on what was a neglected and decaying site. Do you remember how dingy it looked previously? Take a look at the attachments below. :thumbdown:

The project also attracted the first significant batch of retailers in to the city centre for many years, most of them not represented in Limerick previously. All the units are fully let too. It’s clear that in order to entice quality brands in to the city centre accommodation of an appropriate size and standard is required. I believe a project similar to that on Bedford Row could work well for the opera centre site. By bringing in fresh blood and more footfall one would hope that it would provide a knock-on benefit to the city centre at large.

Just to be clear here, of course Bedford Row is a million times better than it was, I would just prefer if the design involved some variety from unit to unit so that it gives the illusion of a vibrant and interesting street. And I use the word illusion because although it is much nicer, it is still a pretty boring street, both to look at and to pass through.

I’m not convinced that the opera site is best suited to a large office development. Sure it might bring further employment in to town but large scale office blocks generally provide quite a dead, dull street presence and won’t exactly draw people in to the city except for the employees obviously. An element of office space could of course be accommodated but I wouldn’t like to see the majority of the site given over to it.

There are other locations that are more suitable for this purpose. The half built GPO/hanging gardens development which is in NAMA was to contain a large amount of office space over 6 floors or so. It should be a priority to have this completed at the earliest opportunity. The former ESB building and eventually Henry Street Garda headquarters provide another large scale redevelopment opportunity on the quays along with the portion of the docklands that SFPA are looking to offload. A significant amount of office space is currently vacant in the building at the corner of Thomas Street/Catherine Street as well.

Maybe you’re right. I suppose the site is too big to devote itself exclusively to retail. office, or residential. A good mix of each would probably be the best bet.

I admire you optimism but I wouldn’t hold my breath. I’ve lost count of the number of glossy city centre strategies and development plans that have been released over the years. They’re hardly worth the paper they’re printed on. This will simply be a regurgitation of the same aspirational spiel which is churned out endlessly and that the City Council have neither the ability nor the will to follow through on!

You have to be optimistic in this country as it would be all too easy to become a cynical, pessimistic old man with the state of the country. I am more positive about the upcoming plan because unlike the last masterplan for Arthur’s Quay, the council actually own the site and seem to have a driven and ambitious new city manager.

Bedford Row may be better than it was, but as architects the discussion goes beyond economic benefits and attracting retail. Bedford Row is not a good public space, you don’t need an architect to tell you that.

My own view is this.
I see no sense in having a (seriously) third level college in the city centre.
This is the wrong place for students due to city distractions, more expensive accommodation, no sports amenities at hand and no scope for that campus to expand.
Neither is it desirable to have one end of the city swarming with students most of the day.
The raising of this idea of a UL city campus seemed at that time very sudden to me.
It was almost like someone doing some commercial lateral thinking : get the students in and fleece them of their pocket money — that’ll keep the existing city traders going.

To me, The Granary ought be preserved. God knows the people in the 1980s put enough effort into its remodelling. Personally, I’d get rid of the Trinity Rooms, Shannon Development, NSAI, etc and turn the whole building into a proper modern city library, mediathèque, language learning labs and local studies museum. Local business/industry badly need a reference library plus patents/trademarks search facility and I see this part of it paying for itself. Maybe you could also have a geneology section which could be self-supporting.I mourn the loss of the WorkSpace units but accept that this facility may be placed elsewhere if that plot is needed for other more pressing facilities.
The old pharma preparation unit to the right of The Granary and the old Georgians on Patrick Street, these must be sorted out. What to do with them, I’m not sure.
But a city campus here is daft.

The go ahead has been given for the Revenue staff to be transferred to a new office building on this site. It is planned that up to 800 staff will be rehoused by 2018.