Irelands Ten Worst Roundabouts

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    • #706778
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Over the past twenty years the Irish interpretation of a well designed road junction appears to have been roundabouts.

      These strategic locations have become magnates for development and can often contain up to eight or nine points of entry/exit

      Seeing as none of us like to spend our lives in traffic I think a list of our ten worst roundabouts should be made.

      1. The Red Cow Roundabout

      2. The Palmerstown/Quarryvale Roundabout

      3. The Raheen Roundabout in Limerick

      4. The Blanchardstown roundabout.

      Any other suggestions or ideas?

    • #740192
      FIN
      Participant

      headford road roundabout, galway.

    • #740193
      notjim
      Participant

      i’ll second that fin, though the problem here was building a retail park along an arterial road, they were mad, everyone said they were mad and they did it anyway and its madness. it was bad enough having quinnsworth on one side, but to build on the other side was firstly unsightly and secondly, stupid. allowing retail on that garage (ashe’s?) beside the quinnsworths was stupid too.

    • #740194
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Any thoughts on the Walkinstown Roundabout or the East Wall Rd/Tolka Quay Rd roundabouts?

    • #740195
      FIN
      Participant

      yep…
      tesc0(quinnsworth as it used to be) with a shopping centre on the roundabout, across the raod a retail park including curry’s stc, and a cinema. and across the roundabout a dunnes…now they have a large housing estate aswell…sheer brilliance of thought and design and all on the main way to get out west….ha,ha..genius.

    • #740196
      garethace
      Participant

      Null

    • #740197
      Anonymous
      Participant

      So in revised order we have

      1. The Red Cow
      2. Palmerstown
      3. Headford Road
      4. Blanchardstown
      5. Raheen
      6. Walkinstown
      7. The Parkway in Limerick
      8. The East Wall Rd/Tolka Quay
      9. Ennis Rd in Limerick

      I am nominating the roundabout at Raglan Rd and Elgin Rd Dublin 4 as Irelands best roundabout

      Any objections????

    • #740198
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      The outskirts of Limerick City seems to be Roundabout Land. There seems to be millions of them!

    • #740199
      Anonymous
      Participant

      It is

      Castletroy,
      Roxboro,
      Both sides of the relief rd bridge

      To name just a few more.

    • #740200
      -Donnacha-
      Participant

      What about the Kinsale Road roundabout in Cork? – the southern version of the Mad Cow roundabout. Similarly I think they might have plans to replace it with flyovers now.

    • #740201
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      The entire town of Portlaoise and the Kinsale Rd Roundabout in Cork City – scariest junction ever.

    • #740202
      FIN
      Participant

      😀

      this is in britain…thought i would just share this seeing as we think we have crap roundabouts…

    • #740203
      FIN
      Participant

      i can’t seem to put these onto the one reply so sorry

    • #740204
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      oh Blain u beat me to it – yeshhh – relieved to hear that Kinsale Rd is so bad they are making it a “proper” interchange with segregated exits and flyovers.

    • #740205
      FIN
      Participant

      and again

    • #740206
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      Fin that is exactly what parts of Portlaoise look like…

    • #740207
      FIN
      Participant

      i know!!! ha,ha..very funny town to drive around….

    • #740208
      Sue
      Participant

      Diaspora, there is a very good roundabout just outside Kilkenny, on the Callan road to be precise, which superbly routes all southern traffic away from the city towards Dublin. Admittely it has a lower traffic flow than other well-known junctions, but…

      The Walkinstown roundabout has to be Ireland’s worst. At rush hour, it is virtually impassable. Gridlock is a regular occurence. One of the problems is that there are three lanes on some of the approach roads into the roundabout – and there are six busy approach roads going into it. The biggest problem is that, unlike the Red Cow, they can’t put lights on it because there are so many approach roads.

      btw, is it true there’s only one roundabout in the whole of America, or is that an urban myth?

    • #740209
      Anonymous
      Participant

      The merit list runs

      1. Callan Rd Kilkenny
      2. Elgin/Raglan Rd

      The dodgy list runs

      1. Red Cow
      2. Kinsale Rd
      3. Palmerstown
      4. The town of Portlaoise
      5. Walkinstown
      6. Headford Rd
      7. Blanchardstown
      8. Raheen
      9. Parkway Limerick
      10. East Wall Rd/Tolka Quay Rd

    • #740210
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      It’s probably true (or at least please let it be true) after spending lots of time there I remember suddenly dropping dead in my tracks upon seeing a “roundabout-esque” junction in Santa Barbra, I had gotten so used to not having roundabouts.
      There could be more but as a general rule they don’t use them – then again you can turn right on a red light there…

    • #740211
      garethace
      Participant

      I still think that 2-lane motorways like the M50 are much worse turkeys, than most roundabouts – because it doesn’t take a lot of money to construct a roudabout. But it costs so much to make a motorway like the M50, and when you consider, it gets more expensive to do, as time goes on… not to add some redundancy for increased traffic is criminal misallocation of time, effort and resources I think.

      My only suggestion, is that politians imagined only well off people would actually need to use that motorway. For all the car fans here, Forbes has a list of the Worst cars of all time The current lucky generation of automotive customers has no real understanding of how truly awful a car can be.
      My favourite,

      The Ford Pinto’s (1971-1980) famous safety flaw, of course, was that it was prone to blowing up if rear-ended.
      Also, Renault Dauphine, (1956-1958) Folks, we’re talking about taking half a minute to do 0-60 mph.
      Or, AMC Pacer, (1975-1980) The Pacer was a dud in terms of quality, execution and particularly styling. Make your own assessment about its bizarre proportions, but don’t miss the one door that’s bigger than the other

      Just another thought, sign posts. The Americans can never figure out what a sign means, when it says STOP NOW. In the states, signs only read STOP. When you think about it, stop now doesn’t make much sense. What else would you do supposedly? Wait for a couple of more seconds, and then stop? 🙂

    • #740212
      garethace
      Participant

      Null

    • #740213
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I agree that two lane motorways have a lot do with a lot of the congestion problems particularly on the M50. I find it typical of this country that the Western Parkway as it was then known was built at two lanes, particularly the Westlink bridge.

      Wasn’t P Flynn the minister for environment behind the scheme?

      As at that time at was abundantly clear that the three lane M25 was a disaster in London and figures were around that proved the futility of trying to build additional lanes vs additional motorways. Refering to the construction of the M40 vs the widening of the M1 on costs grounds.

      But what really baffles me is not that corners were cut but that in subsequent years developments such as Quarryvale were sited literally on top of these important national infrastructure nodes.

      I really think the NRA deserve about as much respect as their american namesakes.

      You heard it hear first

      ‘fresh water muscles’ in Durrow Co Kilkenny, the NRA heard it year ago, but to quote Fr Dougal McGuire ‘The lights are on but nobodies home Ted’

    • #740214
      garethace
      Participant

      History of American Highway building

      Notice how they link it up with good old ‘Eik’. I heard Patrick Scott saying last night in the documentary, that in the 1930s in Ireland during the economic war with Britain, some people were saying, I wish we had a Mussolini here.

      I guess Ireland, in the early parts of the 20th century never had a stage at which, some leader or otherwise charismatic person took matters into their own hands.

      We have had many ‘personalities’ for our leaders, we have a ‘kind of personality now’ for a leader, and he does seem to get into the motorway thing a bit. But how many ringforts do you think good old ‘El Duce’ would stop for? 🙂

    • #740215
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I gaurantee you if Benito arrived on the Late Late he’d charm the pants off ya,
      Telling you how the country was building the highest specification possible and they did. The Italians delivered top spec developments unlike our ‘Western Parkway’

      Flynn was like a jumped up schoolteacher in a really obvious pinstripe suit on the Late Late when last interviewed. I nearly puked, when he started telling us about all the ‘Favours’ he had done us in Brussels.

      He made a lot of enemies over during his time in Europe, the Germans used to love us once.

      I wonder how much P Flynn’s roundabouts did to piss them off as they are such a motor mad people.

    • #740216
      garethace
      Participant

      That anybody would ever romanticize the days when America moved on rails would have stunned the highway boosters of the first half of the 20th century. In those days, highways meant progress, pure and simple. Railroads and streetcars did not. Both had been built with private capital, and the railroads in particular embodied capitalism at its most rapacious. To the Progressives who came to political power at the turn of the century, highways were the Main Street alternative to Wall Street-dominated rail. And for people who lived in rural areas, paved roads weren’t just an alternative; they were an escape from mud-imposed isolation during the rainy months.

      Well if you read that extract above, which related trains to stock exchanges, and highway building to the new progressive people in power – I think that the internet and computing nowadays – is a highway too. One which is driven by consumer demand, and like the early days of the automotive industry, has had more than its fair share of cowboys too. You will notice, that like the automotive industry, the number of players in the computer industry are getting less and less.

      But what was interesting was how, the dotcom bust proves, that unlike the old days, with the railroad building analogy for the internet – you cannot ‘corporatise’ the new highways – automotive or otherwise. Places like America have taken ‘the consumer oriented world’ to an extreme, with loads of motorway, loads of cheap web access, loads of mals,… all to do with consumer spending, and in turn keeping their economy booming.

      In and around America’s big cities, the legacy of the Interstates is more complicated. When talk of an Interstate system first began in the 1930s, urban areas weren’t really part of the equation. The point was to link cities, not repave them. By the 1950s, though, big-city mayors and merchants were becoming alarmed by the car-enabled outflow of people and commerce to the suburbs. The solution, as they saw it, was to make it easier to get into, out of, and around cities by car. Highway planners listened and redrew their Interstate maps to wrap every big city with superhighways, high cost be damned.

      The backlash came remarkably quickly. It’s easy enough to trace in the pages of FORTUNE: Through 1956 the magazine depicted urban superhighways in a positive light. But in 1957 and 1958, as the bulldozers came out in force, a series of articles on “The Exploding Metropolis” called the automobile’s urban role into question, wondering at one point whether the highways needed to get cars downtown might “carve so much space out of the city that little worthwhile will remain.”

      The notion that big highways and big cities don’t mix spread. In 1959, San Franciscans staged the “freeway revolt” that halted the building of the Embarcadero Freeway along the city’s waterfront. In the 1960s, successful anti-freeway protests followed in Washington, D.C., New Orleans, New York, Boston, and other cities.

    • #740217
      garethace
      Participant

      But what really baffles me is not that corners were cut but that in subsequent years developments such as Quarryvale were sited literally on top of these important national infrastructure nodes.

      I think this extract from the article at Fortune, presents us with a picture of Quarryvale etc, you may or may not like.

      Meanwhile, the mass entrance of married women into the workforce in the 1970s and 1980s meant that more Americans had to get to work than ever before. The jobs to which they commuted were increasingly not in old downtowns but in new office centers built next to Interstate exits. And the houses they went home to at the end of the day were in increasingly auto-centric developments located ever farther away from center cities.

      That is definitely what has screwed Ireland up so badily – high house prices, multi-car families all working, driving to school, shopping etc. Shopping centres have also become car-centric entertainment venues at nightime too.

      Had to add this one:

      Then there’s mass transit. Since the 1970s, new subway and streetcar networks have been built in cities across the country—Houston is the latest. But after 50 years of building houses and offices to be convenient for cars, these new systems are of only limited use.

