ruining pubs

As a constant frequenter of such drinking establishments I could’nt agree more.Many fine Dublin pubs with original bars, fixtures and fittings have been gutted only to be replaced with a poor pastiche. Anyone remember the notable Abbey Mooney on Abbey Street before it was taken over by the Irish Permanent, and remember too the Bailey,the Norseman, the Auld Dubliner,etc…etc….all quintessential aspects of Dublins old character gone. I am totally in favour of redevelopment but these are surely exceptions.

…..to add is’nt it ridiculous to see the original interiors gutted to be replaced with mock Tudor beams,makeshift tables and chairs deliberately aged, fake copper kettles and pots, fake stuffed grouse, fake old prints and photos, distressed woodwork and paintwork, mawkish and badly painted murals …etc….etc….What a sham! what a shame! It was okay when there was only the odd pub here and there with this sort of treatment,it was kind of a novelity, but it seems to be everywhere now. Check out the Bodhran Bar in the Forte Crest Hotel at Dublin Airport…. what a contradiction….a rather horrible plain red brick modern building containing an old world sham of a bar….but the tourists love it. As I always mention here, now and again, anyone remember the Irish House Pub which once stood at Wood Quay..now that was a theme pub.

For those that are interested my dissertation covered just this topic. Although I thouroughly agree with the spirit of the discussion I would warn against using terms such as ‘real’ and ‘fake’. If you are interested go to:
http://members.tripod.com/shane_clarke/Shane6.html

What exactly is the quintessential Irish Bar?
Do you mean saw dust on the floor and barrels for tables. Thats not Irish, its embarassing. I agree with retaining some of the original bars, but not when there simply trumped up sheds. Many of the 20C bars are worth retaining, those of the art deco era etc.
However, people seem to have preconcieved ideas as to how a pub should be, dark, smelly and old. This is ludicrous. Some of the new Dublin bars are fine examples of how an ‘Irish pub’ can be. Maybe this new clean crisp image can be shipped around the world now as the authentic Irish bar.

I agree that the dirty dingy totally unhygenic pubs have to go but obviously Mk you have seemed to have somewhat miss the point. What I am talking about is the gutting of essentially characteristically old Irish pubs,ie the removal of original fine Victorian woodwork,carvings, mouldings, terrazzo surfaces etc….However as I have already before made the point that the newer pubs with the exception of a few are conjuring up an image today of what a quintessential Irish bar did or should look like. And as I have said already many newer pubs are deliberately decorated to look old ie ever see the discolored look on the ceilings to give that smokey look ……as a project maybe visit a few more pubs and see if you can spot the original from the trumped up newer varities. Compare the Knightsbridge (Bachelors walk)to the Stag’s Head or The Long Hall (St.Great Georges Street)

RE:

“Maybe this new clean crisp image can be shipped around the world now as the authentic Irish bar.”

If you mean the nice frosted glass, beechwood and chrome look – that’s already all round britain. I don’t think we invented it!

The International Bar has a sewer of a toilet despite having beautiful woodwork etc. It’s a health hazard. Why we idiots [although I don’t go to pubs much anymore] put up with this shit [literally] is beyond me. I think those pubs are immune to health regulations because they’ve BEEN filthy since before the ’50’s or something.

JJ Smyth’s – another hole. I had to hold my breath before entering the Gents – I nearly aspixiated by the time I got out!

As for the ‘Irish Theme Pub’. Yes, I agree it’s ludicrous: Tearing out the eclectic mix of different trashy styles from over the last 2 centuries including all the 60’s and 70’s kitsch and then re-doing it in MDF [argghh] and polyfiller to look like a stage set in the abbey! The bar area of the Long Hall may be a miish-mash with it’s mirror tiles but at least it’s authentic! It evolved. A record of the establishment’s journey through the decades.

MK, your naievity displays perhaps your young age or your not a frequent pub goer.

An honest opinion does not indicate naivetivity.
John White, Id hoped the irony of the idea of “shipping’ the Irish bar around the world would strike you rather than the literal statement. The shipping of the Irish bar has been a source of embarrassment to Irish design for at least 15 years(an 80s craze that caught on with some sucess) Whenever Ive been to an Irish bar abroad (I usually steer a wide berth), I have always found them, to be corny dark & dirty. If people are going to insist on an Irish Bar in Bali, then at least let it have some inkling toward good design.

The Chocolate Bar was one of Dublins first “trendy ‘pubs and has always had the cleanest toilets imaginable. I agree that some of the newer built pubs have dispicable hygene standards, thus suggesting a general disregard for its human occupants.
I know the Long Hall & The Stags Head well, beautiful & authentic Irish bars. Knightsbridge is a mini tasteless ye olde England, along with other terrible theme pubs, Zanzibar etc.
Some of the new pubs are worth mentioning also, The Life Bar, Gubu & the Morrison Hotel are 3 prime examples fo good design. Not all that is new is bad.
Scotus, try voice your opinion on this with some level of meaningfulness, it will help, I know!

also, Mr. Behan, I agree with you entirely, these mock up olde eire pubs are the absolute bottom of the barrel (forgive the pun).

