Restoring sash windows

Hi,
Sorry I can’t help with company listings for Dublin, I’m sure others can – there’s certainly many of them around nowadays.

But do hold onto the glass – so often people go to all the expense and effort to get the sashes restored, or replaced if necessary, all with the best intentions, but then get new glass put into the sashes.
The original glass is half the charm of original windows; they literally lose their soul with flawless mirrors of modern glass inserted in the originals’ place.

As for the rotting bottom rail – that’s probably the most common feature of deterioration with sash windows, and is usually not indicative of widespread rot. Normally the bottom rail is simply taken out and a new timber spliced into place.
And if the years of paint have caused a problem with causing the windows to stick, they’ve probably saved you from another by protecting the wood beneath!

Hope it goes well for you 🙂

Ventrolla specialises in this work

Great to hear you are considering the resoration route. Enjoy it, as you are fortunate to have what sounds like a good starting point.
This pdf may help
Conservation guidelines for windows

There is a great Sash Window company called WJ Bolger Conservation in Ardee St. Dublin 8. These guys make and restore all the old Sash windows. info@wjbolger.ie

snooky,

The Irish Georgian Society has a traditional skills register of practitioners who specialise in the repair of timber sashes, contact details and a list of previous experience for same can be found on this register. which is available from their website.

Here it is: http://www.irish-architecture.com/cgi-bin/igs/register/search/register.cgi

@Woodman wrote:

There is a great Sash Window company called WJ Bolger Conservation in Ardee St. Dublin 8. These guys make and restore all the old Sash windows. info@wjbolger.ie

My understanding is that almost 100% of Bolgers work is now tear out the old windows and make new ones to suit.

@S.O.S. wrote:

My understanding is that almost 100% of Bolgers work is now tear out the old windows and make new ones to suit.

Bolgers are Ventrolla

I’ll give you a quote pm me

@Pot Noodle wrote:

Bolgers are Ventrolla

I’ll give you a quote pm me

I’m well aware of who Bolgers/Ventrolla are and having seen some of their work I have to say as a seasoned craftsman/ window restorer I’m not impressed.

I even understand they now use plastic parting beads, I would have thought the bigwigs in Bolgers should know that plastic expands at a far greater rate than wood and will cause it to split.

If your quote for getting the windows draught-proofed using wooden parting beads and wooden staff beads (matched to the originals), using the best of fittings, re-balanced, and a totally smooth operation is more than €800 then thanks but no thanks.

I’ll just have to keep on doing it for my customers like I always do.

@S.O.S. wrote:

I’m well aware of who Bolgers/Ventrolla are and having seen some of their work I have to say as a seasoned craftsman/ window restorer I’m not impressed.

I even understand they now use plastic parting beads, I would have thought the bigwigs in Bolgers should know that plastic expands at a far greater rate than wood and will cause it to split.

If your quote for getting the windows draught-proofed using wooden parting beads and wooden staff beads (matched to the originals), using the best of fittings, re-balanced, and a totally smooth operation is more than €800 then thanks but no thanks.

I’ll just have to keep on doing it for my customers like I always do.

Eh Hello seasoned window restorer we use a wooden parting bead with a neoprene draught excluder so it does’nt crack if overpainted and in my 28 yrs of doing this i don’t take kindly to your innuendos

@Pot Noodle wrote:

Eh Hello seasoned window restorer we use a wooden parting bead with a neoprene draught excluder so it does’nt crack if overpainted and in my 28 yrs of doing this i don’t take kindly to your innuendos

I note you have not compared prices nor have denied that restoration is not what Bolgers do anymore.

I had a good look at the website and note they talk a lot about conservation but isn’t conservation is where you keep the old ones in place not throw them out onto a skip or whatever.

Restoration is where you repair the damaged ones and get them back to a sparkling state, this is what I do and very well too:D

I’ve always thought that grants should be available for restoration not for ripping out perfectly good windows and replacing them with sashes that any joinery could make, Bolgers or otherwise.

I also note that you have not understood what I was talking about when I spoke about using plastic parting beads, What I meant was when it expands it splits the side of the frame.

@Pot Noodle wrote:

I’ll give you a quote pm me

Its getting harder and harder to make ends meet isn’t it….

@S.O.S. wrote:

I note you have not compared prices nor have denied that restoration is not what Bolgers do anymore.

I had a good look at the website and note they talk a lot about conservation but isn’t conservation is where you keep the old ones in place not throw them out onto a skip or whatever.

Restoration is where you repair the damaged ones and get them back to a sparkling state, this is what I do and very well too:D

I’ve always thought that grants should be available for restoration not for ripping out perfectly good windows and replacing them with sashes that any joinery could make, Bolgers or otherwise.

