Mountjoy Square

maybe if the buses were actually present in our bus corridors …..:mad:

@GrahamH wrote:

Indeed one would wonder if it is the intention of Bus Átha Cliath to comandeer the entire north inner city for bus parking – goodness knows most of the city’s principal thoroughfares are already gridlocked with the heaving yellow wall that is the BAC fleet. Yes, they’ve ever-expanding services – and much more yet to come – that need to be accommodated somewhere, but it ought to be in a planned fashion with proper depots. This just takes the biscuit.

City centre bus depots are a bit of an anachronism these days. Surely all – or most – services should be cross city where possible, with depots at a remove from the city centre. The recent proposal for a bus interchange on Strand Street (currently on appeal to ABP, as far as I know) is yet another example of BAC’s narrow focus and lack of vision for its route network.

Anyway, I’m getting off topic. I read the article in the paper this afternoon and was pretty shocked. You hit the nail on the head, Graham, regarding the northside / southside difference of approach, as was mentioned by the resident quoted in the article. As if the northside Georgian core hasn’t been shat on enough already…

Yes I would have thought that re city centre bus depots. I don’t know much about transport planning, and I’m sure a certain member can bring us up to speed specifically regarding BAC, but it would seem something of an outdated concept at this stage to terminate so many buses in the city centre. Seemingly another knock on effect of ‘An Lárism’.

Either way, dumping them on any city street, let alone a residential Georgian square, is as offensive to citizens as it is degrading to the space that hosts them. Nassau Street is barely excusable as it is as a lop-sided thoroughfare, never mind a coherent planned space as significant as Mountjoy Square.

Above all, it’s this type of insidious development that so undermines the north inner city: a myriad of niggling, degrading, insignificant developments that combine to create nothing short of a no-go area. Just as Parnell Street became the service lane and back yard for the retail heart of the city in the 1980s, the same approach is now underhandedly creeping in with the north Georgian core. There’s nobody at a high level shouting stop.

Parnell Sq West = 11 parked buses
Eden Quary = 10 buses
Marlborough Street = 8 buses
Pearse St = 6 buses

All parked this morning like a big yellow ugly wall. Very depressing

@ctesiphon wrote:

City centre bus depots are a bit of an anachronism these days. Surely all – or most – services should be cross city where possible, with depots at a remove from the city centre………..QUOTE]

Absolutely, it makes no sense that most buses dont cross the city, typical horsesh*t that we have to deal with.
Wasnt it something to do with the bus drivers unions not wanting it or something?

and you thought mountjoy was bad????
dublin is the main bus depot of dublin bus!!!!!!!

Most of the bus routes added in the last year have been cross city but there is still no priority measures to help buses get through the city. DCC have done nothing to keep buses moving so terminating them in the city centre is the only way to keep them operating to a reasonably reliable timetable.

@markpb wrote:

DCC have done nothing to keep buses moving so terminating them in the city centre is the only way to keep them operating to a reasonably reliable timetable.

With due respect, this is total guff – Broadstone is closer, and Summerhill is adjacent. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for a Georgian Square to be turned into a bus depot …and what’s worse is that although it has been marked out for Dublin Bus – it is primarily private buses that are parking up – just look at Graham’s photo;3 of the 4 buses are private, sitting in what is supposed to be Dublin Bus only provision Who benefits? 😡

East Side – note the how kids using the playground can cross the road between the buses:

I have also inspected this myself and found:

South Side of the Square – for a real addition to any architecural set piece, just add a wall of buses:

While on the North side of the Square, where there is a school nursery in a wooden building, again there is now private buses sitting adjacent in what is supposed to be only spaces for Dublin Bus:

Who benefits? And God forbid, but in the event of an accident where say a child may be fatally injured by one of the private buses, as it is in a Dublin Bus bay, might they be held liable?

