Dublin Trams
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Here is an interesting question –
How long did it take for the original Tramways to be constructed in the late nineteenth century? Just thinking that it couldn’t have taken as long back then (don’t forget the luas was proposed to be FINISHED by 1994 initially!)
So any takers? Not forgetting the old tram network was far more extensive – I think 10 lines or more (an historical note – the current no. 10 bus follows the old No. 10 tram route – Donnybrook to NCR!)
Please does anyone know????
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It probably didnt take as long to construct each route but its hardly comparable. The utility diversion that had to take place along the lines was quite amazing. Stuff was just thrown under the streets every which way, so this needed to be sorted out. Also they didnt build the likes of Taney Bridge etc when doing theirs!!
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Originally posted by niall murphy
It probably didnt take as long to construct each route but its hardly comparable.It was probably more complex as vast amounts of land had to be acquired compulsorily, each route requiring an act of parliment and this was all acheived by the private sector.
LUAS in contrast had a full disused rail line on one route and it is entirely a victim of its designers on the other. While being 1000% behind public transport I am 100% angry with whatLUAS has become. Three things stand out for me
1. The Tallaght route via the centre of the Naas Rd, what does this route service other than car lots?
2. The Calatrava bridge in Dundrum preceding the Macken St bridge, why did Dundrum require such an expensive bridge, does anyone have any pictures of the original bridge?
3. The behaviour of the contractors in particular at Harcourt St and the recent derailment. It is not as if this project was on time and on budget.
Three words, Good litigation Solicitors 😡
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Originally posted by Paul Clerkin
The Taney Bridge in Dundrum is not by Calatrava, though it may be slightly Calatravaesque although I don’t think so myself……It isn’t your traditional bridge and I’m sure it has a pricetag akin to a Calatrava when a less ‘Over-engineered’ solution would have been appropriate.
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Originally posted by Diaspora
It isn’t your traditional bridge and I’m sure it has a pricetag akin to a Calatrava when a less ‘Over-engineered’ solution would have been appropriate.
See we cannot please you. Sure here’s a less “over engineered solution,” – it just looks like the Matt Talbot bridge over the Liffey……
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A couple of answers to the above.
The original tram system was based on the earlier horse trams which were built from about 1871 on. The system consisted of many individual lines and the electrification of these started around 1896. It grew gradually over the years before being outclasseed in every sense by the growing bus market.
Jim Kilroy’s book Irish trams gives a very detailed accout of all this.
There were many objections to the electrification as people were concerned about the effects on the horses ( they thought they would be electricuted) and it also involved the digging up of some existing lines and the installation of the overheads ( the overheads were all based on using only poles. No building fixings were used)
Taney bridge cost about €9m to build and was designed by Roughan and O’Donovan engineers. One of the reasons for its shape was to allow it to be constructed simultaneously with a new road widening and junction reconstruction scheme at Taney Junction. The total span is about 180m. I’ve attached a picture of the old bridge which spanned about 8m !
I’d agree with the commments about HaArcourt Street. The general houskeeping by the contractors was disgraceful.
The recent derailment was an total non event. It happened during testing and in particular during a shunting movement. Irish Rail had three such de-railments the same week in their Inchicore depot. In railway terms its no worse than a flat tyre on a bus.
Cheers all,
JJ🙂
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Originally posted by 3KIC
SHOCK!
An Taisce consultant proposes “Yellow Pack” Architecture
SHOCK!
😉I have now moved away from An Taisce and I far from called for a yellow-pack solution, nor would the Matt Talbot bridge be appropriate as its biggest flaw is its low clearance, that prevents boats from docking close to the Custom House.
But given that everything comes back to the scarcity of resources there were better places to use the funds. Surely the Macken St bridge merited greater priority or even more logically an integrated system. Functional and clean would have cost a lot less and that was what I was suggesting, if you want yellow pack just commute the existing system there are no frills such as integrated ticketing or a rail connection to the airport.
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Line A serves a major industrial area with thousands of employees. Many people in tallaght work in these ‘parking lots’ off the naas road and currently have no way of getting there other than getting the poxy 56a to e.p mooney and walking the rest of the way.
It opens up an entirely different axis to that already served by dublin bus to tallaght, to travel the same route as existing bus services would be pointless. I can’t get to any of the areas served by line A by bus (save O’Connell Street.)
