seconds out – round two for Gordon Murray and Alan Dunlop in Sligo
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http://www.irish-architecture.com/buildings_ireland/sligo/sligo/doherty.html
Admitted defeat, can’t make it work after all. Two days travelling to Sligo for twenty minute meeting with the planners and told that it was my drawings that were the problem………not informative enough.
“Maybe our client could make model, come back after the elections”?
Sorry lads and thank you all for your kind words. 🙂
…………well most of you.
Think I’ll try to crack New York instead, Hey Paul how’s the weather in Canada?
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I think that’s an awful shame. It really pisses me off when you see some of the stuff built as infill in Irish country towns. For example Monaghan is desperate for really bad quality buildings which supposedly follow the roofscapes or window line but in reality are huge and clumsy. I liked this scheme for Sligo….
Also I cannot see how these drawings lack information…. Basically the Sligo councillors lack a spine between the lot of them and do not want to rock the boat by giving permission when they could lose their cosy seats….
Seeing as its so close to the townhall, he should find a tenant for Teeling House who wants to open a Sex Shop… that would really bring up the tone of the street – bright pink signage, maybe a flashing phallus shaped sign….
“Sorry, but as we had invested money in the site, we need to recoup our losses. Sexy Inc were looking for a shop site in Sligo and naturally they wanted to be based close to the centre of political power. We couldn’t refuse their money. “
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sw101 yes we’ve been paid for work to date, thanks for your concern.
Diaspora, don’t rub it in mate. If An Taisce had not argued so blindly yet so ignorantly in my view the local politicians would have agreed , we would have consent and would have started on site.
We know and our client also knows that if we were succesful and did get Teeling House off the register of protected structures, An Taisce would appeal and it would go to an bord pleanola and that would add another year on to the process.
The whole system is crazy, the planners and politicians play for time by not giving guidance and our client goes bankrupt or gives in.
Make a model, indeed. What bullshit.
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D’you know LOB, I was sitting behind a feckin tractor on Tuesday for an hour on route to Belfast Airport , my backside nipping, frustration building wondering what the hell I was doing in Ireland after 18 months and having to listen to gobbledegook.
Reading the comments above it occured to me that I really like the Irish.
Thanks lads you’ve made my day.
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………..can’t make the project stack up financially without the new building Fin and keep the quality, of design and materials.
Tried, tried, tried and tried again, just can’t do it.
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If at first…. Gordon Murray and Alan Dunlop back into Sligo Archiseek.com
After a previous refusal and controversy, Gordon Murray and Alan Dunlop have submitted a new planning application for a site on Old Teeling Street, Sligo. The proposal, for local developer Louis Doherty, is for a mixed residential and commercial development, next to the Court House Building. The architects have been working on proposals for the same site for three years and it has been an exhausting process. “This project would provide a successful case study into the difficulties of getting planning permission in Ireland” says Alan Dunlop “our first scheme was very well received by the Council, but we proposed the removal of a building next to the courthouse which had some historic interest. The whole thing got caught up in the current debate in Ireland about the protection of historic structures and dragged on and on, until we twice had to withdraw.”
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Sorry Diaspora and Thomond Park, I missed this over Christmas and Ocean FM has just telephoned me to ask about it.
Thank you . I really appreciate it your comment. Fingers crossed.
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I missed this first (second? third?) time around- looks like a promising scheme.
Two quick questions-
Does the revised proposal now incorporate the protected structure?
Was it the councillors rather than the planners that scuppered it the last time? (One of my pet annoyances is the involvement of councillors in conservation in Ireland.) -
two quick answers.
Yes it incorporates the protected structure.
Events dear boy, events scuppered the schemes. Got caught up in a lot of things happeninging at the same time in Ireland. Protected Structures. National Elections, Local Politics. Debate over Planning Policy. Rural Homes. An Taisce. Scottish Architects being inexperienced in how the planning system worked in Ireland.
That kind of thing
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@alan d wrote:
two quick answers.
Yes it incorporates the protected structure.
Events dear boy, events scuppered the schemes. Got caught up in a lot of things happeninging at the same time in Ireland. Protected Structures. National Elections, Local Politics. Debate over Planning Policy. Rural Homes. An Taisce. Scottish Architects being inexperienced in how the planning system worked in Ireland.
That kind of thing
….. how the planning system worked in Ireland.
didn’t know it worked!!:)
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………..thought it was only Britain and America that was divided by a common language?
operated is better……
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And how did this reversal of furtiune come about Alan – from being in a position where the client ‘tried, tried, tried and tried’ but failed to make it stack up financially?
Is it a change about in their circumstances in which case there’s no need to comment of course, or did you justy ‘tweak’ the project? The main elevation (well what’s now your main elevation :)) has changed anyway…
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Don’t want to get into the An Taisce thing again devin. I lobbied against third party right of appeal in Scotland citing An Taisce as part of the arguement.
Anyway Graham, how can we do it now, well things have changed and I won’t go into them all ( our application is current ) except to say we no longer have to create parking underground or roof garden amenity spaces, , the site is bigger slightly and the rear part now looks onto a new public space. The site next to us is now being more sensitively done by Colin Bell Architects from Sligo, consequently agents are taking a more positive attitute to the market. We are taking a “positive attitute” to our fees due, so that 3 years of work does’nt end up going down the Garavogue in a banana boat.
But , it is still on the edge.
