Senator McSharry – defender of democratic purity

he’s a senator – hardly a symbol of democracy anyway seeing as only a small fraction of the country can vote for them….

i for instance are neither a farmer nor a graduate of an NUI college or Trinity… so do not have a voice in the senate

In a word – Twat

Why was ABP formed – because of arsehole politicians (Jimmy Tully) interfering in the planning process and making decisions that did no-one favours in the long run. Who tried to abolish ABP the last time? Yes it’s everyone’s favorie tax cheat and crook Ray Burke.

In a phrase – Fuck off Marc

Our Mark is one of Berties ‘Nominees’ to the Senate Commerce and Industry panel.

So he unlike the executives of APB or An Taisce has never faced any form of election, he has simply been given a job on the basis of his fathers distinguished record.

Just for the record the councillors who voted mid development plan and mid planning application were all Fianna Fail & Fine Gael councillors.

With local politics like that it is no wonder that nothing gets built down there.

So if you live in Sligo and want a national politician vote Mark McSharry his local organisation works in completely the opposite direction. He can then chastise everyone else for you.

Originally posted by Rory W
because of arsehole politicians interfering in the planning process and making decisions that did no-one favours in the long run.

You think it’s not happening now??

In rural Ireland the local politicians / estate agents / development interests are running the show. And they can’t bear anybody interfering with their ability to influence the outcome of planning decisions. This is why they attack an taisce all the time.

i agree. but if he called for more openess then he may be taken seriously. whereas now he is seen as a fruit

Sorry Lads , you may be right about the Senator and I don’t know at all anything about his or Irish Politics but you are also wrong. The scheme that was knocked back by An Bord Pleanala on the recommendation of An Taisce was an adjoining scheme to ours and as a consequence the whole city centre site has been fucked.

Again two years of work down the drain. I’m damned if I know how anything gets built in Ireland, the developer of the adjoining site that was refused was in consultation with An Taisce for two years. I did not like his proposal myself and would agree with many of the points An Bord Pleanala raised when they refused to up hold consent but planning consent was given and on that basis we committed to making an application ouselves which we have now had to withdraw. Our client has lost thousands of pounds. The whole system is weird

Nah Devin – not to the same degree as the past when the Minister for the Environment would regularly over-ride decisions that had been made by the local planning office and local council (following representations by developers!!!) and give permissions based on his own judgement.

Hence ABP was set up

Still think the guy’s a twat

(PS what did they find was so bad with your scheme alan?)

Nothing bad about our scheme fortunately Rory, but we were depending on the adjoining development to make a connection through from one side of the town to the other and new wynd and pedestrian walkway ……….the link has been lost and now both projects have been scuppered. The adjoining developer has written in the local press that he is so annoyed at the way he has been treated that he’s finished with the whole thing and is walking away. That leaves us unable to unlock the potential of the site and get our own project off the ground.

It may be as a consequence of what happened in the recent past with the brown envelopes in Ireland but the heritage organisations have to realise that commercial development is not a tainted excercise or that it is wrong for a developer to be able to make money……..it’s how the world goes round.

We as architects and the public have to enable it to be realised but in the most sensitive way….it’s that collaboration that’s missing

Rory W, I don’t know what to say to you, except you are very naieve if you think this is the case. You are referring to a pre-celtic tiger period about which there is no comparison with the present day level and quality of development.

Just look around you. The suburban housing estates tacked onto almost every town and village in the country (esp. in leinster) and the 18,000 one off houses built every year clearly show that development in Ireland is led by the individual (who has lobbied their politician like crazy) and is not planning or community-led.

Did you know, for example, that in some local authorities up to 25% of councillors are auctioneers or estate agents who have (or their clients have) an interest in lots of different issues within their decision-making power? Section 147 of the Plan. & Dev. Act 2000 requires a declaration of interests by local councillors and by management and planning staff – there is serious non-compliance with this requirement. (The Irish Planning Institute have raised concerns about this issue)

Last year, a small group of Mayo and Galway people who were linked to a developer, Thistlewood Holdings, joined An Taisce with the intention of electing themselves onto An T’s national council – basically they wanted to try’n subvert the objectives of An Taisce. The developer’s website claimed its speciality was “sites where planning permission is no longer possible, lakeshore locations and dwellings suitable for long-distance commuting” The sheer arrogance of this group!! and it was An Taisce who received the bad press for refusing them membership!!!