[This message has been edited by MK (edited 17 October 2000).]

Indeed, I agreed with all the contributers, they have taken the very words from my mouth, it was just that your own comments were quite vague at first but you have since clarified your point and I now understand you.

How to make an Irish pub

1. Get modern building
2. Fill with old rubbish and mock wood beams
3. Add foreign staff who can’t speak english, let alone take an order
4. Give the place a poxy “olde worde Irishe Name” like ‘MacTurcaills of Hoggen Green’ or something equally as bad
5. Play loads of chart hits very loud all night
6. Create Myth filled past about pub and its former owners a la Long stone and Messrs Maguire

et viola An Irish Pub (please note Irish pub is a trademark, copyright 2000).

Seriously though these bars are a joke and give off the image of Paddywhackery that we have tried to get rid of.

It is unfortunate to note, that this Paddywackery is a source of pride for many. ‘The simple fun lovin’ Irish who dont give a damn about the state of their drinking houses, as long as there’s good craic’
These attitudes are the source of inspiraton for the themed Irish bar, & the incredibly low standards of some of the newer bars.

However, it still must be admitted that some well designed bars are cropping up & these pubs should be appreciated rather than lumped with the rest.

RE:

“Maybe this new clean crisp image can be shipped around the world now as the authentic Irish bar.”

If you mean the nice frosted glass, beechwood and chrome look – that’s already all round britain. I don’t think we invented it!

As for the ‘Irish Theme Pub’. Yes, I agree it’s ludicrous: Tearing out the eclectic mix of different nice/trashy styles from over the last 2 centuries including all the 60’s and 70’s kitsch and then re-doing it in MDF [argghh] and polyfiller to look like a stage set in the abbey! The bar area of the Long Hall may be a hodge-podge with it’s mirror tiles etc but at least it’s real. It has evolved. A record of the establishment’s journey through the decades.

As for the filth in the old pubs:
The International Bar has a sewer of a toilet despite having beautiful woodwork etc. It’s a health hazard. Why we idiots [although I don’t go to pubs much anymore] literally put up with this shit is beyond me. I believe those pubs are immune to health regulations because they’ve been filthy SINCE BEFORE the ’50’s or something.

I too don’t want to see the demise of the old pubs, Victorian, ’60s or otherwise but I reckon a lot of people think they’re just unhealthy kips.

JJ Smyth’s is another hole. I had to hold my breath before entering the Gents – I nearly asphixiated by the time I got out!

I agree, the themed pubs lark although on the surface is seen as a bit of ‘craic’ for the tourists but the underlying subtext is that us Paddies are a bunch of ravin’ alcholic lunatics….? It will be good to see if this will be an eternal industry or will it die or even evolve and change with the times to come? It depends on our wealth and drinking habits, I suppose. To add, although I totally agree with all the ‘points’ that have been made but is’nt it great to see the industry thriving, even expanding worldwide (no matter how tacky)……it would be very sad if the case was the very opposite. Just another point to make although I am in favour of new stylish pub designs for 2000AD, however, minimalism in such circumstances can be quite cold, lacking atmosphere.

isn’t minimalism all about abstension really?
does it in all honesty have a place in a drinking hole? personally most minimalist pubs give a licence for pretensiousness.

That’s very true, minimalism in a way could be associated with puritanism……ie the iconoclasm and whitewashing of interior church walls by the Protestants of times past.

The minimalism of todays western world springs from the East. It has nothing much to do with puritanical Calvinism & more to do with Shinto & Eastern philosophy, the work of Tadao Ando etc, the play of light, the honesty of materials and their expression. Minimalism is, contrary to popular belief, very thoughtful and evocative of atmosphere, not the opposite

As the old saying goes:

Tha pictures are better on the radio…

I agree…Minimalism can be seen as quite spiritual, pure and free from clutter.See the mininmalistic Japanese gardens that have just the odd placement of stones set to the backdrop of running water.See Mark Rothgo’s paintings for example or even the Russian Malevich who’s religious paintings comprised of just a black square on a white background. Cool,clean and intellectual but used as a setting for diddly-idle music,flowing beer and rustic types of charaters….well does it work?

you cant have it all, can you?

Minimalism is not just for the intellectuals & those of clean spirit, why not in the pub.

Are we still clinging on to a system of what goes where, with no room to manoevre or change, come on, open up a bit.

I understand the point made, but well it goes back to what has just been said already that the atmosphere can be quite cold and clinical. Tubular steel, bright pine, teak and pale walls….very stylish but!……and it does attract a quite poseurish clientel (Althogh there is nothing wrong with being stylish…tres chique…more please!) Le Corbusier and the Fureys Brothers do they mix? Pubs, taverns and drinking lodges have always had an air of the rusticated rough and ready. A certain cosy homeliness is needed….can we captuure today in super chique modern pubs; the feeling of an open log/coal fire, cushy seats and a warm atmosphere, where the beer flows and the customers of all ages sing with merriment.

