Information on Blackrock Baths

Have you tried the Irish Architectural Archive at 73 Merrion Square? -They are usually very helpful.

Wow – what a great subject for your masters..
How does one get in there? I’d love to take pictures of it.

From today’s Irish Times

“Ms Niamh Bhreathnach (Labour) asked if the owners of the Blackrock Baths site had approached the council with a proposal to develop the area. There were rumours of proposals to build apartments and a car-park on the site, she said.”

I’m going to see if I can get in to photograph the place in the new year…
If you want any of the images for your work you can email me at roskavanagh@eircom.net

ros, i’d try to get in asap….. i imagine you could be the last one to do it….

Hi All
Thanks for the latest info on the Baths. Its quite a controversal topic. I’m not sure how long they are going to last,but Idrone terrace residents Association nearby are a militant lot and are very protective of the structure in its original form which is lucky.
I’ve still had no luck in locating the drawings. I took lots of photos and slides of the Baths this spring. Ros, if you are going to try to get into the building, check the tide times first as it is accessible only at low tide. It also helps to be quite tall as its a bit of a struggle to climb over the wall. I’d advise you to bring someone with you as its quite dangerous inside, slippy, deep pool etc, for safety reasons. Also, plenty of dodgy characters hang about there!

It’s Treasury Holdings that owns it isn’t it.

Yes, treasury holdings bought the lease for the site from the Pembroke Estate. I also belive that the y gained the lease for the foreshore from the Blackrock Baths right up to the Merrion Gates as part of the Deal, don’t quote me on this though. I’ve heard that they are just sitting on the site at the moment, as many of their other projects are quite contentious, so as not to rock the boat. I think any proposal that they may put forward re: the bath would cause a public outcry. I think that Arthur Gibney and Partners were commissioned to draw up some outline proposals for the site, who knows?

Yes treasury holdings own the baths and as far as I know, the foreshore as far as the merrion gates. They bought the lease from the Pembroke Estate. They had Arthur Gibney and Partners do a proposal for the site a while back but i’m not sure what its status is just now. I think that they are just sitting on the site for the moment, so as not to rock the publicity boat with regard to many of their other controversial sites.

There is a report of the opening of Blackrock Baths “last month” in The Irish Builder of July 15, 1887. The following dimensions are given: men’s pool = 165 feet by 100 feet and varying in depth from 3 feet to 7 feet 6 inches; ladies’ pool = 102 feet by 54 feet and varying in depth from “a few inches” to 7 feet. The pools were surrounded by a broad promenade.

(It seems to have been a good time for swimming baths: Tara Street baths opened during Summer 1886.)

Information on three tenderers “for the erection of concrete swimming baths for the Blackrock Promenade Pier and Baths Company Limited” is given in a report in the IB issue of June 1, 1886. The design was prepared by Mr W Kaye Parry (whose architectural firm Kaye Parry Ross was later associated with the Iveagh Baths – and, as Kaye Parry Ross and Hendy, designed Archer’s Garage), MA, engineer, 42 Dame Street. Quantities were prepared by Mr H McConnell.

The article refers to both “original plans” and “amended plans”. The tenders for the amended plans are approximately 30% to almost 40% lower than for the original plans, so we can only imagine what great things (the promenade pier?) were lost from the scheme after the tenders were received.

The contractor was Thomas Ingram Dixon of Dublin. His original tender price was £2,543, subsequently reduced to £1,947. Interestingly, his was neither the highest nor the lowest of the three tenders.

The use in Ireland in those days of mass concrete was still quite novel, particularly in marine situations – although the Dublin Port and Docks authority were extrememly adept at this, through their brilliant engineer Mr Bindon Stoney, who has been called “the father of Irish concrete” by Prof J W de Courcy.

Portland cement was readily available, both locally (the Dublin Portland Cement Company upgraded its macinery in October 1886, due to “the present large demand”) and from abroad, either through agents for companies such as Vectis or direct (for example, the Port and Docks bought theirs from London’s Medway Portland Cement Company).

In a review of “West’s System of Concrete Extruction” in its issue of January 15, 1886, the IB states: “In studying concrete, there is not a vast storehouse of experience in the use of that material…” In the following year, on May 15, the IB printed a summary of a paper on “The Manufacture of Portland Cement in Dublin”, delivered that month to the Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland by Arthur G Ryder of the Dublin Portland Cement Company. It states: ” … The attendance of members on the occasion was unusually large… Mr Ryder’s paper elicited an animated discussion, which lasted for over an hour…”

Any pre-1900 concrete in Ireland is today thought to be of great interest. Blackrock Baths – a pioneering work, and one of impressive durability – represents cutting edge technology at the dawn of concrete usage in Ireland.