      I guess it goes back to Sim City, and all of these great old AI strategy games! 🙂

    • #740218
      FIN
      Participant

      motor city!

    • #740219
      garethace
      Participant

      But now and for the foreseeable future, most economic activity will happen out along the Interstates. Consider the San Francisco Bay Area during the booming 1990s: Most of the actual “wealth creation” took place south of the city off Interstates 280 and 880 and U.S. 101.

      Basically, places like the Raheen Roundabout, and Red Cow Roundabout – are all about progress, economic improvements, commuting multi-car families and a heck of a lot of industrial based workforce. The are symbolic of those times.

    • #740220
      FIN
      Participant

      indeed. this is the type of society that we are striving to be.

    • #740221
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Citywest is a model of how to develop a cutting edge industrial park. It has multiple exits on therebye dispersing its effect on the existing road network. It also has a flyover so that traffic merges into as opposed to obstructing other traffic in the way that roundabouts do.

      I wouldn’t consider the Red Cow roundabout progress on any level,

      1. Traffic a disaster
      2. Architecturally it is Brooklyn turnpike meets poznan
      3. Sustainability it is quite low density (designers excepted)

      The only thing it has delivered was a quick buck to a few minor developers.

      Ideal development patterns would involve Citywest type industrial parks for industry/logistics.

      Developing offices in centres such as the docklands, Dunlaoire, Tallaght town centre, Galway City, etc

      What doesn’t work is an inadequate road network thats principal junctions are

      A. Roundabouts

      B. Mostly choked by large scale retail developments.

      I am really looking forward to the Gilmartin phase of Mahon Tribunal

    • #740222
      Andrew Duffy
      Participant

      Two quickies:

      US roundabouts – there are plenty, and there are also loads of a horrible device called a traffic circle that appears designed to cause accidents. Check this out:

      http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/fall95/p95a41.htm

      You should check out the terrible interchanges that exist between freeways and surface streets in the US as well. Try the single-point urban interchange (scroll down a bit):

      http://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/spui.html

      … or this take on the most common motorway-motorway interchange in the UK, the three-level stacked roundabout:

      http://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/volleyball.html

      … and there is of course the most common full interchange in the US (and Germany), the cloverleaf – poor capacity, low speeds and weaving traffic all in one. It’s probably better than this though:

      http://www.centerturn.com/

      … and any other interchange design with overtaking-lane exits, of which we are getting a few along the M50.

      Italian autostrade – these are not world-class; they have extremely narrow lanes, no hard shoulders and poor interchanges. When combined with Italian driving, they are amongst the most intimidating roads you’ll ever encounter. In fact, people who have experience of excellent British or American motorways and dismiss ours as pathetic may be surprised by the poor quality of much of Europe’s network.

    • #740223
      FIN
      Participant

      can u imagine the fun of trying to explain how to drive those to pat-joe from the bog? 😀
      traffic lights on roundabouts give them enough trouble….
      well what do u think…roundabouts or fly-overs?

      i am sick or these 2 lane motorways..i think they are stupid but i must admit…the bypassing of towns with just 1 lane…genius…and on the routes of major proposed motorways…. what were they thinking. i can only judge the gal/dub road..even though i have traveled a bit on the dub/cork. the bypass of some little shit town in kildare was just 1 lane and now the loughrea bypass is 1 as well. i thought it was going to be a motorway connecting the major cities…why waste money on these little crap things and just spend it on a proper motorway???? i can’t understand this. oh! and there is going to be about 4/5 roundabouts on the loughres bypass….i don’t know why so many are needed:(

    • #740224
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I could half understand a temporary bypass of Kinnegad but a no-margin bypass of Loughrea sounds like a disaster.

      It ensures that the prefered motorway route is used on what would in reality be a temporary solution.

      I think the 4-5 roundabouts are for planting flowerbeds for your tidytowns entry.

    • #740225
      FIN
      Participant

      not ym town thankfully…but if they do then nobody will see the town…hmmm! not a bad idea!!

    • #740226
      kefu
      Participant

      At least we’ve never done this:

      And most development of the past 50 years isn’t dense enough to support mass transit—even when it is, the failure of newer suburbs to build sidewalks has made it unpleasant or impossible for many Americans to walk short distances to schools, stores, bus stops, and train stations. (This, coupled with the rise of fast-food chains, may be where the Interstate system and the nation’s obesity epidemic intersect.)

    • #740227
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      Originally posted by phil
      The outskirts of Limerick City seems to be Roundabout Land. There seems to be millions of them!

      Try Mullingar. Roundabouts everywhere, they must be Westmeath Co Council’s answer to everything.:(

    • #740228
      FIN
      Participant

      when in doubt stick in a roundabout!

      jeez, i’m a poet … that should have been my calling!!!!!

    • #740229
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Top ten Roundabout towns & Cities:

      1. Portlaoise
      2. Mullingar
      3. Limerick
      4. Killarney
      5. Galway

      Any other suggestions?

    • #740230
      FIN
      Participant

      do the little tits on the road count?

    • #740231
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      Yeah – that’s a Tralee speciality. Most people just drive right over them!

      (urban areas) Does it cost that much more to install lights at a junction that to dig up and redesign for a roundabout?

    • #740232
      FIN
      Participant

      nenagh too. there is two on the main street…stupid little things

    • #740233
      garethace
      Participant

      The only thing it has delivered was a quick buck to a few minor developers.

      Yeah, great statement.

      I am really looking forward to the Gilmartin phase of Mahon Tribunal

      I dunno, I am actually surprised to hear that kind of sentiment expressed here on the board. I mean, if recent global events with earthquakes and relief work are anything to go by, I would say that Ireland is a country which leads the world in terms of providing personnel, money, supplies and logistics for all kinds of relief work globally.

      But, the cost of relief work, after the damage has been done is huge. Now, what about spending a small amount of money making sure that suitable designs are implemented in areas of the world, where developers construct unsuitable urban building, in the path of tornados, earthquakes, flooding, tidal waves, erosion etc.

      I mean, when it comes to spending anything before the disaster happens we as a nation are incredibly complacent. We all seem to love rushing out driving our aid jeeps, with our bachelors degree in medicine or economics solving all the world’s problems/disasters. It is like some massive disaster adventure holiday. A relief from the deary, hum-drum existence of living in Terenure or Clontarf. It is nice to know, we will return to that.

      But telling stories about disaster relief, and our generousity to nations facing turmoil – that all sounds good. No one in Ireland, could be credited with providing engineering services for earthquake prone housing developments in some poor country, and supervising their execution with relevant authorities.

      No, it is much more ‘Bruce Willis’ to run in with vans, and lorries with big crosses painted on them – yelling and making a fuss like an actor for ‘ER’, but ultimately doing very little real to stop the problems. A fitting platform for our ravishing movie star good looks, and huge opinion of ourselves.

      The tribunals in this country are just another lavish and expensive ‘post mortem’ and excursion into ‘La-la’ land for a bunch of ‘concerned middle class anal-retentives’ IMHO.

    • #740234
      FIN
      Participant

      ooch! but quite true i must say about the tribunals. and it doesn’t pay to do the low profile things like engineering supervision. the general public don’t particularly care about that. “sure what are you doing that for, can’t they do that themselves” also local costom’s in building are what’s used in afflicted countries who are too poor to correct it themselves. a hell of a lot of money would be needed to provide what u ask. take recent tragety in iran. a whole city needed and well still needs to be rebuilt. but how much is that going to cost and can a few paddy’s really make a large difference without some governmental aid. and with this aid will come government supervision and experts.
      also that particular place was there for hundreds of years… kinda hard to say to everyone …get out and we bulldoze ur gaff in case an earthquake happens and kills loads of yez. i agree with the princple but application would be hardship in the extreme.

    • #740235
      garethace
      Participant

      All I am saying, is that these tribunals are very like a good old fashioned pub fight, but using degrees and legality instead of fists. But at the end of the day, all we achieve is to beat the suger out of one another, and tell the stories about it later.

    • #740236
      FIN
      Participant

      absolutely. i think they are a waste of my money to be honest. and only 1 person jailed from the whole bloody lot of them.

    • #740237
      garethace
      Participant

      It is not that, it the fact that no one seems to care what they cost, what they are achieving – that is, other than providing RTE and the Irish Times with something to report about. On the other hand, did anyone see the programme made by the BBC about house design last night? The one where all the house was built in a factory in Germany and shipped by road as far as England?

      A ‘Huf’ house?

      I think, if you put some EU funding towards the Germans to help solve some difficulties in poorer countries prone to disasters, you might get more results than a bunch of middle class ‘concerned’ Irish people pissing around in jeeps, looking for war stories to bring back to their old cronies. 🙂 Now, allow me to qualify something here, before I am completely misunderstood. I have heard it said, the Irish and the Mexicans make the best journalists/reporters in the world. That is a very useful function, in the context of disaster prone relief/prevention too.

      I mean, the Asians, in the tech world are notorious for being tight-lipped about tech glitches etc – seen as weak to admit a problem you see. The Texans like Mikey Dell are over-achievers, the Germans are too proud to own up to difficulties etc and would prefer to go down with a sinking ship. But I think the Irish, tell it how it really is, regardless of who/what it might offend. So we are great in some areas – just not in others. The tribunals are probably done to the highest standards of fact-finding and reporting – for all I know.

      But, you cannot solve every problem by using the gift of the gab. But I think there is a real role there alone, for the Irish in trying to sort ot the problems in poorer countries. If we are ever going to benefit from more stability and safety globally, we here in the relatively well to do, parts of western Europe and North America are going to have to learn to change some very deeply routed and fundamental attitudes, which have been lingering around far too long – since the days of missionaries etc, etc, etc.

      It is the same with the refugee problem – all we want to do, is talk and talk and talk about the rascism, and accomodating more refugees etc. But no mention about what is happening in these countries to begin with – or putting our money and effort where our mouth is, and solving that.

    • #740238
      FIN
      Participant

      austrians doing it aswell…. they are into the irish market now. called griffner-haus…collaboration with coillte. that wouldn’t suit some climates and i wouldn’t know about earthquake proof… maybe..

    • #740239
      garethace
      Participant

      The Germans on the BBC program last night were building construction super heros – I think they could cope with lots and lots of big problems.

      I believe a lot of the techniques they use for building these houses, owe much to the tools and techniques used by stage designers to set up and move large props.

      As to the factory end of it, as the reporter said – where are the page 3 pin ups from the Sun newspaper – if BMW were to build houses, that is how they would build them.

      Gotham Gazette (love that name) mentions some of these ideas too:

      City dwellers “listening to President George W. Bush’s 2004 State of the Union Address on primetime last week may have felt overlooked. The president never once uttered the words ‘urban’ or ‘city’ or ‘New York,’ though he did say ‘Bulgaria’ and ‘Bali.’.. Today, there is no real urban policy agenda in Washington… [rather] there is a history of deep anti-urban sentiment in America… Cities continue to be seen as places of poverty, corruption, crime, and immorality. And immigrants, who traditionally first settle in urban areas, have often been viewed with suspicion.”

      A large part of our view of cities in all parts of the world, both rich and poor, has been coloured by the Bush administration I think. We need to get back to a solid urban ajenda and less of a ‘political one’. The NYC competition etc, maybe has been used to keep urban design politicised for longer than it should.

