mount jerome

i know that u can’t touch a graveyard, development wise, for 600 years… don’t know about headstones…maybe if they just moved them to the side. i have seen that before…don’t know about removed though

Fin, they did that in Wolfetone Park.

they removed headstones phil?

Some of them were left imbedded into the ground (I am not sure what that stylye is called. It is where the headstone is on the ground as opposed to standing vertically.) It looks like most of them were moved to the south end of the park and piled up against the wall. Of course it could have been that some of the headstones had been piled like this before the park was converted, but it is hard to tell.

I was there only yesterday, it’s a great shame so many of the stones are illegible as they’re stacked against each other, so all those in the middle and at the back are completely hidden.
And the ones in the ground are facing the wall rather than the park.

If this happens with Mount Jerome it would be a great shame.
But surely the headstones on the plots are private property, and presumably many of the larger monuments are protected?

yea. i can understand that . i have seen that done before. it just is that the space is needed for more dead. it’s a shame they are not preserved but it’s church property and of course their may have to be permission from the families. which just thinking there may bring up a point. are they family plots? cos if they are then the family have removed them to replace with their own stones…
and yea graham i would presume that they would protect the larger tombs/crypts.
it would be nice to preserve the headstones but that costs money and who is going to pay for it!

Originally posted by Graham Hickey
I was there only yesterday, it’s a great shame so many of the stones are illegible as they’re stacked against each other, so all those in the middle and at the back are completely hidden.
And the ones in the ground are facing the wall rather than the park.

Graham, or anyone else for that matter, do you know if those headstones were stacked up there during the conversion of the park into its present format, or were they arranged like that some time before that?

Thanks

Phil

I heard somewhere that a graveyard can use existing plots for new burials after a period of time. I don’t know much about land law but I think the plot needs to be bought outright to avoid this.

Can i just say that this has been a happing a lot since mount jerome has been taken over by the new management its there way of making money and teh introduction of the Crematoriumn and the caskets for burial

at the end of the day it might sound bad but its a money venture now i am afraid and yes i am totally against it 🙁

It does seem like the ultimate invasion of privacy, I do feel that the management company should have looked at other means of increasing revenue such as increasing management charges on the common areas.

@Thomond Park wrote:

It does seem like the ultimate invasion of privacy, I do feel that the management company should have looked at other means of increasing revenue such as increasing management charges on the common areas.

That could put older people under pressure financially, the question I would ask is this; can the management company justify this?

To be honest i would be totally annoyed if someone was to use my grave full stop i own thw land i have the deeds, so i think its a total disgrace for anyone to do this , secondly the state that some of the graves up in Mount Jerome are left in is an absolute disgrace, i can understand that some people die and there is no one to look after them etc

So if the managaement were to charge a nominal fee for this provision at the request of the owners etc it might not be a bad idea
😎

What does it involve – the digging up of remains or the placement of the caskets closer to the surface?

Either way it’s a horrible practice. If our methods for burial into the future and the law need to be changed on account of the unsustainable practices currently used, then so be it, but do not interfere with what’s already taken place.

Ok Folks Let Us Bring This Matter Up With The Joe Duffy Show Or The Gerry Ryan Show ???

Going Of The Subject All Togehtehr Are Diplomatic Cars Exempt From Prosecution ??

Headstones lying flat on the ground are called slab graves (or slab stones) as far as I know- don’t know if this applies to headstones that were formerly upright and have been laid flat. There are also a couple of them behind Dublin Civic Offices, at the top of the hill above the amphitheatre- almost completely illegible now.
The ones in Wolfetone Park were moved to the edge prior to the redesign (ahem) of the park. What concerns me now is their future, in light of the planning application for the redevelopment of the site adjacent to, i.e directly south of, the park, with which the park shares a boundary.

@ctesiphon wrote:

Headstones lying flat on the ground are called slab graves (or slab stones) as far as I know- don’t know if this applies to headstones that were formerly upright and have been laid flat. There are also a couple of them behind Dublin Civic Offices, at the top of the hill above the amphitheatre- almost completely illegible now.
The ones in Wolfetone Park were moved to the edge prior to the redesign (ahem) of the park. What concerns me now is their future, in light of the planning application for the redevelopment of the site adjacent to, i.e directly south of, the park, with which the park shares a boundary.