Well this brings us back to the basic fundamentals of how some buildings succeed and some buildings fail. I mean a house perhaps should look like a ‘homely house’ and not a factory, a hotel should resemble a hotel and not a hospital or utility room, government buildings should perhaps have an air of importance and not be just an insignificant office block…..etc. However what did Le Corbusier say again ‘the house is a machine for living in’….which was quite successful on the continent of Europe but not in Britain or Ballymun, Dublin where the ‘barbarian’ Irish could not grasp the new concept.

Maybe it is simply a matter of personal taste. Some people want a cosy tavern, others want sleek & ultra trendy. Both styles and atmospheres are equally valid, depending on the desires of the clientelle.

Well, then have they done their market research? Have they discovered that in a booming economy what we want is the Chique, the sophisticated, the pub that looks like our workplace? A pub which co-ordinates nicely with an Audi TT rather than a Dubliner’s record.

I think the former scenario caters to the people with lots of dosh!

My name is Rory,
I am a third year architecture student who is in the process of writing a dissertation titled
‘Architecture of Ireland and its exports’,

Basically what I am writing about is the current rejuvenation schemes that are taking place at present, but also trying to highlight the architecture that is being exported in the form of O’neill’s bars and the like.

I myself am Irish, and throughout my teens have visited Temple Bar and its surrounding areas, and have many a time been on the beer in that area. I have been facinated by the architects who took part in the design of scheme and also interested in the influences that are evident in their ideas.

On the other hand I have worked in mant Irish bars in England and Spain, and realise that we are exporting a stereotypical image of Ireland through rough and shoddy pubs that are being mass produced all over the world. The O’Neill Chain of bars is even owned by a Japaneese company. I see this as a terrible loss to our heritage and are making a joke of our culture.

In the capital at the moment, mass amounts of urban renewal projects are underway on both sides of the Liffey. The architecture in Ireland is reaching such a level that it is becoming a figure head as one of the leading cities in Europe for architecture; and architecture that has the ability to inspire and influence rather than just another copy of a copy.

If anyone has any information or knowledge of any material that could be useful in my project I would be very greatful.
E-mail me on,

Or writing to me at,

Rory Martin,
74 Cromwell St.,
Sheffield,
S6 3RN

SEEK AND YE SHALL FIND AND BE BLESSED.

Ref : The Pubs of Dublin 8.

I write to inform you of the greatest district in Dublin for “real pubs” and where for the most one can enjoy a quiet pint with the exception of the odd T.V.

Without doubt I recommend a visit to the front snug of O’Donoughue’s On Emmet Road Inchicore otherwise known as the Glen / The Hill / Jack’s and if the TV is on just ask Brian, Liam or Darren to turn it off they normally oblige. The back bar is still essentially a male preserve but the odd female is tolerated as long as she is appreciative of the very rural atmosphere of this the finest shop in Inchicore / Dublin 8. After a few pints here you’l already be looking forward to your return. Incidently this was a favourite pub of Brian Lenihan where he often dropped in to enjoy a quiet pint in privacy like any other local.

I must say that the last of the old Dublin boozers are still to be found in Inchicore i.e. The unique men ( men of iron / railwaymen ) only bar of the Black Lion . Also the most unique old bar / old coaching house of The Richmond House / Mc Dowell’s – the old bar area and the front snug (where the more mature female customers still enjoy their glass) are from a bygone age. Also The Great Southern & Western Railway Inn / Cleary’s on Sarsfield Road is a great old railway shop.

In Kilmainham ( the very rural Royal Oak on Kilmainham Lane, May Murray’s on Bow Bridge ) a must is the little “railway carriage“ room at the back and if you want to try a really eccentric but real old Dublin shop head for The Black and Amber / Dillon’s on Islandbridge and observe the unique Jem Dillon in action. Sit up on the nearest available bar stool (always plenty at the bar ) and enjoy a great pint of Guinness in the company of no more than 10 locals (in this architectural throwback to the 60s) when it’s bedlam in trendy Ryan’s further down in Parkgate Street. Ryan’s is a great afternoon shop but come the evening one is sure of a worn plastic covered stool and Jem’s or Mrs Dillon’s undivided attention in the unique sanctuary of the Black and Amber. Jack Charlton made Jem an offer he did refuse for the premises as he’s happy looking after his unique small band of locals in his mile long shop. Here again women are encouraged to sit “beyond the bar”.

All the pubs along James / Thomas St. are brewery pubs and each one pocesses it’s own uniqueness and ambience (the good the bad and the ugly) and are special in that the Guinness travels only a few yards from Arthur’s (James’s Gate) to the taps. A few I’d recommend would be The Barn Owl, The Malt House and Hanlon’s on James’s St.

