good article on temple bar as it now is

mass tourism never did any city any good; the life of a city is separate from tourism; locals only need so many bars; the mix was all wrong and artificial and sowed the seeds now being harvested – what locals visit during the tourist weekends?

FMD can hardly be regarded as an objective commentator seen as he lives over the ‘mosh-pit’

yeah, did you see the picture of the wheelie bin beside the ‘no dumping’? These bins seem to be everywhere. Usually they block the footpath, so you have to step out on to the road to be nearly run over by white-van-man going at speeds not uncommen to motorways. I admit it usually only happens when you’re passing through in the morning, but still.

Temple Bar is a disaster in terms of waste management (particularly the waste coming from the insides of its visitors). I think Frank has the right to complain as much as any other person who, like me, is disgusted by the state of Temple Bar. Objective or not – Temple bar is a mess, no need to mince words about it.

The tourists who go there love it though,
Of course they could do with cleaning up the place a lot but as for the general type of businness activities that go on there, I’d say let it be. FMD complaints about the Goths and internet nerds are futile and would sound no different than if you were to hear the Goths complain about all the oldies hanging around the Tourist shops on Nassau st.

The Authorities could go pouring cash into Temple Bar to make it more trendy and mature but I think those resources would be better directed to another area of Dublin and work for a cultural quater elsewhere.

Leave TB as the Tourist pub area if that’s what they seem to like, it’s better than the bus station that could have been.

FMD aspires to live in a kind of area which is just not natural to Dublin & it’s people, Maybe.

True, Franks complaints about Goths and Internet Nerds makes him sound like an Auld lad. I suppose its just that Temple Bar was promised by Haughey and Magahy to be a Parisian Style Left bank rather than the big boozer it is. The trouble with Temple Bar is that there is too much in the way of pubs and restrurants and no real shopping ‘centres’.

Other than the IFC the cutural aspects are too new or too small to make the impact on the consciousness.

But what else is there for the Goths to do other than hang out!

I lived in Temple Bar for two and a half years and by the end, i found it an unlivable place to be in. Too many nights spent stepping over fights, vomits, bins and rubbish eventually force you to move out. I don’t think Frank is being an ould lad. It doesn’t matter what age you are – it has become an impossible place to live.
He’s also right that it has actually significantly deteriorated this year. His points about the level of graffiti and repair of some of the main buildings are completely accurate. Graffiti, which plagues much nicer cities like Paris, is now going to turn Dublin into a complete and utter mess and seems to be a relatively new or returning phenomenon.

I was merely trying to highlight a real problem and underline again the wide gulf that exists between all the hype about Temple Bar and the rather squalid reality on the ground. Just ask yourself this question: If you had architects from abroad coming over here, would you be so enthusiastic about bringing them around “Dublin’s cultural quarter” now, day or night?

Franks right – this needed to be said. Personally I wouldn’t bring a dog into Temple Bar at the moment unless it was to go to the IFC (which incidentally is also too small). Because us as locals (as in city centre dwellers as opposed to Temple Bar residents) don’t bother to go there, you don’t see how bad it is. I pass through it most saturday mornings and the condition of the area really does need to be brought to a wider audience.

The problem seems to be one of ‘maintainence’ as it is with everything in this city. The Millennium bridge is another example…its only been in place two years and already its looking a bit neglected. One half has no illumination at night and many of the small optical lights on the walkway and quayside are broken. Talbot Street is another example…loads of money spent and now it looks like a tip.
Theres not much you can do about the bars at this late stage except hope that some of them go out of business and the opportunity arises to change their usage.
It also seem that the wholke Temple Bar idea has run out of steam if the old city quarter is anything to go by. It looks as if they have given up around Essex Street. Like any project I think T.B. needs to be re assessed. Perhaps the city council could sit down with all the parties and figure out how they can get back to the original ideal of a ‘worldclass city cultural quarter’

‘Maintenance’ is the word and action…..we are very neglectful…look at the dirt of Henry Street too….over 2 million punts were spent on it’s revamp a couple of years ago and already it looks shoddy…I know such areas recieive a lot of traffic and activity of people….but such high profile prime areas should be constantly maintained and cared for……and the funding to do it is not a problem…the council aka corpo receives enough tax.

Good idea, Stephen. It is up to Dublin City Council now, as Temple Bar Properties has been a wholly-owned subsidiary of the council since January 1st. Something to do with devolution of power …

I’m actually embarressed that the City council refer to this area as Dublin’s Cultural Quarter – if this is the cultural highlight of the city we should be ashamed of ourselves.

Or is drinking our culture?

However can I make a law and order suggestion (in case Mr McDowell is listening), as regards puking, pissing, litter and graffiti the punishment should be a week’s cleaning detail – surely this would act as a deterent to any potential offenders!

Unfortunately I think drinking is our culture. The Irish pub, the guinness fueled session, the ‘craic’…its what visitors are told to come here for now. Its used to be out beautiful clean and green island but that not really something we want to be shouting about now that we have built all over it and polluted it with litter.

Its so funny though. The other day I was stopped by two Canadian girls looking for directions (the usual funny thing – looking for Camden St ending up wandering around quaint Sean Mc Dermott St!). Anyway I mentioned they would have to cross through Temple Bar to get to Camden St. Their beautiful blue eyes just lit up at the thought of visiting Dublin’s world famous Temple Bar.

Its sad they way the Council have taken their eye off the ball on this one but I suppose the silver lining to this cloud is that at leats they have something to build on.