Also are buses on the west side, sharing parking with cars…and if that’s not enough there’s also Mountjoy Place off the Square, linking to Summerhill Bus Depot…And guess what? There was yet another private bus parked in a Dublin Bus space. Unbelievable:

An Taisce have issued a release which raises a lot of questions as to compliance with the city development plan. If – as it is claimed – that the roads dept officials made this arrangement without the necessary mandate, serious disciplinary measures must be taken against them. What public sector officials are involved with here is comparable with Jim Mansfield and Weston, and leaves Noel O’ Gara and Dartmouth Square in the shade. To turn Mountjoy Square into a wrap-around bus-depot is about as culturally appropriate as it would be to turn Newgrange into a roundabout – it is an absolute scandal 😡

An Taisce supports Dublin City Councillors in opposing Mountjoy Square being developed as a Bus Depot.

8th November 2007

Ireland’s National Trust, An Taisce, is calling on Dublin City Council
roads department to reverse the development of Mountjoy Square for use
as a bus depot, which is contrary to the City Development Plan.

Mountjoy Square is considered by many to be the finest example of
Dublin’s planned Georgian Squares, built between circa 1790 -1820.
Apart from the architectural heritage, it is worth noting that many
historical and literary figures had connections with it, including the
writers O’ Casey, Joyce, and Yeats, and also the patriots Michael
Collins and John O’ Leary.

It is with dismay that the Trust notes that after many years of
decline, the streetscapes of the square have been re-instated – only
for an on-street bus depot to be now developed around three and a half
sides of the park thus far – with more on the way.

All of this has been done without any consultation, and the cumulative
effect is to turn the square into a wrap-around bus depot. While An
Taisce is in favour of public transport, it is clearly not appropriate
that a Georgian Square should be developed by the backdoor into a bus
depot – especially as the large land bank of Broadstone Station is
closer to the city centre.

It is worth noting that contained in the Mountjoy Square park are a
childrens’ playground and also a nursery school – while across the
road is a crèche; hence the effect is that a bus depot has been
developed in the middle of a triangle of child-focused facilities. We
believe that this poses obvious health and safety implications, as
children must now pass between parked buses when crossing the street.

It is also noted that diesel exhaust fumes poise a particular threat
to children, and that a number of studies have been carried out
including that by Dr Jonathan Grigg at the Institute for Lung Health
at the University of Leicester, as published by the British Thoracic
Society journal Thorax.

In view of these concerns, An Taisce wishes to ask the city officials
responsible for authorizing the depot as to the assessments that would
have been conducted in planning the new arrangement.

In particular, if details could be provided as to projections
regarding operational air impact, total air emissions, operational
noise assessment, analysis of activities of waste generation, and
proposals for management of the same. Also helpful would be the
quantitative methodology assessment used to address these impacts can
be provided, and also any proposals regarding mitigation of
non-compliance.

Noting that the City Development Plan defines a “Transport Depot” as
“Use of a building or land as a depot associated with the operation of
transport business to include parking and servicing of vehicles”, An
Taisce is of the belief that the development throws up a host of
issues relating to the compliance with the City Development Plan.
These include policies in:

The Arts, Culture, and Tourism chapter, which states:

POLICY ACT11
It is the policy of Dublin City Council to ensure a high quality
public domain in the vicinity of cultural and heritage buildings and,
where possible, to ensure that such buildings are linked to public
spaces and to the wider open space network.

POLICY ACT12
It is the policy of Dublin City Council, through land use zoning,
policies and objectives, to protect and improve the tourism and
cultural amenities of Dublin city. Dublin City Council will seek to
protect the natural and built environment, which forms the basis of
the city’s attractiveness for tourists.

The Transport Chapter, which under 7.7.0 identifies the need
“to eliminate the hazards of unsuitable lorry and bus parking in
residential and other areas”

The Recreational Amenity Chapter states:

“POLICY RO1
It is the policy of Dublin City Council to continue to manage and
protect public open spaces to meet the social, recreational,
conservational and ecological needs of the city, and to consider the
development of appropriate complementary facilities, which do not
detract from the amenities of spaces.”

Heritage Policy

“POLICY H13
It is the policy of Dublin City Council to protect and enhance the
character and historic fabric of conservation areas in the control of
development.”