After some experience on the streets venture into the area known as “The Pipes” ( the back of the brewery) have one in The Brewery Bar on Pim St The Old Harbour and Ryan’s near the old Guinness barge dock ( now filled in ) , after much experience venture into O’Reillys –
( bring a flashlamp as it’s always pretty dark!! ) – on James’s St the nearest pub to the world famous entrance to Guinnesse’s i.e. James’s Gate and run by a great Cavan man from Kilashandra (my mother’s hometown ) Tommy O’Reilly.

On Thomas St. worth a visit are The Clock and Baker’s – great atmosphere when the dealers are out in force on saturday afternoons. Incidently Guinness’s are presently constructing a huge visitors centre at the back of “The Pipes” which will contain a mega panorama bar on top of the old Victorian brewery building – I’ll probably go once – once it’s finished. You’ll be spoiled for choice in the Liberties especially along Francis St (Liberty Belle and The Dean Swift), Meath St (Ryan’s and Bohan’s). On the Coombe what is still a great old Dublin shop but alas now filled with tourists sipping an eternal glass of Guinness and filling in their eternal postcards- the one and only Fallon’s. Near to Fallon’s on Mill Lane you’l find a well run pub called The Tenters around the corner in Newmarket Sq. you’l find a bar where all the world resides The Red Lion. Just a minute or two and up into Cork St and back to reality in the now threathened (by road widening) Gaffney’s Weaver’s Sq., The Ardee House / Jones’s (great taximen ballad session here on a monday ) on Chamber St. and Lowe’s at Dolphin’s Barn .

Also on Cork St check out Morrissy’s and a great name for the Coombe The Stork, shops that are a little rough around the edges, in need of a lick of paint and full of “characters” (long may they stay as they are), another few years and proposed road “improvements” will also see them disappear to be remembered “as the rare old times”.

We’re blessed and very fortunate in Dublin 8 that we must have the highest density of pubs / Sq. yd. in the world and all within walking distance of home and all the famous sites of Old Dublin. There are more to be found along the lenght of the S.C.R., (Plimblico, Rialto, Portebello !!!) and around Blackpitts but I reckon if you survey the above over the coming months you’l be doing well… by the way Lamberts near Kelly’s Corner is a special place for a quiet jar. Another great old bar is to be found on the Long Mile Road and known locally by the young wags as an old folks home the great Half Way House.

Then maybe for a break from Dublin 8 I could direct you to “The Liberties” of the northside which pocesses many a fine pub and is still a great secret i.e. Stoneybatter and in particular the bars of Hanlon’s, Mulligans and Kavanagh’s ( the bar here should be listed by Dublin Corporation)..but alas I only heard last night that renovations might be under way.. so hurry!! When over this unique part of the city ramble down to Queen St. to view and savour a pub of many nooks and crannies and my favourite on the north side Frank Ryan’s where the clientele vary from dealers to big wigs from the Four Courts.

Certainly we’re spoiled for choice in Dublin 8 unlike the suburbs where the publican has a captive audience, increasing in numbers all the time and the local pub getting bigger and bigger . So the best of luck in your forays from deepest where ever into the inner city. I’m confident that you’l enjoy the pubs the people and the adventure of the new. Slainte and to your health,
JOHN CALLERY.

Gaffney’s, Weaver’s Sq. is sadly gone.completely flattened

“Then maybe for a break from Dublin 8 I could direct you to “The Liberties” of the northside which pocesses many a fine pub and is still a great secret i.e. Stoneybatter and in particular the bars of Hanlon’s, Mulligans and Kavanagh’s “
What ,no mention of Walsh’s
without a doubt the best pub in stoneybatter

I agree….and can I say too that this is a great route or artery into the city centre of Dublin – …….Inchicore , Kilmainham, Mount Brown, Jame’s Street, Thomas Street, High Street, Christchurch. It is full of history along the way….ie. The Model Schools, St Patrick’s Athlethic football grounds, Kilmainham Gaol, The Royal Hospital, Eamonn Ceannt Fort area (scene of 1916 siege), Guineass’s Brewery, St Catherine’s Church…and that’s just to name a few attractions. Can I add also that this however is a much neglected route and badly needs attention, especially when one considers it’s historic and cultural value to the city and nation.

ADDITIONS REVISIONS AND ALTERATIONS ON THE PUBS OF DUBLIN 8.

Sadly since I compiled my “report” in July the following boozers have been levelled
Gaffney’s of Weavers Sq. as LOB rightly informed us. May Murray’s in Kilmainham- levelled to make way for yet another nondescript block of flats, sorry apartments. As I previously stated don’t fail to visit the “wee room” at the back of The Royal Oak right opposite Kilmainham Garda station – also ignore the fancy crazy 70s granite finish of the walls on the outside thank God it did not invade the interior – this is a most unique little shop. Visitors / Architects please note, just across the road / lane from the Oak you will see an unusual private dwelling well under construction along the boundary wall of The Royal Hospital featuring a round tower effect- a most unique and very welcome contemporary construction opposite a most unique little drinking shop.