I also note that you have not understood what I was talking about when I spoke about using plastic parting beads, What I meant was when it expands it splits the side of the frame.

Its getting harder and harder to make ends meet isn’t it….

€ 800 a window are you having a laugh

@Pot Noodle wrote:

€ 800 a window are you having a laugh

Remove the sashes from the frame,
Remove old pulleys,
Strip the paint from the frame,
Install new pulleys.
Remove excess paint from the sashes,
make a groove in the top of the bottom sash to allow a pile carrier to be installed for draught proofing.
weight the top sash then install it.
cut and install parting beads with no draught brushes showing.
Weigh the bottom sash then install.
Cut staff beads to length.
Attach ring pulls, lifters and fasteners

Small window €800 on average
Big windows €900 on average

larger orders are less.

@S.O.S. wrote:

Remove the sashes from the frame,
Remove old pulleys,
Strip the paint from the frame,
Install new pulleys.
Remove excess paint from the sashes,
make a groove in the top of the bottom sash to allow a pile carrier to be installed for draught proofing.
weight the top sash then install it.
cut and install parting beads with no draught brushes showing.
Weigh the bottom sash then install.
Cut staff beads to length.
Attach ring pulls, lifters and fasteners

Small window €800 on average
Big windows €900 on average

larger orders are less.

Thats robbery i could do about 4/6 a day

completely recondition 4 – 6 sash windows a day ? doubt it. Anyone thats had a go themselves knows it can take an age … what do you charge at that rate? 200 a go ? ye can come down & give mine a good going over in that case 😀

@Peter Fitz wrote:

completely recondition 4 – 6 sash windows a day ? doubt it. Anyone thats had a go themselves knows it can take an age … what do you charge at that rate? 200 a go ? ye can come down & give mine a good going over in that case 😀

depends on condition all im saying is € 800 a pop extortionate we would do them on a larger scale restoration of entire building

@Pot Noodle wrote:

Thats robbery i could do about 4/6 a day

LOL

@Peter Fitz wrote:

completely recondition 4 – 6 sash windows a day ? doubt it. Anyone thats had a go themselves knows it can take an age … what do you charge at that rate? 200 a go ? ye can come down & give mine a good going over in that case 😀

I have done several restoration projects over the years and I have never heard of any man doing 4/6 windows in 1 day,

Pot Noodle, you still haven’t compared prices nor have answered to whether or not Bolgers/Ventrolla do restoration and repair of old sash windows or not.

Since Pot Noodle isn’t keen to answer my question maybe I should make a new thread entitled

Do Bolgers/Ventrolla restore sashes anymore? If so, what does it cost?

@S.O.S. wrote:

LOL

I have done several restoration projects over the years and I have never heard of any man doing 4/6 windows in 1 day,

Pot Noodle, you still haven’t compared prices nor have answered to whether or not Bolgers/Ventrolla do restoration and repair of old sash windows or not.

Since Pot Noodle isn’t keen to answer my question maybe I should make a new thread entitled

Do Bolgers/Ventrolla restore sashes anymore? If so, what does it cost?

You may drag it out to justifie €800 a window we just get stuck in the days of ripping people off is long gone value for money now

@Pot Noodle wrote:

You may drag it out to justifie €800 a window we just get stuck in the days of ripping people off is long gone value for money now

I’m in the middle of having all the windows at the front of my Victorian house done, including a large bay window.

I shopped around quite a bit and was very unimpressed with W J Bolder aka Ventrolla. The reason my windows need attention is that Bolger’s did them around ten years ago and removed part of the original frames and replaced them with plastic which has caused the wooden surrounds to split and rot. They also infilled part of the windows with silicone which sealed in water and caused further decay of the timber. They removed some of the original wrought iron and solid brass catches and replaced them with brassed catches and fittings which have since corroded.

Having spoken to Bolders I found them very unhelpful and uninterested in conservation. I explained that I wanted to retain as much of the original materials as possible, and they said they’d f@ck them out and replace them with new ones. They also failed to return calls, failed to turn up at the appointed time and were reluctant to return a sample sash I had given them for assessment.

In the end I settled for someone who is charging me more than twice the €800 per window price quoted, but I am very pleased with the quality of the work, and am satisfied that I won’t need to redo it in a few years like I’ve had to do with Bolger’s.

Part of the reason my price is higher than the €800 is that they are fusing cracked glass back together and hand blowing new cylinder glass to replace modern panes.

They may not be the fastest workers, but I really don’t see how anyone could claim to restore six sash windows in a day and do anything like a proper job.