Having an auld gargle, the craic, a sing song and banter adds life, warmth and liveliness to a place………I love it and it’s what the tourists come here for …..We are known world wide for having a drink (ok and a fight too) and perhaps we will never shake that image off…….and I suppose there is some truth in the stereotype imagery that different nationalities have acquired over time….. Some nationalities are known for their sassy classy style, or their sheer arrogance, or their sporting ability, or their loving ability, or their absolute coldness, or their great work ethos, etc…etc…..ours is the demon drink and if the mud sticks….well…….well why not capitalize on it as well as creating and developing our other talents, traits and characteristics………Here’s to the pub culture as well as everything else that is marvellous about us.

Nothing wrong with the pub culture as such – its the pissing, vomiting and fighting that is the problem!

Present day Irish pub culture would not even be recognised by someone who left Ireland only 10 years ago. Massive drinking blocks getting bigger and bigger. We can remember the original Temple Bar (the old Flannery’s) compared to what it is today. The all new Submarine Bar in Kimmage (with its Corporate Boxes) that was flashed around the world on Sky News no doubt great crack if you are with a crowd of 2000 +
(nearly bigger than some LOI grounds) and enjoying the Ole Ole side of the World Cup but no everyone’s idea of a venue to watch and analyse with your mates a football match. What use to be Irish pub culture and in particular Dublin pub culture is fading away rapidly due simply to the existing publican cartel.

By the way well done St Pat’s on knocking out one of Croatia’s top sides in the Inter Toto Cup yesterday in Inchicore any football fan siting in front of the telly for the last month would have enjoyed this local live virtually unknown international match. Roll on next to Belgium and FC Ghent next Saturday a side with 3 internationals but the Saints have Charlie Livingstone.

Good to see another Irish football fan here. Yeah, fair play to pats on beating Rijeka (of Prague according to those muppets in RTE!!!), will be interesting to see how they get on against a decent Belgian side. Went to Cork Citys Inter-toto game against Metallurgs of Latvia last year, among other City games, although they didn’t go through in the end (mostly due to Liam Murphys crap managerial ability).

Anyway, on a vaguely architectural note, i have an interest in Eircom League grounds and new developments and the like. I hear Pats have got a grant for the development of Richmond Park recently. What exactly are they planning on doing, ‘cos Richmond could do with some money being spent on it. I should start a new thread on this topic I suppose since this has nothing to do with Temple Bar, but I dunno if there’s enough interest here to keep it going.

Blain visit http://www.stpatsfc.com for the latest on development plans at Richmond Park and football news. We always have the crack in Mc Dowell’s with the lads from Cork when they pay us a visit. Best of luck this season and remember no spelling mistakes on those registration forms !!

speaking of LOI stadiums, anyone any idea when they are finishing the Shamrock Rovers Stadium on the Tallaght Bypass? Seems to be done in little bursts of activity.

[OT] Luke, did you, by any chance, used to practice shotokan in Pulse Fitness about 10 years back? Or was that a different Luke G ?

Dear friend I very much regret I am not the same Luke Gardnier as partook in the noble art of Shotokan @ Pulse Fitness as no doubt a fuller knowledge of its finer points and thought processes would indeed have stood me well in certain circumstances and situations I have encountered in the past and indeed would be of assistance in the future.

This Luke Gardnier would have liked to have walked talked and had a pint or two with the Late Great Luke Gardnier (Lord Mountjoy) of 18 century Dublin. He was the first and last great developer / planner this city ever had and who resided at 10 Henrietta Street and who originally planned among many things that Gardnier’s Mall (O’Connell St.) which set the scale for what is now regarded as central Dublin would be Dublin’s Portland Place.

O if now (of all periods since in this city’s development) we had in charge of Dublin men with the equivalent vision and energy of developer and great Dubliner Lord Mountjoy. What we call Dublin is largely the surviving legacy of the man.

More here Ro_g if yer interested

Gardiner Estate

blush – what a gaf! Just so you know I am not altogether mad there is a namesake old mucker of mine living just off Emmet Road in Inchicore!

Interesting fella – the original Mr. Gardiner – shame his legacy is so no unkonwn to the layman (including myself). Wonder if he was around today would be developing as high as he used to plan wide?

From Maurice Craig’s remarkable book Dublin 1660-1860.

An extract on the remarkable Luke Gardnier.
Page 265.

“On June 5th 1798 Lord Mountjoy was killed at the Battle of New Ross. This was the second and (practically) last Luke Gardnier,* a man who deserved better of his country than to die in a civil war on the wrong side. His Catholic Relief Act of 1778 was a landmark, and he had renewed his efforts with success in 1782. He had developed the North Side estate even more rapidly; at the time of his death it had spread along Denmark Street and Gardnier’s place to Mountjoy Square and Great Charles Street, and the half-mile avenue linking the Square with the Custom House had been laid out and partly built. His intention was at first to have the houses on several sides of the Square composed into grandiose elevations with porticoes, pilasters and central domes. But such a scheme was against the sense of the city and was abandoned. Most of the Square, except the east side, was built by 1798, by such craftsmen as Stapleton, William Pemberton and John Russell. Instead of the church that was originally proposed in the middle of the Square, St. George’s was ultimately built in Hardwicke Place, which was also Gardnier territory.”

* His grandson Luke died at the age of nine.

moot point i know but when was the Street anglised to Gardiner from Gardnier