A dramatic painting of the southern elevation of Kilmainham Gaol is to be seen over the bar – before Shell and Finn Reddy built their garage. Finn Reddy actually uses the back wall of the Gaol as a boundary for his parking lot – how in the world was he granted permission ?? It’s crazy and wrong but not as bad or as speculative as what Treasury Holdings and Tony Reddy plan for to face the great stone icons / monuments of the Gaol, The Court House and The Royal Hospital !!!!

Visit http://www.kilmainham-gaol.com this site also at planning stage. So the first great act of “renewal” in Dublin Corporation’s IAP for Kilmainham is to be “lash them up” office blocks in our face and the face of the Gaol.

Alas the Black and Amber also closed – Charlton must have come back !! Should be depressing to see what theme / team bar now emerges from this once great old shop.

How could I leave out of 8 the great Lord Edward (High St) – just go and visit and view the old gas lighting piping (mech services) still intact over the bar. And yes how could Walshe’s be left out of 7. Also Guinness’s “gravity bar” finished and by all accounts a great addition to Dublin 8, £9 in for a pint – a little steep methinks. Best head of for a pint – I’ll visit the Royal Oak and see how the round house is coming along and listen for news on any more great plans the Corpo may have for the district.

How Irish,
The largest forum topic is preoccupied with pubs, come on.

[This message has been edited by Tom Crowley (edited 08 December 2000).]

How Irish indeed…….but what do you expect when alcohol consumption is the only favourite recreation sport of us all….and besides the ‘pub’ has played a major role in our social history. True!

I dont believe for one second that the pub was a very important part of Irish history.
We received the idea of the pub from the English, where it has always been a dominant part of their culture, yet we dont hear the English reminscing about bygone days and the good old English pub.

The impact of the pub on Irish culture is fabricated. The Guinness brewery was always and is an English company. What about our Brethan culture, the Normans, etc., etc.
The pub is a part of Irish culture, not a main fixing point. Then again, the good thing about history is that it can always be changed to suit the present.

[This message has been edited by MK (edited 08 December 2000).]

Actually, the English are always lamenting the loss of their traditional pubs as much as we do.

Pubs are part of our culture, cafes are part of French culture – to say that they are not is quite ludicrous. They are not the be all and end all of our culture, but they are definitely a part of our social heritage. To say that they are an english invention is wrong – maybe the idea of legislation for them was.

Oh and this not the biggest topic (yet)!!

Well aware,
I never denied the involvement of the pub in Irish culture, however, its role has been overrated. I dont understand where this idea of Irishness,i.e. the love of ‘the drink’, love of the craic, etc has come from, its like some source of pride for many. Why? ,its ridiculous.

How about we say that the Catholic Church has been the single biggest influential institution in Irish culture for the past 1000 years(Christian also). How does the pub compare to that, attitude forming, life controlling effect on Irish society.

Is it possible to walk through the city without passing a pub? Joyce claimed it couldn’t be done! Has anyone tried?

Architects and designers dont belong in pubs.
Go to All Bar One.

Marx, what if you go into every pub you come accross, thereby not passing it – don’t you think that’s what Joyce meant?

One point not mentioned here is the reason for all these demolitions and redevelopments. The publican lobby has stopped the government from issuing new licences, therefore the best way for a publican to make money is to knock down an old pub and build a large new theme pub. These are Ok in themselves, and will no doubt be redecorated according to fashion, but meanwhile whole chunks of our history are being eradicated. If developers could simply apply for new licences for these new pubs then maybe the old family pubs would be allowed to live. Thanks to those who have posted pub crawl recommendations by the way

McC: Great, but your boozy solution would take too much time and would never be completed ~ can it be done? And God only knows what Joyce meant us to think!

has anyone seen the white horse? what an absolute kip!!!
many modern irish pubs are a disgrace and an insult to everything our ancestors fought against.
the all-sports bar in temple bar should have its licence revoked. its walls are adorned by the english national soccer jersey.
the owner should be locked up in the dungeon of kilmainham gaol…
to be continued

How about issuing new licences to pubs under a certain square footage- that would do away with drinking barns

Exactly as you say Conor – the government (or rather courts) seem to have broken the monopoly and power of the TAXI lobby. How the TAXI men ever had a lobby is hard to credit as most TAXI men are ordinary Joe’s like the rest of us. The publicans (much more powerful) will I predict always be a law onto themselves to the ultimate detriment / destruction of the last of the genuine old Dublin pubs. It will take the courts (government have no will or desire) to save the remaining authentic Dublin boozers by breaking the publicans monopoly and total self interest which is destroying the last inner ring of authentic city pubs.