@cheezypuf wrote:

I’m in the middle of having all the windows at the front of my Victorian house done, including a large bay window.

I shopped around quite a bit and was very unimpressed with W J Bolder aka Ventrolla. The reason my windows need attention is that Bolger’s did them around ten years ago and removed part of the original frames and replaced them with plastic which has caused the wooden surrounds to split and rot. They also infilled part of the windows with silicone which sealed in water and caused further decay of the timber. They removed some of the original wrought iron and solid brass catches and replaced them with brassed catches and fittings which have since corroded.

Having spoken to Bolders I found them very unhelpful and uninterested in conservation. I explained that I wanted to retain as much of the original materials as possible, and they said they’d f@ck them out and replace them with new ones. They also failed to return calls, failed to turn up at the appointed time and were reluctant to return a sample sash I had given them for assessment.

In the end I settled for someone who is charging me more than twice the €800 per window price quoted, but I am very pleased with the quality of the work, and am satisfied that I won’t need to redo it in a few years like I’ve had to do with Bolger’s.

Part of the reason my price is higher than the €800 is that they are fusing cracked glass back together and hand blowing new cylinder glass to replace modern panes.

They may not be the fastest workers, but I really don’t see how anyone could claim to restore six sash windows in a day and do anything like a proper job.

The plastic is an isopon based product i would slice with salvaged timber myself 4/6 windows again i say depending on condition some windows have very little wrong with them i.e weights ,sash cords missing beads & over painting i work for myself so there is no incentive to skive off like i said we just get stuck in

@Pot Noodle wrote:

The plastic is an isopon based product i would slice with salvaged timber myself 4/6 windows again i say depending on condition some windows have very little wrong with them i.e weights ,sash cords missing beads & over painting i work for myself so there is no incentive to skive off like i said we just get stuck in

I’m talking about proper restoration though, not patching them up with plastic bits.

As a minimum a restored window will need a printer, undercoat and gloss. How do you manage to get all three coats on and dry in one day, and on six windows? Not to mention replacing damaged timber, replacing cords, rehanging weights, removing old puty, waiting a month for the puty to dry before painting, etc?

@cheezypuf wrote:

I’m talking about proper restoration though, not patching them up with plastic bits.

As a minimum a restored window will need a printer, undercoat and gloss. How do you manage to get all three coats on and dry in one day, and on six windows? Not to mention replacing damaged timber, replacing cords, rehanging weights, removing old puty, waiting a month for the puty to dry before painting, etc?

How can restore a rotten piece of wood if it is unrepairable you tell me Harry Houdini you may think people are slackers we are not Its called best common practice and i wont be commenting any more

@S.O.S. wrote:

Remove the sashes from the frame,
Remove old pulleys,
Strip the paint from the frame,
Install new pulleys.
Remove excess paint from the sashes,
make a groove in the top of the bottom sash to allow a pile carrier to be installed for draught proofing.
weight the top sash then install it.
cut and install parting beads with no draught brushes showing.
Weigh the bottom sash then install.
Cut staff beads to length.
Attach ring pulls, lifters and fasteners

Small window €800 on average
Big windows €900 on average

larger orders are less.

If you do all that I do to windows you won’t get 4/6 windows done in a day.

@Pot Noodle wrote:

You may drag it out to justifie €800 a window we just get stuck in the days of ripping people off is long gone value for money now

Your English is appalling.

Can you write properly so every one can understand what you are saying.

However if I read you correctly you are accusing me of ripping people off. That’s a bit rich since you don’t even know how long it takes to restore a window properly.

@cheezypuf wrote:

I really don’t see how anyone could claim to restore six sash windows in a day and do anything like a proper job.

You are correct it’s not possible to do a proper job in such a short time.

@cheezypuf wrote:

I’m talking about proper restoration though, not patching them up with plastic bits.

As a minimum a restored window will need a printer, undercoat and gloss. How do you manage to get all three coats on and dry in one day, and on six windows? Not to mention replacing damaged timber, replacing cords, rehanging weights, removing old puty, waiting a month for the puty to dry before painting, etc?

I think we have superman in our presence…

cheezypuf, can I ask why you are going about commissioning new cylinder glass for your windows? Surely the entire charm of original glass is that it is original – its flaws and imperfections the result of contemporary manufacturing limitations. Why would you want to falsely recreate that? Similarly, if I wanted to ‘read’ your building and be charmed by the integrity of its flashing panes of 19th century glass amongst the modern inserts, I would be sorely disappointed.

I’ve never quite understood why people would go to such effort to deceive in the installation of fake old glass. It’s akin to eschewing modern transportation and bringing all the building materials to your house on a horse and cart.