      Today, there is no real urban policy agenda in Washington.

      “There is no leader in the executive branch [for urban issues] and there are no committees in Congress that make it a priority,” said David Rapp, editor of Congressional Quarterly, a publication with 100 reporters covering Congress. “We don’t even have a reporter assigned to cover urban affairs.”

      See my point about Irish people and reporting?

    • #740240
      FIN
      Participant

      Originally posted by garethace
      construction super heros

      ha,ha…captain house defeats the evil brain devoring alien creature with his faithful sidekick apartment boy, episode 1, etc,etc…

      😀

    • #740241
      FIN
      Participant

      sorry i forgot what u said from laughing… and yea..very easy build..kinda like ikea…

    • #740242
      garethace
      Participant

      Damn, I was waiting for a story about angry elves bearing knives and riding huge war-ferrets. Hmmm, maybe I should sleep now.

    • #740243
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I like the idea of timber framed homes as it is a much easier material to work with than stone. Particularly with maintenance down the line, but I think like many other things a stone/concrete house is deeply engrained into the national psyche.

      Re Overseas development aid and Bruce Willis types I agree entirely having experience of Latin America and West Africa. They are like the mandarin classes of the Irish civil service 30 years ago.
      Going around in their USAID or EU badged jeeps either gringos or natives ‘a station above their peers’.

      But back to roundabouts, they are a reflection of the lack of ambition that has plagued our infrastructural development. The german wodr Kreutz actually means something modern and functional it is not a relic of a word.

      To arrange your principal highways out of Dublin (N7&N4) as secondary to a 1/4 completed ring road was just bizarre. There is a very good road junction in England that probably didn’t cost the earth to build and is not overly complicated. It is the turn off from the M6 to North Wales, where the M56 crosses the M6. It merely involves two sperate motorways crossing at 90 degrees and a roundabout to filter merging traffic. I have never seen tailbacks there.

      Tribunals are an expensive process but most of the costs involved are created by those under ‘pressure’ such as Burke and Lawlor and Redmond lying blatantly. That said the PR consultant on Mondays Q&A hit the nail on the head when she said that only hostile witnesses should feature in public sittings. They need reform urgently. But not before we get to the bottom of Quarryvale I hope.

    • #740244
      FIN
      Participant

      huge war ferrets….. elves.. cool! episode 2 perhaps…tune in next time, same construction time, same construction channel.

    • #740245
      garethace
      Participant

      Re Overseas development aid and Bruce Willis types I agree entirely having experience of Latin America and West Africa. They are like the mandarin classes of the Irish civil service 30 years ago.
      Going around in their USAID or EU badged jeeps either gringos or natives ‘a station above their peers’.

      The thing is, I never have been abroad in these situations, but I kind of know what to expect from Irish people in general, in the types of solutions they seem to use to every known kind of problem. I think the Italians and the Irish could get along well – like small Fiat cars – making a tremendous fuss and achieving very little. But then again – that country has given so much too, in terms of art, fashion, cooking, music – the Irish have given the world writers and poets/playwrights.

      There is a good film about a prison camp in Scotland during WWII, where the germans were escaping to man subs, and they brought in some Irish man to sort them out – worth a watch – McKenzie’s way – or something – circa 1970s movie.

    • #740246
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I had quite an adventure in Ecaudor a few years ago with two Italians during a lively national strike. You are completely correct on the Irish Psyche having a deep understanding of dodgy regimes; the Italians do as well.

      Your earlier point on the infantile nature of the race debet here is spot on as well. Sort of like the green party meets Dr Paisley.

      Aid on the ground delivers far better value and Liz O’Donnell did great work woth our foreign aid budget, Kitt appears to have gone further on the controls that are vital in suspect regimes.

      That brings us back to our own suspect practices why do we continue to build roundabouts and second rate road infrastructure. Such as roads that will be obselete in a decade.

    • #740247
      garethace
      Participant

      If we build rubbish, then we can argue about it, blame one another and use the issue as a political football for generations afterwards. To do something right needs mental strengths and great individual reserve – a strong national psyche, is something the Germans etc lean very heavily upon as a nation – they have had to all down through history. It is something we don’t do at all.

      I think an artist you should look at is Joseph Bueys, who was very interested in countries on the edges – places like Greece, Italy, Ireland, Portugal etc. The appear to share some very common characteristics, despite being geographically in totally different places. As opposed to the more inland parts of Europe, which developed in a different way.

    • #740248
      Andrew Duffy
      Participant

      Back on topic 😉 –

      Does it cost that much more to install lights at a junction that to dig up and redesign for a roundabout?

      Roundabouts, or at least the real ones and not those little bumps that are really for traffic calming, cost significantly more than traffic lights, but have about twice the capacity. I know that is hard to believe, but it is the case.

    • #740249
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I agree that in particular places roundabouts are the ideal solution. The example of the Kilkenny ring road or somewhere like Castlebar.

      But for junctions between motorways and very busy dual carriageways they do appear less than optimum in their capacity provision.

      Add this the Irish solution to an international problem one gets the roundabout with traffic lights. Chaos is what results when you combine traffic lights with Roundabouts.

      To make the Country’s main dual carriageways enter roundabouts with traffic lights to cross a ring motorway was not well thought out.

      To run a tram system through an already congested roundabout was even worse.

      To build some of the biggest retail developments beside these already inefficient hybred junctions is even worse again.

    • #740250
      FIN
      Participant

      i could never understand the traffic lights on a roundabout. maybe a big one. the is one where the m50 meets the m? to galway..sorry don’t know it’s number..i think it’s the n4/7 but i think that works quite well..well it did anytime i drove through it.

    • #740251
      Anonymous
      Participant

      It is the N4 at Palmerstown, it works well sometimes but at peak times it along with Blanchardstown and the Red Cow none of them have the capicity to deal with the traffic loads.

      Why they didn’t put the N4 over the roundabout unhindered by roundabouts or traffic lights I’ll never know.

      But they didn’t do Anything right with that road. The next time you head south from that intersection look at the cutting as you go down onto the M50. You will see one of the greatest aggregates discoveries in Irish history, the 500 or so truck loads of ‘discovered stone’ that didn’t show up on the geo-survey held the project up another 6 months.

    • #740252
      FIN
      Participant

      yea..i know that section…the great irish blunders… my mother has said to me ( only once i have to admit as she got reprimanded) that we can’t run a country and we should hand it back to the queen and apoligise for the state that it’s in.

    • #740253
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Thats the last thing we need to import another monarchy would be a disaster. Unless Frank McDonald wants the job!!

      Kick out the existing Queen Harney, Make Osama McDowell King PD and Paisleys buddy Cowen General of the soldiers of destiny.

      They wouldn’t stand for half arse measures like roundabouts, and with McDowell the new roads would be built by our crims at a fraction of the cost of the current cost

    • #740254
      FIN
      Participant

      from the indo today!!!!!!!!

      Costs pile up as court stalls M50 plan again
      Friday January 30th 2004

      TAXPAYERS face an extra bill of €1m-a-month after the M50 motorway project at Carrickmines was halted again following yesterday’s High Court decision.

      The Government is to rush through emergency legislation to complete the project after the court ruled it had acted beyond its powers.

      But for every month the project is now delayed taxpayers will have to pay an extra €1m as builders cannot move onto the site, the National Roads Authority revealed.

      There are 500 workers and contractors waiting to move on to the site and the bulk of the extra costs will go in salaries and huge overheads.

      The court yesterday overturned Environment Minister Martin Cullen’s consent for works involving the destruction or removal of medieval remains at Carrickmines Castle.

      The consent meant that at long last, after years of objections, work could finally get under way at the site.

      But the court overturned government orders of 1996 and 2002 which changed the system allowing work which could destroy national monuments.

      The decision means the Government will now have to draw up new legislation to complete the motorway – or face having an M50 motorway with a hole in the middle at Carrickmines.

      They could bring in emergency legislation relatively quickly but it would be open to renewed challenge. A more detailed set of laws could take up to nine months.

      NRA spokesman Michael Egan said he hoped the Government would press ahead with the necessary legislation needed to finish the South Eastern Motorway.

      Eamon O’Hare, transportation officer with Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Co Council, said he hoped the Government would do whatever was necessary to empower them to get on to the site and complete the project.

      Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Chamber of Commerce last night called for emergency legislation to solve the issue.

      Chamber president Michael Johnson said: “This is a national issue. We must have legislation in place to enable the national strategic infrastructure projects obtain planning permission within a reasonable timeframe.”

      He said the motorway had been the subject of “far too many delays”.

      The Green Party welcomed the decision which party heritage spokesman Ciaran Cuffe said meant that the minister could not “act as judge and jury” for Carrickmines Castle.

      “For the last year and a half we have been calling on Mr Cullen to bend the road and save the castle. His intransigence is causing delays and leading to an increase in costs. A compromise could still save much more of the castle and allow the road to be built.”

    • #740255
      FIN
      Participant

      how about a big roundabout around this bloody castle

    • #740256
      Anonymous
      Participant

      The NRA made a hash of this like they did with the rest of the M50. They were advised at a very early stage to select any or all of the alternative routes.

      The fact that the minister acted outside the provisions of the national monuments acts is just typical of the lack of understanding he has of a complicated brief like minister for environment.

      If he read the law he would have known two years ago to pass the necessary legislation, no doubt he was too worried by the smoking ban to concentrate on his own ministry.

      This is not the last problem the NRA has delivered, the N4 entering Galway is going to be tied up for years. Because it is to be routed through an SAC, and the N8 in Laois because it is going to obliterate a world unique habitat these are next.

      It is time that the NRA and DOE listen and jettison the streamroller approach to European directives on Heritage and habitats.

      Because you and I are paying for it both in terms of delays and higher taxes.

      Unless Cullen and the NRA go expect more latin american development timetables.

    • #740257
      FIN
      Participant

      Originally posted by Diaspora

      obliterate a world unique habitatit .

      of what?

    • #740258
      Anonymous
      Participant

      They are building a bridge over the river Nore at Durrow that will eliminate a unique freshwater mussell. That is unique to one section of this river.

      The NRA were advised two years ago to find a different alignment for the road but buried their heads in the sand.

    • #740259
      FIN
      Participant

      a freshwater mussel!!!!! oh! panic…lets save that…. christ that’s brutal… a poxy mussel is stopping development…. similiar to a snail stopping a housing project in clare…. FUCK SAKE PEOPLE…. some perspective…

    • #740260
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I can’t say that I know anything about mussels myself. But it is important that unique species are protected.

      If there was one route only for this motorway it would be different but in reality there are many possible routings. Such as following the Dublin-Cork rail line which would yield minimum interference with existing farms as the railway is already a barrier. Why create a second one?

      If the NRA push this the EU will intervene just like they did at Kildare and we all know how many years that took.

      Real world decisions involve careful risk management practices, such as calculating the existence of known EU directives and regulations. It would have been prudent to choose a route that didn’t involve EU interventions.

      But the NRA have decided that they are right just like at the Red Cow, where they ignored the LUAS, the original Westlink and all the other series errors they have tried to cut corners on.