Kerry is the most extreme example planning farce in Ireland, where massive-scale lobbying of councillors for section 140 motions so that 5-bed. dormer-georgian bungalows could be built in areas of ‘outstanding natural beauty’ meant that planning collapsed earlier this year. What a country!

with respect Devin, you’re not reading what I’ve written. At present, there is no dialogue. An Tiasce’s reaction and An Bord Pleanala’s decisions can not be driven by what’s happened in the past. Commercial development is legitimate, so is the need for regional authorities to provide housing.

The planning authorities in Sligo want to do the best they can and are commited to their town, as much as An Taisce

It is also legitimate for a person who owns land to want to build on it.

That’s because I was not replying to your post, but to the previous one.

Nobody is saying commercial development is not legitimate, and that is the no. 1 myth about heritage organisations (that they are against development). On the contrary most want to see excellent development that benefits the environment & soceity. Sadly there’s only a tiny minority of that in Ireland – & most of it is featured in the pages of the yearly architectural awards journals.

As far as I remember, the An Taisce spokesperson – quoted in the paper at the time your development was refused – acknowledged that you had done good work in Scotland and elsewhere, and made it clear that this was not about architecture or development per se, but that the proposal was out of scale for a historically sensitive area of Sligo Town.

You are throwing up details here in support of your development such as: “we were depending on the adjoining development to make a connection through from one side of the town to the other and new wynd and pedestrian walkway ……….the link has been lost and now both projects have been scuppered”. What is anybody supposed to make of that who hasn’t analysed the relative planning applications, doesn’t know the site or doesn’t even know Sligo town?

Probably like most people who post on this forum, the odd time I am in Sligo I notice that the place sorely needs some good architecture and urban design. Most of that stuff that was put up along the Garavogue in the ’90s was total muck under the guise of ‘urban renewal’ – really just apartments for the young people to live in for a year or two before going off to build their bungalow.

After your development was refused by ABP, you were posting up various views of the scheme here and everybody was going ‘aw, what a shame’ and ‘aren’t an taisce evil?’ But its not just about feckin architecture – the whole thing has to be looked at! As it states in the above article posted by Vinnyfitz, appeals against the development by An Taisce and others were upheld by An Bord Pleanala because it did not respect the the architectural characteristics of conservation areas outlined in the Sligo and Environs Development Plan, and that this development plan – aimed at protecting the medieval part of Sligo – had been approved by elected members of Sligo Borough Council, and not by An Taisce.

I would love to see GM & AD do something in this town, and I hope something can be worked out for that site eventually.

Devin ….read the postings please.

It is not our scheme that was refused by An Bord Pleanala but an adjoining developer , after getting planning permission and two years of discussion with An taisce.

This has nothing to do with our scheme design but has forced the withdrawal of our proposals because we were relying of the adoining developer making a connection wirh our site and creating a new pedestrian link through the town,

While I have empathy with An Bord Pleanala’s comments regarding the neighbouring developers proposals, such a heritage, conservation focused attitude does not take into account the need to make the environment compatible with today’s modern living, particularly the need to service the site and car parking.

I have just come back from Venice, in some places as you may know there is just 3 metres between 6 storey houses and they look into each other, peoples laundry is stretched over and bloomers , size 48 y front’s and tea towels are on show. Absolutely charming you may think but totally unworkable today.

Consulation and the reconciliation of the requirements of roads, planners, service engineers, water boards blah blah blah with the conservationists who want to recreate the historic footprint is needed ……that’s all I’m saying

Oh…………….. and even the most eloquent word picture, like the Sligo Environs plan won’t do it or An Taisce’s wish list.

You need hard edged physical masterplans that everyone can sign up to. That’s the only way to pull it off and you need to know the town……..not throw sugar lumps at it from Dublin

Pardon my confusion with the various plans, permissions & refusals for that site, as I work on planning in Dublin.

I assure you that the An T. person who made the submissions knows Sligo inside out.

Ok Devin………we’re all interested in the same thing. It’s how to get there that’s at issue.

It was’nt Ian Lumley then?

