Dublin Airport Metro to have unconnected terminus?
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London has a two gauge system for historical reasons (owing to first phase of development in the 19th century and then second phase in 20th century). Train carriages are different sizs too owing to different tunnel diameters
@Thomond Park wrote:
It is very interesting that in the UK that services have been franchised but the track retained in the hands of a single operator.
And this barely even functions given their rail safety record. Imagine it with different operators!
@PDLL wrote:
London
Thanks, PDLL I never knew that, and I lived there for 8 years:o Which ones are different?
To thebest of my memory the Metropolitan Line has a different gauge to others (I think there is one other line that has same gauge as M Line). Have exact details in a book at home so will check later.
I’d be surprised if it was the Metropolitan, as that shares track with the Circle and Hammersmith+City lines, and those two lines also share track with the District. My guesses would be the Waterloo+City or the East London line, which are both fairly separate to the rest of the system.
Ok, P11’s position on gauge was based on the notion of traditional heavy rail for the metro (NY, Munich, Berlin, London etc.) but now that the RPA have announced that the metro will actually be light rail like this, the gauge issue is no longer relevant and P11 hae no objection to te 1435mm european (Luas) gauge.
The reen Line was never supposed to be re-gauged but was laid with a wider loading gauge (swept path clearance) and with sleepers on ballast to allow 1435mm heavy rail metro trains to use it. This will not now happen. The metro will be light rail, low floor high capacity units (90m platforms=5/6 cars sets, more than adequate for Dublin for many years).
Dublin Metro North Open Days:
* Tuesday, March 28th 2006:
o Ballymun Civic Centre, Main Street, Ballymun, Dublin 11
* Thursday, March 30th 2006:
o Fingal County Hall, Main Street, Swords, County Dublin
* Monday, April 3rd 2006:
o Dublin City Council Offices, Wood Quay, Dublin 8
* Wednesday, April 5th 2006:
o Regency Hotel, Swords Road, Dublin 9
* Friday, April 7th 2006:
o Finglas Civic Office, Mellowes Road, Finglas, Dublin 11
* Monday, April 10th 2006:
o Airport Great Southern Hotel, Dublin AirportNo mention of times. ref: rpa.ie
The draft airport development plan was released last week.
For those of you with broadband you can look at it here :
To sumarise the 2 terminal is to be built as an addon to the first. Any future third / fourth terminal is to be placed to the west. This completly at odds with the north south alignment of the metro. Frankly the development plan is a joke with the metro so aligned, or vice versa.
Adding a further point to thomond park’s earlier post , previously when the second terminal was put to tender ten parties expressed an interest. Among them was ryanair who estimated the build at 125 million. Now the dublin airport wants to spend 1200 million . WHATS GOING ON ? ?? i feel like i am taking carzy pills.
With this is mind it is crucial that everyone put a submission into the rpa , whatever you feelings.
My point of view is basically that of the platform11.org. there is already a north south heavy rail line . dublin now needs an east west rail line. The interconnector allow for so much more than a connection between swords and the city.
Specifically it allows for all the lines into dublin to increase the number of trains per hour , because in one single swoop all the congestion around connolly is gone. it allows for a dart(metro) service to run from greystones to dunboyne, and a metro to run from balbriggan/howth through to clondalkin.Thats right 1 tunnel makes 2 metro lines possible !!!! The good people of swords deserve some relief too though, and a luas is justified , but spending the whole kitty (4/5billion) on a half metro route (the carriages are half capacity / and the route runs through half the city) is just wanton waste. Furthermore the port tunnel is not NOT going be used anything near capacity. A very successful direct bus connection operates in the not so backward Boston, and would complement the luas just perfectly. With a bus lane on the northern quay between busaras and the point. A direct point to point link <13 minutes !! Ha. Remember Seamus Brennan said they were trying to decide between a direct like and having lots of stops along the way well we can have both !!
Stop the madness and put in a submission.
Please Please put in a submission info@rpa.ie
Unfortunately, it’s not clear how the interconnector is going to be used to its capacity either. The current plans are for about 12 trains an hour in each direction. I’d be surprised if they manage this, given the presence of Arrow and Enterprise trains along the northern DART line, but those are apparently the plans.
The tunnel will, I believe, be signalled to allow for 16 trains per hour in each direction. So already, the plans are to use the tunnel to only 75% of its capacity.
However, the tunnel qua tunnel should be capable of carrying a lot more trains than 16 per hour. Everybody will have examples of cities where there are tunnels which carry a lot more than that. Munich, for example runs a steady 30 trains per hour in each direction all day in their main East-West tunnel. That is about 1,000 trains per day.