@GrahamH wrote:

cheezypuf, can I ask why you are going about commissioning new cylinder glass for your windows? Surely the entire charm of original glass is that it is original – its flaws and imperfections the result of contemporary manufacturing limitations. Why would you want to falsely recreate that? Similarly, if I wanted to ‘read’ your building and be charmed by the integrity of its flashing panes of 19th century glass amongst the modern inserts, I would be sorely disappointed.

I’ve never quite understood why people would go to such effort to deceive in the installation of fake old glass. It’s akin to eschewing modern transportation and bringing all the building materials to your house on a horse and cart.

A couple of the windows had glass replaced over the years. The old putty wasn’t cleared out properly and was left partially intact, and a new smaller pane was inserted, with more putty on top of the old. This was a pretty sloppy way to repair a window and has resulted in the glass being too small for the original frame when the layers of putty have been removed. As a result new glass will be needed anyway, so I thought glass that resembled the other (original) panes would be nice. Glass that isn’t damaged or too small isn’t being replaced.

I’m sorry that you find this sorely disappointing, but I’m doing my best to use the same materials and methods that were used when the windows were originally constructed. To this end, any replacement timber used is the same type as that removed, i.e. pitch pine. This has added to the expense, but I don’t think adding in pressure-treated deal, silicone filler or plastic beading would be very sensitive.

I’m not sure I agree with your analogy of a horse and cart. I think I’d prefer to use the example of someone with a period house choosing shades and types of paint that were available at the time the house was built, rather than modern hues and finishes.

I’m not sure if there is a right answer – perhaps it comes down to taste (or lack thereof)?

It probably does yes. Don’t get me wrong, I think you’re doing a fantastic job with your windows, and I’ve been reading your posts with satisfaction at your following best conservation practice, including refraining from painting the putty until a later date. Similarly, I despise plastic parting beads with a passion and am shocked at the number of quite high profile buildings where these have been installed. Your past experience says it all really. Indeed a picture or two of what you’re now doing wouldn’t go amiss 😉

However I really do take issue with replicating historic glass. Doing this is quite different to replicating authentic colour schemes or historic building materials – these are design considerations, architectural elements which are integral to the character of a building, as important to its appearance in the present day as in times past. By contrast, crown and cylinder glass in original windows direcly relates to contemporaneous manufacturing techniques. Their presence in a building is important principally because of their survival, not as an aesthetic entity (though yes it can of course be pretty). Indeed I would argue that far from contributing to an historic building, the replication of old glass vastly diminishes the status of original glass in a window, as its integrity as surviving testament to former manufacturing techniques and indeed social hierarchy, is lost amid the array of deceiving reproductions. Essentially, for me, it’s akin to replication exhibits in a museum case. They lack all the impact of the real thing, while an over abundance of such exhibits – as I’m sure everyone has encountered at one point or another – just makes the entire experience meaningless when you have to check every second caption card for authenticity.

I never said that i painted them

@Pot Noodle wrote:

i wont be commenting any more

@Pot Noodle wrote:

I never said that i painted them

@cheezypuf wrote:

A couple of the windows had glass replaced over the years. The old putty wasn’t cleared out properly and was left partially intact, and a new smaller pane was inserted, with more putty on top of the old. This was a pretty sloppy way to repair a window and has resulted in the glass being too small for the original frame when the layers of putty have been removed. As a result new glass will be needed anyway, so I thought glass that resembled the other (original) panes would be nice. Glass that isn’t damaged or too small isn’t being replaced.

I’m sorry that you find this sorely disappointing, but I’m doing my best to use the same materials and methods that were used when the windows were originally constructed. To this end, any replacement timber used is the same type as that removed, i.e. pitch pine. This has added to the expense, but I don’t think adding in pressure-treated deal, silicone filler or plastic beading would be very sensitive.

I’m not sure I agree with your analogy of a horse and cart. I think I’d prefer to use the example of someone with a period house choosing shades and types of paint that were available at the time the house was built, rather than modern hues and finishes.

I’m not sure if there is a right answer – perhaps it comes down to taste (or lack thereof)?

I think I have some of the old type glass in my possession if you are interested.
Let me know and I’ll check my store for it.

@S.O.S. wrote:

I think I have some of the old type glass in my possession if you are interested.
Let me know and I’ll check my store for it.

FOC or €800

@Pot Noodle wrote:

FOC or €800

Thought as much

@Pot Noodle wrote:

Thought as much

I thought you weren’t commenting again?