And also 10.2.1 – Conservation Areas:

“Dublin has international importance as a Georgian city and this has
been reflected in the designation of the Georgian core as a
conservation area (Z8). A considerable part of the city centre is
comprised of Georgian terraces and planned squares which established a
national urban idiom. The Georgian area has experienced change and
development pressures over the past decades, with obsolescence being a
feature of parts of the north city.”

“The special value of conservation areas lies in the architectural
design and scale of these areas and is of sufficient importance to
require special care in dealing with development proposals and works
by the private and public sector alike. Dublin City Council will thus
seek to ensure that development proposals within all conservation
areas complement the character of the area, including the setting of
protected structures, and comply with development standards. “

And also Childrens Play Space, 15.2.1, which states

“Playgrounds should be located so that nuisance is minimised but
should be overlooked informally from dwellings or frequented roads or
footpaths.”

In view of these reservations, and until there are clarifications on
these matters, An Taisce wishes to support the vote by Dublin City
Councillors taken last Monday night which requests council officials
to immediately suspend the new bus designations pending the outcome of
a forthcoming review.

Ends.

For further information, please call 01 454 1786

And while I was in that area of the city, I also made it my business to inspect Dublin Bus’s existing facilities – and as you can see, the lads really need the extra space gleaned from their land-grab:

Summerhill Dublin Bus depot:

And also Broadstone Dublin Bus depot:

As I said, the lads really need the additional space. They are also exemplary mangers of period buildings and public space under their control – as can be seen with the front of Mulvany’s Egyptian Revival essay of Broadstone:

^Nice, isn’t it? Obviously a big clean-up has happened since it was last photoed and discussed on this site:rolleyes: (see https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=1838&page=2 )
Can we expect them to do any better by turning Mountjoy Square into a bus dump? 😡

But the real shame in all of this is that Mountjoy Square is being shat on from a height – and primarily by state agencies either carrying out non-compliant works, or tolerating others who are pulling fast ones. Here’s another new addition to Mountjoy Square, at the SE corner – a digital billboard advertising Clerys/ Qpark car park on Marlborough St:

Again as with the new bus depot, there was no notice about this, so after checking with the DCC planning desk which confirmed that no planning application was made, I checked with Clerys – and they are telling me that it was DCC who chose the location for this yoke. A quick check with the City Development Plan reveals that there is a specific policy that relates to this; Chapter 10, pages 72 -73,
POLICY H14: “It is the policy of Dublin City Council that in conservation areas particular consideration will be given to any new signage erected in order to preserve the character of the area.”
How is this compliant? Why the blazes are the officials charged with protecting our city leading the way in wrecking it? 😡

Finally one last snap that was sent thru to me, where works were recently started by a Mr Kevin Kelly on no. 1 Mountjoy Square. As some of you may already be aware there were already concerns about this house following a fire that happened last Christmas; as the house was used as a location by the First Dail, it has already featured as a cause for concern by the Heritage Protection Alliance:
@hutton wrote:

1 MOUNTJOY SQUARE, DUBLIN CITY

A house of significant cultural importance. Left neglected and empty with deadbolts on the front door, this house had been in the charitable hands of a religious institution until it was sold a decade ago. Subsequently sub-divided and let out in multiple occupancies, a fire occurred at the house last Christmas (December 2006). This was a location of Dail Eireann which met here during 1919 and 1920 when owned by Alderman Walter Coles, who also let Michael Collins use of the address as a safe house during The War of Independence. Previously it had been the residence of Home Rule MP T.M. Healy,

Not that such matters were going to get in the way of the works started by Mr. Kelly. As you can see there’s sash windows sitting in the skip, in this snap taken a fortnight ago. And has there been a planning application? There has like shite :rolleyes: However on this occasion there was a passing councillor who got enforcement in that afternoon – and apparently Mr Kelly was beginning to gut the place. This has all got to stop.

It is clear that there is a real planning crisis on Mountjoy Square and proper intervention is immediately required

@GrahamH wrote:

ICan you imagine this happening around Merrion Square?! Or the hushed leafy roads of Fitzwilliam Square?! Or how about a gleaming string of buses dumped outside Iveagh House on St. Stephen’s Green?

