Irish Rail proposes Heuston to Connolly tunnel link

Am I missing something or doesn’t the multi zillion pound LUAS link Connelly and Heuston????

Burge Eye it does in about 30 minutes in sardine can conditions,
Luas is aestethtically fantastic; Alstoms latest toy.
Pero the mantra of property is location location location
The mantra of functional transport is capacity capacity capacity
and luas is off the market in that regard.

IE know what they are talking about

IEI are hosting a talk next wednesday on this type of thing…

Irish Rail – Greater Dublin Integrated Rail Plan
Presented by Joe Meagher, Managing Director, Iarnród Eireann

http://www.iei.ie/uploads/Files/events/1499/%7BE3D929FF0F864B90AB86340DAEF94967%7D_LECTURE%20NOTICE%20REV5.PDF

@burge_eye wrote:

Am I missing something or doesn’t the multi zillion pound LUAS link Connelly and Heuston????

It does, but the Interconnector will do so much more. If it was just a case of linking Connolly and Heuston, it wouldn’t be such a big deal, but at the moment there is no spare capacity across the loop line bridge to allow more trains into the city, and the trains at commuting times are packed to capacity.

This will allow the current DART to split in half, so Kildare trains will continue through the tunnel to Drogheda, taking in the northern half of the DART. Other DARTs will use the same tunnel to run from Heuston to the Airport. This will leave the loop line bridge almost totally free for the second DART line which will run between Bray and Maynooth. The two lines will cross each other at Pearse, and with no big gaps for outer commuter or InterCity trains, DARTs will run at regular intervals all day, making changes between lines quick and easy.

Hey platform 11 folks! Instead of my direct train from Drogheda to Sidney Parade (it runs on to Bray) I change at Pearse? is that the plan or will through trains still happen?

@burge_eye wrote:

Am I missing something or doesn’t the multi zillion pound LUAS link Connelly and Heuston????

The LUAS is great if you want to start your journey somewhere along the line, and finish somewhere else along the line. The Interconnector will also benefit intercity trains.

I don’t know if IE have plans to do this, but it would be great if we could have (for example) Cork-Dublin-Belfast trains, or Waterford-Dublin-Sligo trains, so that national connections could be made without getting out at Heuston or Connolly and trecking across the city (wasting AT LEAST an hour in the process).

This will aid regional development even though it is a Dublin project, by allowing people in (say) Portlaoise access other parts of the country (like Dundalk) almost as easily as if they were based in Dublin and with greater time-certainty than before.

@Rory W wrote:

Hey platform 11 folks! Instead of my direct train from Drogheda to Sidney Parade (it runs on to Bray) I change at Pearse? is that the plan or will through trains still happen?

That’s right, you’ll change at Pearse. Drogheda trains will all be through trains, but they’ll be going to Kildare rather than Bray.

A minor inconvenience, I agree. However, in exchange you will get a train every ten minutes from Drogheda, and a maximum wait for a train at Pearse of seven minutes. I think this is well worth the slight inconvenience of losing a few direct trains.

Services like Cork-Dublin-Belfast seem likely to go ahead in the future, as there is EU funding available for such a service. Although the Interconnector tunnel will only be suitable for electric trains, the Phoenix Park tunnel would be ideal for such a service. At the moment it isn’t possible because there isn’t room in Connolly (anything that crosses the DART line takes up a slot and another service would have to be dropped). However, because the northern line DART trains will turn off before Connolly and Maynooth trains will probably use the Midland line, there will be no conflicts with trains bound for the bay platforms at Connolly (it’s a bit hard to understand if you don’t know the area, but it does make sense). This would allow a push-pull train to drive into Connolly and reverse back out to continue its journey.

Every 10 mins would be cool – Thanks santa

Just one more thing can we have a service that runs after 8:45pm (from Connolly) on a Saturday night (last train to Drogheda) it’s ruined my social life!!!