If Munich could be taken as an example of a city which uses its tunnel to its capacity, we then could be taken as an example of a city which plans to use the interconnector at well below 50% of its capacity. And if the promised 12 trains becomes a more realistic 10 trains, we’d actually be planning to use it at about 33% of its capacity.
In the absence of any indication of where more trains are going to come from, it remains questionable whether the interconnector should be built if it will be running so far short of its capacity.
There is a presumption in your calculations that everything is fixed; schemes such as Adamstown will add 5,000 units which if successfully replicated will provide the capacity.
The alternative is simple do nothing and forget about expanding capacity on all lines as:
Heuston is already close to exceeding its Health & Safety limits of 6,400 per hour at peak times.
Watch DART services continue at 60% of their 1984 frequency
Divert all Maynooth trains to Docklands which is miles from anywhere
Continue Northern and Arklow services at current levels
Divert all Navan line trains to Docklands and kill the service before it gets going.@Bill McH wrote:
In the absence of any indication of where more trains are going to come from, it remains questionable whether the interconnector should be built if it will be running so far short of its capacity.
Yes good points. i am with you some of the way.
I would say 2 things in reply
1. i would repeat again that the interconnector provides for so much more than just one half metro bit of line stuck there.
2. your queries regarding the tunnel are most apt. I am pretty sure that these are issue arising from others parts of the network. I would suggest that the problems with the other parts of the network are slight and could be rectified in time and that long term the interconnector allows for as much growth as dublin wants and needs.
Specifically on the northern line only the city bound track veers left towards the docklands. The outbounds line is a level crossing. There is space to rectify this and fully segrate in the future.
The suggested northern line / airport rail link was never considered as a fully segregated overpass junction , any figures of capacity on that line are not as high as they could be, not by half.
Reorganising the dart to and from howth would free up more space.creating a shuttle service between howth and the howth junction removes more trains crossing tracks.What i am trying to get at is that the layout allows for the system to be improved over time. There is only so much money in the kitty and we should try to get the most for our money. The interconnector doesn’t stop a metro being built when the numbers are there to justify it. With the highest number carried on the green line in one day at 90,000 and metro service being able to provide up to that number per hour , it will be some decades before any new tunnel in dublin is being used to it’s full potential.
But the interconnector improves ALL the lines, and joins up everything that has been built in the city , and eveyrthing that the dto would like us to build in the future.The metro should not be the next step.
Even the ministry for finance has scratched it’s head ; the current proposal won’t even begin to pay for itself till all the other luas lines (now dropped) are built. It is the horse before the cart.
Even if you are against the interconnector , 4/5 billion would build a lot of tram tracks , and dublin in a very low density city .
@Thomond Park wrote:
There is a presumption in your calculations that everything is fixed]
“Do nothing” is not the only alternative. An alternative is to figure out some way of using it to its fullest extent, and then to build it.
One solution would be to build some kind of holding station in the city centre – under Pearse Square perhaps – and add a couple of extra platforms at Pearse Station. This removes the restriction on trains from the West of the city caused by the shortage of slots on the northern DART line (arrow/Enterprise getting in the way, etc.) This removes the 12 train per hour limit – no reason at all that there couldn’t be 20-30 trains per hour between Pearse and Heuston (and beyond), if the signalling could be introduced to allow that.
My own view is that it is a pity that the project is not being used to facilitate a rapid rail link between populous locations like Tallaght and the city centre – that would be scuppered by the MetroWest project.
@a boyle wrote:
I am pretty sure that these are issue arising from others parts of the network. I would suggest that the problems with the other parts of the network are slight and could be rectified in time and that long term the interconnector allows for as much growth as dublin wants and needs.
As you correctly point out, the capacity of the interconnector is being dictated to an extent by the capacity of the northern DART line. (There will be no capacity problem on the Kildare line when it is 4-tracked). You’re also correct to say that this capacity problem can be rectified in time. In the case of the Northern Line, I’m told it would be expensive to do it but that it could be done some day. My query would be, why wait until that happens before using the interconnector to its full capacity?
The interconnector was conceived as a central spine under the densist parts of the city; there is nothing to prevent future spurs being built off it to places such as Tallaght or routing a spur from the Maynooth line through the Phoenix park tunnel and then underground to connect at Heuston with this tunnel.
Dublin is in a difficult position is that it can provide a certain population base to justify one or two short underground lines but lacks the population to justify an extensive network like one would expect in Paris or Berlin
Dublin metro system to run via Ballymun and Phibsboro
19/10/2006 – 12:09:59Minister for Transport Martin Cullen has announced the route chosen for the proposed metro line linking Dublin Airport with the city centre.