So just because you have a difference of opinion with somebody about a building that should be retained in a development site means you consider they don’t know the place?

Ach Devin…I was joking.

Ian Lumley probably knows Sligo like his own back yard, just maybe he has’nt cut his grass in ten years that’s all.

Devin – my point was that ABP was set up specifically to act as the final arbitrator, rather than the Minister for the Environment.

The fact that there is no central plan for development is another matter all together, hence the farce that is Leinster

Originally posted by alan d
Ian Lumley probably knows Sligo like his own back yard, just maybe he has’nt cut his grass in ten years that’s all.

Again, you are simply saying anyone who doesn’t think the site should be developed to your plans is stuck in the past
– and the debate is back to square one

Rory,absolutly spot on,

That change more than anything else has made the difference between ‘serious interference’ and ‘proper planning’ of course some poor schemes will slip through but at least there is an objective and independent 2nd stage adjudicator.

I think that both Alan and Devin are missing the point on An Taisce, it is the function of An Taisce to articulate the ‘heritage perspective’ for schemes, it is up to An Bord Pleannalla to decide which is the over-riding priority, new space or retention of a building.

It would be wrong of An Taisce not to make the case but just because they make a case doesn’t mean that it is automatically the deciding criteria.

Diaspora, my old friend. It’s you who is missing the point.

The heritage perspective is being articulated, without regard to all the physical and tangible considerations that have to be considered. An Taisce, if they are going to be taken seriously by people like me have to know this and not bury their head in the sand

At present, within the existing indigenous housing that makes up the historic footprint. it is possible to make your breakfast, turn on the light switch and stoke the fire without leaving your bed, so small are the houses.

People need to have their bins emptied and have central heating and a place to park their car. Service vehicles, fire engines, ambulances, electricity providers who need 24 hour access need to be accomodated. They need sunlight and air.

The developer needs to make money, unless An taisce can underwrite the work or public funds can be provided………. other wise they won’t do it and why should they?

now, i’m not going to say much as i am well loved by these ‘defenders of our quality of life’….ha,ha…

Originally posted by Devin
Nobody is saying commercial development is not legitimate, and that is the no. 1 myth about heritage organisations (that they are against development). On the contrary most want to see excellent development that benefits the environment & soceity. Sadly there’s only a tiny minority of that in Ireland – & most of it is featured in the pages of the yearly architectural awards journals.

so anything not on the awards list is shit and therefore shouldn’t be allowed…. WHAT!!!!! jesus man, do u actually believe the bollox u are talking.

Originally posted by Devin

As far as I remember, the An Taisce spokesperson – quoted in the paper at the time your development was refused – acknowledged that you had done good work in Scotland and elsewhere, and made it clear that this was not about architecture or development per se, but that the proposal was out of scale for a historically sensitive area of Sligo Town.

ha,ha…enough said…u crack me up devin..u truly do…

Originally posted by Devin

You are throwing up details here in support of your development such as: “we were depending on the adjoining development to make a connection through from one side of the town to the other and new wynd and pedestrian walkway ……….the link has been lost and now both projects have been scuppered”. What is anybody supposed to make of that who hasn’t analysed the relative planning applications, doesn’t know the site or doesn’t even know Sligo town?

i think alan didn’t quite put it strong enough…read and understand before u comment….

Originally posted by Devin

I would love to see GM & AD do something in this town, and I hope something can be worked out for that site eventually.

i must say, nicely sucked up there….u must want to become a politician…VOTE FOR DEVIN!!! ha,ha….

still bitter, i see

not at all…i don’t have to be bitter to see the holes in your argument.

Originally posted by alan d
Diaspora, my old friend. It’s you who is missing the point.

don’t mind Diaspora, he wrote that when he was pissed last night (i know cos i was talking to him earlier)

The heritage perspective is being articulated, without regard to all the physical and tangible considerations that have to be considered. An Taisce, if they are going to be taken seriously by people like me have to know this and not bury their head in the sand

At present, within the existing indigenous housing that makes up the historic footprint. it is possible to make your breakfast, turn on the light switch and stoke the fire without leaving your bed, so small are the houses.

People need to have their bins emptied and have central heating and a place to park their car. Service vehicles, fire engines, ambulances, electricity providers who need 24 hour access need to be accomodated. They need sunlight and air.