Or overlooking Trinity College on Nassau Stree… oh hold on.

Seriously though why is this being allowed to happen in this day and age – it’s almost as if environmental thought has completely left Ireland whilst the rest of the world becomes more environmentally (quality of life, built environment as well as ‘green issues’) aware. And the first time we have green’s in government!!! the mind boggles

Good to see the dander rising along the Boardwalk….although I had to bite my knuckles at Hutton`s mention of serious disciplinary measures being levied upon senior DCC people…..:D 😀 :D…..Not in YOUR lifetime kid…..The Mason`s have nothing on this gang…

Over on the old Platform 11 site I opened a thread (Can`t find it now :mad:) in which I advocated removing ALL of the BAC routes from Mountjoy Square and instead running them via several different avenues to a new Interchange Terminus at Drumcondra Railway Station.
My reasoning being that,

1.there is a considerable amount of NEW QBC and Bus Priority Infrastructure recently installed along the Drumcondra/Swords corridor ( Memo : USE IT or LOSE IT )
2 Drumcondra Station is CIE property and could with minimal investment have Staff Canteen/Restroom/Toilet facilities installed.
3.The extra Bus/Rail integration here would bring a very great increase in new Commuting Diagrams currently unavailable.
4.Some of my suggested routing would allow for the opening up of currently ignored major national facilities such as Croke Park and it`s associated GAA Museum and Conference Facilities (Currently,CROKE PARK has NO Public Transport link serving it directly)

When I ran my concept past some BAC middle management I was not exactly overwhelmed with enthusiastic cheers and in very short order I was appraised of many many good reasons for NOT doing it….Availibility of space around Drumcondra Station being the biggie….(Memo : Plenty of on-street space available but currently being utilised fully for Pay and Display Car Parking)

Whilst there are some issues in relation to resedential properties and access they are far from unsurmountable.
However,without enthusiasm,NOTHING is possible,so as with many potentially workable solutions,mine just died the death of a 1000 sniggers…… 🙁

My gut feeling is that An Taisce and the Georgian Societies should not bother their arse attempting to reason with DCC`s intellectual pygmies and instead progress directly to the High Court and request a Judicial Baseball Bat.

Since there`s nobody actually in charge in this Country any longer,the best results can be achieved by simply flailing one`s weapons around and hoping to score a few hits before the “Professionals” manage to regroup….. 🙂

COUNCIL TO REVIEW UNSAFE & UNPLANNED BUS DEPOT ON MOUNTJOY SQUARE TOMORROW:

– “SAVE OUR SQUARE” CONDEMNS PHYSICAL ASSAULT

– SENATOR DAVID NORRIS ENDORSES CAMPAIGN

“Save Our Square Campaign” Press Release 12-11-07

The “Save Our Square” campaign welcomes that tomorrow Dublin City Councillors are convening a special local area committee meeting at which the unsafe and unplanned new bus depot at Mountjoy Square is to be reviewed.

Acting City Architect John Heagney deems Mountjoy to be Georgian “Dublin’s finest square”; it lies within view of the Minister for the Environment’s headquarters at the Custom House, and has a central place in Irish history – with connections to WB Yeats, James Joyce, and Sean O’ Casey.

However with no consultation, or sanction by councilors, Dublin City Council’s Roads Department have redeveloped it as a bus depot with existing provision for 20 – 30 buses, while their manager is talking about “the conversion of further spaces”.

The Save Our Square campaign totally rejects this underhand dangerous redevelopment of a Georgian Square into an on-street garage for interests that don’t give a damn about the hazard that their operation poses to residents, children and other park-users.

We note that the most recent – and forth – side to be converted is ostensibly a bus stop for Dublin Bus; yet the primary users of this space are private coaches – equally no Dublin Bus service runs from the stop; so who benefits – and why?

The effect of this has been to develop a bus depot on a street sandwiched between a children’s playground, a school nursery, and a crèche. It is highly dangerous. If a fatal accident occurs involving a child – who is to be held responsible?

