tall buildings

I think Dublin needs more height. Much more. While I can see an argument for keeping historic areas at an “appropriate” height, areas where significant amount of new development is happening, such as the docklands, shouldn’t be subject to that limit.

Unfortunately this doesn’t seem to be happening. Didn’t the former national conference centre have half its height lopped off.

I believe there’s a tallish building planned for over Tara Street station, but I think it’s still no taller than Liberty Hall.

The sky’s the limit, or should be.

James

i believe once we have blown-up ballymun the collective city consciousness will have lost its stigma about high rise. hopefully.

This is a topic which I always rant on about. I agree Dublin needs taller buildings …but not in historical low-rise parts of the city….but in existing open spaces and brownfield sites that offer such opportunities such as Dublin Docklands.
It is ridiculous the way every new building has to adhere and is given the stumpy, lopped off appearance. Tall visually exiciting buildings/structures should be built where they could be appropriate and appreciated, not run of the mill 2/3 storey regular hum drum. Substantial buildings should be the order of the day.
Dublin is a changing city, it should reflect this. It is not a Florence or Venice, which still remain overall, intact cities of the Renaissance. Hopefully the Dublin Spire will set a precedent and change this stupid mindset that exist among the ignorant and frightened.

Soo, what exactly has prevented “height” in construction here?

And does this city build underground at all?

Re underground, the whole underground scene of dublin at https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?s=&threadid=514

Prevention of height? In a nutshell: lack of money for many years, and now conservation concerns.

Thats an interesting question: What is the reason behind this irrational fear of tall buildings? Why did they build Liberty Hall and then stop at that?

Paul, thank you for the link back to “underground”. Although I’m tempted to nickname it “gopher people”! Much discussion of tunnels, tunneling, passages, connections between buildings – which is absolutely great.

Yet, I was thinking more of space that functions as additional operational space for businesses or carparks. Not sure what you get when you blast down here – viking horns, sludge, water, solid rock?

In my neighborhood at home, a primarily residential area, there is a lovely, yet out-of-place, wedge shaped office building. It’s about 12 stories tall or so, but has this 6+ floor carpark underneath. You’d never expect it from everything else that is around it. A very tidy use of space!

Originally posted by StephenC
Thats an interesting question: What is the reason behind this irrational fear of tall buildings? Why did they build Liberty Hall and then stop at that?

After Liberty Hall, O’Connell Bridge and Hawkins House were built, Concerns were raised as to the height a building could be built so the Corporation introduced a plot:height ratio that killed most tall buildings dead in the water

The one thing I would do in this city if given the chance, above absolutely everything else, is the demolition of O’ Connell Bridge House, I’d do it with my bare hands if offered. It is the most inappropriate building in the city, not necessarily the worst looking, (although it is very bland) but the worst positioned. It’s nothing short of disgraceful, slap bang in the middle of the low rise city centre. And whats best of all, is that it’s developer, John Byrne, had the cheek to propose a twin, mirror image of the building across the road on the site of the now ‘reconstructed’ Ballast Office!

I have a soft spot in my heart (or should that be head) for O’Connell Bridge house – don’t ask me why but it’s very much a part of Dublin – wish they’d reopen its original roof top restaurant though

Lord, now I’ll have to ask about who has a roof I can get on? And I haven’t even finished finding out if there are functional spaces underground. So much to find out…

Why don’t they open these places??? Surely a restaurant/bar would bring in more income for such a building than office space. O’Connell Bridge is on my “gain entry for photographs” list once the weather picks up. That and Georges Quay…

fjp

Even though I hate the place, I also tried to gain access to shoot (with a camera, you’ll understand) O’ Connell Street, but the place is still empty, even Q Bar knew nothing at all about thousands of tons of concrete over their heads. Very mysterious…

Did you suceed??? And I have to say that from some angles I actually like it. The top’s cool, and it looks great from Liberty Hall, but just looks a bit funny from the Quays.

Still though, I’d probably bitch if they tried to take it down…

fjp
(confused)

have they still not let that place? it must be at least a year since its refurbishment was finished ? …

It’s not the worst in the world, esp after it’s refurbishment, it is clad in very pricey Portland Stone after all, but still, its the only tall building in the entire ‘real’ city centre, the Grafton Street – College Green – Westmoreland – O’ Connell Bridge/Street axis and destroys the entire character of the area, and dosn’t leave the visitor with the impression of being in an historic low rise city, which Dublin is. (I don’t object to tall buildings in the Docklands)

No, fjp, I did’nt get access, I think a tenant has been aquired recently though, as the big advertisment for it’s letting on the front of the building has come down. When I was there before Christmas, the entrance gates looked closed for months, with piles of rubbish behind them. There was also a boarded up window that had been broken. I had to make do with the Ballast Office (or rather it’s replica) and the 17th floor of Liberty Hall, which was great.