@Rory W wrote:

Every 10 mins would be cool – Thanks santa

Just one more thing can we have a service that runs after 8:45pm (from Connolly) on a Saturday night (last train to Drogheda) it’s ruined my social life!!!

A ten minute frequency may be some way off, but Irish Rail’s new timetable starts in mid-December, and you can now get a 23:20 train from Connolly to Drogheda every day of the week including Sunday. A massive improvement on the old timetable!

Of course from January it’ll be back to bus transfers to Portmarnock at weekends, but you can’t have everything.

Cullen is to give the go ahead for the construction of a station at Spencer Dock, aparently tomorrow – according to tonights 9 News on RTE, it looks like he favours the whole ‘interconnector’ plan and is willing to fund, to link luas etc. but not too much info given in the report, will probably be more about it tomorrow …

The development plan for the area sees it as a possible ticket hall, but it will be some way away from the actual surface station. Since Treasury Holdings is designing & building the station, I suppose someone here with contacts could ask them?

Wow – suddenly I’m back in civilisation again with late trains!!! Cheers for that lostcarpark – just one last question – how can I get my hands on the new timetable that you’re quoting from (other than waiting for it to appear at the stations) as it doesn’t seem to be on the irishrail site yet?

Thanks

@Rory W wrote:

Wow – suddenly I’m back in civilisation again with late trains!!! Cheers for that lostcarpark – just one last question – how can I get my hands on the new timetable that you’re quoting from (other than waiting for it to appear at the stations) as it doesn’t seem to be on the irishrail site yet?

I think the timetable comes into affect around 13 Dec, so if you select any date after that on the IE website you should see the new trains. Note that the 23:20 goes from Connolly rather than Pearse. There seems to be a new train from Pearse just before 10pm too.

@mickeydocs wrote:

The Dublin rail commuter solution could be solved if there was some intelligence behind the scheduling of darts and commuter trains.

That will go some way, yes, but IE have projections showing a 4-fold increase in commuter traffic between now and 2016. The Dublin rail plan will provide a fast, regular service on the four main lines into the city, One element of the is upgrading the signaling to allow trains to run closer together.

@lostcarpark wrote:

That will go some way, yes, but IE have projections showing a 4-fold increase in commuter traffic between now and 2016. The Dublin rail plan will provide a fast, regular service on the four main lines into the city, One element of the is upgrading the signaling to allow trains to run closer together.

Here’s some anecdotal evidence of why people will continue to use cars. Earlier this year, three work colleagues of mine all started using commuter rail to get to work. They were encouraged by a company initiative and by tax deductions which are available on monthly and annual tickets. One colleague lasted a month. The other two lasted less than three months. The reason to resume commuting by car was a strange one, in that they were all sick of arriving late for work.

How will you convince more and more people to use the trains, when most of my friends and colleagues become frustrated with Irish Rail in a few months and resume travelling by car?

@mickeydocs wrote:

Here’s some anecdotal evidence of why people will continue to use cars. Earlier this year, three work colleagues of mine all started using commuter rail to get to work. They were encouraged by a company initiative and by tax deductions which are available on monthly and annual tickets. One colleague lasted a month. The other two lasted less than three months. The reason to resume commuting by car was a strange one, in that they were all sick of arriving late for work.

How will you convince more and more people to use the trains, when most of my friends and colleagues become frustrated with Irish Rail in a few months and resume travelling by car?

Of course functional public transport is not just measured by capacity but also by

• frequency,
• reliability,
• speed,
• comfort and
• cost.

Anyone of these factors can be enough to make someone switch back to car use.

In the case of your colleagues, they chose to stop using public transport because of reliability. Yet reliability does not have to improve to 100%: after all car use is not 100% reliable as AA Roadwatch informs us every morning.

@mickeydocs wrote:

Here’s some anecdotal evidence of why people will continue to use cars. Earlier this year, three work colleagues of mine all started using commuter rail to get to work. They were encouraged by a company initiative and by tax deductions which are available on monthly and annual tickets. One colleague lasted a month. The other two lasted less than three months. The reason to resume commuting by car was a strange one, in that they were all sick of arriving late for work.

