Major Traffic Flow Changes for St Stephen’s Green

This is certainly radical – just wondering can you provide a source? What radio programme was it on?

Where can we see the details?

Normally DCC announce things by public edict – after consultation on draft plans. Can’t see anything on dublincity.ie about this yet.

It is in The Sunday Times

so, traffic coming north on harcourt street will have to turn right across the luas track? or will harcourt street become public transport and access only, running along SG west? What about access to the RCSI multistorey via glover street?

No mention of Harcourt St becoming a public transport only street in the Sunday Times so yes the traffic would turn right over the Luas tracks to get to Dawson st. It will be possible to go straight on, as before, but only as far as the lane beside surgeons.

Traffic on Hume St and Ely Place may be reversed in the future so there would be a right turn from the Green east (which will be one way) on to Merrion row, allowing access to Merrion St & Baggot St without having to go down Dawson St and back up Kildare St.

I think its a great idea because it will make use of the increased road width on the east side of the green and make the whole area around the top of Grafton st more pedestrian friendly.

Thanks for the link, blue.
So SG west will be closed for July and Aug for rebuilding. I guess in this period buses and taxis will have to go anticlockwise along green?
Will vehicles wanting to turn right off the green into Merrion Row be allowed? I guess not – they’ll have to continue round, down Dawson, across Molesworth, up Kildare St and back out past the Shelbourne?
Vehicles coming up Kildare St and heading for Earlsfort Tce will probably have to go out Merrion Row as well and turn right up Ely place and Hume st…
I wonder will traffic be allowed turn right out of Hume St and head down Dawson?
This reform has the potential to make life a lot easier for cyclists around the green if there is a little imagination applied…

So SG west will be closed for July and Aug for rebuilding. I guess in this period buses and taxis will have to go anticlockwise along green?

Yes

Will vehicles wanting to turn right off the green into Merrion Row be allowed? I guess not – they’ll have to continue round, down Dawson, across Molesworth, up Kildare St and back out past the Shelbourne?

Initally no, but if this goes well in the future this will be allowed. They also plan to reverse traffic on Ely place to give easier access to Merrion Sq.

Vehicles coming up Kildare St and heading for Earlsfort Tce will probably have to go out Merrion Row as well and turn right up Ely place and Hume st…

Well the way I see it the traffic on Stephens Green East will be one way so this traffic will have to use Pembroke St and Lesson St to access Earlsfort Tce.

This reform has the potential to make life a lot easier for cyclists around the green if there is a little imagination applied…

Hopefully, the top of Grafton St is a bit of a lottery with lots of predestrians, buses & taxis stopping and two very tight lanes of traffic.

Originally posted by blue

Well the way I see it the traffic on Stephens Green East will be one way so this traffic will have to use Pembroke St and Lesson St to access Earlsfort Tce.

You may be right but they would be more sensible to keep SG East two way – the pressure on the Pembroke St – Leeson St junction will be unbearable if they do as you predict. Surely all the buses from Nassau St which pick up outside the OPW will have to continue to use the Green?

Yeah – agreed. Maybe that is what is planned but it certainly didn’t come across that way in the ST article so we’ll have to wait and see the offical document.

i couldn’t realy make sense of the ST article, what Graham Hickey says makes much more sense, in particular, the ST diagram implied SG east would be one way the other way, but then, how would you get from Nassau Street to Cuffe St?

St Stephen’s Green East will maintain its bus lane running north/south (i.e. from Ely Place onto Earlsfort Terrace). The rest of the traffic on East will be south/north.

To get from Nassau Street to Cuffe Street you go up Kildare Street, turn right at the top onto Merrion Row (still allowed), onto Pemroke Street, Leeson Street, down Stephen’s Green south (now 2-way) and thence to Cuffe.

Official document is available – this was all discussed at a traffic subcommitte meeting on Thursday with three councillors in attendance (D. Heney and C. Burke among them). Also a NewsTalk reporter… who made a hash of reporting this on Friday morning, much to the consternation of DCC.

quote:
Will vehicles wanting to turn right off the green into Merrion Row be allowed? I guess not – they’ll have to continue round, down Dawson, across Molesworth, up Kildare St and back out past the Shelbourne?
EXACTLY RIGHT

quote:
Vehicles coming up Kildare St and heading for Earlsfort Tce will probably have to go out Merrion Row as well and turn right up Ely place and Hume st…
IF THEY TURN RIGHT UP ELY, THEY WILL BE DOUBLING BACK ON THEMSELVES – AT LEAST FOR THE MOMENT. COUNCIL MAY CHANGE DIRECTION ON ELY EVENTUALLY

quote:
is a sudden spur-of-the-moment move by the CC, and they expect it to be completely successful.