I had this discussion with you before Diaspora … which of the six major roads crossing at walkinstown roundabout would you close to facilitate luas? You replied that did line A not also deserve a taney bridge, which may be true, but where should it go after that, down the crumlin road ??? West dublin is riddled with traffic & more than most areas of the city, there is/was no scope for closing any of the major routes from same to town to facilitate luas.
… great pic of the taney bridge Paul
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Originally posted by Diaspora
It was probably more complex as vast amounts of land had to be acquired compulsorily, each route requiring an act of parliment and this was all acheived by the private sector.Not so. They were all built on public roads. Yes they needed an Act of Parliament, all that was then necessary was to pay for wayleave rights to the robber barons in Dublin Corporation, something which continued up until the mid 1960s despite there being no tramlines!
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What have the completion of the Taney Bridge and the Macken Street Bridge got to with each other any way?
One was built by the RPA, one is being built by Dublin City Council.
More relevant point would have been why not build Macken St Bridge before Blackhall Place (James Joyce) Bridge.
Can’t understand your logic here Diaspora – a €9 million spend for an architectural triumph of a bridge that can be seen for miles around is a lot better than a €6 million spend on some concrete span bridge. -
As JJ has already pointed out the main reason behind the choice of bridge type was so the very busy intersection could remain open as much as possible during construction.
The second reason was aesthetics and I think they should be praised for their choice not chastised. Roughan and O’Donovan are quite forward thinking in terms of taking aesthetics into account right form the word go and not just as an after thought. They won the first AAI award given for a bridge and make modern motorway driving a bit more interesting.
Engineers get a bad rap for when it come to design, sometimes rightly, but when they do design something like the Taney bridge they should be praised.
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Originally posted by ewanduffy
Not so. They were all built on public roads. Yes they needed an Act of Parliament, all that was then necessary was to pay for wayleave rights to the robber barons in Dublin Corporation, something which continued up until the mid 1960s despite there being no tramlines!
In many cases there were no cpo’s but in many cases there were, particularly where the roads weren’t wide enough to accomodate both tram and carriage seperately, hence the cpo of many a front garden as described by the united tramway case of 1907 that gave the phrase ‘injurious effection’ But your point is well made not all tram routes required wholesale cpo’s.
Originally posted by PeterFitzpatrick
which of the six major roads crossing at walkinstown roundabout would you close to facilitate luas? where should it go after that, down the crumlin road ???A routing via the KCR or Crumlin childrens Hospital would have served a much denser population base, and it is not a case of closing roads but rather adjusting the hierarchy of use to reflect a substantial investment (in the right place). .
Originally posted by Peter Fitzpatrick
West dublin is riddled with traffic & more than most areas of the city, there is/was no scope for closing any of the major routes from same to town to facilitate luas?So this area of Dublin is busier than the crossings at Hueston Station, Church St, Capel St and Gardiner St. Did you ever consider that the existing poor public transport where people live might have a lot to do with such high car dependency?
Originally posted by Peter Fitzpatrick
It opens up an entirely different axis to that already served by dublin bus to tallaght, to travel the same route as existing bus services would be pointless. I can’t get to any of the areas served by line A by bus (save O’Connell Street.)Deficiencies in the exisating Dublin Bus network are no excuse to send a rail link down the centre of a Dual Carriageway past multiple car lots, when other routes through moderately dense residential areas exist. What are the major employers on the Naas Rd??? Sisk employs 2500 but they’re mostly onsite I believe.
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The fact that there are ‘car lots’ filled with cars lining the Naas road suggests that people working in the area have no other means to get there.
The Red Cow, despite its current situation, is a good location for a Park & Ride in to the future. Crossing major junctions as luas enters the city centre is inevitable. The fact that the red cow is the busiest junction in Dublin, outlines the volume of traffic on the Naas road. It is five lanes heading westbound from the long mile junction, and cannot handle the volume of traffic at that.
Running luas by Crumlin Hospital or the KCR is a nice idea Diaspora but still involves closing key arteries in to the city centre, the crumlin road is too narrow, as is cromwellsfort, kimage road west, and kimmage road lower never mind how to handle Kimage Cross Roads or the Walkinstown Roundabout.
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Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
The fact that there are ‘car lots’ filled with cars lining the Naas road suggests that people working in the area have no other means to get there.I was more referring to to the large number of motor importers and distributors and jap import operations as well as distribution facilities such as BOC etc. None of which employ large numbers of commuters due to them being 24 hour operations.
Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
The Red Cow, despite its current situation, is a good location for a Park & Ride in to the future. Crossing major junctions as luas enters the city centre is inevitable. The fact that the red cow is the busiest junction in Dublin, outlines the volume of traffic on the Naas road. It is five lanes heading westbound from the long mile junction, and cannot handle the volume of traffic at that.The N7 is improved but surely the junction must rank alongside the worst in Ireland due to its existing traffic load. Park and Ride works well in places like Sallins and Rush but I’m not convinced that people will drive a short distance and park, but more likely is a scenario of this facility serving commuters from Carlow who will fill it by 0730.
Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
Running luas by Crumlin Hospital or the KCR is a nice idea Diaspora but still involves closing key arteries in to the city centre, the crumlin road is too narrow, as is cromwellsfort, kimage road west, and kimmage road lower never mind how to handle Kimage Cross Roads or the Walkinstown Roundabout.Classic LUAS the option that could be considered ‘the best of a bad lot’ is selected. What should have been done was one of two things, either push through a route via Drimnagh to Heuston/James’ Hospital on strategic grounds or admit that all routes considered were critically flawed and conclude that the route required at least a partial metro section. No loaf is better than a bad loaf, if it requires three loaves to solve the hunger later.
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In your opinion it’s critically flawed, it’s a light rail system not a metro, you’re not going to solve everything with one line. It serves Tallaght primarily which at the moment doesn’t even have an adequate qbc. You’ve outlined your disapproval at length so maybe now its time for us to shut up and wait and see it in action.
Cheers ! 😀
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Originally posted by Peter FitzPatrick
You’ve outlined your disapproval at length so maybe now its time for us to shut up and wait and see it in action.Cheers ! 😀
So a breakfast at the Red Cow in August is on, to view LUAS operating and count the number of 01-cw regs in the LUAS park & ride facility.
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Just comparing Luas with Dublin trams – in 1879 horse-drawn trams left Rathmines every three and a half minutes at peak times – albethey without 250+ bowler hats crammed on board – compared with an initial 5 mins for Luas.
And even earlier in 1867, it was served by an omnibus every 10 minutes.
There were also plans on the back of the success of the Underground in London to build a line underground from the city centre to Rathmines, with 3 stations on the route from the canal to the Temple Road area. It’s quite extraordinary the extent of the commuter-belt even then, and the tram numbers don’t even take into account the hoards of people who walked to work.There’s great potential in this area today for this walking and cycling routine to be replicated with the eventual sell-off of Portobello Barracks. High density housing here, a mere 20 minutes walk from Dame St or 10 to Stephen’s Green would be a major boost in getting people back into/near the city, not to mention the knock-on improvement of the dingy Rathmines Road – and is in direct state control.
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Yesterday (Sun 18/Apr/04 ) saw the first intensive testing in the city centre – for a couple of hours in the morning they were running a replica of a full service from Sandyford right through to Stephens Green, with trams departing every 5 to 7 minutes in both directions.
I’ll have some fresh pictures on my site tomorrow.
This followed on from the resurfacing of Harcourt Street finally being completed, meaning that cars and trams could be seperated, thus testing could take place without traffic having to be halted.
There was one blip during the testing, when a 48A bus stalled and couldn’t be restarted at the bottom of Harcourt street, it blocked all the traffic, and they were forced to let the cars through onto the tracks. Luckily the bus got going again after 12 minutes, but it’s pointed out a potential problem for the future.
Gabriel
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From BBC News…..
Fewer passengers use Sheffield’s Supertrams than expected
Plans for more light rail systems in UK towns could be at risk because existing ones are failing to attract passengers and investment, a report has warned.
The National Audit Office (NAO) said some systems were losing money, did little to cut traffic and did not link to other transport modes.It said the losses discouraged private firms from investing in new systems.
Transport Secretary Alistair Darling said he would look at other options if trams did not provide value for money.
Major barriers
Seven light rail – or tram – systems have been built since 1980 and another 12 are being developed, with £1bn of government investment.
However, major barriers were preventing further expansion, the government spending watchdog warned.
The NAO report cited the example of the Sheffield Supertram – in operation since 1994 – which was expected to raise £80m on privatisation, but in fact attracted only £1m.