Thanks for the offer S.O.S, but the guys have fitted all the glass now and they’ll be finishing the painting tomorrow. I’m so looking forward to getting my house back!

I’ve done a lot of research on the topic as I’ve mentioned here before, and I couldn’t say a bad work about Bolgers, they’ve given me nothing but help and advice and I think they’re fantastic. I have been in their workshops and I’ve seen first hand projects where they do salvage as much as possible on projects. Perhaps it was under different managment 10 years ago and hence your dissatisfaction, but certainly I’ve nothing but positive to say about them.

Bolgers will if they can conserve a sash window rather than replace it. Even if it means bringing it back to their workshop. If they find that the window is impossible to save they will match it with exact detail.

They have updated their website http://www.wjbolger.ie

These guys are brilliant, have used them for several Georgian and Victorian projects.

http://www.kellswindows.com/

@joyce wrote:

Bolgers will if they can conserve a sash window rather than replace it. Even if it means bringing it back to their workshop. If they find that the window is impossible to save they will match it with exact detail.

They have updated their website http://www.wjbolger.ie

Well you would say that wouldn’t you…

https://archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=62064&postcount=242

@snooky wrote:

Hi,

Does anyone know or can recommend sash window restoration/replacement company that will cover North County Dublin? We have three sash windows on our stone cottage (c. 1905), which need either restoring or replacing.

I am unsure how bad they have to be before they must be replaced?

Windows are 6 over 6, have no weights/pulley visible (must have been ripped out), and we can’t open them.. due to years of over painting I should think. One pane is cracked but the rest look ok. There’s some small amount of wood rotting at the bottom of one of the windows as far as I can see.. though difficult to tell how bad the windows are underneath all the paint. They still keep out the wind and rain though!.

Appreciate any advice. Thanks

hi snooky
did you get your window issue sorted, let me know if you still need help

@kingswood wrote:

hi snooky
did you get your window issue sorted, let me know if you still need help

The last tme snooky was on was April 05.

And I have first dibs:rolleyes:

Still trying
:o€800 you must be having a larf

@Pot Noodle wrote:

Still trying
:o€800 you must be having a larf

I have seen the work of some of my competition including Bolgers and ex-Bolgers staff.

They don’t bother to remove the old pulleys and put new ones in.

They use plastic parting beads (which are far cheaper than wooden ones) which can cause window frames to split.

They don’t bother to strip the paint from the sashes nor the frame.

These are the hardest parts of the job.

Most of them charge more than me

@Pot Noodle wrote:

i wont be commenting any more

LOL

Banker

I did some research and found that banker is a grave and personal insult.

Totally unnecessary:mad:

At least we know which banker gave you a debit card.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/essex/4741017.stm

Out of curiosity, S.O.S or Pot Noodle, what’s the industry norm cost to build a large segment-headed two-over-two sash window from scratch? Obviously I don’t want to start WWlll here, but a ballpark figure would be much appreciated.

(apologies, not looking for work at the minute)

And perhaps to steer things to a more constructive end, what sort of challenges are you facing in terms of energy conservation versus authentic design considerations? Particularly in relation to double glazing, but also Low-E glass etc. How have you found local authorities in their attitudes towards preserving the integrity of windows of Protected Structures you’ve worked on? Do they give a toss over detailing? How do you advise your clients that insist on an insulation gain with their reproduction sashes over first generation PVC they’re replacing?

It’d be most interesting to hear your thoughts on these matters given you’re at the coal face.

@GrahamH wrote:

Out of curiosity, S.O.S or Pot Noodle, what’s the industry norm cost to build a large segment-headed two-over-two sash window from scratch? Obviously I don’t want to start WWlll here, but a ballpark figure would be much appreciated.

(apologies, not looking for work at the minute)

And perhaps to steer things to a more constructive end, what sort of challenges are you facing in terms of energy conservation versus authentic design considerations? Particularly in relation to double glazing, but also Low-E glass etc. How have you found local authorities in their attitudes towards preserving the integrity of windows of Protected Structures you’ve worked on? Do they give a toss over detailing? How do you advise your clients that insist on an insulation gain with their reproduction sashes over first generation PVC they’re replacing?

It’d be most interesting to hear your thoughts on these matters given you’re at the coal face.

When you take out a large window surround, being at a coal face would be less dusty.:D

It is very hard to give exact prices because different people and jobs require different things.

If for example someone wanted to keep the glazing bars to the proper 19mm then it has to single glaze but if they want double glaze then the bars have to increase to around about 30mm or be 1 over 1 or to have those god awful white bars between the panes.

I’m in the process of building some double-glazed corded sash windows 1 over 1 with curved tops that cost €2250 each fully finished and installed.