Some facts about O’ Connell Bridge House:

It was built in only 2 years 1963-65, ‘designed’ by the notorious Desmond Fitzgerald (Greg Fs friend)

It cost £1,000,000 to build, an astronomical sum at the time.

It was finished in the same year as Liberty Hall (1961-65), & even though it is substantially lower in height, it contains a lot more floor area.

Over 50 men were kept employed by it’s construction.

It consumed 500 tons of steel, 90 tons of reinforcind bars, and a mere 7,500 tons of concrete, as well as the Portland Stone cladding.

It stands 11 storeys high, towering to 145 feet or 48m, and was taller than Nelson’s Pillar at completion.

At one time, the advertisment on it’s facade earned nearly as much income for it’s owner, John Byrne, as the entire 45,000 sq feet of space inside the building!

Even though at the time, every office bldg was required to have a parking space for every 500sq feet, and O’ Connell Bridge House would have required 90 spaces, this was blatently ignored and so, not only was it built, it was built with no spaces at all!

Planners were bitterly opposed to it’s construction, and the demolition of the existing fine & very grand bldg built by the Wide Streets Commissioners, but it is belived this was waved over because of John Byrne’s long friendship with Charlie Haughey, then Minister for Justice.

An extention was added, hence the demolition of more historic bldgs on D ‘Olier Street in 1968.

The only benifit that Dubliners ever derived from it’s construction, the rooftop restaurant, was closed, just a few years into it’s life, in order to create an office suite for it’s owner on the top floor.

As mentioned before, a mirror image of the building was ludicrously proposed on the site of the Ballast Office, Dublin’s answer to the Twin Towers, to stand guard over O’ Connell Bridge, but was thankfully, firmly rejected this time by planners.

Oh, and the mast on the roof was another little money spinner for John Byrne, at the expense of the city’s appearance.

John Byrne is still alive today, as fit as ever in his 80s. He was in the news recently, in court over someone he was taking a case against, can’t remember what though.

John Byrne doesn’t sound like a very nice man…

O’ Connell Bridge House only recently got a make over …….and although an anchor point here on the bridge it is a great pity that it is’nt a bit more stylish. There is too much clutter on the top and the new glass is rather dull. I thought the make over would have been a lot better. Would the wanting Liberty Hll please get a make over too….how about some sexy reflective shiney glass for all, (people realize now how good the spire looks in the sunshine with it’s reflective surface….. the penny has dropped).
A restaurent on the top of O’Connnell Bridge is a brilliant idea …(any entrepenuers out there with lots of money to splash about in their hometown rather than abroad)….I bet the restaurent concept with a good marketing edge would be a tremendous success. Give that loopline bridge a makeover too. This area could really look great from the Ha’penny or Millennium bridge …especially at night if it were all lit up too.

The problem wirth Liberty Hall is that it has reflective glass…. originally it had non-reflective glass and seemed transparent.

Just to add …..but jesus are’nt appartment sizes here absolutely laughable….really. Even the most expensive and latest ‘La-De-Da’ ones on the market. Why are people so willing to spend their money on such mediocre dross.
Ever see abroad in Europe or the USA appartments with double doors, high ceilings, spacious rooms, etc… aka room to breathe and live. You see the like in the movies.
They are only convienences that they build here…….somewhere for someone to stay whilst they go to work.
(The height factor is a cause here too).

I agree but the problem I have always found with property in Ireland is that there is absolutely no variety or choice. All houses look the same. All apartments look the same (at least internally). It basically a case of developers providing the lowest common denominator (and calling it ‘stunning’, ‘majestic’, ‘its not an apartment its a lifestyle’) and everyone laps dem up for de kids so dat dey can afford to get on de property ladder.

Its so thoroughly depressing. We all aspire to have a little Georgian pad in Ranelagh because they have high ceilings and large windows and actually resemble somewhere you would want to live. Unfortunately there is limited stock available and it costs a fortune.

I have friends living in the Old Distillery off Smithfield. Lokks okay from the outside although it is being let go a little…poor estate management (have we been there before!). Inside there are ‘delightful’ shoe boxes with their cardboard walls and their windowless bathrooms with noisy automatic extractor fan and obligatory yellow water stain on the ceiling. Utterly predicatable…and best of all €1,200 a month!