      Despite receiving contrary professional advice

    • #740261
      FIN
      Participant

      professioinal advice from whom? and fair enough they should know eu directives.. but for just a poxy mussel then nope i can’t agree with that…life will survive possibly 10 metres away….

    • #740262
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I don’t know who exactly but I would suspect a zoologist.

      Unique species are important, I am sure that many endangered and extinct species could make a great contribution if in greater numbers.

      It is not the road that was objected to, merely one potential routing. They should have followed the precedent set on the Dublin-Dundalk motorway and followed the alignment of the railway.

      Motorways are essential and no chances whatsoever should have been taken on the principal road in the country.

      But we have a very gungho NRA

    • #740263
      FIN
      Participant

      no argument there but i still think that to stop their preferred route with an excuse like a mussel is stupid. and in greater numbers..well we might kill them and eat them… and following rail is a good idea(if it’s straight) as it is a transport corridor anyway… and any mussels would have been killed years ago..

    • #740264
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I agree that if were the only route it would be ridiculous in the extreme.

      But there are other benifits to the rail alignment route such as running a spur motorway from close to Tipp town to Limerick which is only 25 miles and a lot shorter than the 70 miles from Portlaoise to Limerick.

      That is 45 miles at how much per mile? or 6 NRA length by-passes shorter. :confused:

    • #740265
      ECT
      Participant

      is there not more up to date renderings of the hp scheme. surely there is, it seems from an early stage of the competition?.
      I think Liebskind is boring..more of the same!. 😮

    • #740266
      Anonymous
      Participant

      That must be the best cross posting ever.

      What about Liebskind, SOM and HP to join up with Calatrava to design bridges over the M50 at the N3 + N4 + N7?

    • #740267
      garethace
      Participant

      Is this relevant?

      PDF file, right click and select ‘Save target as’.

      http://laedc.info/pdf/Wal-Mart_study.pdf

      The consulting practice of the Los Angeles County Economic Development Corporation (LAEDC) was commissioned by Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. to conduct an even-handed assessment of the potential impact of its Supercenters on Southern California.

    • #740268
      Anonymous
      Participant

      The director of McConnels advertising John….
      was asked by Ford motor to import a US campaign of linking regional sales to the creation of playgrounds in rundown neighbourhoods. He told them it was a complete non-starter that the Irish wouldn’t buy into it.

      I’d love to see Walmart try that line at an ABP oral hearing they’d be laughed right out of the Gresham.

      I think the retail planning guidelines were designed to prevent an extension of the edge-city sprawl that is plaugeing this city.

      It is that sprawled dev pattern with even bars on industrial parks such as west that are rendering key national infrastructure unworkable.

    • #740269
      garethace
      Participant

      Those who hope that suburbia is finally growing up and starting to behave itself often cite this much-quoted line: “Edge cities mean that density is back,” taken from Joel Garreau’s 1991 book Edge City: Life on the New Frontier. Many smart growth proponents who call for higher-density, mixed-use suburbs are especially invested in the idea that maturing edge cities represent a potentially promising future. The reality, however, is that sprawl is back—or, more accurately, that it never went away.

      Good paper on edgeless cities

      Never heard of that book before.

    • #740270
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Quote: “Many smart growth proponents who call for higher-density, mixed-use suburbs are especially invested in the idea that maturing edge cities represent a potentially promising future.”

      I agree Blackrock, Dunlaoire, Tallaght town Centre, Dundrum Village.

      Where the existing services are and where existing populations reside.

      But the unfortunate reality is that most of the development occured outside these ‘maturing edge centres’ i.e. places that had their own radial transport networks and were well connected in terms of public transport provision. Places that offered ideal brownfield sites upon which to go higher density without straining the existing infrastructure.

      My top five examples of developments that proported those theories fraudulently

      1. Parkwest
      2. Liffey Valley
      3. Central Park
      4. Sandyford
      5. The Red Cow

      As I have said before Dallas works because they followed the model to the letter, where does everyone think the Citywest model came from? It’s not sustainable in eco-terms but infrastructurally it has been very well behaved.

    • #740271
      garethace
      Participant

      Where is central park in Dublin?

    • #740272
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Leopardstown it is million + square foot office development on a former religious site. Vodafone amongst others are based out there.

    • #740273
      garethace
      Participant

      So a sister DLR development to Sandyford? Except maybe not as in-line with a Charlemount, Ranelagh, Dundrum, axis to the city centre. Which makes the Sandyford thing, ‘sort of special’. 🙂

      I guess when you get to Leopardstown, you are moving toward the end of Stillorglan dual carriageway and beginning of Bray Road. Which is a different kind of vibe.

      The area, which gives me the creeps is around Nutgrove centre and that in-between part, before Templeouge and slightly west of Sandyford.

    • #740274
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I am not so sure that the Ranelagh-Dundrum-Sandyford axis is anyway special at all. It is like most of Dublin categorised by urban sprawl and chronic traffic problems.

      Planting a few million square feet of offices at the edge of that existing gridlocked sprawl made it worse.

      I agree about the nutgrove/grange rd area being a little eerie as once the gridlock clears between 10am and 4pm there is little but empty houses at 16 to the acre.

      Spatial planning is not helped by building more and more car dependent semi’s at the edge of the motorway. Ballycullen is the perfect example of a development that would never by cleared in Holland.

      Ballycullen exacerbated the problem at the Tallaght M50 ROUNDABOUT for years.

    • #740275
      garethace
      Participant

      I agree about the nutgrove/grange rd area being a little eerie as once the gridlock clears between 10am and 4pm there is little but empty houses at 16 to the acre.

      Yeah, I knew there was something out of place for Dublin city, yet also something freaky, familar about it – since I grew up in small town areas in rural west Limk – and somehow the developers in that area of Dublin must have used ‘small town somewhere in west limerick’ models to develop.

      One answer is to find ways to fold new housing, even new neighborhoods, into existing suburbs

    • #740276
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I think that like building roundabouts over the M50, housebuilders took the easy and cheap method in constructing housing estates.

      It involved minimum design, minimum hassle clearing the planners, (once the brown paper bag had paid for the rezoning) and they could use a fairly low skilled workforce and pay them buttons as most of it was thrown up in a recessionary environement.

      The result is that literally 10,000’s of houses were thrown up in the decade 1985-1995 with minimal capital contributions to pay for roads or social infrastructure.

      The result is a completely car dependent area where schools are quite a distance from homes, jobs cannot be reached easily and shopping involves long delays finding parking/negotiating traffic jams.

      Instead of learning the lessons from the D14 experience it is still being replicated in D15 and D18 and D24 on an unprecedented scale.

      All at locations close to transport nodes, no doubt in the belief that these locations are ‘accessible’. They are accessible but to the cost of the core areas that the roads were designed to serve for intercity transit,
      They are not serving the purpose for which they designed because they are gridlocked with people dropping the kids off to school or buying a pint of milk from the nearest garage.

      Flyovers and a planning freeze close to major insections are urgently required.

      West Limerick compares very well on a number of cars per square meter of paved road basis.

    • #740277
      garethace
      Participant

      If we build praries are we surprised that cowboys will come? 🙂

    • #740278
      Anonymous
      Participant

      The NRA does it again!!!!!!!

      http://www.eircom.net

      “Several major routes planned by the National Roads Authority are being held up by objections, oral hearings and problems with compulsory purchase of land.

      The Save Tara/Skreen Valley Campaign said the leaking of the Government Road Safety Strategy along with “accusations” in today’s media reports was “a cynical exercise by the Government to blame and defame heritage campaigners, and shift responsibility off the shoulders of the authorities”.

      “We are pro-roads. We simply want them built legally, efficiently and properly,” the group said.

      “The Government has proven they are unable to do any of the above, and has caused the delays at Carrickmines and elsewhere by refusing to admit they made a mistake or alter their plans accordingly.

      “The reality of the situation is that it is the Government that is causing delays, and possibly costing lives. Their unconstitutional dismantling of the heritage protections in the National Monuments
      Act, and the closure of Duchas, has exposed the Government agenda to remove protections for heritage and facilitate the National Development Plan.”

      Prominent members of the Tara campaign were also involved in the protests against the construction of the final section of the M50 over the site of the medieval ruins of Carrickmines Castle in Dublin.

      The statement said the M50 was also delayed by Leopardstown Racecourse and by a dispute between Dun Laoghaire County Council and Ascon.

      The Tara group said the Government “must reconsider” its plans for the Hill of Tara or else the process of building the Clonee-Kells bypass of the N3 would face “massive delays” again.

      “There is a huge problem with the N3 traffic situation that needs an immediate and effective solution. The current plans for the M3 motorway are not it.

      “Lives are at stake, and the Government, not the citizens, is ultimately responsible for the legal, intelligent and efficient delivery of infrastructure. No amount of defamatory spin will change that.

      “Other countries have good motorways and strong heritage protections. Why can’t we?”

      The earliest settlement at the Tara site dates from around 2500BC. The site also contains a large number of monuments, over 30 of which are visible.

      The National Roads Authority has defended its plans for the by-pass route, stating that the new road will be twice as far from the Hill of Tara as the existing N3″

      Fr Dougal Maguire

      “The lights are on but nobodys home Ted”

      Roundabouts are only abandoned when it enters a heritage area it appears!!!

    • #740279
      Andrew Duffy
      Participant

      Funnily enough, the M3 design is recent enough that the busy interchanges are properly designed.

      The save Tara campaign has a pretty bad website here:

      http://www.taraskryne.org/

      Find the working links – it’s fun! Not only is the proposed scheme not described, neither are the campaigners’ suggested alternatives, if they have any.

    • #740280
      FIN
      Participant

      well organised opposition. lol. does it disrupt any monuments or is their quite vocal opposition just because it’s near and it’s a few tree huggers saying”not in my back-yard” ?

    • #740281
      Andrew Duffy
      Participant

      The opposition is because the motorway will go through the valley (“destroy it”, of course), avoiding everything. Some protestors are concerned that the legendary five roads from Tara will be disturbed – come on, people! Will we never tunnel or bridge the Straits of Gibraltar for fear of disturbing Atlantis?

      A stretch of the M6 in the lake district in Britain won National Trust awards for enhancing the landscape. A well built road meandering through a beautiful valley can be stunning in itself, but it also opens the beauty of the area up to hundreds of thousands of people who would otherwise never have seen it.

    • #740282
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Quote “A stretch of the M6 in the lake district in Britain won National Trust awards for enhancing the landscape. A well built road meandering through a beautiful valley can be stunning in itself, but it also opens the beauty of the area up to hundreds of thousands of people who would otherwise never have seen it.”

      I know that section of the M6 between Penrith and Gretna Green. The reason it won awards was because it was split into two seperate carriageways therebye dispersing the effects of traffic. There was no less detrimental alternative route through the lake district for the motorway. Which in fairness is the principal connection between the major centres of London and Glasgow with links to Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester. There was also extensive consultation with heritage groups and the National Trust on selecting this route.

      The NRA in contrast are steamrolling this directly through an area with 2500 year old archaeology with no meaningful consultation with heritage groups. This site is possibly Irelands principal early settlement, there are 30 heritage sites on its route.

      Where does this motorway go Cork? Belfast? Galway? Waterford?