On the other hand I have done square 2 over 2 single glazed windows for €1700.(3mm drawn glass).

Double glazing:-I use Pinkingtons low-e glass when asked to use double glazing.

I deal mainly with private customers and in any case always steer my clients matching original details, I just don’t see any reason why I shouldn’t.

Regarding the insulation of heat as we all know most of the heat lost from old houses is through the walls and ceilings.

Once the draught-proofing is in an old sash window it makes the whole house warmer.

BER ratings reflect this.

Speaking for myself I advise my customers when they have me in their house to get their front and back door draught proofed at the same time.

I think the local authorities generally speaking are dense and don’t understand the importance of the small details but I have met some architects who work for the council who really sparkle.

The enforcement section of DLRCoCo really stinks. I saw a fantastic old house on a hill some years ago had all its old windows (20) then recently I saw it again and all the windows had been torn out and replaced with god awful uPVC so I reported it and I was told I had to prove it. Madness

Thanks for that S.O.S – I’ll keep that quote in mind, unless Pot Noodle can beat it ;). Sounds about right!

When you say you use Pilkington glass if asked for double-glazing, do you mean you use single-glazed Pilkington as an alternative, or double-glazed Pilkington? What do you do when a client insists on double-glazing with a Georgian sash? Do you take a deep breath and go with 30mm bars or stick to your morals?

Also, what sort of thickness of d/g unit is best, and is it possible to putty in double-glazed units? It would appear that using clunky beading instead of putty is now the only barrier to an acceptable use of thin d/g units in sash windows (Victorian anyway, whatever of Georgian). The use of specially treated high performance single-glazing which acts the same as double-glazing (and as featured on Grand Designs last week) doesn’t seem to have caught on here. It’s been available for years! Have you ever made use of this? (apologies for the twenty questions)

It’s extraordinary the difference draught-proofing makes to sashes alright. Reducing the air changes in a room dramatically affects levels of heat retention. Indeed only recently I was in a modern house where the back door had a terrible draughty gap around the edges, and the room was about 50% colder than the rest of the house, in spite of having the same relative coverage of central heating.

@GrahamH wrote:

Thanks for that S.O.S – I’ll keep that quote in mind, unless Pot Noodle can beat it ;). Sounds about right!

The only way someone can beat my price or quality is to do crap work.

@GrahamH wrote:

When you say you use Pilkington glass if asked for double-glazing, do you mean you use single-glazed Pilkington as an alternative, or double-glazed Pilkington? What do you do when a client insists on double-glazing with a Georgian sash? Do you take a deep breath and go with 30mm bars or stick to your morals?.

If someone wants low-e glass they must use a double glazed unit. I aim for a 14mm unit to keep the sashes as thin as possible but if I have the room I go with a 18mm gas filled double glazed unit (can’t fit the nozzel into a 14mm unit).

If one of my customers insists on double glazing in a Georgian sash well its not possible unless you have a 30mm glazing bar even then there are no guarantees. I just say its not possible unless they go for 1/1 and stick those god awfulplastic bars onto them (which I won’t do)

@GrahamH wrote:

Also, what sort of thickness of d/g unit is best, and is it possible to putty in double-glazed units? It would appear that using clunky beading instead of putty is now the only barrier to an acceptable use of thin d/g units in sash windows (Victorian anyway, whatever of Georgian). The use of specially treated high performance single-glazing which acts the same as double-glazing (and as featured on Grand Designs last week) doesn’t seem to have caught on here. It’s been available for years! Have you ever made use of this? (apologies for the twenty questions).

First you can put linseed putty on a double glaxed unit if you protect the rubber compound from the linseed with silicone or similar (the name of the one I use which I won’t post).

I’m very interested in the name of that high preformance glass not k-glass is it.

@GrahamH wrote:

It’s extraordinary the difference draught-proofing makes to sashes alright. Reducing the air changes in a room dramatically affects levels of heat retention. Indeed only recently I was in a modern house where the back door had a terrible draughty gap around the edges, and the room was about 50% colder than the rest of the house, in spite of having the same relative coverage of central heating.

The best way I found to draught proof a door is to route a groove around the door and install the same draught proofing I use for my sash windows.

Makes the door more difficult to open and close but by god it is very effective.

S.O.S. (Save Our Sashes)

S.O.S.

What advice can you give on replacing/restoring a set of bay windows such as in the attached picture. While the timber looks sound I really need to consider the fact that it is only single glazing and I will be getting house dry-lined new heating etc. so a total replacement with new double glazed seems to be the compelling option. Other houses on the street have gone for PVC and Aluminium clad timber but they still don’t look as nice as the original timber. I am putting it all out to tender with Cork based companies so if you have any pointers on keeping the cost down i would really appreciate it.