The thing that amazes me are friends who buy (they’re all at it thses days) and ask with joyous expectation on their eyes..’what do you think’! They are generally visibly hurt when I say’It the SAME as everyone elses!’

Sad thing about the height discussion is that we now have the spire at 120 metres but a relatively small city such as Winnipeh has two buildings higher:

TD Centre 140.0 m
Richardson Building 124.1 m

Oh dear. Liberty Hall originally had proper, transparent glass, but a bomb exploded outside the building in the 70’s, and shattered most of it’s windows. Hence they were replaced with the present ghastly mirror glass. Some of the original glass can still be seen in a column of windows stretching down the entire centre of the building to it’s rear, which was’nt affected by the blast. It can be seen from Abbey Street.

Ah…. that’s what is wrong with the Liberty Hall…I bet they replaced only the windows that were broken with reflective glass….. hence it’s lack of uniformity. I bet those warped window frames need replacing too.

I thought Liberty hall’s windows used that adhesive ‘pretend’ mirror glass? Is that not the case?

Liberty Hall could look excellent if the original clear glass was restored and the facade given a general sprucing up. The floor that they did fix up as part of the theatre venue in the ajoining Connolly Hall looks very nice, please finish the job.

And reopen the viewing platform too, could be a nice little earner for the comrades and bretheren in SIPTU – there ain’t no bombs round these parts no more.

interestingly there are two planning applications in the north dock area for relatively tall buildings, a nine story residential building on the corner of west road and sheriff street and a twelve story residential, office and resteraunt on the corner of castleforbes st and sheriff street. these seem to lie outside the ddda remit in that they seem to require planning permission from dcc.

Hmmmm.

Interestingly, in the Destruction of Dublin, Frank Mc Donald describes how the mosaic tiles on the solid elements of Liberty Hall (under the windows) are peeling off, are dirty and overall how the building looks shoddy.

This was written in 1984!!!

If snazzy transparent, green tinted glass was used, and attractive sandstone effect panels were used to clad the building (like Iveagh Court on Adelaide Road) it would look extremely well, and become a decent landmark building, instead of the withering pile it currently is.

12 and 9 storeys Notjim….I’m having a nosebleed at the thoughts …but no one will never survive such high attitudes……heh heh ….only kidding! ………and yep indeed Graham Liberty Hall definitely needs restoration or a make over/upgrade especially if they are to build that new Tara Street train station across the Liffey

What happened to the lighting on Liberty Hall. A couple of years ago the lighting of the crown of the building was fixed up and it looked wonderful at night with the zig-zaggy crown floating over dublin. Recently (this winter) the lights seem to be left turned off of else only a few bits turned on. What’s happening?

greg f, not big i know, but relatively big. the applications are interesting for two reasons, the nine story block is actually in the east wall and adjoins cottages and the 12 story is in the ddda area but is still going through the dcc, is this because it exceeds the heights given in the masterplan. 9 stories at the edge of the east wall, it would make obvious how stupid 6-7 along the liffey is.

“corner of west road and sheriff street”?

Should that be corner of east road and sheriff st, or west road and ossary?

Funny you ask about the lighting ew, as I thought the same. So when I was up on the viewing gallery I checked it out.

There’s about 10 floodlights on the floor of the gallery, which are supposed to be directed up onto the ‘frilly roof’, but quite a few of them are just lieing on their sides, others are’nt plugged into the outdoor sockets provided, and its likely that half of the bulbs are blown as well. Indeed they are so shoddly installed that I could lift and move them around to fit my tripod in the most convinient place! But for the betterment of the city, and being the civic minded kind of person that I am, I walked around, turning the lights into their correct positions. Unfortunatly, I forgot to bring a couple of 800w bulbs along!

That’s so shoddy. I see what you mean though, at:

http://www.fantasyjackpalance.com/fjp/photos/city/0codec/liberty-hall-016.html

It is very effective when it works though isn’t it. A box of bulbs and 20 minutes would get it back to rights.

And Dr. J actually just smashed that section of railing away to get a better fit for the tripod….

fjp

(joke)

fjp, just looked at your link. just so you’re aware – liberty hall isn’t the tallest building in Ireland. That’s down in cork in the middle of a field.

sorry, east road and sherrif street.

I nearly fell through that hole, when gawking at Croke Park!!

Tallest bldg is Cork City/County Hall, the second worst bldg in Ireland after Hawkins House. It was built just a couple of feet taller to beat Liberty Hall, with all that ‘real capital of Ireland’ crap going on.

Oh, that rear shot of Liberty Hall on fjp’s link shows the original glass aformentioned.

Me and being wrong about buildings and stuff go waaaaaaaay back.

