Never Mind Cafe Bars

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Not good news for Cork business, but possibly necessary and justified if demographic trends are to be followed.

Unless we increase pub licences, which would keep these pubs intact. Ireland is over centralised – the number of pubs need to be regulated at the local level.

Publicans can fuck off as far as I’m concerned – they complain when liberalisation of the licences is proposed, get the cafe bar thing off the agenda. And then have the gall to complain that there aren’t enough pubs! The mind boggles

Oh and as Eddie Hobbs pointed out the other night Dublin has 35% of the population and 9% of the pubs – no wonder prices are at a premium for licences.

This is the fault of the publicans – they made their bed let them lie in it!

Kind of agree with Rory W’s comment. Publicans do like to whine when their wallets are under threat. I am not sure, however, that simply increasing the number of pub licenses in Dublin or anywhere else will help in the long term. What is needed is greater diversification in the concept of socializing in Ireland. Is the pub the only thing that we can come up with for socializing or can be possibly conceive of other alternatives for passing the winter (and summer and autumn and spring) months. Architects’ views would be helpful.

I wouldn’t mind a few starbucks, myself. If by socialising you mean – in the Irish fashion – talking to people rather than doing stuff with people then it has to be cafes, restaurants or pubs.

What is needed is greater diversification in the concept of socializing in Ireland

What, we need more wine bars? Or bowling alleys? People do go to the cinema frequently, and participate in sports.

In any case the loss of a rural pub is a loss of identity.

The simple solution is to either get rid of the licencing system or break the current licences down into categories based on size, that is, have small, medium, large, and super licences.
This would quickly stop the practice of taking the licence off a small city centre bar in Co Cork and using it to build a barn pub in Co Dublin.
I agree with Eddie Hobbs arguments about some things relating to licencing. For instance, we all know that the argument linking more licences to increased drinking is completely spurious, not least because it was put forward by the vintners to kill off the cafe bar idea.
But his statistic about how “Dublin has 35% of the population and 9% of the pubs” is a little bit misleading because if you were to work it out on a square footage basis, Dublin would acutally be competing very nicely.
While a rural Irish town might have twelve pubs on its main street, their combined area often wouldn’t make one Cafe En Seine or Zanzibar.
Also, the notion that super-pubs are intrinsically bad is misleading. In Dublin’s more recent suburbs, where there were perhaps no pubs at one stage, large pubs contribute as much to the local community as much, if not more as the small pubs of rural Ireland.
This is my personal experience, where on any given night in the large local suburban pub near where I grew up but where I don’t live now, I might meet half a dozen people from my school days, childhood etc.
If there were twelve different bars instead, that dynamic would disappear.

Good to see that Ireland is open to re-thinking and re-vitalising its identity. Must dig out the ham and cabbage tonight and rap an aul spud in a sock for my lunch tomorrow – it would go down grand with a drop of porter. No wasn’t quite thinking about Starbucks, bowling alleys and the cinema (mind you, if the latter two provided an alternative to sitting down stationery in front of a pint glass for four hours bemoaning how there is nothing to do in Ballygobackwards, I would probably welcome them). Communicating with your fellow Irish man or woman can also be done in various other ways – a more developed cafe culture perhaps (while the weather in Ireland doesn’t provide for an outdoor cafe culture in the way that it does in our European neighbours, architects could consider ways of designing buildings which would integrate (in imaginative ways) green spaces and open landscapes that would provide an alternative to the dark clausterphobic design of our all-too numerous plastic modern pubs. Of course, introducing and accepting a more developed cafe culture also requires a shift in mentality – it doesn’t necessarily have to be associated with D4 types, time to get over the limitations of bog-man begrudgery and aw-be-jaysusishness – even Paddy the farmer can enjoy something other than a Nescafe now and then. Better designed and purpose built public spaces/parks/walking areas might also encourage people to move away from the pub table now and then (such parks designed in combination with cafes etc might help). A more developed restaurant industry would help. Innovative uses of public buildings (art galleries, musuems – e.g. an evening when all musuems in Dublin would open free for the entire night, such as exists in Vienna, etc) for exhibitions and other events could help. More social events focussed on kids events would help. Greater development of a diversity of non-GAA sporting activities would help. Alternatives exist – they might require lateral thinking and an occasional glance away from a pint glass, but many countries outside of Ireland and England have managed to find alternatives. Designing and propagating suitable public spaces and cafes and restaurents might play a part.