They are already eyeing up old pubs in the Liberties, Pimblico and surrounding streets i.e. The once majestic little bar of Rodgers of Thomas St gone and its licence now operates Vicar St (a fine and another welcome contemporary venue in Dublin 8) but alas Rodgers had to go solely for its licence (not its site) as Vicar St is built on the opposite corner. The Robert Emmet (adjacent to Catherine’s Church where Emmet was hung now revamped, Berlin-ised / destroyed and called Handel’s – how Dublin Indeed !! what next ?? plenty more phoneys and fakes on the way as the Celtic Cubs over spill out of Temple Bar and up to rejuvenate the great “e district” that is planned for the back of “The Pipes”/ Guinness’s. The publican vultures must be licking their lips and are already planning to play their part in the rejuvenation of the Liberties.

The current façade whereby the publican builds a fake Irish pub within / adjacent to his main pub is the greatest joke yet i.e. beside the lounge of the Mercantile in Dame St one sees I think it’s called O’Reillys or Maloneys – now he has two pubs for one licence, pity the tourists or anybody else who falls for this total con.

Time is fast ticking away for the last of the old Dublin pubs within the inner ring (between the two canals)- unless the pub licence monopoly is broken – little hope, the publicans will always will have the ear and tail of the government and the indifference of the young drinker who is happy to pile in pose and be facilitated in a “cool operating theatre” with a drink by big business. But the young boozer / resident of the hip inner city of today will seek the genuine article tomorrow and it will for certain be no more.

Exactly as you say Conor – the government (or rather courts) seem to have broken the monopoly and power of the TAXI lobby. How the TAXI men ever had a lobby is hard to credit as most TAXI men are ordinary Joe’s like the rest of us. The publicans (much more powerful) will I predict always be a law onto themselves to the ultimate detriment / destruction of the last of the genuine old Dublin pubs. It will take the courts (government have no will or desire) to save the remaining authentic Dublin boozers by breaking the publicans monopoly and total self interest which is destroying the last inner ring of authentic city pubs.

They are already eyeing up old pubs (only as a licence to knock and plan amphitheatres) in the Liberties, Pimblico and surrounding streets i.e. The once majestic little bar of Rodgers of Thomas St gone and its licence now operates Vicar St (a fine and another welcome contemporary venue in Dublin 8) but alas Rodgers had to go solely for its licence (not its site) as Vicar St is built on the opposite corner. The Robert Emmet (adjacent to Catherine’s Church where Emmet was hung now revamped, Berlin-ised / destroyed and called Handel’s – how Dublin Indeed !! what next ?? plenty more phoneys and fakes on the way as the Celtic Cubs over spill out of Temple Bar and up to rejuvenate the great “e district” that is planned for the back of “The Pipes”/ Guinness’s. The publican vultures must be licking their lips and are already planning to play their part in the “rejuvenation” (exploitation) of the Liberties.

The current façade whereby the publican builds a fake Irish pub within / adjacent to his main pub is the greatest joke yet i.e. beside the lounge of the Mercantile in Dame St one sees I think it’s called O’Reillys or Maloneys – now he has two pubs for one licence, pity the tourists or anybody else who falls for this total con.

Time is fast ticking away for the last of the old Dublin pubs within the inner ring (between the two canals) – unless the pub licence monopoly is broken – little hope, the publicans will always will have the ear and tail of the government and the indifference of the young drinker who is happy to pile in, pose and be facilitated in a “cool operating theatre” with a drink by big business. But the young boozer / resident of the hip inner city of today will seek the genuine article tomorrow and it will for certain be no more. Future Dubs will have to visit the Crown in Belfast (owned and run by the British National Trust) i.e. a Belfast icon and protected heritage building to have an inclination of how it once was in some Dublin pubs.

The Mercantile now has three pubs for the price of one. The original, O’Briens next door and now they’ve opened up another modern place next door. There must be some legislation to stop this – it appears that all you have to do is leave the doors between them open.

Also on the subject of Hanlon’s on the NCR. The mosaic on the floor is an absolute masterpieces, one of the finest I’ve ever seen in this country. It’s absolutely priceless and the Guinness there makes it worth the trip.

re. minimalist designer bars vs fake-old paddywhackery oirish pubs as solutions for new bars

I believe neither is a solution though they may appeal to certain niches like the stylists or the tourist respectively.

Obviously paddywhackery is kitsch.
While I like many things about minimalism, I think it does not match the Irish spirit, which tends to be exuberant and earthy and prefers to exaggerate rather than subtract(remember Toraiocht Diarmuid agus Grainne)

Is the problem not a lack of an Irish design language and identity? Every country that produces good design has an evolved design language or identity – the Italians, Swedes etc. They have not ignored their traditions but built on them.