The developer needs to make money, unless An taisce can underwrite the work or public funds can be provided………. other wise they won’t do it and why should they?

Seriously though, I don’t think it is fair of you to paint anybody who would like to see that building retained as unrealistic or daft.

France and Britain are full of beautiful historic towns and villages who manage to keep AND use their historic buildings, and get on with modern life with no particular problems.

In my area (dublin city), the planning authority has just produced a study – http://www.dublincity.ie/services/building.htm – on this very subject; Comparing reuse of older buildings with their demolition and new build in environmental, economic and cultural terms. In many of the case studies taken, the report finds in favour of reuse & rehabilitation.

Well yeah, but the area of Sligo we are talking about is derelict, we would be reinstating a historic foot print, that never existed that would not meet the requirements of how people live today.

That is the point I was trying to make with Venice, one of the worlds most beautiful and characterful cities but you could not recreate it Devin because it compromises all and every building regulation and planning policy which currently exists, from light, access, living spaces, servicing…..and I’ll tell you people looking into your bedroom from three metres away would soon get on yer nerves.

Have a great weekend. Diaspora, you too mate.

Originally posted by alan d
Diaspora, my old friend. It’s you who is missing the point.

The heritage perspective is being articulated, without regard to all the physical and tangible considerations that have to be considered. An Taisce, if they are going to be taken seriously by people like me have to know this and not bury their head in the sand

The developer needs to make money, unless An taisce can underwrite the work or public funds can be provided………. other wise they won’t do it and why should they?

Sorry I missed your later post……

But the way it would appear to work is a mix of the following, work being optional because a lot of the time there are decisions that are hard to understand.

1> Heritage considerations are a major factor particularly in regional town centres, it is the function of An Taisce to articulate this in the planning process.

2> Urban design quality is a major consideration and it is up to the architect to articulate this in the form of the drawings. Your scheme had this no question about it.

3> A certain level of construction activity is required to keep the economy turning, but I don’t feel that any particular developer has a right to build for this reason alone.

It is in my opinion a question of balancing the three factors above to get to the bigger picture.

Being completely honest you were treated very badly in Sligo, I have never heard of a ‘protected structure’ being protected whilst a planning application was being assessed.

I very much doubt that the owner of the site would have put forward this scheme had the ‘Teeling House’ been a protected structure when you were retained.

As the entire planning process in Ireland is quasi-legal the principle of ‘precedent’ is binding, it is for this reason that An Taisce would have objected.

Had the Councillors not listed the ‘Teeling House’ I think that your scheme would have been built. If it were not a protected structure I would have been happy to see your scheme built, because Sligo would have had a high quality building and no poorly executed copies would have followed. It would have raised the bar for any town centre development in Sligo.

I am also going to Sligo tonight for the weekend

Lads,

All this sounds very interesting, but to be honest I’m having to imagine the scenario…any chance of before/after drawings being posted…for both schemes? Or is there somewhere I can look at them?

ALAN_D…what was the architectural quality of the first scheme like?…the actual quality…you mention that this area is pretty much

The idea of the second scheme requiring a pedestrian link from the first makes me imagine that the first was on a main street, whereas the second was in backlands. This suggests two things…
1. The urban affect of the first scheme would probably have a large impact on the overall quality/impression of the second (if it is its main access)
2. Quite possibly the first scheme is more important than your scheme from Sligo’s POV as it would be seen/used by more people if it is on a more main street.
3. Therefore your scheme being great simply isn’t good enough reason for the go-ahead for the first scheme…I mean, for all the Planners know, your scheme might never happen for financial reasons or whatever and Sligo would be stuck with the first scheme.

If a building was protechted mid-design, that’s particulary bad luck…I’m a bit rusty here, who lists/delists buildings? Do the councillors have a say??

ALAN_D…if I read correctly, you are working in Scotland, and aren’t Irish? Perhaps just to explain the attitude of some of the others…Ireland has a pretty dreadful attitude to conservation/heritage/environment…refer to the recent posting by DC3…he gets it right…heritage in Rep Ireland just isn’t held in a high place. YOU’RE coming from Scotland/UK where all those things are held in FAR HIGHER esteem than here. Personally I would probably rather see no development happen, than see development happen PURELY BECAUSE THE AREA IS RUNDOWN…ie a ‘something is better than nothing’ attitude. This is just simply incorrect most of the time.

