Fees

Hi Meccano

What are looking for an architect to do? Are you looking for a high level of design? Are you looking for an architect to see through the project from inception through to completion and beyond (i.e. defects period)? If so, you cannot really compare the services of Grant and the like! You would possibly be suprised (by the end of the project) at the amount of work that architect puts in to the project to ‘earn’ their fees.

With particular reference to your post and fees – city vs. country – you are correct in saying on a % basis that there may be less fees for a ‘rural’ project. What I tend to do, and I’m sure others do, is weight the fees to take this into account so you might pay 10% in the Dublin are and 12.5% in a rural area. The % fee is really a roundabout way (sort of) of charging an hourly rate – the bigger the project, the more work there is for the architect to do.

It is extremely dificult to give somebody a fixed fee for a ‘design service’ as the amount of time requried in the design stage cannot really be quantified at the outset because of it’s nature – it may take multiple designs or options to come to a mutually agreeable design. Once the design has been agreed the time involved in the susbsequent stages are a little more quantifiable. When doing a fee proposal, I usually undertake to review the fees at the end of the first stage, if the design stage of the project has been very quick, I usually will drop the overal fees a % or 2.

Just with regrad to the ‘cartel’ comment – the competetion authority has recently reported that they are happy that there is sufficient competition between architects for the supply of services.

Hope this helps your understanding of the issues.

you seem to take it in your stride that the builder will charge more in Dublin for the same work, and yet seem outraged that an architect would behave the same way. Why wouldn’t they? overheads are higher in Dublin, labour more expensive. Believe it or not, Architecture is a business, not a charity. Personally I’d charge you 10% for a job in Dublin and 15% for a job in Meath – same work, same profit – profit being the bottom line in any business. Not worth my while otherwise. Tell you what, get a “back woods” architect to do it and pay him expenses for travelling to the big smoke.

Thanks for the replies.
Doc, I have a well advanced design which I came up with myself and have modelled in 3D. I’m no architect, but I appreciate good design, and the basic footprint of the house is very much dictated by the location, views, and access constraints, plus the open space rules. I know what i want very clearly. In fact, maybe TOO clearly. Some architects seem put off by the fact that I have produced as much as I have. One guy told me (in a rude 2 line email) that I don’t need an architect, just a draftsman – hehehe. I think he felt his ‘artistic integrity’ was undermined. 😀

The point I’m making is that there isn’t much issue with this design. I’m open to changes, and certain details aren’t yet included, but its not ‘from scratch’ and its not amorphous in concept.
And yet – the costings are ALL coming out around this 12.5% number!

Competition? Why do I keep getting this so called ‘survey’ of RIAI fees shoved under my nose to justify a fixed % quote? Its not being treated like ‘a survey’ but a proper scale of fees!

Maybe we need a Michael O’Leary in the architecture business?

Wearnicehats – I appreciate that Dublin is more expensive to live and work in. I don’t believe builders are always justified in upping their prices to the levels they do, but at least I can shop around with them and expect to not have a scale of fees trotted out. I have been quoted 1979 euro per sqM by Griffner Coillte for a timber frame house on my site. So already I know I can save on build costs.

But here’s a question for you.
How can an architect demand a percentage of the build cost to include the fittings? If I choose to put Granite worktops in my kitchen instead of formica – how do you justify the extra you will receive on a percentage fee basis?

PS. I might get an architect from outside Dublin yet. I have a friend who is an established architect in the UK and he is gobsmacked at these fees. He wants to immigrate. Says the most he’s ever seen from a residential project in the UK was 12K, and that was a big house.:cool:

@Meccano wrote:

I have a well advanced design which I came up with myself and have modelled in 3D. I’m no architect, but I appreciate good design, and the basic footprint of the house is very much dictated by the location, views, and access constraints, plus the open space rules. I know what i want very clearly. In fact, maybe TOO clearly. Some architects seem put off by the fact that I have produced as much as I have. One guy told me (in a rude 2 line email) that I don’t need an architect, just a draftsman – hehehe. I think he felt his ‘artistic integrity’ was undermined. 😀

why don’t you hand your layouts and 3d representations to a builder and leave him do a spec, price the job, do all the work (which isn’t much in your view) to get it planning, then build it off his own bat, unsupervised. see what you end up with, then you can begin to understand why architects charge the fees they do.