As Senator David Norris has put it, “it is not the place of the council’s roads department to convert the public domain into an on-street garage for private operators – it is absolute madness”. The Save Our Square campaign is grateful for the Senator’s support, who resides nearby and is an aficionado on Georgian architecture.

Yet private coaches are now parking on all four sides of the Square, and so last Friday afternoon in endeavoring to inform the process, a member of the Save Our Square campaign was photographing illegally and dangerously parked coaches. In the course of these duties, the local resident was approached by one of the drivers, and subjected to a physical assault. The matter is now being investigated by the Gardai at Fitzgibbon Street.

The Save Our Square campaign condemns this assault in the strongest possible terms; local residents should not be subject to physical attack by outside interests that are involved in illegalities. Ultimately the context for this has in no small part been created by Dublin City Council’s Roads Department, who are responsible for having given the go-ahead for the unenforceable and highly dangerous Mountjoy Square bus depot.

Ends.

For further information, please contact:
Ruadhán Mac Eoin, Tel: 086 8146077

buses do have an important role to play in dublin…

However why stop at mountjoy????

The liffey/oconnell framework plan should ban buses and the rest…

When will The Department of transport realize there are only so many buses you can put in a quality bus corridor..

When will the city clean decades of damage to dublins buildings…

Any updates on the Mountjoy Sq Issue..has anybody been taken to Mountjoy Jail yet.

I notice the situation has altered somewhat along the Northern Side with some Bus Stops removed and Pay N Display Car Parking reinstated 🙂
(DCC giveth with one hand,yet taketh with the other !)….Mind you one could also bring up the old reliable (If thine hand offends thee,smite it OFF !!).

Its all too apparent that The “Acting” City Architect has little idea of what to do with the place.
Perhaps if Senator Norris and the Save our Square committee were to engage Noel O Gara on a consultancy basis we might see some innovative suggestions brought forward….. 😮

@Alek Smart wrote:

Any updates on the Mountjoy Sq Issue..has anybody been taken to Mountjoy Jail yet.

I notice the situation has altered somewhat along the Northern Side with some Bus Stops removed and Pay N Display Car Parking reinstated 🙂
(DCC giveth with one hand,yet taketh with the other !)….Mind you one could also bring up the old reliable (If thine hand offends thee,smite it OFF !!).

Its all too apparent that The “Acting” City Architect has little idea of what to do with the place.
Perhaps if Senator Norris and the Save our Square committee were to engage Noel O Gara on a consultancy basis we might see some innovative suggestions brought forward….. 😮

No need to spend any money on consultancy fees. I have made the suggestion some years ago, I mean before the dosh was spent on that tunnell, to confine lorries to deliveries in the city area from say 8.0pm to say 7.0am and that would leave the roads free for cars and light vehicles only during the daytime.
Now about Mountjoy Square, one has to face the facts as we find them and that square has wide roads and is adjacent to the city centre. Buses must park somewhere and coaches coming from the northside have a convenient place there to park and let their passengers out within a short walk of the city centre.
Thats the nub of it. Proximity to the centre and if they drive past the square they are stuck in traffic.
I have to agree with the council on this one because the square is not on a main route and is handy for access.
The comments here are similar to Dartmouth Square stuff. Its ok but not near me.
You must waken up to the facts that you live in a city and you cant expect everyone else to keep away from you.
The city is changing. Traffic is growing. The reason the cock up is there anyway is because of the Planning laws. The land owner can do nothing with his own land without all the neighbours having their say first. By the time he gets a final agreement he is so pissed off that nothing is done.
Mountjoy Square was planned and laid out by a Georgian developer and land owner Mr Luke Gardner.
Thats why it is so well planned out. He made the best use possible of his land and he only had to consult with other landowners to join up other developments.
Dublin is screwed up and grinding to a halt because the tail is wagging the dog. The planning laws have just put a paralysis on all development and thats why the city is doomed.

who let him in?

Does anyone here actually live on either Dartmouth Square or Mountjoy? I don’t. Does that mean I’m not a NIMBY? Noel, explain why this cock up is due to the planning laws please? I predict you won’t be able to, but give it a bash. And try not to write a thesis in response – maybe post up your election manifesto for the shits and giggles. And if the city is doomed, leave it to us then, and carry on with your other “business interests” beyond the pale.