G. HICKEY IS RIGHT ON THIS. THERE WAS NO CONSULTATION EITHER, AND THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN. THE CORPO IS USING SLEIGHT OF HAND BY BRINGING THIS IN AS AN “EMERGENCY” MEASURE, WHICH THEY WILL THEN SAY HAS WORKED AND MAKE IT PERMANENT.
Still, in Ireland consultation means argument and delay. Sometimes totalitarianism works best!!!

Cheers sue, where is document? is it online? I couldn’t find it on any of the obvious sites?

I think the whole idea is to make it awkward for those who want to go from Nassau St to Cuffe st to put them off going that way!

Like blue I’d love to read the document – Sue if you have influence can you persuade DCC to post it on thier site?

I predict disaster if the proportion of traffic turning right at the top of Pembroke St to flow West towards the Green is doubled by this innovation.

In addition to the current heavy stream (esp evening rush hour) you will have
(a) the (non bus) flow that currently comes up Kildare St and along SG East
(b) the flow the comes up Merrion St and through Ely place onto the Green.

Impossible to squeeze all of that into one lane at top of Pembroke St in my opinion.

What are all those old dears with their jeeps dropping their kids into Loretto going to do now? I presume triple parking will be impossible now. 😀

Fair play,

Stephens Green West has been a disater since the LUAS went in, they are right to try it, they can always reverse it if it doesn’t work 😉

They’ll have to buy a bus or a taxi sign and I wouldn’t put it past them.

Yes, the Loreto parents will be severely discommoded – the council factored that into their decisions!

The report is entitled Report to the Chairman and Members of the Traffic and Transportation Strategic Policy Committee, produced by the Roads and Traffic Dept. Given that it was presented to the traffic and transportation strategic policy committee, I don’t see why they wouldn’t hand it out.

They used the DTO Saturn model to provide an origin/destination matrix, and traffic count data from 2003 and 2004 to provide the traffic volumes for the Green. This found that the two dominant movements are Cuffe Street to Merrion Row (522 vehicles in the peak hour or 50% of Cuffe Street traffic) and Leeson Street to Dawson Street (855 vehicles in the peak hour or 67% of Leeson Street traffic). The former route is now made extremely difficult; the latter is being kept but going in a different direction along Stephen’s Green East.

I predict disaster if the proportion of traffic turning right at the top of Pembroke St to flow West towards the Green is doubled by this innovation.

QUOTE:
In addition to the current heavy stream (esp evening rush hour) you will have
(a) the (non bus) flow that currently comes up Kildare St and along SG East
(b) the flow the comes up Merrion St and through Ely place onto the Green

YES, BUT THERE WILL BE LESS TRAFFIC ON MERRION ROW DUE TO THE FACT THAT CARS CAN’T GO DIRECTLY ON TO IT FROM CUFFE STREET VIA STEPHEN’S GREEN WEST AND NORTH. AND, AS THE RESEARCH SHOWED, HALF OF ALL CUFFE STREET TRAFFIC IS DOING THAT.

One point I’d love to know: does anyone have a date as to when the Green was last two-way, even in part?

Sue thanks for the additional info.
I’m not sure what the Cuffe St flow has to do with my Pembroke St point however? We are talking entirely different cohorts of traffic.

I take your point that Merrion Row willl be much calmer – do you think there is any chance they would install a contraflow cycle lane as a result?

As a matter of interest where do they think the Cuffe to Merrion Row traffic will mainly go instead? Dame St, North quays or Canal ring? None are all that fluid.

Me broadly in favour but goes off to request report to try and grasp details….

QUOTE:
I’m not sure what the Cuffe St flow has to do with my Pembroke St point however.

Doesn’t Merrion Row traffic go on to Pembroke Street via Lower Baggot Street, or am I mixing up roads?

QUOTE:
As a matter of interest where do they think the Cuffe to Merrion Row traffic will mainly go instead? Dame St, North quays or Canal ring? None are all that fluid.

The report says: “Anyone wanting to get from Harcourt Street or Cuffe Street onto Merrion Row will have to go along Stephens Green South, left onto Stephens Green East, right onto Dawson St, right onto Molesworth St, right onto Kildare St, left onto Stephen’s Green North, and straight onto Merrion Row”.

Would you bother? I think only in an emergency….

I wonder why they don’t reverse traffic flow on Ely place and Hume St from the start? This would cut out out having to do “Dawson St, right onto Molesworth St, right onto Kildare St, left onto Stephen’s Green North, and straight onto Merrion Row”.

Who’s going to use Ely place/Hume St now anyway because you’ll have to turn right at the top and virutally back onto yourself?

You are mixing up roads I’m afraid.
Merrion Street runs past the back of the Dail and government buildings and joins at right angles to Merrion row. Its significance is that Westland Row (i.e. North City) traffic heading for Earlsfort Terace, Ranelagh and Rathgar etc use it intensively – esp at evening rush hour.