Meccano – I sense anger in your writing!

What your looking for is a private jet service at Ryanair prices!!!

Just going back to your last post, not all architects ‘demand’ a % of the fittings. Personally, I only charge a % on the building contract itself, i.e. what only the work the builder is doing. So, very often, the client supplies and arranges the kitchen, the floor finishes, sanitary fittings, etc. themselves to project so they do not form part of the contrcat so a % is not charged on those items.

Given your ‘rant’ here suspect you’ve been given the FO fee proposal.

I simply do not believe that your ‘friend’ in the UK would do the entire project – from start to finish – for 12K – I would suggest that is for a limited service. The RIBA (the UK architect body) also suggests that architects work on a % basis and it’s pretty much the same sort of fee scales.

I’d go along with sw101 – save all the money and do it yourself!

For 12K Mr. Grant would do two planning applications for you. :rolleyes:

Hmmmm….haven’t met a builder who could draw yet! 😀

I know there’s a lot of bull involved in getting planning etc. But is it 15% worth of bull?
What about the granite worktop question? Any ideas?

**Ooops, our posts crossed there.**

You sense anger, I sense defensiveness!

No I’m not angry, I’m just doing what people do these days – questioning things.

I’m a professional myself and we get no end of stick from the general public over what they see as bad value. Its in every walk of life. Accept it.

But I’m interested in this thing about the fittings etc not being included. A glimmer of hope on the horizon!

@Meccano wrote:

I have been quoted 1979 euro per sqM by Griffner Coillte for a timber frame house on my site. So already I know I can save on build costs.

Says the most he’s ever seen from a residential project in the UK was 12K, and that was a big house.:cool:

First of all. Did you look very far into the Griffner Collite option. Because their designs all have a similar look, and this may or may not match up with the design you have already worked out for yourself. They dont build traditional timber framed houses.
As for saving on build cost, I’d reconsider, they quoted 1979 per sq.m. You do relise that this only covers from timber frame up.
You will have to arrange and pay for groundwork, excavating, foundations design and pouring. This isn’t cheap. What does the 1.979 value amount to after this is taken into account.Where did you get you 2,400 figure,

As for your UK architect friend. Anyone who has bought a pint over in the UK will know that sterling makes anything look cheaper.

The % fee should be on the construction costs. I would check that it is. And 15% seems a little high for dublin. I’ve seen extensions at this rate, but for a house it should (or at least could be) be lower.

Griffner are not a ‘turnkey builder’ in respect that they do not do the design work. They expect you to get the planning permission and then provide them with the plans – they said nothing to me about limiting my design choices. They seem geared up to build anything you like – within reason I guess. Are you confusing them with one of the ‘post and beam’ companies, like Huff Haus?

Yes, they told me the ground works would be separate. Do you think they’ll cost 500 euro per sqM ? I doubt it.

(Edit: I just re-checked the Griffner figures. The quote was Structure Only 110 – 120 euro per sqFt. Fully fitted out – 160-180 euro per sqFt. Seems I over budgeted poor ole Griffner)

The 2400 figure has been quoted at me by several different architects! And I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it in an RIAI build cost guide (which I can’t find now).

The Society of Chartered Surveyors website quotes 1942 euro per sqM for an ‘Estate type’ detached house in Dublin (minimum spec), so I can well see 2400 per sqM being demanded for something higher spec and unique design. http://www.scs.ie/publication/pdf/homeownersguide2006.pdf

The last architect I spoke to quoted me 2750 euro per sqM as a build cost guideline!

This seems to be like the proverbial ‘length of a piece of string’.