By the way the truck ban is not “to leave the streets free for cars and light vehicles”. – nothing of the sort. It was done to improve the environment and make the streets safer for pedestrians, and especially cyclists. But I wouldn’t expect any logic from a man who can’t diferentiate between Set-Piece Georgian Architecture and Car Parks.

@alonso wrote:

Does anyone here actually live on either Dartmouth Square or Mountjoy? I don’t. Does that mean I’m not a NIMBY? Noel, explain why this cock up is due to the planning laws please? I predict you won’t be able to, but give it a bash. And try not to write a thesis in response – maybe post up your election manifesto for the shits and giggles. And if the city is doomed, leave it to us then, and carry on with your other “business interests” beyond the pale.

I didnt say parking buses and coaches around Mountjoy Square was a cock up. I said that it was reasonable under the circumstances ie proximity to centre, wide roads there and easy access from the North and West.
They have got to park somewhere.

The cock up is the whole city traffic problem. Planning laws control all land owners and developers so we get crazy situations like the Burlington hotel and the Jury/Berkeley Court fiasco.
The Doyles would have been crazy not to sell out for those inflated prices if they had decided to hold on.
I am sure that they were reluctant to sell their fathers pride and joy at any price but the planning laws which gave a nod to Mr Dunne indicated to him that he could get permission for a multistorey on those sites.
They were three great amenities for the city and indeed for the whole country and they were earmarked to be demolished. Why was that?
Surely this was not market forces?
Doyles could go to European capitals and buy twenty luxury hotels for the money they got for those three hotels which had a bottom line of one or two million annually after a lot of hard work.
Its a measure of the madness of our planning laws., a striking example of how the market is distorted by them.
Now we have a ciry full of blocks of flats astride narrow streets with limited parking and a high proportion of them empty and even if they were let the rents would not be able to service the mortgage.
That is more market distortion and it could well presage a long period of depression.
Remember that pre 1964 a land owner could build what he deeded to be economic on his land. We had a real market but the present market is a lottery. Thats why it has collapsed.
I hope I havent bored you too much but there is a real world out there.

No need for the patronising last line. Most people on this site are professionals involved in the “real world” development process on a daily basis, whereas you stick your uninformed head over the parapet when you feel there’s a quick buck in it for you.

Buses have places to park. They’re called depots. If they need more space they should develop a coherent strategy that doesn’t involve littering set piece architecture. I have no idea what the financial concerns and viability of hotels has to do with planning laws. Noel do you still not realise that without planning controls, in a free for all which you advocate, every site would be developed to the maximum extent possible, making traffic even more unbearable? Have you still not copped on to that?

I still don’t know what purpose Jurys and Burlington hotels serve the wider city other than normal hotel uses that can be replicated and replaced either on site or elesewhere. Most of your post is an irrelevant red herring that fails to addresss the substantive issue. If you cannot see the merits of redeveloping these sites well there’s no point engaging you, Jurys and the Burlo are ugly scars on prominent central sites that are worth countless millions – market forces.

as for pre 1964! Ah yeh the glory days. So you wouldn’t object to an incinerator 20 yards from your front door? I’ve asked you these questions in the past and you’ve failed to answer them, choosing to rant incessantly about human rights and how they somehow relate to car parks.

Gosh…talk about “Light the blue touch-paper and retire” !!! 🙂

As a time served non-professional ne`er do well and mere lay observer of Dublin`s …..emmmm…hmmm…Development I have to confess to seeing just a wee bit of actualitè in Noel O G`s posts.

N o`g`s points re the location of MJS are plain truth and that is exactly why they are attractive to the commuter coach and stage carriage bus service.

There is quite a difference bewteen a Bus/Coach DEPOT and a Bus/Coach STATION.
All of the current Bus Atha Cliath/Bus Eireann facilities are DEPOTS which in may minds are simply places where Buses sleep when not required by the commuting masses.