      Kells and the department of the marine in Virginia Co Cavan :confused:

    • #740283
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      I think it’s more the principle that concerns them – if they can’t get this through or some bloody stupid fresh water mussel in N8 Durrow then the NIMBY types and auto-objectors will win in every case and set an extemely damaging precedent to our future prosperity. It is a FACT that objections to large scale projects like this are well known and noted abroad and have in the past caused Ireland to lose out on projects from certain multinationals. Talk to anyone who sit at OECD or IDA meetings. It reflects badly on us if we are unable to sacrifice to deliver projects. I’m not saying the NRA have designed well, or avoided where necessary. Nor am I suggesting that we have to demolish every trace of our past. But there is a necessary trade off, and no exceptions – progress does have a price. Also the views of the loudest does not necesarily mean the views of the many. In the case of Durrow – if this fresh water mussel is so precious and world reknowned – why is it not feted from the hills? Personally I would prefer Irelands two main cities to have one less boreen linking them.

    • #740284
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Quote “But there is a necessary trade off, and no exceptions – progress does have a price.”

      That interpretation implies that there is a meaningful discussion. There isn’t any discussion at all, the NRA choose their routes and consult no-one.

      The conservation lobby, advised the NRA to choose a different route on the N8 following the alignment of the Dublin-Cork railway, a route that would have involved a fraction of the severence of lands.

      It furthermore would have offered the opportunity to build a spur motorway from Tipp town to Limerick effectively linking Limerick and Cork by motorway and completing 1/3 of the Limerick-waterford route to motorway strandard. Whilst cutting the length of the Dublin-limerick motorway requirement from 70 miles to 25 miles independent of the common dublin-cork overlap.

      That is progressive thinking, the NRA will over the next 15 years build a series of 5-7 by-passes to get to limerick and sever a 70 mile route.

      The price of progress is softened by consultation. There are always options

    • #740285
      garethace
      Participant

      Try a search on goggle fin:

      Little Britain

      30 minutes from London city centre – but like a different world – an area that just ‘happened’ around some old disused gravel pits. Land which ‘might’ some day become valuable for development – but at the moment, is just the space between factories, shopping centres and transport infrastructure.

      Did anyone see the piece about ‘Little Britain’ and edgedom’s in the BBC last night? The opposite to the ‘planned environments’ in Britain like Milton Keynes.

      I mean, here in Britain and Ireland we don’t have any policy to edgedoms, other than to ‘control them’ just because we like to control things. In Finland especially, i did notice a slightly different attitude to these marginal zones, where it is neither country nor city.

      the point was made too – that building types and fauna can exist in ‘edgedom’ which couldn’t exist in typical rural farming subsidised environments – where the cows are ‘paid’ to chew everything to death.

      Whereas, to take the urban slant, these places mostly get fenced off, or simply become pitch and putt courses – i.e. brought into the city in some kind of acceptable way.

      I guess, that was the approach taken when Bolton Street done some Dublin Docklands projects a few years ago now. Pity no publication or online resource was ever made available from that – i.e. like Fluid Space thing in UCD.

    • #740286
      FIN
      Participant

      i’m not sure what u mean by edgedoms. is it brownfield sites?

    • #740287
      garethace
      Participant

      I took me about six years to figure out basically what is meant by edgedoms, but the BBC feature last night did it some justice. Don’t worry if my description doesn’t do it justice.

      I wouldn’t try to force concepts like this one, on younger heads, as was done to me often in Bolton Street – but some day, you may come up against it again.

      Warning: There is an amazing load of poetic rubbish surrounding this very subject at the moment, so just beware – a lot of it by the architects themselves.

      Which makes it so strange, that the BCC news crew, in a kind of Duncan Stewart broadcasting way, managed to pull the idea together pretty well, in just a five minute feature.

      I think, it would be great if these ‘features’ were downloadable from the web, like those new BMW car ads, which said “people change channels when the ads come on, and there are too many restrictions in what you can ‘broadcast’ in a car TV ad, so why not make a few feature length movies and offer them through the web”.

      They got guys like Guy Ritchie, of Lock, stock and two smoking barrels and other big directors to do good car ads for web distribution.

    • #740288
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I am not entirely sure of what ‘edgedom’ means but I would suspect that it is a relation of edge-city.
      Our great single entrance business parks and single exit housing estates of 200+ semi’s, with an above average nissan micra quotient.

      Edge-city or edgedoms are not the problem, but it is rather the inadequate infrastructure that services them.

      I am interested to see how the apartments at Park West do when completed, a bit like Adamstown meets well park west I suspect.

      At least they are a good distance from our M50 roundabouts so they will only access the Longmile- Naas Rd junction. Don’t you just love roundabouts and dual carriageways with tram systems complete with multiple traffic lights. 😡

    • #740289
      garethace
      Participant

      Edgedoms are quiet, tranquil little ‘Hobbit places’ around global super cities like London for instance. Places where the environmentalists have been attracted by the unique natural habitats, which can no longer be entirely classified as being rural or urban.

      The Dutch are purposely putting sheep grazing into the centre of urban developments now – not because they make any money – they are ‘the most subsidized sheep in Europe’ – but because they reckon that people just ‘need’ to see a sheep or two grazing.

      The edgedoms normally happen, where land not used for rural purposes anymore, and is ‘waiting to be used’ for development purposes just get left their – these places are normally littered with the detriteus of modern urban living – corrigated iron, old fridges, and numerous other examples of human waste mingled in with nature.

      Rather than approaching these environments as ‘bad lands’ per se, as the more ‘control-oriented’ amongst our society would like – some environmentalists argue, that these areas should be treated as a new kind of habitat in themselves.

      THey are very cool places to have walking routes etc, for people in the cities – but not in the strictly organised sense on a closely cropped huge green area with a few planted saplings – a la Capability Brown – but allowed to before a bit natural – cleaned up a little bit – but allowing some rubbish and ram-shackle architecture to co-exist with the nature.

      While some people decree, that these places shouldn’t exist at all – there should be a ‘defined edge’ between what we know as urban and rural.

      I my opinion, it is always inevitable that ‘edgedoms’ will exist as large developers and pension funds buy up these territories from previous agricultural owners on the edges of major urban centres – (the organisations with the ability to anonimously just ‘sit’ on these areas for generations) the question is, what do you do with these disused places in the meantime.

      A lot of the time, these areas change ownership hands many times while planning submissions are made, and grand master plans are suggested over a period of generations – in the meantime they just become eye-sores – but properly managed, could become real resources to the urban fabric.

      There was a site at the top of Broadstone, between western way and the Broadstone park, which sat there totally unused for years and years – with several planning applications etc. MOLA have now been sucessful in getting a student residence planning application through for that site. But I guess, there are still several sites still remaining around Constitution hill – making it a kind of edgedom, with the Grange Gorman site and CIE lands etc, etc, etc.

      It also falls ‘outside’ HARP and O’Connell St and area etc. It is potentially strategic from the point of view of Metro too I think. If you want to drive home a point, much of Parnell Square could be thought of as an edgedom too. It certainly has enough litter. 🙂

      Temple Bar pre-1991, is a typical example of an inner city edgedom I think. Smithfield in its horse trading and car dealership days etc, etc, etc. The Docklands in its container phase. I guess modern Temple Bar is an example of what shouldn’t happen to edgedoms at all.

      The debate is currently raging as to what should happen to downtown Los Angeles – investment could destroy what is already a working, viable area for small businesses to ‘start off’. The saying goes, that the downtown LA’s purpose isn’t to service the middle classes, it is to create them through cheap rental office and minor industrial space.

      Over-doing the ‘art and culture’ treatment will just push up the rents and drive out the best bits of downtown LA at the moment.

      I enjoyed the recent AAI lecture – where in Holland, they leave all activities happen in these ‘edgedoms’ for a 5 year period, and then whatever use is most common in that area after 5 years – it becomes law – that is what the area will become. 🙂

      What is a real problem though, is where things like Hotels in Portmarnock are just bought up, and overnight a place which was a public place for years suddenly becomes a privately owned golf course – that is normally what happens to edgedoms in Britain. The debate is going on, over whether Britain should introduce new legislation to sucessfully manage and cultivate good ‘edgedoms’.

    • #740290
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Quote “‘waiting to be used’ for development purposes just get left their – these places are normally littered with the detriteus of modern urban living – corrigated iron, old fridges, and numerous other examples of human waste mingled in with nature.”

      No that only happens in Ireland and Columbia, it isn’t part of a civilised culture

      Quote “I enjoyed the recent AAI lecture – where in Holland, they leave all activities happen in these ‘edgedoms’ for a 5 year period, and then whatever use is most common in that area after 5 years – it becomes law – that is what the area will become.”

      Sounds like the world according to Michael O’Leary, not saying that is a bad thing, Diaspora broke his investment model last thursday to purchase a small number of aviation shares.

      Sounds like a temporary vs planned environment, it sounds like it would certainly be easier to regulate than the anarchy in place here. I have always had sympathy for the ‘first farms’ beyond vast housing estates as it must be very difficult to manage livestock with wandering kids entering your lands

    • #740291
      garethace
      Participant

      what is important though to realise, and this does take in Fin’s point about ‘experiencing urban environments more’ – is that these ideas about ‘edgedoms’ exist a lot in contemporary urban and architectural literature and thought.

      The only problem is, that until now, they have only existed in the ‘up in the sky’ language of architectural elite super-brains and theory oriented practioners. Translate: The kind of guys who will read Rem Koolhaas books and understand them.

      But this BBC feature I saw last night, was the first time in which I actually felt I could understand some of what the environmentalists, architects and urbanists were talking about.

      The UCD publication called ‘Tracings no.2’ appears to look at the issue a bit too. The Docklands area of Dublin is a perfect place to argue some of these values too.

      I mean, the kind of architecture you will find in an edgedom is typically different from that you might find in urban or rural contexts.

      I.e. Containers converted into shops and such – the place has it’s own unique character, moods and language. A lot like what they said about Temple Bar in the original competition times.

      Many would argue that Smithfield actually ‘lost’ alot of its character with those ‘award-winning’ lamps going up its centre.

      That places like Constitution hill should not be given the art treatment’ so much etc.

    • #740292
      garethace
      Participant
    • #740293
      Anonymous
      Participant

      What DCU was supposed to look like before the cost accountatnts got at it:

      Please enter this first

      http://www.cgarchitect.com/cgi-bin/…000435;go=newer

      And then enter this link

      http://www.cgarchitect.com/forum/filepush.asp?file=hushus_cgarch.jpg

      I agree on the existence of edgedoms I know the docklands very well and agree that the gradual westward expansion of Temple bar would also be a manifestation of the theory.

      However the Smithfield example of two landowners submitting linked but independent (financially) applications offers a solution to edgedom. I am also a supporter of the concept of the DDDA although I am not sure that the practice has been optimum

    • #740294
      garethace
      Participant

      You have to link the thread, remote linking of the actual jpg is prohibited at CG Architect.

      Save bandwidth bills, people using site as online portfolio etc.

    • #740295
      Rory W
      Participant

      Going back to the roads issue – there was an alternative plan to run a road between the N2 (Derry Road) and N3 (Kells etc) that would have a spur off the other side of Kells to link it to the N3 before reconnecting with the N2 the far side of Ardee. Stretches of the N2 and N3 are only 15 miles apart at some stages and this would have carried the road far away from Tara and its Environs.