Besides the uncertain build costs there is total lack of clarity over what the fee is actually based on, possible requirement for other professionals to be employed (structural engineer/surveyor/sustainable building consultant) – or not, as the case may be?? Granite counter-tops charged, or not? :confused:

Then there’s the warnings I’ve had from builders – that some architects will underestimate a build cost to get the contract, then blame the builder when it runs over budget (and consequentially increases their fee!).
Where is the constraint to keep strictly on budget? I guess most are honest – but there are more Mr.Grants out there no doubt.

Personally I’d be much more comfortable dealing with a fixed price contract. And it should be based on the NET SCSI guideline prices too. Hands off my expensive granite work tops!

Look, it’s very simple.

You find an architect who is willing to do one-off houses. Lots aren’t – myself included – because single home clients are, quite frankly, a total nightmare. Assuming you find one, go through the plans / 3D / whatever you have. If the Architect fancies the job then he will put forward a fee proposals for the work

Prior to this happening, you two will have to have agreed the scope of those works ie do you want a planning scheme, do you want construction drawings and no supervision, do you want full supervision. This can take several meetings and – get this – you will rarely be charged for this!!! Try getting a solicitor to do that.

When dealing with a um, ah, thorough client as yourself the fee proposal should be detailed and the scope of works even more so. If your scheme is in anyway complicated and if the Client is likely to quibble over money, a wise architect will include for both structural and quantity surveyors, for which you will be expected to pay.

With regard to the fee, we could shite on all day over this so just beat whatever you can out of the poor sod. You can also set out what you want it to cover – just the building shell or shell plus fittings etc. Bear in mind that what you pay for is what will be certified

WNH, even solicitors will give you one ‘free’ meeting before taking on a case. Often they backcharge the meeting once they have the biz. Most architects I’ve met so far have told me thats how they work too. I don’t see your point about serial free consultations. I do most of my correspondence by email anyhow.

I realise personal clients may be a pain in the ass – like me – but hey, thats the cost of doing business. I have to put up with it in my career too. No point complaining – its a fact of life. The Customer is King. Market forces etc etc….

I’m surprised to hear you say most architects won’t even take on private clients. Turning down business?? Seems to me the boom times have created a few smug and lazy people, in all walks of life.
I hear they’re over now……at least for property.
Will that lead to some attitude adjustment?

@Meccano wrote:

WNH, even solicitors will give you one ‘free’ meeting before taking on a case. Often they backcharge the meeting once they have the biz. Most architects I’ve met so far have told me thats how they work too. I don’t see your point about serial free consultations. I do most of my correspondence by email anyhow.

I realise personal clients may be a pain in the ass – like me – but hey, thats the cost of doing business. I have to put up with it in my career too. No point complaining – its a fact of life. The Customer is King. Market forces etc etc….

I’m surprised to hear you say most architects won’t even take on private clients. Turning down business?? Seems to me the boom times have created a few smug and lazy people, in all walks of life.
I hear they’re over now……at least for property.
Will that lead to some attitude adjustment?

no

@wearnicehats wrote:

no

😀

@Meccano wrote:

Griffner are not a ‘turnkey builder’ in respect that they do not do the design work. They expect you to get the planning permission and then provide them with the plans – they said nothing to me about limiting my design choices. They seem geared up to build anything you like – within reason I guess. Are you confusing them with one of the ‘post and beam’ companies, like Huff Haus?

Then there’s the warnings I’ve had from builders – that some architects will underestimate a build cost to get the contract, then blame the builder when it runs over budget (and consequentially increases their fee!).

As for Griffner, they are a turnkey builder, but you don’t have to take this option. How close to finished willl the 180/sq.ft get you, Will it still need to finished internally, how much more will you need to do?
I’m not confusing them with any other company, I’m reasonally familar with them and their technology. Single leaf construction, glulam beams. Board cladding or mesh render. I was out in their factory last year.
Have you looked at their website, if you do you will see that all their fouses look similar, they have a distinct austrian look to them, large overhangs, steep pitches and high roofs.

I’d speak to some builders, get quotes, I would of been aiming for the 2000/m.sq mark,

And some builders will say that the architect underestimated when they run over on costs. Take everything with a pinch od salt.