The reality of operating a fleet of over 1000 large capacity passenger carrying vehicles dictate a somewhat different role for the DEPOT.
Each DEPOT is the location for the day to day maintainance and servicing of this fleet.
The DEPOT must have the Bus Wash and Vacuum facilities in addition to the Pits and Ramps required for Inspection and Repairs to a VERY intensively operated fleet.
The Depots are also administrative centres for the several hundred drivers attatched to each in addition to the Maintainance Staff complement.

As it currently stands None of the Bus Atha Cliath DEPOTS could safely operate as STATIONS due to the space constraints and the presence of civilians wandering abroad.

The one exception to this is Bus Atha Cliath`s Newest DEPOT at Harristown which had a designed-in Terminating area on its perimeter,but of course Harristowns location adjacent to the M50 was supposed to be its greatest asset which in reality has turned into something of a Millstone as any Bus attempting to use the M50 to access the Depot runs the risk of being Lost-In-Space for extraordinary periods of time.

Busaras,the jewel in Bus Eireann`s crown is a very efficient example of what COULD have been IF some form of Planning aforethought had been applied.

BusAras has been operating at well beyond its limits for at least a decade now,something which successive sets of management have explained ad-nauesum to their Departmental Handlers.

Sadly whenever Public Transport Professionals,either Private or Public Sector, attempt to reason with Public Administration Professionals the latter group`s eyes glaze over and they gaze stonily into the middle distance before making their excuses and leaving by a side exit.

The lost opportunity which was the CIE Temple Bar/Bachelors Walk Transport House Trans-Liffey Bus STATION still hangs above all that has gone on since CJH decided to “get Involved” with the development of the Temple Bar Properties Cultural Quarter scheme.

To my lazy porridge eaters eye I can see no reason why we could not have had the best of BOTH worlds along the Liffey with our Cultural Quarter needs creatively merged with our Commuting requirements also :rolleyes:

However,back then we tended to think of such projects in single track terms,something which has not altogether been erased from our national phsyche !! 😮 😀 😮

@alonso wrote:

I have no idea what the financial concerns and viability of hotels has to do with planning laws. Noel do you still not realise that without planning controls, in a free for all which you advocate, every site would be developed to the maximum extent possible, making traffic even more unbearable? Have you still not copped on to that?

I still don’t know what purpose Jurys and Burlington hotels serve the wider city other than normal hotel uses that can be replicated and replaced either on site or elesewhere. Most of your post is an irrelevant red herring that fails to addresss the substantive issue. If you cannot see the merits of redeveloping these sites well there’s no point engaging you, Jurys and the Burlo are ugly scars on prominent central sites that are worth countless millions – market forces.

as for pre 1964! Ah yeh the glory days. So you wouldn’t object to an incinerator 20 yards from your front door? I’ve asked you these questions in the past and you’ve failed to answer them, choosing to rant incessantly about human rights and how they somehow relate to car parks.

As you say you are a professional but you are not a businessman who has to grapple with the problem of what to use your land for to get the best possible financial return.
Now having said that I do realise that some land owners donate their land to charitable purposes and give their premises rent free to war on want volunteers. That is the free world we live in.
Bear in mind that Dublin was developed pre 1963 by land owners and developers. If a developer was considering anything he always thought about access and convenience. Thats why corner sites were most valuable and some business streets developed as such. He had to give a lot of consideration to these matters because if he built for example an office in the markets area nobody would rent it off him because of the difficulty of getting in there.
All the cities, towns and villages of Ireland were developed by land owners or developers who bought plots of land that they could see value in.
When the County Councils were formed to supply water and sewage pipes and roadways that was their only function. They never even performed those functions efficiently but since they were given the planning controls of all the land of Ireland in 1964 they have stifled all enterprising developers except the bribe givers and caused a brain drain of our talent to far off lands.
We have inherited this mess that we call Dublin today.
If the planning laws were not in place Jury’s etc would still be a top class hotel and amenity and development would be market driven over a wide area that has easy access and not those zoned to be used and abused by the planners and Liam Lawlors of this world.
You dont seem to realize that Jury’s would not sell for more than its hotel value if developers could buy land outside zoned areas knowing that they could develop it.
Zoning was introduced to limit people and force them into small areas. That meant bribes to get permissions.
No zoning no bribery and no corruption.:)

Zoning was introduced to stop polluting uses locating beside residential districts Noel. Jurys is still a top class hotel and Dunne will build a better one on this site. And if Planning stifled all development can you explain Ireland since 1997 please? And finally what exactly pre1964 would you hold up as an example of great development in Dublin? And also please demonstrate how planning has since prevented such development?