If costs are going to carry on doubling then any government is quite right to say ‘well, let’s have a look at it and let’s see if there aren’t other alternatives’
Alistair Darling
Passenger numbers were 45% below expectation on the South Yorkshire line, while numbers on the Midland Metro were 38% down, the NAO said.
The Midland Metro, Manchester Metrolink, Croydon Tramlink and Tyne and Wear Metro were all running at a loss, with Midland Metro losing £11.4m a year.
Sir John Bourn, head of the NAO, said: “Systems need to be better integrated with other modes of transport to attract more passengers and help to reduce urban congestion.
“If more systems are to secure private sector investment, construction costs must be brought down and placed on a sound financial footing.”
Costs
Mr Darling told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme tram usage had increased by 86% between 1997 and 2003, but that the government was taking a tough line on future funding.
“One of my big concerns is that the costs of these new schemes have doubled in some cases,” Mr Darling said.
“If costs are going to carry on doubling then any government is quite right to say ‘well, let’s have a look at it and let’s see if there aren’t other alternatives’.
“If we are going to build these things then we have to make sure that we get value for money from them.”
‘Hands off’
Commons public accounts committee chairman and Conservative MP Edward Leigh said the government has not been active enough in implementing tram systems.
A new tram system for Liverpool is under discussion
“The Department of Transport has taken a hands-off approach compared to our continental competitors.
“The department has allowed tram systems to be built that have no through ticketing arrangements, unco-ordinated timetables, and trams have not been given priority over road traffic,” he said.
Conservative transport spokesman Damian Green said: “The Department for Transport has talked about 25 new light rail lines but the report makes it clear that it has no strategy for achieving this growth.”
But a spokesman for the Passenger Transport Executive (PTE) group said the NAO report had shown how light rail “can be delivered faster, better, cheaper”.
Put that in yer pipe and smoke it!!!!
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Came home on a bus yesterday that broke down – just about 5 yards past the choke spot on Harcourt Road where the Luas crosses it.
The outbound traffic was passing with great difficulty, some using the Luas lines to get by, as we waited.
Absolutely amazed to see an outbound Luas creep up and barely pass us by, – if it had ben inbound it would have unable to pass. Even more amazed at the reaction of the delayed traffic, hooting and trying to beat the Luas. Most of them probably had no idea what was causing the problem, or how close they came to whacking into the Luas.
Two further thoughts – the Luas colour scheme renders it fairly invisible, on a dull day it seems to blend back into the buildingscape. From a safety point of view this cannot be ideal.
Also the warning signal from the Luas is pretty weak, especially on a turning curve as it was here, you may well not hear it over traffic noise.For the record the bus eventually go going, passed another broken down bus and after a long delay we all got swopped over to another bus. One hour to do two miles. There was a second Luas inbound at the new (and much more ugly) bridge at Ranelagh.
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Did anyone notice this very local addition to the Luas overhead wires on Abbey Street:
Last weekend, two pairs of runners dangled above the street, tied to the wires – either junkie skangers marking their territory, or someone’s idea of a joke. I don’t know if they’re still there (near the Liffey Street junction), and I didn’t have a camera. Sorry! -
Luas fares and timetables announced (from RTE)
14 May 2004 18:09
The company running Dublin’s new Luas light rail system, Connex Transport, has announced details of fares and timetables.
The first route to open will be the Green Line, from Sandyford to Stephen’s Green. Services will begin from the end of June.
Connex said the single fare from Sandyford to the city centre will be €2, and €3.80 for a return fare. The minimum fare from stop to stop will be €1.30 and 80 cent for a child.
The Red Line from Tallaght to Connolly Station will open in August. -
compares well to the Paris metro system where a “carnet” of 10 tickets cost 10euro. each ticket is valid for 1journey on the metro regardless of distance travelled or how many changes one makes. of course it costs more to go outside the metro area on suburban rail, but obviously we beat them here too with a 10euro single fare to newbridge for example on an infrequent service without a clockface timetable. Paris to Disneyland is probably the same distance but costs 6euro and the service is every 10mins on RER, even if off peak the trains are not very busy.
Did i say Luas compares favourably…………………. The fact that it looks like a per stop based ticketing system is a farce. what we get here is a farce. seems to me like we’re still learning from the stunning British example when we really should be learning from pathetic French and German examples…..
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