Are they redeveloping the FAS building? If so – good, it’s awful particularly when viewed from the park with its barbed wire on the rere wall.

What’s going in its place?

And anyone know what’s happening to St. Mary’s Church conversion to a boozer which must be into its 4th year at this stage…

I thought the St Mary’s Church was nearly completed! Has it been delayed recently?

ctesiphon, that is a good point you make regarding the fate of the headstones at the south end of the Square. Do you have any idea as to what form this new development is going to take?

I was in the square a couple of weeks back with a classmate (Planners) and we noticed a site notice on the adjacent building (I presume that’s the FAS building?). If memory serves, it was for apartments with, presumably, some sort of retail outlet on the ground floor, though I could be mistaken. I do remember thinking that it would be taller than the existing building (currently 3 storeys?).
St Mary’s Church seemed to be almost there (I know, I know…), with the hoardings gradually being removed. It was my first time seeing the glazed addition to the north-east corner, not unlike IM Pei’s Deutsches Historiches Museum glazed cone ramp thingy.
I agree that the FAS site redevelopment is welcome, but I must say I quite like that southern end of the park with the blank wall, the trees, the sandy floor, the table-tennis table- it makes a change from the bleak, hard-edged body of the rest of the park. (Not a fan, in case you couldn’t tell.)

I dislike that park redevelopment. I knew I would as soon as I heard a description of a plan for a “plaza-like” development (what is it with planners’ current fixation with the word “plaza”?) containing “interesting street furniture” based on the theme of “opening the space to the public”. Ya, it’s grand and open now but I personally don’t get the urge to “enter” a glorified area of pavement. If they actually maintained it as a park when it was there, it could have been lovely; instead it was one of the most under developed parks in the city center. It must have represented one of the last public green areas in the north inner city. I guess a big factor for the council was cost although they presented it as an improvement to the urban environment; the “plaza” is probably much cheaper to maintain than a garden-like park.

It should be remembered that there are still graves under Wolfe Tone “Square”.

Really? How many do you know shadow?

I was sitting there only yesterday – it’s terribly open and windswept. ‘The Beach’ is the perfect nickname 🙂

Ever note how everyone always gravitates towards the seating under the tree on the right? Planners take note.

To get back to the original issue though, my understanding is that there is a real fear in old cemetries that ancient headstones will topple over and kill people, especially children. There’s been a few cases of this in other countries, and you can imagine the compensation payment/insurance nightmare that arises. So any cemetery manager is duty bound to do something about dangerous headstones that are liable to topple over.

However, I’ve also heard there’s some legal situation, whereby if a cemetery manager repairs one headstone, he is suddenly liable for every single one in the whole graveyard. So what they do is, take the dangerous headstone down, and if no-one comes to claim it in a reasonable time (and these are generally very old, so no one does) then they cart if off.

Without playing the part of Paul Bearer here, I don’t really think that cemetries are exactly money spinning operations. think about it – you sell a plot of land for a few hundred euro, and that’s it gone forever. not like other products where you sell the same thing back to people over and over again. (Unless you lot believe in reincarnation!) :rolleyes:

Rocque’s map, 1756

I’m not religious but I think it’s fair to say that what was done to that graveyard and park was sacrilege and a piece of official cultural vandalism, not to mention the loss of a green space in the city, which are so thin on the ground….And it was part and parcel of St. Mary’s Church.

It wasn’t working, but it was a fine park – it just needed some larger openings in the railings – maybe one at each end of the Jervis Street side. The rounded coping stones on the railing plinth wall were quite beautiful.
At the time, An Taisce were outraged at what was done.

The plight of the church itself in the last 2 decades is another Dublin heritage horror story. From The Heart of Dublin by Peter Pearson:

By the 1980s St. Mary’s, like so many other city-centre Church of Ireland churches, had almost no parishioners and was forced to close. The Representative Church Body, responsible for such church property, decided to sell it in 1987. In a blatantly commercial move, the church was advertised as a mere site, and the crypt was unceremoniously emptied of all its coffins and artefacts. The crumpled remains of fine lead coffins, many of them dating from the early 18th century and belonging to such noted people as the dukes of Ormonde, were flung on the back of a cart and taken away for scrap. This was the historic church where the playwright Richard Brinsley Sheridan was baptised, along with Wolfe Tone and Sean O’Casey. It was the wedding venue of Benjamin Guinness and Ann Lee…..The church was initially acquired for commercial use as a paints and wallpaper shop..…Following the removal of all the original oak box pews and the loss of the entire carved reredos, it was also used by a voluntary arts group..…the proposal to turn it into a pub has resulted in the raising of the floor level by 3 feet.