How will you convince more and more people to use the trains, when most of my friends and colleagues become frustrated with Irish Rail in a few months and resume travelling by car?

This would be solved by the Interconnector. The bottlenecks in the system would be removed. When the DART opened 20 years ago it worked like clockwork. The problems all started when certain slots in the DART timetable were filled with commuter trains to Maynooth and Drogheda and this wrecked the whole “metro” nature of the original DART and turned Connolly into a station were all kinds of trains were trying to jostle for position at peak times.

The Interconnector tunnel/Dublin Rail Plan will create a situation where the DART will not only be extended to Maynooth, but will return to its original high frequency metro status and will also allow 12 car double-decker RER-type EMUs carrying 2,400 passenger PER TRAIN running at 10 min intervals between Drogheda and Kildare while serving everywhere else in between including Spencer Dock, Pearse, Stephen’s Green, High Street, Heuston and also integrating with Luas and all mainline and suburban rail and a new DART line to Dublin Airport along with commuter services on the Navan line into the bargin. The entire network will be essentially a “one-change” system.

If we got that, your friends would leave the cars at home. It’s all costs €700 million less than the price of one single RPA metro line between Stephen’s Green and Dublin Airport integrated with the LUAS and nothing else.

We have to stop this Ad Hoc approach to rail transport in Dublin by tagging on “a bit of a Luas here, and a bit of an oul Metro there, a few QBCs over there and run a new commuter trains to Mulingar – there that’s grand that’ll do so” mentality which is just causing more problems that it solves.

The Interconnector is the Answer. It really, really is.

http://www.extendthedart.com

I think you missed my point. I take the train everyday over my car because I believe that if we are to champion a solution we should use the solution.

Traffic in Dublin/Cork/Limerick/Waterford…etc, etc is a nightmare. We are over-reliant on the car. Enough of the clichés. My point was that if reliability is the reason why people returned to using the cars then we have a very difficult battle on our hands getting the Irish commuter public to use trains.

I do not trust Irish Rail with their existing strategy. The Irish Govt has proven itself wholly incompetent in relation to large scale infrastructure development. The Luas was a very expensive joke. I do not want to see another cent spent by these buffoons. This will be a case of throwing more good money…

1. Why not make these people accountable for the vast sums already spent. Let’s start by using capacity on the commuter trains as part of the ‘metro’ dart solution.
2. Why not insist on improving tax deductions to commuters. I previously lived in Belgium, where I commuted 100Km each morning. My monthly train ticket cost 40 euros and included metro, light rail, bus and commuter rail!!!!!!!!!!
3. Why not put regional development back on the agenda. Why do people living in Drogheda or Kildare have to travel to Dublin. Why does the government not actively promote Drogheda as a good location for fdi?

@Frank Taylor wrote:

Of course functional public transport is not just measured by capacity but also by

• frequency,
• reliability,
• speed,
• comfort and
• cost.

Anyone of these factors can be enough to make someone switch back to car use.

In the case of your colleagues, they chose to stop using public transport because of reliability. Yet reliability does not have to improve to 100%: after all car use is not 100% reliable as AA Roadwatch informs us every morning.

@mickeydocs wrote:

I think you missed my point. I take the train everyday over my car because I believe that if we are to champion a solution we should use the solution.

Very few people base their decision to choose a method of transport on environmental or safety grounds. Nearly everyone is concerned with cost and convenience. I can dig up a UK survey showing this if you really want. This is why carfree day failed spectacularly.

@mickeydocs wrote:

Traffic in Dublin/Cork/Limerick/Waterford…etc, etc is a nightmare. We are over-reliant on the car. Enough of the clichés. My point was that if reliability is the reason why people returned to using the cars then we have a very difficult battle on our hands getting the Irish commuter public to use trains.