@brainscan wrote:

S.O.S.

What advice can you give on replacing/restoring a set of bay windows such as in the attached picture. While the timber looks sound I really need to consider the fact that it is only single glazing and I will be getting house dry-lined new heating etc. so a total replacement with new double glazed seems to be the compelling option. Other houses on the street have gone for PVC and Aluminium clad timber but they still don’t look as nice as the original timber. I am putting it all out to tender with Cork based companies so if you have any pointers on keeping the cost down i would really appreciate it.

If you replace those windows you will become my enemy for life;)

One of the big problems with sashes made for double glazed units is the the companies that make them can’t keep the size of the sash down (2.25″-2.5″), so you end up with the frame being too big.

I can’t post which company I use for my materials but if you PM me your phone number I can go through the process with you.

S.O.S.

A grand array of handsome sashes there brainscan. Good to see retention is on the cards!

Thanks for all the replies S.O.S – most informative. On one last point, and based upon the above case, is it possible in most cases to double-glaze a typical single-pane sash window, or is it very much joint solidity and member size dependant? Say in a typical 1900 house where the original glass has long vanished?

It’s issues such as these, which involve the retention of original fabric while offering a energy-saving solution, that aren’t getting enough public airing.

@GrahamH wrote:

A grand array of handsome sashes there brainscan. Good to see retention is on the cards!.

If he isn’t keeping them he’ll be in trouble with me:D

@GrahamH wrote:

On one last point, and based upon the above case, is it possible in most cases to double-glaze a typical single-pane sash window, or is it very much joint solidity and member size dependant? Say in a typical 1900 house where the original glass has long vanished? .

I’ve put double glazing into some old sashes (only 1 customer ever insisted on it) but they must be 1/1 and the joints must be strenghtened other wise they could and very probably will fail after a time.

I always strongle advise people not to get D/G done to old sashes but given the choice between someone binning the old sashes or me putting D/G into them, it’s an easy choice for me.

@GrahamH wrote:

It’s issues such as these, which involve the retention of original fabric while offering a energy-saving solution, that aren’t getting enough public airing.

The economics of putting double glazing into old sashes is shaky, it is my belief proper draught proofing can make a set of draughty old windows much more comfortable for the inhabitances of a house.

S.O.S.

Thanks S.O.S.

Fully agreed about the limited benefits of double-glazing relative to the poor isulation value of old walls, floors and non-draught-proofed windows. But the way I see it, if we want to get real about energy conservation while also restoring historic detail to houses where original windows have long since disappeared, it is essential that double glazing forms part of that process. There is no way the average joe public is going to sacrifice double-glazed PVC or aluminium frames for a single-glazed sash, however well draught-proofed or aesthetically pleasing. This results in a net energy loss to the property (whatever of the manufacturing process which is likely to be a different story).

As such, the sooner we formulate and make viable a well-detailed, historically appropriate double-glazed sash or equivalant – preferably involving a single-glazed pane of double-glazed value – the better. It’s probably fair to say that on a national basis 50 per cent of historic buildings have lost their original windows. To have even a fraction of these reinstated on an energy-conscious basis would be extremely worthwhile, even if limited to Victorian single-pane examples.

Lofty conservation professionals appear to forget the ranks of typical two-up two-down houses that proliferate in every urban area, never mind smaller or slightly larger houses (and all of which suffer the greatest loss of window fabric of our wider building stock). These require and deserve sensitive reinstatement as much as larger flagship properties where authentic detailing is obviously equally desirable. The sooner we get away from the horrendously detailed and manufactured rubbish being thrown at these buildings in the name of energy conservation, towards a more aesthetically pleasing and probably more efficient model, the better it will be for both property owners and our built heritage.

(and to clarify I obviously do not advocate the replacement of original fabric where it survives)

@GrahamH wrote:

The use of specially treated high performance single-glazing which acts the same as double-glazing (and as featured on Grand Designs last week) doesn’t seem to have caught on here. It’s been available for years!

Can you get me the name of this glass

Not sure if anybody is interested but I’ve heard from 2 different sources that Bolgers have gone out of business.

@S.O.S. wrote:

Can you get me the name of this glass

Sorry S.O.S., forgot about this. Here is the website of the company featured on Grand Designs.

http://www.slimliteglass.co.uk/home.html

(try to muddle through the desperately written text)

Looking at their product, it’s clear Kevin McCloud was incorrect in describing the glass as being single-glazed – it is in fact double-glazed. Nonetheless, it is still remarkably thin, at only 12mm for the slimmest of units. The perimeter seal is also only 5mm wide, meaning it is invisible when used with a standard 6-7mm rebate in a glazing bar. The type of spacing used also eliminates cold bridging at the edges, common with typical double-glazing. They claim their units can be used for most single-glazed applications.