Thats pie in the sky nonsense for most of rural Ireland ( served with a large dollop of sleveeness, I have to say). Most countries outside Ireland and England *may* have alternatives, but so what – that is their culture, retrofitting continental cafes onto an Irish village is the worst example of kitsch.

And most of what you say is available in Dublin: sure Temple Bar is the left bank with all kinds of galleries and wine tasting. Go there. The thread is about rural pub depopulation.

it is also rather option to mention the kids as in “More social events focussed on kids events would help” : not any kind of socializing I want to be involved in – it wont. Keep those kids away. thank you.

I am not so sure that we need ” Greater development of a diversity of non-GAA sporting activities would help.” in fact I imagine Irish people more kinds of sport than most other countries already, and then go to the pub.

Nobody is asking you to dig out the ham and cabbage, enjoy a zucchini all you want , but i take Richard’s point that “government policy is destroying the very fabric of our cities and countries.” with regard to rural pubs. (We could still have lots more Starbucks though !)

We can’t ape Italy because we are not Italy.

( I cant find it online but I read on a plane in America a vicious attack on modern Dublin in a glossy tourist magazine precisely because of the Wine bar attitude).

you make some good points here PDLL… there is actually a very vibrant social scene out there if only people had enough imagination to try something different. Seems to have been no end to festivals this year…. im tripping over them.

@asdasd wrote:

Thats pie in the sky nonsense for most of rural Ireland ( served with a large dollop of sleveeness, I have to say). Most countries outside Ireland and England *may* have alternatives, but so what – that is their culture, retrofitting continental cafes onto an Irish village is the worst example of kitsch.

And most of what you say is available in Dublin: sure Temple Bar is the left bank with all kinds of galleries and wine tasting. Go there. The thread is about rural pub depopulation.

it is also rather option to mention the kids as in “More social events focussed on kids events would help” : not any kind of socializing I want to be involved in – it wont. Keep those kids away. thank you.

I am not so sure that we need ” Greater development of a diversity of non-GAA sporting activities would help.” in fact I imagine Irish people more kinds of sport than most other countries already, and then go to the pub.

Nobody is asking you to dig out the ham and cabbage, enjoy a zucchini all you want , but i take Richard’s point that “government policy is destroying the very fabric of our cities and countries.” with regard to rural pubs. (We could still have lots more Starbucks though !)

We can’t ape Italy because we are not Italy.

( I cant find it online but I read on a plane in America a vicious attack on modern Dublin in a glossy tourist magazine precisely because of the Wine bar attitude).

What you say is true – it is pie in the sky nonsense for rural Ireland, but 20 years ago it was pie in the sky to think that Ireland would have one motorway let alone a motorway network. Times change, attitudes change. It is healthy to re-envision what Ireland is and could be. What you say is true – Italy is Italy, Ireland is Ireland. I am not advocating building St. Mark’s Piazza on O’Connell bridge, but it is slightly ironic that an Irishman would criticise the ‘Continentalization’ of Ireland when we have been planting ridiculous Tetrapak Irish pubs in every village in Europe for years. The Irish are the masters at this form of cultural colonization It is one thing seeing ‘ O’Reilly’s Pub’ in London, it is another thing seeing it in Lillebonne. That is the worst form of kitsch. Agreed, Temple Bar offers some alternatives, but it all boils down to the same thing – vomit, slappers, piss, and the pint. Time for real alternatives??? If this is all we can come up with – and that appears to be the case, then truly we lack vision. If locking the kids away so daddy can puke his ring up in peace is all we can come up with, then truly we lack vision. You are right, the thread is about rural pub depopulation and the Government’s handling/mishandling of the situation – it is exactly within that context that I would appreciate suggestions on how the socio-cultural gap can be filled in a manner that befits the Irish social landscape and which doesn’t necessarily involve sitting down endlessly looking at a pint. If we can come up with no other solution to the ‘problem’ of rural pub depopulation other than rural pub repopulation, then we truly don’t deserve the billions in funds we get from Europe.