@alonso wrote:

Zoning was introduced to stop polluting uses locating beside residential districts Noel. Jurys is still a top class hotel and Dunne will build a better one on this site. And if Planning stifled all development can you explain Ireland since 1997 please? And finally what exactly pre1964 would you hold up as an example of great development in Dublin? And also please demonstrate how planning has since prevented such development?

Soning was introduced to give the politicians control over all land usage. Ever since they brought those unconstitutional laws into the statute books the politicians have been up to their eyeballs in controlling all developments for their price or bribe. No bribe no permission. Simple as that.

Now to answer your question about the pre 64 stuff can you tell me why everyone wants to buy a pre 63 house?
Because if it has been converted pre 63 then you have no need for planning to turn it into flats.
You might consider for a moment why all the set pieces and Victorian and Georgian buildings are so precious and why so many want to preserve them?
The buildings they put up since 1964 are hardly worth preserving because they were planned by dummies in DCC.
Castle, Gandon and other famous architects would never have even got off the blocks if they had to get their ideas past those dummies.
Look around you and even the window sashes are being preserved now while most new houses have plastic.
Old is beautiful because it was designed by thoughtful owners and developers who engaged the best architects.
A James Gandon coming of age today would be packing his bags with frustration and heading for Dubai.

the pre 64 stuff – can you tell me why everyone wants to buy a pre 63 house?

No they don’t, just voracious landlords looking for a cheap buck. Lower Rathmines Road et al being the holy grail of urban living I’m quite sure…

You might consider for a moment why all the set pieces and Victorian and Georgian buildings are so precious and why so many want to preserve them?
The buildings they put up since 1964 are hardly worth preserving because they were planned by dummies in DCC.

No, largely because modern economising system-built methods with no controls made them so. What was down to planning was the result of the system being in its infancy. Thankfully things have moved on.
Ironically the very examples you cite of set-piece classical design are precisely those developments that were planned at a time when there was no planning. Hardly gives credence to your anti-planning argument now does it?

Castle, Gandon and other famous architects would never have even got off the blocks if they had to get their ideas past those dummies.

They were the Fosters and Calatravas of their day and no doubt would have been given ample opportunity to spread their wings by the planning system (if somewhat delayed).
It is also constantly bandied about that former architects would never have been able to build or extend their prized buildings in the city centre if around today, forgetting that College Green and the quays were their Docklands. There rarely were amenities to protect, vistas to account for, or third parties to consider.

Look around you and even the window sashes are being preserved now while most new houses have plastic.

The very fault of developer-led development and not planning-led development. Give local authorities and planning departments the resources to enforce higher standards, not take them away as you propose. Ironically the best preserved unified sash scheme in the entire city is one Dartmouth Square. Actually, now that you mention it – fully agreed – I can only imagine what post-1964 rubbish proposed by ‘dummies’ would be allowed through on that green space.

Old is beautiful because it was designed by thoughtful owners and developers who engaged the best architects.

Largely correct on the former point, rarely on the latter. However unlike most large-scale developers today, their colleagues of former times were the only people then practising good planning principles, albeit for the middle classes and aristocracy, the fruits of what we can see today. Other examples catering for the other end of the spectrum would be the Iveagh Buildings. Significantly, much of what wasn’t coherently or at least workably planned simply disappeared – old is far from superior.

A James Gandon coming of age today would be packing his bags with frustration and heading for Dubai.

Well he would have to, given his house was shortly to be engulfed by slums, and indeed later demolished in slum clearances generated by the very absence of proper planning that so gets up your nose. Perhaps you could have offered him a reduced ground rent on one of your own properties as a form of good will consolation.