What a shame – about the church and the park. That is nothing short of scandalous what happened to the interior and contents of St. Mary’s.

The park looks so pleasant in those pictures, in its own right and compared to what is there now. A feature could have been made of the tombstones – an attraction in themselves. And the trees look so much more architectural and attractive there than in their current environment. More openings in the railings would have worked wonders for the park combined with an overall renewal scheme, if only they were still there today. The green paint worked especially well 🙁

Quiet parkland badly needs to be reintroduced here – the current situation is cold, hard, open and uncomfortable, sited right next to a noisy road, and with people sitting in a line of cars at the lights gwaking at everyone on the benches trying to eat their lunch.

Those railings and rounded wall were really lovely, both aesthetically and in providing a buffer to the traffic and the ‘outside world’.
A green breathing space is needed more than ever now at the top of the hard grey Henry St.

Where were the tombstones then, before the park was scrapped?

From what I recall, the tombstones were at opposite ends of the park; i.e. at the Church end and the other, Strand Road(?) end. So I think many or most would have already been moved before the redevelopment.

While the park looks nice in the photos, if you look closely you can see that it was also pretty neglected; basically the grass was cut and that was it. There may have been some flowers but I never remember seeing any. There were only a couple of poorly maintained benches, one battered rubbish bin and only two small entrances. I used to use the park now and then as it was a good place to allow small children let off a bit of steam after been dragged around shopping. The park was generally empty.

The whole “plaza” concept is flawed for this park. The streets around are very busy both with footfall and with traffic (especially going to and from the Jervis car park). The space would be far better utilised in a traditional “garden oasis” way. Basically they should have just planted some flower beds and shrubbery, updated the benches and bins and improved access; it would have been great.

There’s ‘neglected’, and there’s minimal management/intervention. A simple park with cut grass? Sign me up!
I used to wish I could remember what the park looked like before the redevelopment so I could do a ‘compare and contrast’ in my head, as my memory of it from many years ago was very vague- didn’t spend much time in the north inner city as a kid/teen. Now I’m sorry I found out. So sorry. Though I’m not much given to hyperbole, I must say that it breaks my heart to see those pics.
Can we have the old one back please? Pretty please?

anyone know when the church bar is due to open and what it’s called? they look to be nearing completion with the flag stones going down outside and the hoarding finally being disassembled

ANother example of this kind of hooliganism is the interior of St. Peter’s Church in the North Main Street in Cork City. The prize winning conversion of the church to an exhibition space saw the removal of all the funerary monuments (with the exception of one or two 17 century examples well embedded in the walls) and their stacking in the base of the tower at the back of the church. It was a little too poignant to see the monuments to those slaughtered on the Somme piled like a load of junk into the back of the church. Indeed, nobody seemed to take literally the inscriptions on many of these which declare them to be sacred – and in a civilized society – therefore untoucheable.

@ctesiphon wrote:

I agree that the FAS site redevelopment is welcome

Don’t hold your breath with the FAS building its staying. The owner may have notions about kicking FAS out and building a six story apartment block but luckily FAS signed a luctrative long term lease in the early 1980s. Personnally I would be very sad to see FAS go, a city should be more then apartments, shops and offices. After all with DIT moving out and there appears to be no longterm viability for schools in the city centre that just leaves Trinity as the only educational insituation in the city centre. I blame UCD for this trend. ( Also I refuse to use the insane new title of UCD Dublin 😡 )

The side of the building facing on to the park is awfull but that due the owner stoping FAS from redeveloping it. The other three fronts are in no way offensive in fact its a good and fairly rare example of an old industrail use building, in the city centre.

Can anyone please let me know who to contact in connection with finding a grave in Mount Jerome .I have the family name but had not been to the cemetry in 20 years and could not find the plot which I was lookinf for.

Thanks , Phil