First off, let’s start with Eddie Hobbs! As a fella Cork man I’m embarrassed to say he hails from the same county as me! Surely any social commentator needs to give a balanced view to a debate. Eddie is a smart boy, preaching to the masses in a language which the majority will understand, ie. the language of a child (while lining his pockets at the same time). I like many others on different forums find his talking down/dumbing down of these issues to be quiet offensive. Let’s take his second show on RTE for example; here Eddie presented to us, the public, with the break down on the price of a pint of stout. For all of us ‘stupid viewers’ out there Eddie used three parties involved in the price of a pint: the Brewer, the Government and the fat cat Publican.

His breakdown was similar to this, take the average price of a pint at €3.42, give €1.06 to the Government in taxes, €0.85 to the brewer and who gets the remaining €1.51, you’ve guessed it – the publican. In your best Cork accent now folks ‘That’s an astounding €1.51 profit for the public’.

Well Eddie, fair play no lies there, just one minor omission, this €1.51 is GROSS profit, and unlike Eddie I’m going to be brave and acknowledge that the majority of people out their will recognise the difference between GROSS and NET profit. Rates, insurance, heating, electricity, staff, maintenance, mortgages etc. take a nice little cut out of your €1.51 PROFIT! But I’m sure any mildly intelligent person with even the slightest bit of Junior Cert Business Studies would realise that!

So there’s my rant about Eddie, the man with the business acumen of a duck!

Now from reading the above you probably realise I have a little vested interest in the Irish pub, spot on, I grew up in one. The typical rural public house, pub downstairs, 3 beds upstairs. The local population of 1200 have for many years, been served by three locals, all with their equal share of the business, each also sharing their ups & downs over the years. PDLL’s view of modern rural Ireland, where have you been man? Rural Ireland isn’t what it was 50 years ago. Our clientele, as I’m sure the majority of locals dotted around the country, is made up of a broad section of modern Ireland, farmers, businesswomen & men, tradesmen, even the odd detective, and one retired gent of 85 who has 2 pints of Murphy’s every night!! Conversation ranges from current affairs to the match at the weekend or the wedding last weekend. The GAA boys will come down after training, and couples will drop in after coming home from a performance in the theatre. A pint is €3.20 and a pint of Coke is €2.00. Prices like this are on a par throughout rural Ireland, save a few pence more in tourist areas.

The situation with the closing down of rural pubs has been coming with years, unless inherited the rural pub is not a viable investment, therefore if no one in the family (as most rural pubs are) decides to take over the pub, the license will be sold to a city/large town. What is happening needs to happen, the pendulum needs to swing to balance the spread off licenses in the country. 10 pubs in a small Irish village is not good for any party involved, either the punter or the publican. In my honest opinion there is enough licenses to sell alcohol in this country, the problem is that there distribution is all too random. What is happening now will hopefully redress this situation.

P.S: I’ve lived in Dublin for the last number of years, I can get a pint in Temple Bar for €3.00 from the time the pub opens until it closes, and if I want, I can go three minutes up the street and pay €5.05 for a pint in the sin jin.

P.P.S: I just had a coffee there in Costa (coastalot) in Douglas, €2.75 for a medium Americano, reading the property section of the indo while having a smoke in their outdoor seating area. The paper blew away in the gale!!!! Café culture my ass!!!!

MacM – you speak a fair bit of sense, especially with regard to Hobbs’ presentation of the situation in Ireland. Mind you, given the complexity of the Irish economic mess, it is good to go back to basics sometimes. I also accept your credible points on the clientele of the typical Irish rural pub. In that regard, though, I am not advocating the removal or replacement of all local rural Irish pubs – just some diversification in the socializing sphere in Ireland partly to allow greater consumer choice (and not just financial choice, but lifestyle choice) but also as an attempt to reshape the cultural image of modern Ireland.

The notion implicit in many definitions of Irish culture is that it is equatable with drink and pubs and very little else. The question I am asking is ‘is this the best we can do?’. How many other cultures reduce themselves to one cultural expression and one so basic and arguably immature as ‘the pint’. Do the French see their culture only as ‘the glass’ or the Italians as ‘the pizza’. No. Oddly enough, this emphasis on alcohol as being the only form of traditional Irish cultural expression (other than trad. music which is intimately associated with the pint) simply plays into the hands of all of those English colonial stereotypes of the Irish – the lazy rowdy drunken and ungovernable Irish etc. I am sure that many republican pint guzzlers would be angry to think that they are simply honouring the time-honoured tradition of British imperialism in reducing us to a nation of alcoholic idiots. The only other reason I can think of for generating this image of ourselves is to play into the hands of US tourists to win over their dollars with our ribald stories of intoxication. If neither of these are not applicable why then do we create this myth that ‘the pint’ = ‘Irishness’ = Irish cultural expression.