Thanks for the information Trace.
I had already found the articles you mentioned in the Dun Laoghaire Library on the Microfiche, but the other info re concrete is very interesting.

There are a few excellent photographs of the baths at the beginning of the 1940’s in the Photographic Archive in Temple Bar, where it looks very pristine and the original foot bridge is intact, probably because of the presence of diesel only trains. I alos found a great copy of the swimming associations annual review from the 20/30’s in the National Library reading room, it’s got some good photos of diving competitions during the Tailtean Games and candid shots of the spectators.

I still haven’t sourced a copy of the drawings. I know that from the article that appeared in the Builder re: tender submissions, that copies of the drawings were made available in the Blackrock Library at the time, but enquiries there have drawn a blank. I know that DLRCC have an archive department, but continual harassing of them for a few months got me nowhere. I was going to apply to search the archive personally using the freedom of information act, does anyone know the success rates of this line of action?

There was an article by Judith Crosbie, ‘Dublin’s sea baths lie forlorn’, in the Irish Times on August 17, 2000 that is not available on the IT website. An extract:

‘Both the council and locals said the Blackrock baths would never be used for bathing again, and Treasury Holdings, which has had a lease on the property for the past 2½ years, said – officially – that it has no plans for its development.

‘There were ideas to have a shopping centre and a leisure facility built where the baths now stand but this idea has been scrapped. It is understood, however, that the need for parking beside the DART station could become a component of any future plan. The issue is a political hot potato due to the concerns of local residents, especially in picturesque Idrone Terrace.

‘Betty Coffey, a local Fianna Fail councillor, said she would oppose any proposal for a commercial development on the site. “They haven’t got a hope in hell of getting it. We’re not going to give a site like that out to a commercial development,” she said.’

Hi Trace,
I have seen a plan that intended to address the parking issues and it proposed a multi storey carpark where the existing surface carpark is at the moment. The proposed carpark was at its highest point level with the main street in Blackrock! However, I doubt that this scenario will ever be approved. As you mentioned Idrone Terrace and its residents are a force to be reckoned with and will protect their amenity as much as possible. The proposal that I mentioned above also illustrated the infilling of the shore in front of the pool (demolished) to an area covering about four to six times current pool surface area. On this reclaimed platform was built Apartments and retail facilities. I know it sounds pretty far fetched, but it makes for scary reading by the fact that it was a serious proposal.

Cllr. Nessa Childers and I are holding an ‘Ideas’ meeting for Blackrock Baths on Wednesday 18th October at 8 pm in the Church Hall on Cross Avenue close to the junction with Mount Merrion Avenue in Blackrock.

Alanis Ltd controlled by the McCormack family and Treasury Holdings own the Baths and that D

I can’t make it on wednesday so I am going to offer some ideas here:
I don’t want to see the baths restored because I don’t think anyone would use it. I doubt people would hang out in a concrete box to swim in cold water any more.

The surface car parking should be removed and instead a multistorey should be built at Booterstown where there is plenty of space and traffic is not forced through a village.

The area used by surface parking should be a pedestrianised extension of blackrock village with shops at ground level and plenty of apartments overhead with no parking places provided. residents would have to use the train to go to town.

The narrow laneway to blackrock park is dangerous for pedestrians as it is not overlooked and provides a perfect venue for muggers. I imagine it would be hard to improve as the land to one side is railway while the other side is a garden. Ideally, the end of the garden would be built on with some mews dwellings with ground floor windows and the lane widened but I guess this is unlikely to happen unless the landowner was up for it.

Nice to see someone cares about it.

Thanks Frank for your thoughts.
nt
Around 40 people attended

Here’s my Press Release after the event:
http://ciarancuffe.com/PR/2006/PR061019.Blackrock.Baths.Meeting.htm

The meeting agreed that the following principles should inform any decision on the site’s future.

-That a framework Plan be drawn up for Blackrock Baths and the area between Blackrock Park, Idrone Terrace and Bath Place including the surface car park and bus parking area;

-this plan shall prioritise the development of public amenities on the site;

-high rise development shall be unacceptable for the site;

-concerns were expressed at the DC (town centre) zoning for the site as this might be used to promote inappropriate development;

-support was given for the Sandycove to Sutton cycleway and walkway proposal which would pass through the site;

-that a consultation process be initiated to invite the public’s views on the site.

Cheers,

Ciaran