What happens when you dont have an identity – you borrow someone elses to keep you going. I think we borrow international style into Ireland. We put in what have become known as designer-bars that have nothing to do with Irish culture, who we are or what we like to do. These designer-cool bars are put in by the Irish style police and have more to do with being ‘cool’ than with design in many cases.
This jump-starting of the design process is a sort of cheat and gives Ireland a veneer look of design without allowing its complex cultural design identity to develop and evolve. Its all in an effort to ‘compete on the European stage, to be a modern nation’ but it is just copyism. It probably comes from a history of being the under-dog and the under-dog often tries to be ‘as good as’ instead of being better than , tries to follow rather than trying to lead.

Now we are nouveau-riche but money does not buy a culture, does not buy innovation so easily. This needs time and support to develop.

Design should not look like it came from a European style magazine but be its own, a good solution in its own context. It takes research and time. Part of this research involves taking stock of our traditions, not erasing them. While things must always move on, we must preserve certain physical markers of history as symbols of how we evolved into what we are.

The state of our drinking/social establishments is in a mess because we dont know what we want to communicate about ourselves through design, we dont have a design language. Since we Irish have become noveau-riche, it seems mnny of us have forgotten who we are, what we are.

Ah… an Irish pub…..too bad ‘a decent pint’ is becoming a thing of the past in most Dublin central city pubs, especially these newer trendy ones…..with all chrome, glass, pale beechwood and scantily clad young ladies…… all stylishly great…. but unfortunately a pint of flat dishwater is the order of the day, the stuff that will turn your stomach over and give you the scuts….plainly speaking. One has to frequent a crusty auld kip to get a decent pint. True!

Lads – I think we’re getting old.

Actually got a reasonable pint of Guinness in the Capitol bar on Stephen’s street, and AKA in Wicklow street. I think the craft of pouring a pint is gone – plus the fact that Guinness are pushing Cold flow which tastes awful.

You get a good Guinness in the Gravity Bar all the same.

I resent pubs who only have cold flow.
also the “Quality” issue has a lot to do with the disappearance of the concept of serving your time(apprentice) to be replaced with the cheapest possible labour.

Very true – for a graphic example of this go to the Harbourmaster in the IFSC. Very little English spoken by the staff and never the same people behind the bar two weeks running. Time was when pubs had unions (who trained up staff)and staff that took pride in what they did.

the irish pub has become the equivalent export of the chinese restaurant – or cultural cartoon…there must be a factory in China that makes this crap for fitting out oirish pubs and chinese restaurants – but it is authentic shit, not fake shit

as we all know the chinese restaurant is not chinese and the oirish pub isn’t irish, it’s themed (cartoon) design…and by the way the entire world is going to be themed eventually

what the heck is authentic anyway? of its period, of its time? my favorite is the Crown in Belfast – nice scale, interesting stalls, not too big, looks to be late vicky, wait a minute it really is

Chic cafe bars are ruining our culture they our remamisent of tacky 1970s new york coctail bars and leave it to beavers fathers office

Dublin’s boozers are a dying species – latest one to be revamped and “modernised” and renamed after over a 100 years is the old Horse and Tram on the north quays now a so called trendy drinking trough called SPY !! – it’s criminal what’s happening. How long will The Flowing Tide last and retain even it’s 100 year old name?? Dublin’s pub heritage is rapidly being destroyed with full planning permission.

Pubs that have had a Dublin character since they were first built are being replaced – (and their customers scattered in search of a genuine boozer) – with permission from the Corpo. You can sit (if there’s a seat) and if your lucky chat if there is no constant “boom boom” in these new “Dublin” bars. You often have to stand in these theatres as the owners are reluctant to build in seating as leaning on a shelf sucking a bottle “is cool” and provides more floor space for transient punters.

These cool bars are as transient as their customers and will not last a decade. But too late for old pub heritage.I have nothing against new bars but they should and would be built from scratch if the pub licence cartel was broken. Give these “cool cats” drinking in these new bars another 10 years or so and they will be asking like tourists where can one find a good old Dublin boozer??

The remaining inner city bars i.e. Mulligan’s, Stag’s Head, Lord Edward etc. are now so cramped because those of us (and we are numerous) who like the genuine article, atmosphere and conviviality of the old boozers are being restricted to a decreasing number of pubs and have to seek out the few listed and protected ones.

What do people have against the new “cool chic cafe-bars.” I understand that the destruction of some older, traditional pubs in Dublin and everywhere else to make way for something completely different is worthy of concern. However, what type of establishments would people prefer to see being built from scratch? or in converted buildings, not previously pubs? Theme bars that create authentic Oirish atmospheres?

so where does one go for a martini rather than a pint?

a nomination for the worst bar in Dublin is the NASDAQ bar on Wexford Street, wandered in with some American guests while waiting for a table at Il Primo, tis a truly dreadful place

HERS ONE I HEARD THE OTHER DAY TO GO ON THE BATTER A WELL KNOWN DRINKING TERM REFERS TO STARTING DRINKING AT THE BOTTOM OF MANOR ST AND DRINKING IN ALL THE PUBS IN STONNYBATTER.