Take for example the Dublin quays…the planners in their wisdom in the 80s/90s granted various ZOE developments that are simply dreadful (some have more-than-Venetian design of windows about 1m away from a wall!). This was done because it was felt that that would ‘bring the area up’. So now, 10/20 years later, we are left with shitty quays that will probably be there for another few hundred years. IF or some of the original buildings had been left, interspersed with good quality architecture, obviously that would have been so much better (the ZOE schemes take up entire city blocks)…or if a whole block of a city, onto its most important aspect (the river) is to taken over by a scheme, the very least that should happen is that scheme should be top class…and that would have happened sooner or later…I would far rather the planners had simply bid their time until a sufficiently decent (i’m not talking world-class or anything here) scheme came along, even if the existing buildings had to deteriorate for another 10/20 years…because it’s going to be around for a LONG LONG time.

Perhaps the same with this case…in 2 years time, another scheme will be submitted, will be far superior, Alan_d’s scheme will go ahead and the citizens of Sligo town will experience quality architecture for the next several generations…for the sake of 2 years or whatever.

The adjoining developer has written in the local press that he is so annoyed at the way he has been treated that he’s finished with the whole thing and is walking away.

Of course he’s going to say that…that’s how things work…getting the people, gets the councillors, gets the pressure on the planners…

As Diaspora says…An Bord Pleanála are grown up boys now…they can make up their own minds…An Taisce simply used their expertise and submitted a report…in a court case, would you expect one side not to have their barrister plead their side of the case? It’s for the judge/jury then to decide. The barrister isn’t the one you should be blaming for a bad decision (as you see it)…that’s the judge. The people to blame are ABP, and whoever decided to suddenly protect the Teeling House…not An Taisce.

Just back from Sligo,

It was great the place has many good things going for it, you really get the feeling that this was once a very important town from the distance of some of the Georgian/Early Victorian terraces that still remain.

Sadly there is also quite a bit of dereliction down there, some stuff that could be restored but some more that appear to have been sites for quite a while.

If McSharry was any use he would have got the local Councillors to fast-track local area plans dealing with each building on a specific basis.

Enjoyed the discussion, alan.

Yeah, it’s pretty good I admit Devin. Somehow I’m still not getting my main point across though.

Yee haw, such a lot of questions and good points made, it’s not our scheme though that had a roasting from An bord pleanala or An Taisce it was a neighbouring developer.

His site joined onto ours and formed half the new route from one side of Sligo to the other, opening up of the historic lanes and the fast track local area plans, Diaspora .

Ours was the beginning of new route but because the neighbouring developement has been knocked back, we have had to withdraw for a second time.

The point is that the neighbouring developer was in discussion with An Taisce, had brought in conservation specialists to handle the difficult negotiations with the conservation lobby, had made concessions and kept buildings originally earmarked for removal, got full planning permission and was still kicked up the arse by An bord Pleanala, and is back to the start……….. without his 200 pounds.

We have also had to go back to the start. Diaspora, how the fuck did it ever get this far?

Oh, and before I forget, this is significant Yee Haw, I think looking at it from a non Irish perspective.

When our neighbour received full planning permission, having been in discussion with An Taisce for two years and made concessions and cut his scheme in half, having been knocked back already over the retention of Teeling House our client has a choice either to forget it and ditch two years of work or re submit our scheme this time with Teeling House retained.

Our client has already spent a considerable amount of money (and I have spent half my life seems like stuck behind a feckin tractor driving from Belfast to Sligo) but decides to re submit, I mean everything looks positive, as far as he and we can tell.

However, the neighbouring developer gets the most critical rejection from an appeal body that I have ever read and officially listed are only two objectors to his scheme , one is a local man whose house will be effected and the other is An Taisce.

It’s like the twilight zone.

http://www.pleanala.ie/REP/206/R206892.DOC

Vinnyfitz, my comment about critical rejection is from a scottish perpective and refers to similar situations in my own country and relevant documents prepared by our own planners and Historic Scotland.

This is the first An Bord Pleanala document I’ve studied and who knows maybe this is quite tame

too much for ya, vinny?