      Needless to sy the NRA baulked at the idea – why build one road when you can build two.

    • #740296
      Anonymous
      Participant

      A bit like the potential Limerick link from Tipperary.

      Why build one when you can build three

      Limerick-Dublin
      Limerick-Cork
      Limerick-Waterford (33%)

      All coming back to our roundabouts, which at least the following will require new flyovers

      1. Red Cow
      2. Westlink (in addition to a new bridge)
      3. Kinsale Rd junction Cork
      4. Blanchardstown

      We have heard about how great the port tunnel is going to be, but where is all the non port traffic going to go once it reaches East Wall road?

    • #740297
      Anonymous
      Participant

      http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0205/roads.html

      Brennan to expand roads programme

      (12:13) “The Minister for Transport has announced an expansion of the planning programme for national roads.

      Séamus Brennan said investment in 2004 will total €1,223 million, which he said will allow work to start on 17 major new schemes.

      Work will also continue on 17 other schemes, 12 of which are due to be completed this year.

      The minister also announced that significant progress had been made on plans to open up three vital corridors to the north, south and west.

      The M1 to the North is due to be completed in 2006, the other two motorways from Dublin to Cork and Galway are due to be completed at the end of 2007.”

      Is he saying that the sections both from Kildare to Glanmire and from Kilcock to Galway are going to be opened motorways in 35 months time?

      Fin when did the Loughrea bypass open or is it open yet?

    • #740298
      FIN
      Participant

      i don’t think they have even started yet! some public meeting regarding c.p.o.’s… that’s the last i heard about it and that was last week/the week before.

      but finished 2007!! he is having a laugh?

    • #740299
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      Bear in mind the Metro is going to be running in 2008…

    • #740300
      FIN
      Participant

      when’s the next election? apart from l.a. election this year. can he be held to this promise???? ha,ha.

    • #740301
      Anonymous
      Participant

      http://www.onbusiness.ie/2004/0205/roads.html

      “Minister Brennan said recent developments, including agreement on a multi-annual funding arrangement for infrastructure projects and the use of design and build or fixed price contracts, meant major road projects could now be delivered faster and within budget.”

      I notice the Public/Private partnership option has dissapeared, aparently thanks to the reaction the spanish consortium got in the bond markets trying to raise funds on the Enfiled-Kinnegad bypass.

      ‘Multi-annual funding’ wow that is new look at the Luas how many years is that now?

      ‘Design and Build’ what are Arups going into the building game?

      ‘Fixed price contracts’ How did they ever negotiate anything else? (excluding the regular 5%-10% contingency)

      To Quote George Bush ‘regime change’

    • #740302
      FIN
      Participant

      Originally posted by Diaspora

      ‘Fixed price contracts’ How did they ever negotiate anything else? (excluding the regular 5%-10% contingency)

      yea, i never got that…if you give people the scope t rip u off then they will. no bloody wonder everything is over budget and over due if there was no fixed price! :confused:

    • #740303
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Todays Irish Times carries the story that the Kinsale Rd Interchange is to start construction this year. Two years after its original opening

      Plans for a third north-south motorway are well advanced with news that the N2 is also to be upgraded to motorway status

      The M50 is going to require up to €650m to sort out, this figure pre contractor increases.

      While Breannan wishes to shovel another €30m into raising the height of the port tunnel to accomodate 3% of trucks that are banned in 13 of the 15 EU states.

      When Peter Malone of the NRA was asked to produce a comment on the rational behind the Sligo town centre dual carriageway no comment was made although Frank McDonald got a set of shrugged shoulders and a smile.

      It appears our Peter “pushed aside all criticism becuase they[NRA] just want to pour concrete”

      Why build one when you can build three?

    • #740304
      Anonymous
      Participant

      It is going to take a lot more than a roundabout at Carrickmines to service all the developments either built or planned for the Sandyford area. The following are just two examples of further projects to come on stream of the coming period.

      50,000 Square metres on a former factory unit in Sandyford

      http://www.stw.ie/projects/project.asp?id=83

      The ESB building you were looking for Phil:

      http://www.stw.ie/projects/project.asp?id=151

      This is in addition to the massive Central Park in Leopardstown and many other developments in Sandyford such as the Atrium development. There is also the proposed Park developments retail warehousing scheme that will ensure weekend gridlock as well.

      My predicition is that if the Carrickmines roundabout is built, the Red Cow complete with LUAS will be empty in comparison. It could even become the worlds biggest traffic jam

    • #740305
      Anonymous
      Participant

      http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0212/luas.html

      (16:06) The Secretary General of the Department of Transport, Julie O’Neill, has said she expects the changes being planned at the Red Cow roundabout in west Dublin to cost about €37m.

      Ms O’Neill made the comments to the Public Accounts Committee.

      The changes include flyovers and underpasses that would reduce the amount of traffic crossing the path of the Luas tram.

      The controversial junction links the M50 and the Naas Road and has been subject to traffic delays.

      Ms O’Neill said the upgrading of the Red Cow roundabout is now at planning stage and could be started by 2005 and completed by 2007.

      A decision on who will carry out the upgrading has not been made.”

      Quote “could be started by 2005 and completed by 2007.”

      Pigs will fly

      I was out in deepest Blanchardstown returning via the back roads to Finglas on Monday, the Traffic was backed up solid from the Westlink to close to Finglas. This despite the second bridge.

      Someone needs to get their finger out in a hurry because the jams are gettin about a kilometre longer a year.

    • #740306
      garethace
      Participant

      Plenty of fine ’roundabout’ architecture here:

      http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=507&si=&page=3&sort=1&perpage=9&password=&ppuser=&stype=0

      Just browse your way through the gallerys, no shortage of car-oriented environmental design in the states no doubt about it.

    • #740307
      Anonymous
      Participant

      http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=2308&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=507

      What a classic would compliment the red cow perfectly

      http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=4916&password=&sort=1&size=big&cat=507&page=

      I have always liked Joshua House, it was a very smart move and it really shows the difference between the civilised core and wild edge that now categorises Dublin

    • #740308
      garethace
      Participant

      I read Frank’s piece about open spaces in Dublin last night, the trouble for me, is that to me, someplace like the Canal banks in Dublin are ideal open space amenities, running straight through the heart of the city, and certainly the one I know down in Portobello etc, has slowly but certainly over the past number of years began to be used by people, actually as a linear park. Parts down toward Wilton terrace could do with some help though.

      I think in the periphery the same thing – what kinds of open spaces you make as public amenities – certainly the Nutgrove and surroundings idea, doesn’t work nearly as well as parts of canal banks are now doing. But in warmer climates I think, that places like Spain and Italy have an easier job to make open spaces work. I mean, look at this kip – it is almost pleasant, but probably the equivalent of worst oliver bond.

      http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8754&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=527

      Notice the old street car in this one:

      http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8876&password=&sort=1&cat=513&page=4

      http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8912&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=513

      Red Cow roundabout couldn’t never look that pleasant.

    • #740309
      Anonymous
      Participant

      http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/sho…&sort=1&cat=527

      Thats Iquique in Northern Chile and its not a bad spot either, do you not think the people look a little different to the spanish? Had a great three days there in 2001.

      But back to the point I have always admired the plazas planned by the spanish as the open design and high percentage of paving vs lawns is conducive to circulation of large numbers of people in all weathers.

      The second linked image reminds me of say thomas st open and probably chocked with traffic now. I definitely prefer the plaza model of a central park similar to Wolfe Tone St but generally surrounded on four sides by streets.

      The roundabouts were just a short term solution which we are now paying dearly for.

      At least €37m for red cow, which is only the first,

      Finglas

      Blanchardstown

      Palmerstown

    • #740310
      garethace
      Participant

      Non obvious spatial amenities are perhaps very obvious, we just do not see them.

      I say the Frank Mc in his article has missed some of the best ‘open spaces’ around Dublin – so of the more obvious ones too. I mean, if the Liffery has a few more boardwalks etc, it could become a great public amenity – as it is, the new boardwalks allow one to enjoy it. The campshires are great.

      http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?galleryID=15245

      That image even reminds me a bit of parts of Dublin castle. If they are invested in and taken proper care of, with decent public lighting at night, elements, or edges like that, changes in level etc, are all important public amenities in ways, think of the spanish steps in rome. Like the way this building is integrated into the ruins.

      http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?galleryID=14359

      This site is a jem:

      http://urban.cccb.org/

      Lots can be done out there I think, we need to start seeing properly first though. For instance Booterstown marsh – a space left between various things – could be called an edgedom – dunno, what people think of its treatment as a natural marsh area in the middle of the city. That is, not manacured like elsewhere. Paul refers to this the odd time, about pockets of space in the city, here and there not be touched – kinda private etc, etc, dunno.

      But the thing is, we make a big ‘splash’ job of someplace like Smithfield – when parts of the canal down in Wilton Terrace become prostitutes corner at night, ya know. It is like doing this big Helix mother of a cultural centre up in DCU, just because it is a university and doing 500k apartments on Carlisle pier.

      You can get away with different kinds of buildings around these edgedoms etc too. You are tied down to the same rules:

      http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?galleryID=13958

      I think Koolhaas and the boys have tried to work that idea a lot. This looks fine in a strict street context, trabeated architecture, column and beam, but out in Red Cow etc, it just looks way too fusy and preoccupied with itself.

      http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?galleryID=13909

      I like that Alfa Romeo building alot I must say. This one isn’t bad, for someplace like the Red Cow etc, I think:

      http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?galleryID=12956

      Not a bad looker, around red cow either:

      http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?galleryID=18279

    • #740311
      garethace
      Participant

      Just an interesting architectural problem I think:

      http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?galleryID=15471

      How to create architecture in such a low rise, sprawling environment. The likes of which Thom Mayne and so on, have looked to deal with I think.

    • #740312
      garethace
      Participant

      Just click.

      Comments?

    • #740313
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Would easily be Irelands best roundabout!!!!

      Not mad on the hotel but in terms of additional road capacity the roundabout has it.

      Also putting a few trees in a roundabout gives it a civilised feel and there only being a few ensures that visibility is not seriously impared.

      Makes our M50 roundabouts look damn shabby

    • #740314
      garethace
      Participant

      But just look at that for a mess of a hotel design, seriously, for the outskirts of a city? Just because it has a roundabout? Bewleys etc, etc. Lynch’s hotel beside Raheen roundabout Limerick, Red Cow etc, etc.

    • #740315
      garethace
      Participant

      Libeskind, has a hotel on his pier entry:

      https://archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2744&pagenumber=2

      Maybe he should find a good roundabout so? 🙂

    • #740316
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Given the Route of the Dublin-Cork Motorway failing to serve Limerick our American investors aren’t happy

      According to Joanne Richardson the CEO of the American Chamber of Commerce Ireland,

      “a significant transport infrastructure deficit remains in the Mid West region. She urged the improvement of the road network between Shannon, Limerick, Dublin and Galway.

      ‘Infrastructure improvement in the regions needs to be accelerated if we are to continue to attract investment and achieve balanced industrial development throughout Ireland,’ “

      http://www.onbusiness.ie/2004/0216/uschamber.html

      Well the Portlaoise- Limerick section should be finished by about 2015 and The Limerick-Galway section by about 2035 to coincide with Turkeys accession to the EU

    • #740317
      garethace
      Participant

      Interesting thanx.