Thanks Graham

@GrahamH wrote:

Sorry S.O.S., forgot about this. Here is the website of the company featured on Grand Designs.

http://www.slimliteglass.co.uk/home.html

(try to muddle through the desperately written text)

Looking at their product, it’s clear Kevin McCloud was incorrect in describing the glass as being single-glazed – it is in fact double-glazed. Nonetheless, it is still remarkably thin, at only 12mm for the slimmest of units. The perimeter seal is also only 5mm wide, meaning it is invisible when used with a standard 6-7mm rebate in a glazing bar. The type of spacing used also eliminates cold bridging at the edges, common with typical double-glazing. They claim their units can be used for most single-glazed applications.

Problem with those units is they are too heavy for delicate sashes

Indeed. I’d like to see them attempting to tackle a dainty number like this.

While not loosing sleep as such I have to say I’m in a dilly of a pickle over the windows in my c.1900 2 up 2 down. The three 2/2 sash windows to the front have long since been replaced by PVC dross which has since warped and requires replacement. For sport I went into a uPVC joint in Fairview who gave me a rough quote of €5k spend. BTW, the road is now a mix of uPVC and new 1/1 wooden sash. Not an original 2/2 remains.

@Rusty Cogs wrote:

While not loosing sleep as such I have to say I’m in a dilly of a pickle over the windows in my c.1900 2 up 2 down. The three 2/2 sash windows to the front have long since been replaced by PVC dross which has since warped and requires replacement. For sport I went into a uPVC joint in Fairview who gave me a rough quote of €5k spend. BTW, the road is now a mix of uPVC and new 1/1 wooden sash. Not an original 2/2 remains.

Rusty Cogs, I know what it costs to produce uPVC windows they cost almost nothing to produce I know a guy in NI who will give me windows for €100 each and that is with him making a prodit, I really can’t understand how uPVC people can charge as much as they do.

I know what goes into making up and down sliding sash windows, all the components are expensive but it really has to be pointed out again and again uPVC is not long lasting (20-30 years ) hardwood sash windows are built for 2 or 3 lifetimes (100-200 years).

Even if you put that point to people, you’d get the answer ‘well why should I have to pay for other generations’ windows?’! It’s a fair enough point, purely on the basis of personal economics.

Also, it’s incredibly difficult to get people to implement a net loss in insulation, heat and sound, by removing old PVC windows (a growing isssue) and replacing them with single-glazed sashes according to historic detail. And as Rusty observes, the explosion in poor double-glazed reproduction sashes is having an adverse impact on the survival of a design record on a street, where single-pane units are now commonly replacing two-over-twos and Georgian sashes. Indeed, I know of a prominent public building that for years I thought once had one-over-ones on the basis of its (good) repro sashes, until I happened upon an old photograph showing two-over-twos. As a rural building, it took on an entirely different character and style – even the date shifted by a couple of decades. At least PVC glazing rarely lied about the former glazing pattern. And of course, this issue pales into insignificance when considering the rubbish detailing of the majority of repro sashes.

I’m not sure what I would do if I was in Rusty’s position. I wouldn’t care about the heat loss, as it’s meagre, but sound insulation is important. Especially as none of these streets were originally built with motorised traffic in mind. Buses in particular are a killer for sound pollution. I’d suffer for style I suppose.

@GrahamH wrote:

I’d suffer for style I suppose.

Pride feels no pain 😉

@snooky wrote:

Hi,

Does anyone know or can recommend sash window restoration/replacement company that will cover North County Dublin? We have three sash windows on our stone cottage (c. 1905), which need either restoring or replacing.

I am unsure how bad they have to be before they must be replaced?

Windows are 6 over 6, have no weights/pulley visible (must have been ripped out), and we can’t open them.. due to years of over painting I should think. One pane is cracked but the rest look ok. There’s some small amount of wood rotting at the bottom of one of the windows as far as I can see.. though difficult to tell how bad the windows are underneath all the paint. They still keep out the wind and rain though!.

Appreciate any advice. Thanks

Hi,
Have you found a company yet. I have a small business in that field. Feel free to call me 087 2867208 – Kenneth Connor

Paste the link below to view some of our work
http://picasaweb.google.com/Heritage.Joinery.Ireland/HeritageJoineryPortfolio?feat=directlink