On the second point I’m not expressing myslef clearly. Cuffe St traffic is not heading for Merrion Row itself – this is by far the most smooth flowing solution to go South from the South inner City. Say you are in either Temple Bar or on the north quays the smart way to reach e.g. Ballsbridge or Donnybrook is to head for Cuffe St and then its plain sailing around the green and down Baggot St (until now that is). The future options will be to follow the north quays to matt talbot and across or alternatively to take Clanbrasil St and turn left at Harold’s Cross and down the canal which is already wicked.

Very good point about widening the paths on Stephen’s Green north – they are ridiculously narrow. During the height of the tourist season, and at lunchtimes, there’s no option but to step out onto the road…. and keep a grim hold on that takeaway coffee

I’ve read the full document now.
It says
“The City Council is proposing to engage in consultation with various interest groups and with the relevant statutory agencies both in relation to the Traffic Management Plan which it is proposing to implement in order to facilitate the reconstruction of St. Stephen’s Green West and also on the desirability of maintaining the Phase 2 traffic management changes on a permanent basis. “

I wonder when and with whom this consutation will occurr?

I fully agree about the footpath between Grafton and Dawson St. There is great potential to make life easier for both pedestrains and cyclists arising from this plan.
It is notable that the document is largely silent on this potential.

but won’t grafton street to dawson street be pedestrian?

Em – not clear yet – the whole thing may only be temporary while they do the resurfacing.
Secondly its not decided what will happen buses (and I suppose taxis and horses) in the long term even if they do go ahead with phase 2.

I haven’t read the report like Sue and vinnyfitz but the general jist I get is that the project is two phased and in the first phase there will be no access to St Stephens Green west at all while they resurface the road from the Harcourt St junction up to the alley beside Surgeons.

The second phase is to resurface the road from that alley around the corner to near Dawson St. However if the new traffic system that was in operation during phase one worked well then they will make it permanent and abandon the resurfacing planned and instead predestrianize this area. Creating a large public space including the Luas stop, entrance to the green, top of Grafton St and around to Dawson St which would be magnificent.

IMHO what could also happen is that this area may become semi pedestrianized allowing only buses and taxis to use it, which would be a shame.

That’s a very good and accurate summary of it, Blue

What is the implication for Harcourt St? Surely a right turn here accross Luas would cause chaos. Unless it were to become a public transport corridor, but then one would have to route all the existing traffic down Hatch St’s and the same right turn problem would more or less arise at the POD.

One thing is certain Stephens Green will be best avoided if driving a car in the future. Very good points re- the traffic island opp the Shelbourne and the footpaths on the East Side where the problem begins in Lower Baggot St and continues to the St Green SC

The implications for Harcourt Street are that it will be denuded of cars – which is what the council wants. You won’t be able to turn right across the Luas, you will only be able to turn left onto Cuffe Street. Why bother? You can get there better via Camden Street. So Harcourt Street will be the preserve of Luas and buses. (Good!)

So, no one knows when the Green was last two-way, no?

Frankly I consider less cars to be good. Granted it may have some impact for shops in the Grafton Street area but the city would benefit from less traffic on the south and west sides of the green.

While being broadly in favour of the move there are some specific problems to be addressed. Firstly what of the existing car parks both public such as Stephens Green and private such as the Stokes Place complex?

Secondly how will the businesses on Stephens Green and Harcourt St receive deliveries and despatch outgoing materials?

Thirdly why are more measures being introduced when the existing measures such as the no right turn at Georges St are completely ignored?

They are right to attempt what they are doing on Stephens Green but it really requires a lot of planning and consultation prior to implementation. Although I fear it will have all the planning of those roadsigns that dissappeared.

The document presented to the SPC says there will be a consultation process entered into. However, I can’t imagine genuine consultation between now and the “temporary” closure.
Somehow I have a feeling that the Council have had something like this in mind for ages. (Indeed if they did not have a “luas era” plan it would gross negligence.)
And yet, what bothers me is that it is being sprung now at a late stage, as a pseudo temporary, sort of experimental measure.
The bus routing aspects appear to be totally up in the air. The knock on impact on other routes from discouraging vehicles from the green are not discussed. The potential civic space, pedestrian and cyclist gains which might arise are assumed at best and certainly not being planned so that they can be maximised.
All in all it appears to be an exercise in traffic management rather than urban planning.

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
Somehow I have a feeling that the Council have had something like this in mind for ages. (Indeed if they did not have a “luas era” plan it would gross negligence.)

I very much doubt they did, wasn’t the National Infrastructure board John Fitzgeralds idea to combat the lack of consultancy between the various agencies causing chaos on the streets of Dublin. I would say this idea is very new and a last gasp attempt to mitigate the gridlock that has emerged in this area of Dublin since Luas works commenced on street.