    • #740318
      FIN
      Participant

      that early!!!! good stuff!

    • #740319
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Typical Dublin mindset of the NRA, if it doesn’t go to Dublin its not important.

      I never understood why greater connectivity wasn’t developed between Galway, Limerick, Waterford and Cork.

      If a motorway was built from Oranmore to the N8 at Tipperary; Galway and Cork would be linked by motorway via Limerick, Galway and Waterford would be 2/3rds linked.

      No 45 caravans on the Dublin to Belfast motorway instead!!!!!!!

    • #740320
      FIN
      Participant

      is the ennis bypass the start of such a horse trail? i think that getting a full motorway between here and there is going to take at least until 2035 as u said as there is just too much hassle to stand it it’s way. probably some rare plant or other nationally important considerations. and definately if it’s not linking dublin then what’s the point???? i know it may sound like a culchie bitching about how we never get anything down here but while i don’t generally air such views it is unbelievably true. the only reason we are getting a motorway from dublin to galway is so it’ll be easier for dubliners to come down here on bank holidays when there is a massive influx. there is a complete railway from sligo to limerick and from there i presume to cork. this would serve as major infrastructural line however it remains closed while not only a luas but now a metro for the greater dublin area. and that is besides the dart. now if anyone can see sense in that then please feel free to enlighten me.

    • #740321
      Anonymous
      Participant

      There must be a route between Ennis and Oranmore that contains nothing other than farmland. The Burren is quite a distance from the existing route via Gort.

      It is not that Dublin shouldn’t get a metro and LUAS, it is that at least Tuam to Athenry and Athenry to the proposed Shannon rail link make economic sense as stand alone projects.

      I am not sure that the Sligo to Tuam section would make sense on purely economic grounds based upon current traffic flows. But certainly a Tuam to Limerick section would.

      It really is a case of doing both

    • #740322
      FIN
      Participant

      oh! absolutely. i’m not saying don’t have the metro cos it is well needed but am saying do this as well. the tuam/sligo one doesn’t have to be passenger. freight would work as well.

    • #740323
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Quote “know it may sound like a culchie bitching about how we never get anything down here but while i don’t generally air such views it is unbelievably true”

      It is a disgrace that Galway doesn’t receive proper recognition as a large urban centre, the same could equally be said of Limerick and Waterford.

      As a University City it deserves a lot better than it has recieved. A commuter rail service would be a decent start.

    • #740324
      FIN
      Participant

      ah! sure they’ll think of us eventually! 🙂 it’s absolutely stupid and this gateway hub was the greatest waste of time and money. it seems to be just a publicity ploy to say to the masses ” look we haven’t forgotten you”

    • #740325
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Quote “this gateway hub was the greatest waste of time and money”

      There were many who argued that there should have been two Gateways, namely Cork and Galway and that they should have been developed as full cities over a twenty year timeframe.

      Quote “look we haven’t forgotten you”

      I however think that to mix pure spatial planning with a little political reality what the NSS actually adopted was best.

      The three Midlands towns Sligo and Dundalk in addition to Limerick and Waterford. This constituted an acceptable level of dilution.

      But what happened next? Decentralisation

    • #740326
      FIN
      Participant

      yea!! to none of these hubs… ha,ha.. in general as i said before it is a good idea but to politicions home towns is hilarious. typical of our corrupt government. not that the alternatives are any better. as i have also said before bring on a dictator!!!!!! apart from the whole killing everyone thing… that tends to just generate bad press. then we will get something done.
      this price for the ennis by-pass is something else. i think we should re-tender everyone of them. spend a lot less money on them and bring in the turks.

    • #740327
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Originally published by RTE Interactive
      Viking artefacts found on Waterford road route

      01 May 2004 09:46
      A suspected Viking settlement has been discovered along the planned route of the €300m Waterford City By-Pass.

      The National Roads Authority has confirmed to RTÉ News that it is treating the site as one of ‘special interest’ and it could demand ‘a significant amount’ of additional expenditure.

      The NRA says this site was located at Woodtown last August, and, following preliminary excavations, several artefacts were located which suggest it was a possible Viking settlement.

      It is believed the planned road would affect one third of the site.

      An NRA spokesman told RTÉ News that the NRA had been adopting a responsible approach by consulting with the Department of the Environment, the National Museum and the Heritage Council.
      He added there had been no prior evidence of such a site, despite an in-depth planning process.

      He said the NRA believes that the by-pass can and should go ahead because the routing cannot be changed without restarting the planning process from the beginning.

      It argues the site should either be excavated and then built on, or ‘preserved’ – in other words, built over without excavation in order to protect what is underneath.

      They’ve done it again……..

      Just where would we be without our NRA?

    • #740328
      asdasd
      Participant

      They’re hardly Roman ruins are they? Or even Stone ruins, which would have some value preserving. The vikings built in wood, a thousand years after other societies built in marble. I have yet, in fact , to visit an obvious viking ruin. Although there are parts are Dublin around ChristChurch which have been built over by the Normans – we have to strain to imagine the old trading post, or see it in reproduction.

      So what exactly is the fuss? Viking architecture is shite, and did they produce much in the way of artifacts that would interest anyone outside of a specialized field of interest? I doubt it. And if so, and I so far missed the Dublivinia exhibit – then what would be in this new site that isn’t already on display. This “site” was unknown about 2 weeks ago, it was underground – it is fair to say that it would be preserved by keeping it underground.

      The vikings were a materialistic, unlearned and exploitative culture. Nobody outside Ireland’s reactionary conservationist movement really gives a shit – not even in their homelands – about what this rather culturally bereft people produced. Irish culture at the time was far more advanced ( Book of Kells, etc) and is thus known outside the insular world of Ireland’s conservation movement. Norman culture was advanced. British culture was advanced. The fetishisation of the mad blonde-heads has always amused me.

      And we are – given the long history of the country – going to run into these ruins as we build roads, are we not?

      the Italians manage to build roads despite overturning, no doubt, roman ruins and artifacts every kilometre. We have enough viking shite in the museums. Build a road.

    • #740329
      lexington
      Participant

      Ahh the Kinsale Road Roundabout, Cork city – where 3 motorways and 4 roads meet, lanes disappear half-way round and no-one is ever really sure how to get off without crashing into someone else. A true wonder of modern city planning. All I can say is thank God for the long over due and pricey 42million euro fly-over which has begun construction. Hopefully, with it’s presence, we can finally account for the 25,000 out of the 85,000 vehicles that go missing there every day.

    • #740330
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Originally posted by asdasd
      They’re hardly Roman ruins are they? Or even Stone ruins, which would have some value preserving. The vikings built in wood, a thousand years after other societies built in marble

      So what exactly is the fuss? Viking architecture is shite, and did they produce much in the way of artifacts that would interest anyone outside of a specialized field of interest? I doubt it

      The Viking phase was an important phase in Irish History, the Vikings established Dublin, Cork, Waterford and Limerick, Irelands principal centres to name a few of their trading outposts.

      Originally posted by asdasd
      The vikings were a materialistic, unlearned and exploitative culture. Nobody outside Ireland’s reactionary conservationist movement really gives a shit – not even in their homelands – about what this rather culturally bereft people produced. Irish culture at the time was far more advanced ( Book of Kells, etc) and is thus known outside the insular world of Ireland’s conservation movement. Norman culture was advanced. British culture was advanced. The fetishisation of the mad blonde-heads has always amused me.

      You are some Euro-sceptic do you want to throw in a few ‘Hordes of Huns’ into your theory? It might be stating the obvious but you can’t defend yourself with a manuscript and the Renaisance was yet to return Europe to roman cultural influences. this was 900 AD

      Originally posted by asdasd
      And we are – given the long history of the country – going to run into these ruins as we build roads, are we not?

      the Italians manage to build roads despite overturning, no doubt, roman ruins and artifacts every kilometre. We have enough viking shite in the museums. Build a road.

      The Granada protocol was adopted in 1986 to protect built heritage it is an important European code that cannot simply be covered in concrete. It is time for the NRA to conduct proper archaeological examination prior to advanced construction.

    • #740331
      d_d_dallas
      Participant

      Not to split hairs, but the vikings did not establish Cork at all. It is only recently that any form of any scrap of viking remnants have been discovered. True for Waterford and Dublin though.

    • #740332
      Anonymous
      Participant

      I just presumed given the excellent natural harbour that is Cork that the Vikings would have established a settlement there.

      But back to Waterford, it really saddens me that when such an important discovery is made that it is not a case of real celebration. I appreciate that the situation in Waterford city is far from Ideal and that the N25 is one of the most strategic roads in the country. But a find of this quality is extremely rare, it has been stated that the only comparible site in Europe receives 2m+ visitors a year. If 20% of this number were to be attracted to Waterford it would provide a major boost to the local economy.

      It is time to get out the CPO agents to reroute this by a couple of hundred metres, it is possible to have a road and an extremely attractive canidate for a world heritage site.

    • #740333
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Originally published by RTE Interactive
      Decision on Viking site in two weeks

      15 May 2004 18:54
      The Minister for the Environment, Martin Cullen, has said he will announce within two weeks, a decision on the future of a newly discovered Viking settlement near Waterford.

      Speaking in Waterford at an informal meeting of EU environment ministers, Mr Cullen said the 9th Century remains, found in the path of a proposed ring road, were quite extraordinary.

      The director of the national museum, Dr Pat Wallace, has called for the site to be excavated fully.

      However, the National Roads Authority has proposed that the ring road be built on top of it.

      Earlier, delegates from the 25 EU member states were welcomed to Waterford by Alderman Tom Cunningham as the talks got underway.

      The three hours of talks were to focus on the issue of waste management and, in particular, the illegal transport of waste across borders.

      A report published by the Environmental Protection Agency earlier this week found that while Ireland had exceeded its recycling targets, the amount of rubbish we generate is actually increasing.

      NRA supremo Malone was quoted during the weeksaying

      Originally published by RTE Interactive
      that people who made a lot of noise were being listened to and that they should be listening to those who were quietly working away

      Well if all my projects were often a multiple of their original budget I’d be silently unemployed, when one proposes to concrete over a potential World Heritage site, it is a good time to be quiet. Whether they should still be working is another question.

    • #740334
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Originally published by RTE Interactive http://www.rte.ie/news

      Heritage safeguards ‘worthless’: Gilmore

      17 June 2004 16:56
      The Labour TD, Eamon Gilmore, has told the Dáil that safeguards included in the National Monuments Amendment Bill are worthless.

      Mr Gilmore said that the bill, which contains a provision to allow the Government to sell off national monuments, only gives the National Museum 14 days to investigate and assess the value of any monument or site of potential importance.

      The main aim of the bill, which was published by the Minister for the Environment, Martin Cullen, earlier this week, is to allow for construction work on the M50 at Carrickmines Castle to be completed.

      Does the roof of the Four Courts constitute a roundabout?

      While I wish to see the completion of the M50 I can’t help thinking that Cullen has done it again. The provision for only 14 days of examination by the National Museum is just not enough.

      Who would buy a National Monument to retain it as is and still give public access?

      If it is legally this defective it will have no better success than Mullaghmore.