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The last thing anyone wants here is to get side-tracked into discussing something that we have agreed to disagree on; With this type of behaviour http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0112/m3.html on both sides Ireland would be a lot worse off without them [An Taisce]. However I’m not sure if the UK planning system requires third party input given that it is subject to a lot less political interference and planners generally are allowed to get on with their jobs in a manner that allows them to exercise their professional judgement unhindered.
One aspect of the project is unclear to me is the difference in the side elevation between the original as displayed in post 2 and the revised drawing in post 15. In the original plan the form was broken with large areas of glazing emerging from a linear form in a triangular fashion will there be any similar breaks in the revised scheme?
Secondly will the very pleasant amenity/access space in the first proposal be repeated in the second or did this have to be sacrificed?
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We’ll agree to disagree then Diaspora, heaven knows we talked An Taisce to death the last time.
Anyway, there are no longer roof garden amenity spaces, they made the original buildings taller than they needed to be and compromised the courthouse tower. Consequently, overall the buildings are lower.
The development originally proposed for next door was massive and butted up right to our boundary We had to fight for light into the apartments and views out, hence the big windows on post two. The developer would’nt change, there was no need. He was in discussion with the planners and had been for ages and eventually got planning approval.
There was a desire for it from the planners but no meaningful public space at all in the adjacent site , just residue and “civic space” which was really just there practically for a fire engine to turn . After An Bord P knocked back the approval, Sligo brought in an independent Dublin Based company to do a master plan/ redevelopment strategy for the area AND a much more sensitive architect Colin Bell was appointed for next door, which opened up a number of opportunities for everyone.
Anyway, we also took our opportunity to look a fresh at the original design. It was smaller in scale now obviously
but still had to have some prescence, particularly since we were not successful with the removal of Teeling House and give a sense of place. Economically we could not now use the range of materials we initially envisaged So the idea of making a building that looked as though it had been carved out of Sligo limestone was developed. and with a building carved our of rock, you don’t get big windows.How”s that?
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We talked a lot of things to death the last time; I hope this gets built whilst it is not as flambouyant as your initial design it has changed more than sufficiently to address the reasons listed for refusal in the first decision.
Historically the more contemporary retail provision in Sligo hasn’t been of a very high standard architecturally; I hope that this scheme marks a turning point in that regard.
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The only other thing to add is that the submission is not now hand drawn, instead done in cad. One of the difficulties last time was my drawings. So all materials are photographically reproduced etc , etc, etc.
Diaspora, we may not have agreed last time, but I took on board what you were saying, don’t get me wrong.
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Ok Paul – but there was an awful lot of crap posted about An Taisce last time around – lot of it generated by someone supposedly defending An T but actually just protracting the affair. Just want to avoid that!!
Anyway enough. The new scheme looks exciting. I hope it can be pulled off. By god the place needs it.
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@alan d wrote:
The only other thing to add is that the submission is not now hand drawn, instead done in cad. One of the difficulties last time was my drawings. So all materials are photographically reproduced etc , etc, etc. .
The hand drawn images gave a great feel to the other design and gave a really human feel to it] Diaspora, we may not have agreed last time, but I took on board what you were saying, don’t get me wrong.[/QUOTE]
I changed my profile from D to TP last year; I know you weighted what I said at the time and I am glad you took some of it on board; sometimes agreeing to disagree has a higher value.
I would also be interested to gain some insight ito the thinking behind the changed valuation for the site in respect to how much of the uplift is attributable to two complimentary schemes regenerating the micro environment and how much is down to the general explosion in prime retail rents in sizeable regional towns.
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@Devin wrote:
The new scheme looks exciting. I hope it can be pulled off. By god the place needs it.
Agreed. Sligo has looked like a poor brother of post-war Grozny for long enough. Tiem to get things moving there. High Street – Market Street area is largely direlict at this stage. Gateway City my buttocks.
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Have to say, am really excited by the above scheme. I recently visited sligo for the first time and actually looked at the site (had vague recollections of the first scheme). I think the revised design is infinitely more suited to the site than the first one which (i feel) did not have the sensivety to its context that is now present. I was always a fan of the actual layout which i don’t think is forced despite its angular plan. heres hoping!
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the earlier scheme had to incorprate things like roof gardens as amenity spaces munsterman , as I’ve said earlier , it was the only way it could stack up ………to build high.
If we were given the choice as architects, to propose the best and most appropriate density , scale and mix, then what you see on this scheme is what you would have got .
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all additional information required now submitted ( as far as I know ) though who can really tell?
Has to be re advertised as of letter of notification received today Monday 5th June. Four weeks from date of advetrisement. That’s about it Thomond but thanks for remembering.
The adjoining Development by Colin Bell Architects now has planning Permission and is in the four week period required ( I think ) for An Bord P to make a comment.
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Gordon Murray and Alan Dunlop finally get permission in Sligo
http://www.irish-architecture.com/news/2006/000213.html -
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Aye, life is good LOB.
Is it better?………….. well I can draw better now, plenty of practice. Full approval, 28 days for appeal and objections is over, without problem. Consent received this morning,
good ol An Taisce , as you know I’ve always said
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Sometimes in life it is best to agree to disagree,
I am happy for you; it is clear that you invested a lot of effort both professional and emotional into this project and you deserve permission to regenerate this area. I hope that this building does not remain a lone example of good design but is emulated by others within the town.
Well done for perservering
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