Three alternatives had been put forward as part of a public consultation process.
The chosen one will see the metro system run from Swords through Dublin Airport, via Ballymun and Phibsboro and on to St Stephen’s Green.
Mr Cullen says the route will service 20,000 people every hour, with trains running every 90 seconds.
The total journey time will be 17 minutes.
The metro is expected to take around 40,000 cars off the streets of the city centre every day when it is operational in 2012.
A bit more detail…
Airport metro to take in Drumcondra, Ballymun
By David Labanyi Last updated: 19-10-06, 11:54From 2012 passengers arriving in Dublin Airport will be able to take a Metro into the centre of Dublin with a 17 minute journey time, under a plan published today.
The Metro North, linking Stephen’s Green with Lissenhall, north of Swords, will have 15 stops and will be able to carry 20,000 passengers an hour. The Minister for Transport Martin Cullen said trains will run every four minutes at peak time and can increase to one every 90 seconds if required.
It is anticipated that the 17km line North Metro will carry up to 34 million passengers annually from St Stephen’s Green to Dublin Airport and Swords.
The decision on the routes follows a detailed public consultation process which started with the outlining of four possible options.
Following more than 2,000 submissions, the route chosen by the Railway Procurement Agency is an amalgam of two options.
The metro will travel under the Liffey to serve O’Connell St, the Mater Hospital, Dublin City University, Griffith Avenue, Ballymun, the airport and on through Swords to Lissenhall.
Half of the line will be underground while the other half will run on street level separated from traffic.
Mr Cullen said: “Metro will offer a new travel experience for business and leisure commuters in speed, ease and comfort. With the Luas, it will undoubtedly compound this excellent start in transforming the capital’s public transport system.”
The project is part of the Government’s €34 billion Transport 21 investment programme.
The Drumcondra stop will serve the 82,000-seater Croke Park while DCU’s 10,000 students will also have their own Metro station.
The RPA said that Dublin City Council requested a stop at Parnell Square East to serve the north inner city, and it is seeking further public consultation on this.
The route includes several key interchanges with rail and bus services including a key connection with the Maynooth suburban rail at Drumcondra.
The project will have more than 2,000 park and ride spaces and is projected to cut road journeys by 100 million kilometres per year.
Mr Cullen added: “Metro North is not just an airport link. It is an important commuter link for the communities and the institutions of north Dublin city and county.
“By developing Metro North and Metro West, by extending the Luas network, by providing greater capacity on the DART and suburban rail network and by increasing significantly bus capacity, the annual number of public transport passenger journeys in Dublin will almost double.
The next step in the Metro project will involve work on progressing the design of the route and stations and the preparation of a Railway Order application by the RPA.
Neither an approximate cost or details of the cost benefit analysis have yet been released, with the Minister for Transport saying to reveal such information would undermine the Government’s negotiating position when contracts are issued.
Mr Cullen said the project would be funded by a Public Private Partnership to ensure best value for money for the Exchequer.
As part of the project a terminus will be built under Stephen’s Green. Because the Luas Green line and the Metro will not be linked, passengers will use this terminus to change trains. This terminus will also accommodate passengers on the rail interconnector.
RPA chairman Padraic White said there was a 50-person project team including international experts with experience in major transport projects like the Channel Tunnel, the Hong Kong underground, Oporto Metro, Heathrow Airport’s Terminal 5 and Munich’s S-Bahn.
I hope the design of the underground section for the Metro is a little more inspired than the drab features of London’s Jubilee Line extension. I know the Jubilee Line extension is highly regarded in terms of it’s design, most notably the Canary Wharf Station, but the rest of it is mostly more of the same un-inspired, un-engaging grayness that typifies the rest of the London Underground’s sub-surface network
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MetroNorth.gif
Swords, Airport, Drumcondra, Griffith Ave, O’Connell St., Stephens Green – all suit me,
Welcome to the 21st Century. Now if they could build it as quickly and cheaply as the Spanish, 24 hour style.
@The Denouncer wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MetroNorth.gif
Swords, Airport, Drumcondra, Griffith Ave, O’Connell St., Stephens Green – all suit me,
Welcome to the 21st Century. Now if they could build it as quickly and cheaply as the Spanish, 24 hour style.
thats all well and good, metro EVENTUALLY arriving but do you not think that a) Cullen wont publish the cost-benefit analysis which means he is hiding something and b) the fact that it wont be ready until 2012 , 6 years waiting is utterly utterly ridiculous
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