What about top ten lists genuine and modern Irish pubs. It would save the writers in the Sunday Tribune compiling their own Baggot-Street centred version.

This is my picks:
Bowes of Fleet Street
Long Hall
Ha’Penny Bridge Inn
The Bankers on Trinity Street
Hanlons on the NCR
The Royal Oak in Kilmainham
Kiely’s on Abbey Street
Kehoes
Grogans
Back room in Stags Head

And the five worst:
Messrs Maguire on the quays
The new Slatterys on Capel St
Sports Bar in Temple Bar
Temple Bar in Temple Bar
Q on the Quays

Kielys on Abbey stret is a new pub made from the remains of another that burnt down on the site.

My picks:
John Kehoes – Anne Street South
The International Bar – Wicklow Street
Neary’s – Chatham Street
Toners – Baggot Street
Slattery’s – Beggars Bush
Davy Byrnes
The Pav in TCD (summer only)
Chaplins – Hawkins Street

And some new ones:
The Capitol: Georges Street
Robert Reades: Store Street
Cocoon: Royal Hibernian Way
AKA: Wicklow Street
Gubu: Capel street

My favorite pub of all was the much missed Crane on Crane Lane in Temple Bar – the licence from that is now the one for the Quays bar (bah humbug) the place was tiny, but had a great atmosphere. If you got the snug you were sorted for the night!

Ones to avoid:
Coyote Lounge -D’Olier Street
Excise Bar – IFSC 2
Q Bar
MacTurcaills of Hoggen Green (for F*ck sake)
Zanzibar

I got a bad pint in Mulligans of Poolbeg Street and was ill for about 3 days afterwards so since then I have avoided it.

Kefu…I’m sure you would add to your list (after a visit) the very original old bar and the unique front snug of Mc Dowell’s / Richmond House right opposite the “Badlands” of St. Michael’s Estate on Emmet Road, Inchicore.

Certainly worth investigating to see this very original old bar and a great band of very original punters enjoying the finest pint of Guinness in Dublin. It’s not to be missed after your next visit to the very precious and secret Old Royal Oak down the road on Old Kilmainham Lane.

Incidentally, bigger than life Big Pat Dolan, manager of St. Patricks Athletic (who play right behind this old coaching house) uses the old bar as an unofficial front office and venue for “meeting the press”.

By the way what do you think of the very original / innovative new dwelling near the Old Royal Oak. It’s now nearing completion as it rises and slopes back on its western elevation. This is a fine modern example
(in my opinion) of how contemporary architecture can fit in so well with the old. It rises out of the original single storey artisan dwelling adjacent to the walls of the Royal Hospital and across the road from the Old Oak ? It’s to the design of its owner architect Peter Keenan.

I agree with Rory W. about AKA on wicklow St. great bar!
Visually reminicent of an early Thunderbirds episode with mad acoustics, but a great atmosphere.

A little further out, in Ranelagh, both Russells and the Barge are noteworthy if just for the atmosphere. The Barge has gone back to the ‘Eighties’ half finished brick and mortar look and exposed faux trusses.

Russells is visually rich with an excellent ceiling which is best viewed over the top of an emptying pint glass

Belfast’s Crown Liquor Saloon: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/crown/hist.htm

used or does anyone still drink in the nep, the downstairs of the “flowing tide”, lower abbey street, accross from the abbey?

i did a lot of my growing up there

i came home after working in the states for a summer and bumped into a mate who told me the bad news “they`ve cheanged the nep”
it took me a while to go in and it was very upsetting to see the damage.
i asked paddy what they had done with the old red couches “thrown into the skip”
what id have given to have one, especially the corner one, in my room now

Sorry – forgot to mention Hartigans at the bottom of Leeson Street. Definitely one of the best pubs around. Guinness is great, and Ma hartigan is definitely a character…

Just saw the Marble Bar in Kilkenny. Terrible

Dead right,
The old front ruined by some abstract streaks of colour instead of the original timber and stained glass. As for the interior, a weak attempt at some mutated form of art deco. I believe there were recriminations as the ‘renovation’ did not respect the wishes of the relavant bodies duchas, et al.

JFD’s Dublin in the Afternoon (a 1990s pub crawl): http://roger.ecn.purdue.edu/~jfdoyle/dubpubs.html

You would have a very sore liver if you attempted to complete that pub crawl in a week nevermind an afternoon; it is however the most comprehensive list of pubs I have ever seen outside an LVA membership list.

O’Neill’s of Pearse Street looking delightfully Victorian this afternoon:

All those exotic plants brought back from the furtherest flung garden centres of the M50 🙂

The two most extreme left-hand bays in the first pic appear to be a replica extension…

This pub always puts n a good show…. definately one of the more civic minded businesses on Pearse St

I Love all Pubs, Full Stop.