Originally posted by Diaspora
….. Firstly what of the existing car parks both public such as Stephens Green and private such as the Stokes Place complex? ….

After resurfacing traffic will be allowed back on to St Stephens Green west as far as Glovers Alley which will allow traffic into the car parks there. As for Stokes Place, it should be unaffected.

So the pedestrian will gain Glovers alley to Dawson St, that will provide a great civic space.

Originally posted by Sue
quote: THE CORPO IS USING SLEIGHT OF HAND BY BRINGING THIS IN AS AN “EMERGENCY” MEASURE, WHICH THEY WILL THEN SAY HAS WORKED AND MAKE IT PERMANENT.

Surely they knew the Luas would cause problems to the traffic around Stephens’ Green, It was first proposed in 93 was it not? Is it an 11 year time lag between action and reaction for the City Council at the moment?

although as a Bus user I quite like the idea of cruising down Harcourt St, one of the worst blackspots in the morning.

I amn’t sure about this Diaspora, I agree absolutely in traffic control and reducing traffic, but I amn’t always sure that complete pedestrianization is the best way of creating civic space. I feel Trafalga square has been diminished by the pedestrianization along the English NG side. In other words, making it bus and taxi only might be better, like I say, I amn’t sure. Of course, making it luas only would be even better.

Originally posted by Diaspora
So the pedestrian will gain Glovers alley to Dawson St, that will provide a great civic space.

Exactly.

I see your point notjim but I think it will work well here however I fear it might become a bus gate, as you suggest, and this would waste a great opportunity to vastly improve this area. Look at the new semi pedestrian O’Connell St, traffic is still rattling along it as if nothing has changed. It’s much improved but still a pretty unfriendly crossing for a pedestrian. I say get rid of the traffic altogether when you have the chance.

Imagine how quiet it would be, imagine strolling aimlessly from Grafton St into the Green with out having to negotiate the traffic. I hope DCC have the balls to follow through with this and face up to Dublin Bus and reclaim this for the weary Dublin pedestrian and cyclists.

…and having had a look at the maps now a few points strike me as very important and under addressed:

1. Traffic stress in neighbouring streets – especially Wexford/Camden and Pembroke/ Lower Leeson;
2. Bus options – will those being evicted from Harcourt St be rerouted down Ealsfort Tce and Dawson or down Camden/Aungier/Georges St – significant implications for traders if the latter;
3. Taxis on Green North – the rank at the top of Grafton St may or may not now become a pedestrian zone but taxis are likely to lobby for the Dawson to Grafton zone to become a Taxi rank and turnaround like on O’Connel St opposite the Gresham;
4. The horse drawn carriages will also press to be allowed stay in the becalmed Dawson to Grafton zone. Can we improve the pedestrain environment here at the same time?
5. The taxi rank/drop off zone between Kildare and Dawson is to be retained but will (a) be on the “driver’s side” of vehicles and (b) still be much more highly congested being the only likely drop off for tour buses, coaches, taxis and private cars unless some of this is moved to Dawson St.
6. There is no clarity yet as to whether buses might seek to drop off on Green East or North in lieu of South and West. They might be better to press on around the Green and simply put new stops nearer the top of Dawson St…. or remove some parking on Green North between Kildare and Dawson to make a new bus stop…

All in all they would be smart to have a public consultation on what they are doing. Sue, have you any idea as to when or how this might happen?

My understanding is there will be no more consultation before the “emergency” measures are introduced. As I said earlier, this was discussed at a traffic sub-committee meeting with three councillors present and they went along with it.

I think the council is genuine in saying that it will listen to what people have to say once the “emergency” measures are operational, but they are pretty confident that most people will say this is a good idea. “We are confident that we will be able to demonstrate that this is a better long-term scenario, with maybe one or two tweaks,” a senior council person said. “We are confident that people will see this is a better use of the road space.”

I think, unless there’s a major outcry, they will try to make these changes stick.

One thing I do find funny, though. This is a major change to traffic in Dublin, yet apart from this site I know of no-one debating what is going on. I get the feeling that the debate won’t kick off in earnest until The Irish Times finally get around to reporting what the council is planning… and until gurus such as Frank McDonald give their learned opinions…

Interesting points vinnyfitz, I think these will be the so-called “tweaks”.

I don’t follow what your point on Harcourt St. Is Harcourt St becoming bus only? Surely not!

Sue, yes the silence on this one is deafening.

Harcourt St is becoming left turn only into Cuffe St making it “anti bus” rather than “bus only”.
Dublin Bus have the choice of rerouting those routes currently coming into Green East from Harcourt St by sending them along Cuffe St and down Aungier St or doing one of two more imaginative things (a) Earlsfort Terrace (Contraflow) and Green West & North and down Dawson as normal or (b) down Camden, Aungier, Georges and right into Dame…

Ahh, see your point now.