    • #740335
      FIN
      Participant

      time team do it in 3 days!!!!!
      what exactly did they find in waterford that was so amazing?

    • #740336
      Anonymous
      Participant

      A viking Settlement 500+ metres in length and a few streets wide, it was a major trading outpost. It will be the most important Viking site in these Islands and possibly further if initial forecasts are bourne out.

      Very good Kodak selling potential

    • #740337
      Anonymous
      Participant

      The Infamous Kinsale Road rounabout

      http://irelandphotography.com/aerial/n103322a.jpg

    • #740338
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Thomond Park wrote:

      The Infamous Kinsale Road rounabout

      http://irelandphotography.com/aerial/n103322a.jpg

      Not for long
      http://www.corkcorp.ie/ourservices/roads/pdf/eis_pg3.pdf

    • #740339
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Yes but at what cost to the taxpayer?

    • #740340
      Anonymous
      Inactive

      @Thomond Park wrote:

      Yes but at what cost to the taxpayer?

      €42million

      It a part for the upgrade for the Primary national routes ans its planned to start this year and finished in 2007. It to make the road a bypass of Cork, but it will probably have the same effect as the M50 (which was also supposed to be a By-Pass)

    • #740341
      JPD
      Participant
      weehamster wrote:
      &#8364]

      I read this very interseting thread and it needs to be said roundabouts on National roads are a disgrace, why couldn’t they get it right like every other country? How many roundabouts do you see in America?

    • #740342
      Anonymous
      Participant

      don’t quite get all the fuss about the red cow seeing as there are two other identical roundabouts where the N81 & N4 cross the M50.

      Walkinstown is probably one of the worst for the nerves, with 6 roads leading to it … works surprisingly well though given the amount of traffic it takes daily …

    • #740343
      lexington
      Participant

      @JPD wrote:

      I read this very interseting thread and it needs to be said roundabouts on National roads are a disgrace, why couldn’t they get it right like every other country? How many roundabouts do you see in America?

      Well I think we’re very very slowly coming around to the idea that they’re more trouble than they’re worth. The Kinsale Road Roundabout is a good example of that. Cork City Council have been forced to get a move on with it’s long overdue flyover. At peak times, tail-backs approaching the roundabout from Douglas can stretch almost 2km and about the same from the Bishopstown approach. I remember last summer being stuck in tail-backs (with all 3 lanes full) for the good part of an hour before I even got onto the roundabout. It’s a disaster, with lanes criss-crossing and disappearing halfway through. It’s a wonder anyone makes it out alive. It’s traffic lights seem to add to the crisis. The original flyover was scheduled to cost just over 25m euro, the new 42m euro price tag seems like bit of a rise doesn’t it? Work is due to start in June, with Ascon as main contractors and a completion date set for early 2007. The original start date was supposedly set for late Feb, early March.

      2 other roundabouts along the same stretch of motorway are also getting flyovers at a cost of 70m euro – those at Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabout. The combined daily movements for these 3 roundabouts is approx. a quarter of a million movements per day (that’s a quiet day).

      Nice to see the tax-payer getting value for money.

    • #740344
      Anonymous
      Participant

      NRA had no senior accountants when agreeing road costs
      From:ireland.com
      Thursday, 12th May, 2005

      The National Roads Authority (NRA) did not have an accountant at management level at a time it was negotiating road building contracts worth billions of euros, it emerged today.

      It also emerged that the cost of projects originally estimated at €5.6 billion is now over €18 billion and rising.

      The revelations emerged at the launch of the Dail Public Accounts Committee interim report on the Department of Transport.

      The contracts for construction of roads under the National Development Plan 2000 – 2006 were awarded by the NRA on a closed tender system. When awarded, there was provision for cost over-runs based on a variety of factors. “It might have been that it was men against boys when it came to the settlement figure,” Committee chairman Michael Noonan said.

      He referred to several examples in the report which showed the cost of some projects at more than twice that originally agreed. In one case, the Croom by-pass in Co Limerick, the original cost of €10.37 million rose to €26.2 million – an over-run of 160 per cent.

      Mr Noonan said there was a lack of expertise at the NRA evidenced by the fact that last year “there wasn’t a single accountant at management level”.

      “When we called them in 12 months later they were pleased to tell us they had hired their first accountant.”

      The report found 40 per cent of the cost increases were due to inflation and 16 per cent due to “a systematic failure to cost certain elements of the schemes at planning stage”. It also said 20 per cent of extra costs could be attributed to changes to the plans and additional work added to the original project.

      While the committee recognised that improved contracts and a tightening up of procedures at the NRA had likely improved the situation, this could only be properly established by a future audit.

      Mr Noonan noted, however, that a contract awarded under the newer, design-and-build system at Youghal, Co Cork, had led to a cost over-run in excess of 400 per cent.

      The report found cost over-runs of 42 per cent – in excess of €420 million – in a series of projects completed between 2000 and 2003.

      Committee vice chairman John McGuinness of Fianna Fáil said that the public would not forgive politicians if lessons were not learned from what had been a serious waste of public money in road building.

      “It’s been a steep learning curve that’s come at a considerable cost … We simply weren’t at the races when it comes to the spending of tax payers’ money,” Mr McGuinness said.

      The Green Party’s Dan Boyle said questions were not answered at ministerial level and “there had been an unhealthy sense of complacency throughout the period”.

      One of the committees recommendations included calling on the NRA to take “a more proactive approach to financial management” and developing better estimating procedures.

      Mr Noonan also said it was difficult for the committee to asses the value of Public Private Partnerships because the private partner could regard information sought as commercially sensitive.

      http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/5547210?view=Eircomnet

    • #740345
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Dunkettle at present

      Any thoughts?

    • #740346
      dave123
      Participant

      Red cow/. Parkway in Limerick, Kinsale is bad but it’s being upgraded at the momeent.. most of our roundwboute are bad, every new road with a junction is provided as one. why do we have these bloody things built everywhere these days. All the new ones on the old N7 between Monasterevin at Portlaoise. I’d rather automated traffic lights as the side roads are minimul in traffic and IMO are much safer than steep roundabouts on wide national routes.

      There is no harm in having a few traffic lights here and there. Imagine Newlnads cross and Newcastle N4 getting roundabouts? which will not happen when the N4 and N7 will be upgraded.

    • #740347
      phatman
      Participant

      While Dunkettle in its present form is less than ideal to cater for the confluence of two major interurban roads, it’s really not that bad, insofar as it is reasonably quick to get through, especially following the installation of trafflic lights and addition of an extra lane. Certainly wouldn’t compare of the horror of the Kinsale Road Roundabout in bygone days. Unfortunately, its location is spatially constrained, and is far too close to the tunnel to allow for the construction of an adequate grade-seperated butterfly interchange, or something similar. Another fine example of the tremendous foresight displayed by the City Council, who would have us driving around the city on a two lane undivided ring road if they had had their way!

    • #740348
      Anonymous
      Participant

      So you reckon that Dunkettle will remain unresolved

    • #740349
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Newlands Cross is pretty bad & there are no plans to resolve it.

      It will be the only remaining junction once the Naas Road Flyovers are finished (this September) & the Red Cow removed by 2008 …

    • #740350
      phatman
      Participant

      @Thomond Park wrote:

      So you reckon that Dunkettle will remain unresolved

      For the foreseeable future I’m afraid so, yes.

    • #740351
      dave123
      Participant

      @Peter FitzPatrick wrote:

      Newlands Cross is pretty bad & there are no plans to resolve it.

      It will be the only remaining junction once the Naas Road Flyovers are finished (this September) & the Red Cow removed by 2008 …

      It will be horrendous when not only the The Naas and M50 is upgraded but the entire N7/N8 which will be average 110Kph into a set of red lights and a busy junction! surely there is someone planning to do something about it.

      Sdcc. are really make sponge cake out of the road network. they spends millions on the QBC through already conjested Naas road, but leave the rest of the Naas road in tatters including the Newlands junction:eek:

      Is there any architects that could upload a photo of their ideal interchange at newlands cross?? just a suggestion.

      Dunkettle give me a break. It’s not that bad the N25 underneath moves perfectly the roundabout itself has traffic lights of course but nothing worse than it’s made out to be. Afew free flowing slips added on all lefts will greatly ease congestion. Even putting a cloverleaf interchange would actually bring ever faster traffic hitthing the lee tunnel which will not help in the long run.

    • #740352
      THE_Chris
      Participant

      Dunkettle will be terrible soon.

      Once the Kinsale Road flyover is done, that traffic will jam the tunnel.
      Add the 700 houses at Glanmire in a few years.
      Add the impact of the North Ring.

      This roundabout will soon be known as the Red Cow of the South. Everyones underestimating just how bad it will be.

    • #740353
      Anonymous
      Participant

      re Newlands – really seems to be nothing planned dave …

      a friend of mine grilled a local TD at the door a few days ago, all he got was mumblings about some engineering report that was done a few years ago (sounded like he was making that up) before quickly gibering on about the m50 upgrade & the widening of the naas road …

      really doesn’t make sense, every other junction is being eliminated except for newlands, will be pretty difficult to sort out – there must be 8 or 9 rights of way …. some of the adjacent land is in cc ownership as far as i know so there probably is something on the long finger …

      …only the long finger is not good enough.

    • #740354
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Emailed SDCC about Newlands Cross, actually got a reply fairly quickly.
      Basically there is something in the pipeline, they they will do the obvious – either tunnel or build a bridge for the N7 but no more than that …

      (either way a pretty messy job no matter what way you look at it, fairly unusual to have a full 12 flow junction all on the one level)

      Still has to go through all the planning hoops & your woman completely missed my point that this work should have been timed to be completed with the red cow.
      Probably looking at 2011.

      ” Dear Mr. Fitzpatrick,

      South Dublin County Council and the National Roads authority are
      currently examining proposals to upgrade the Newlands Cross Junction.
      It is proposed to remove the traffic lights and create a free flow on
      the N7. The R113 (Belgard Road- Fonthill Road) will be examined in the
      context of this proposal. The options suggested include building a
      bridge for the N7 and maintaining the R113 (Belgard-Fonthil)l at its
      existing level or tunneling the N7. The scheme will be required to pass
      through all the necessary procedures for planning approval: Public
      Consultation, Environmental Impact Statement and Oral Hearing before
      proceeding to design and construction.

      The NRA are currently undertaking the three lane widening of the M50 and
      the Outer Ring Road Phase 2, (Adamstown to N4) is on site, whilst Phase
      3 is at tender with a view to commencing on site late 2006.

      If you have any queries please contact me.

      Donna Lakes

      Senior Executive Engineer”

    • #740355
      Anonymous
      Participant

      Peter good to see you got a response so quickly

      @Peter FitzPatrick wrote:

      The NRA are currently undertaking the three lane widening of the M50 and
      the Outer Ring Road Phase 2, (Adamstown to N4) is on site, whilst Phase
      3 is at tender with a view to commencing on site late 2006.

      If you have any queries please contact me.

      Donna Lakes

      Senior Executive Engineer”

      Dear Donna

      Why are there roundabouts on phase 1?

    • #740356
      holton
      Participant

      I remember reading an article in the local rag about 10 years ago about plans to upgrade Newlands Cross. Since then, traffic volumes have got much worse and this infamous junction remains virtually the same.

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