Yes, it’s very important for Irish Rail to improve reliability and publish targets and performance and outsource the bits they can’t manage themselves.

The Luas was a very expensive joke. I do not want to see another cent spent by these buffoons. This will be a case of throwing more good money…

Luas cost 31million per km. This was close to the original tendered contract price as distinct from estimates bandied about before the routes were even chosen. By western international standards this was high but not off the scale – Strasbourg and Rouen paid about the same for their light rail systems. During the public consultation and appeals periods land and wage costs increased enormously. It is early days to judge Luas yet but if it meets its passenger targets and costs close to its tender price, it will be hard to call it a failure. Those living along the lines have seen their property values increase by an amount which may well exceed the cost of the project.

1. Why not make these people accountable for the vast sums already spent. Let’s start by using capacity on the commuter trains as part of the ‘metro’ dart solution.

The Irish Rail interconnector plan involves increasing greatly capacity on existing lines

2. Why not insist on improving tax deductions to commuters. I previously lived in Belgium, where I commuted 100Km each morning. My monthly train ticket cost 40 euros and included metro, light rail, bus and commuter rail!!!!!!!!!!

Annual commuter tickets are fully tax deductible. I agree that subsidising fares is a good way of attracting people away from cars.

3. Why not put regional development back on the agenda. Why do people living in Drogheda or Kildare have to travel to Dublin. Why does the government not actively promote Drogheda as a good location for fdi?

The National Spatial Strategy and decentralisation attempt to do this. IDA Ireland is tasked with trying to get FDI away from Dublin:
http://www.idaireland.com/uploads/reports/Annual_report_03/fdi_contribution.html
I expect these initiatives to fail. It would make more sense to develop Cork, Waterford, Galway and Limerick.

The farcical Nature of the train system at the moment is laid bare today with the proposed Ballinasloe-Galway Motorway which aims to reduce travelling times to under two hours – who the hell would bother with a train which takes over three hours at present from Heuston to Galway if this comes about. When all of the proposed railway infrastructure is in place (which I doubt will ever happen) the trains will still be running at 19th century speeds….

@mickeydocs wrote:

I think you missed my point. I take the train everyday over my car because I believe that if we are to champion a solution we should use the solution.

Traffic in Dublin/Cork/Limerick/Waterford…etc, etc is a nightmare. We are over-reliant on the car. Enough of the clichés. My point was that if reliability is the reason why people returned to using the cars then we have a very difficult battle on our hands getting the Irish commuter public to use trains.

I do not trust Irish Rail with their existing strategy. The Irish Govt has proven itself wholly incompetent in relation to large scale infrastructure development. The Luas was a very expensive joke. I do not want to see another cent spent by these buffoons. This will be a case of throwing more good money…

1. Why not make these people accountable for the vast sums already spent. Let’s start by using capacity on the commuter trains as part of the ‘metro’ dart solution.
2. Why not insist on improving tax deductions to commuters. I previously lived in Belgium, where I commuted 100Km each morning. My monthly train ticket cost 40 euros and included metro, light rail, bus and commuter rail!!!!!!!!!!
3. Why not put regional development back on the agenda. Why do people living in Drogheda or Kildare have to travel to Dublin. Why does the government not actively promote Drogheda as a good location for fdi?

In answer – 1 – Commuter Trains, this morning I had the Joy of standing from Drogheda to Pearse, if this aint capacity I don’t know what is!
2 – Agree whole heartedly – I don’t enjoy spending almost 2k per annum for standing
3 – House prices are the reason people live in Drogheda or Kildare, it aint by choice you know! There is no value for money to be found in the City.

Bet I was on the same train as you this morning – only I sat smug in my nice comfy seat 🙂 (actually they aren’t comfy but are a heck of a lot better than standing)
Any capacity increase along this line must be welcomed – there has been significant progress recently in off-peak services but not much in the way of alleviating peak problems. This new Balbriggan service in the evening will help a lot.
Agreed about tax deductions – public transport should be made as attractive as possible to those using private transport.