What has this got to do with a thread on rural pub de-population and architecture? Most would agree that apart from rampant greed, the main social problems in Ireland can be ranked as follows: underage drinking, road fatalities (partly caused by an insane road network, insane and inappropriate speed limits, and alcohol), traffic congestion, inadequate transport infrastructure, poor quality of life in many ‘depressed’ rural areas (e.g consider the suicide rate in the north west and the border counties and the rate of alcoholism in general), unemployment in some rural areas, etc. How can the depopulation of rural pubs be seen as an opportunity for assisting progress in such issues?

The government has outlined its national spatial strategy and has, subject to debate, started to put that strategy into practice. While benefiting many small-medium towns and urban centres, it doesn’t really breath much life into many of the smaller towns and villages of Ireland. Many smaller villages have complained that the creation of a motorway network will spell the end of their existence as no one will stop in for a quick Supermacs burger or pint on their way from Dublin to Achill. What if, however, the creation of such a road network was used by the Government and local authorities to systematically develop rural villages by redesigning their socio-spatial orientation. At present, most villages (e.g Gort) are merely busy national primary routes which happen to have houses on either side of them. As accidental onlookers of Ireland’s car madness, the inhabitants of these villages are limited in terms of the way they live – for those of you who know Gort, for example, even if Ireland had 30 degree summers, very few would want to sit outside a café or pub on the main street on a summer’s evening. Just too much damned carbon monoxide and no chance of the kids running around freely while you enjoy your social evening out. What if the traffic was re-directed through a motorway (or other non-through road), the main street of Gort was pedestrianised, the square in Gort was changed from a car park into a paved area with public gardens, a playground, and around that, some pubs, restaurants, and cafes were dotted (perhaps with large front windows which could be opened fully on to the street during the occasional good summer – this is where architects come up with good ideas for creating such convertible social spaces which would also have appropriate winter uses). In short, create an integrated pedestrianised social space that would facilitate public socialising in good weather and that would prove attractive for tourists who may want to stay and linger and enjoy such things as the trad. Irish pub. The advantages: improved quality of life in rural villages, improved appearance of run-down villages – less dirt from cars, less noise, less carbon monoxide, less danger to pedestrians, more tourism (reduced unemployment, higher retention rate of tourists staying in such villages), long-term increase in civic pride in townscapes, safer and healthier environment for children, less traffic bottlenecks, and with the intermix of traditional pubs (ok, fewer in number but still there), modern cafes, restaurants etc, and improved public spaces it may offer alternatives to endless evenings sitting in front of the pint. What is at issue is not simply cutting out the traditional pub and implanting falsified café bars with Latino themes and music, it is about integrating different forms of socializing so as to offer diversity and it is about taking the chance to mould a new form of townscape in Ireland as part of our national spatial strategy.

Of course I will be accused of utopianism and maybe there is a good dash of that thrown into my thinking (I admit), but all of the above is possible with time and with a fundamental change in mentality that sees us as nothing more than grubby little peasants poking our way along on a rain soaked evening from one darkened hole of a public house across a street illuminated only by the Galway to Limerick traffic to another darkened hole of a public house. Is this the limit of the vision of modern Ireland – socially, architecturally, culturally, spatially? If so, the imperial stereotypes applied to us for 800 years may have some truth to them.

With the depopulation of Irish rural pubs, I would be genuinely interested in knowing how some architects would approach the issue of re-inventing the rural Irish social landscape through re-designing the spaces we use for public socialising (and that does not depend on using old pieces of church furniture to adorn pubs). This may also make rural Ireland more attractive and may act as a way of bringing people back from Dublin where many go to enjoy its ‘cosmopolitan’ feel.

MacM – as regards the price of coffee etc – this is another issue – the government has to do something to make soft drinks and coffee/tea etc more attractive options. This is back to Ireland’s economic mess.

@PDLL wrote:

The government has outlined its national spatial strategy and has, subject to debate, started to put that strategy into practice.

Decentralisation

Im lookin forward to his programme tonight that is on the tolls and other transport or lack of trnasport stuff

Just found a reference to an Irish bar in a hotel in Chisinau, capital of Moldova. Irland uber alles.