I might update the page, but perhaps I’ll leave my inaccuracy there to maintain a firm inter-city rivalry between the Dublin and Cork parties…

fjp

(I can’t find a photo of that cork city hall, anyone got one??)

Hmmm… have a look at http://www.skyscrapers.com and goto the section on ireland.

Shock Horror Cork is no longer the real capital! Limerick is!
Yes the Claion Hotel is 67m
Cork County hall is 64m
And poor oul’ Liberty hall is only 59m.

Also Belfast:

Windsor House =80_m
Belfast City Hospital =76_m
Churchill House =66_m
Belfast Hilton =63_m
BT Riverside Tower = 62_m
06.Divis Tower = 61_m

It also lists some of the proposals for Dublin. The south bank tower would have been the first “official” skyscaper in ireland at 122m (if it ever got going). And Sir John Rogerson’s Quay might just about make the grade at 96m. In any case it now seems unlikely that either will be built as the towers had a high office content and the market is saturated. Another thing that might upset the guys in Zoe/DunloeEwart/OMS is the U2 tower which will be right next door….

Jesus.

County Hall would certainly take down Liberty Hall in a fight. Tough looking building. Limerick’s clarion thingy looks twee by comparison, although that’s the good thing about bonkers ugly buildings – they’re rarely boring.

I’ll send GoLive on a little “find and replace” sometime soon…

fjp

If the windows were transparent they would probably need blinds which would look terrible. Also we would be able to see the stacks of papers, folders etc that typically are piled up in offices. (just look at the new office windows to the right of Connolly St).

I agree that the windows at the moment look a bit tired but maybe if they were replaced with new frames and proper mirrored glass they would reflect the sky and river and look quite good. O2 (Digifone House – Bord Na Mona) on Baggot St as an example!!

I really like the mosaic wave at the top of the building especially when its lit up at night. SIPTU are doing some renovation at the moment. I think the attached theatre is finished. Dunno what their plans are for the rest!

The Liberty Hall theatre is beautiful. I was shocked by how good its foyet looked when I was in there, and it has an amazing 60s curving staircase (that someone probably wanted to replace in the eighties).

These buildings need to be given time to firstly become out of date, and then develop into classics. That crazy Town Hall in Cork looks very serious/ugly/grim/powerful, but it’s still an impressive structure and statement of its times. It shouldn’t be refaced or renovateed (I saw plans) just because it isn’t cool in 2003. People will probably think it’s super-duper in 2030, since no-one will EVER have the balls to do anything like that again…

So now I’m saying leave the ugly buildings in place. Except for those ESB buildings, which were just uber-silly (or in the uber-wrong place).

fjp

I think the problem with County Hall Cork, and it’s kind is that they were left fall into complete disrepair – the whole glasshouse renovation plan has come about because 40 years have passed without a single repair job on the building – concrete columns were in threatening to fall off it – plus I read it was “unenvironmentally friendly” which probably means Cork Co Co were spending a fortune to heat it.
I don’t think County Hall would look to bad if it was cared for over the years. Although why is it in the middle of a field?!?
I think Central Bank, Dame St is looking v.grimey these days. County Hall of the future?

I won’t hear a bad word spoken about the glorious Central Bank!!!

“RAAAARRRRR” (says the central bank)

fjp

Hey – respect to CB!

All I meant was I’d hate to see Dublin’s finest turn out like Corks… er – finest???

Yeah, It’d beat you in a fight any day.(then again any building would) Location aside, its one of Ireland’s finest buildings, and actually has stood the test of time, looking quite minimalist and fashionable today.

Originally posted by CJ_Murphy
Hmmm… have a look at http://www.skyscrapers.com and goto the section on ireland.

Shock Horror Cork is no longer the real capital! Limerick is!
Yes the Claion Hotel is 67m
Cork County hall is 64m
And poor oul’ Liberty hall is only 59m

They are wrong. This came up on P45 so I checked with Murray O’Laoire…. Clarion Hotel is 56m and they’re the architects..

Yeshhhh – the final height of the Clarion wasn’t really known as it was being built – they were hoping to come out no 1 – but at time of completion came out no 3 (Georges Qy wasn’t quite there yet). So dreary County Hall is still the best we can do – sigh. It’s extension/refit is finally about to get under way though…

Saw in the Indo property section an article about plans for a 19 storey residential block in (gasp) Ballymun!!! No seriously. It’s propsed for the north end of the area – and the height can go ahead as it’s location means it doesn’t interfere with the light in the new town (I’m paraphrasing here). does anyone know anything about this – or what it will look like.

[later says:ooops! sorry just noticed another thread referring to this project…]